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#239549 - 04/05/01 01:24 PM Decoys...Suggestions
Redmist Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1
Loc: Merritt, NC, USA
I have a question for you pros...I've been raiding my kids closet for old Disney stuffed animals, finally came across thumper. I've been attaching a 6 pound test fishing line to it, adding a little movement while calling. Am I wasting my time? I've had varied success, occasionally having a raptor dive bomb it in the process. Do you all add a scent to the decoy, or do you even bother with one? I was thinking of adding some rabbit scat. I'm looking to add some technique here, I have a feeling the coyotes are getting wise to me. Thanks in advance.

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#239550 - 04/05/01 02:02 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Anonymous
Unregistered


Redmist,
I not a pro but I'll give you my opinion anyways.
I have used a few diffrent decoys.I have a flambeau rabbit deacoy I bought at bass pro last week I set it out a few times but I seem to just feel exposed.I you walk out to set up a decoy where the yotes can see it they can see you doing it.I hunt alot of open wheat fields where we sneek in along the fence lines to get into position.I feel like I blow my cover setting out a decoy.
Another decoy I used was a Walker Coondog pup.When I'd set up to call he'd just wander around this is the best decoy I've used so far,It sets itself out and it moves alot.

Later,
Jbrad

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#239551 - 04/05/01 05:57 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Randy Buker Offline
Retired PM Staff

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 11
Loc: Parkers Prairie, Minnesota
I've got what is the best coyote decoy. It's a miniature wiener dog. Like the pup listed above, they set them selves out, walk on their to the stand and back so your hands are free to carry dead coyotes back to the truck. And, let me tell you, those coyotes see those wiener dogs and figure lunch is served. It works diferently than the bigger coyote dogs that some folks use. The coyotes strictly see these things as lunch!

I'm telling you, if you want to use the best decoy that you can, get yourself an itty bitty dog.

Randy

------------------
Hunting the Red fox
http:.//www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/5460

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#239552 - 04/05/01 06:01 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Bruce A. Kennedy Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 89
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Hey Randy, what happens if you miss the shot?

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#239553 - 04/05/01 06:31 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
UtahTrapper Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 8
Loc: Highland Utah
I'm right with Randy on this one. We've both used dachshund's for hunting coyotes and both have had great results with them (Not trying to speak for you Randy). Mine is a purebred hunting dachshund that weighs about 16lbs, over-weight. I originally had him for denning badgers but a fight with a badger broke his shoulder and I didn't want to put him at risk of breaking it again and then having to put him through intensive surgery(What the vet warned could happen). He is a great decoy dog for fur harvesting. Unlike curs that will intimidate most younger coyotes, dachshunds bring in all coyotes. When my dog spots a coyote he starts barking and gets real worked up, gets those coyotes to slow down once they're in close and give a lot of opportunities for shots. Since I've been using him I've had shots on coyotes at 15 yards.

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#239554 - 04/05/01 08:00 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Randy Buker Offline
Retired PM Staff

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 11
Loc: Parkers Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah Bruce, it's either shoot straight or get up and yell at the coyote. But, in the vast majority of cases, as soon as the gun goes off, if you miss, that coyote decides that wiener dog is tougher than he is and sails out of there.

UtahTrapper,

Thanks for turning me onto this decoy thing. And thanks for advising me of how they respond to the dog.

I've got to tell you a story about my favorite coyotes decoyed in with the dog.

A buddy and I were calling behind a butte in Western North Dakota. Almost right away we spotted a pair of coyotes coming in from about a half mile out. THey came pretty good and steady and went into a dip in the landscape at which point we both raised our rifles. They were about 175 yards out at that point. When they came out of the dip, they noticed the dog out walking around in the snow. They lit their afterburners and the dog saw them and sat up and barked. They were coming in about as fast as a coyote can come in. At about a hundred yards, my buddy and I started yelling our heads off trying to get them to stop. They slammed on their brakes at about sixty yards and he and I shot at exactly the same time. Couldn't even hear the other gun go off. He took the one on his side and I took the one on my side. They both went down at the same moment. My wiener dog went out and roughed them both up.

Man, there were high fives everywhere. Lots of back slapping and carrying on. We even disregarded the third one that was coming from a different direction. We were so pumped that we could have gone home right there and been happy. It was one pretty picture. But, we didn't go home, we went on to call in eight more coyotes that day. Man, that dog is the BEST decoy.

Thought you'd enjoy that story.

later
Randy

------------------
Hunting the Red fox
http:.//www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/5460

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#239555 - 04/05/01 08:38 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
UtahTrapper Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 8
Loc: Highland Utah
Randy,

Thats a great story. I'm glad the dogs are working for you! They're the best decoy I've ever used too.

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#239556 - 04/07/01 09:22 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Wiley E Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Kadoka, S.D.
Randy and UT, just a word of caution. You are right these small dogs will work fine and are much less apt to run coyotes off during prime fur season. Once these small dogs get a little confidence built up they will venture further and further. Every time they are about to get into trouble, you kill their trouble.

Some day you may not be in a position to shoot and you will have to watch some adult coyotes stretch your small dog out like a rug. Believe me the right kind of aggressive coyotes can and will get it done in short order. I once worked a complaint where I thought I spotted 4 half grown pups and 1 adult coyote. I called them up and they were all adults. This was in Sept. They hit my 60 lb. aggressive Mnt. cur with a fury. I couldn't shoot because it was continous motion. I watched helplessly as they cut his legs, sport sack, and ears. I finally had a blur of coyote fur to the side that I shot into. I ended up killing either 4 out of 5 or 5 out of 6. I never found them all due to a bad placed shot on a running coyote. Your small dogs would have been dead in that situation. I have had friends loose small dogs also.

If you consider your dogs disposable, you will enjoy hunting with them. If you consider them pets, I would think how well you like your dog. You will never have the right dogs for every situation. Wiley E

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#239557 - 04/07/01 09:28 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wiley I just have to ask, how far away from you were they when they hit your dog?

Reason I am asking is that while I realize that you were after the coyotes my first inclination would have been to shoot over or near them .

Would this have broken up the fight? And perhaps still allowed you to take one or two as they moved back.

I am just curious because I am thinking about taking my female Australian shepard out with me soon.
I have been trying to envision how I could help her defend herself in a tight and am trying to get my game plan down.

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#239558 - 04/08/01 12:00 AM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Redmist Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1
Loc: Merritt, NC, USA
Thanks guys for the responses and ideas. I actually do have a small wiener dog, named "Vinnie". I tried to include him in a hunt as you all mentioned, but as I was walking out the door I was jumped. Being jumped while armed isn't usually a problem, but it was by a very angry latina sporting a kitchen knife. The next day I attempted to do the same with my kids pet rabbit..."Bubbles"...but again I faced an angry 17 year old armed with a very hot curling iron. I appreciate all the ideas and will someday, hopefully; be home alone...heh heh.

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#239559 - 04/08/01 10:28 AM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Wiley E Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Kadoka, S.D.
Craig, This whole thing occurred at about 100 yards. I want to take you back to my thought process at the time so this will make more sense to you. Your reaction was correct but there is more to it.

This coyote reaction to a dog was the exception not the rule. Usually they will chase and circle and bark and do what coyotes do. This was all out coyote warfare and it happened so quick it caught me off gaurd. The next "usually" that did not occur here is that "usually", even when the coyotes hit the dog, they will jump back and allow you a shot. I kept waiting for this to happen. It never did.

The final thing that comes into play here is that these coyotes were killing on a band of sheep. I desperately needed as many of these coyotes as I could get to shut down this killing complaint.

So all of them hitting the dog, all of them continually in motion, and that I didn't want to waste a shot all played a role in my hesitation. I certainly thought about shooting near them to scare them but I kept expecting one to stand clear any second. It never happened. That is "typically" what happens and I kept waiting for it to happen with this sick feeling in my stomach watching them hammer him like that. If I had to do it over, I probably wouldn't change anything as this is such an extreme case of coyote behavior for this area with my dog.

Your aussie would work great for most situations if you had full control of your dog with whistle commands. The dog has to be smart enough to stay out of trouble but aggressive enough to almost get into trouble. That combination is hard to find but necessary for the fur season. The aggression in the dog is what gets the coyotes wound up and "locked in". If the dog is too aggressive, he / she will run younger coyotes off. If the dog is too timid he / she won't get the adults stirred up enough and "locked in".

If you can control your dog with whistle commands and bring your dog back before the dog runs the young coyotes off you have a better chance of controlling the situation. You can do one of two things. You can either make the dog lay down out there which usually makes the coyote focus on the dog while you stalk and shoot the coyote. The other thing you can do is to send the dog over the hill behind you. Out of curiousity, the young coyote may follow the dog enough to allow you a shot. If you have an aggressive but robotic stock dog, you may have the best of all worlds that could work year round.

The last thing I want to add is that this decoy dog thing has left a lot of recreational hunters dissapointed. The reason is that you seldom have the right dog / dogs for every situation. The decoy dog thing is more of an ADC tool that is used during the denning and territorial time of year while working with aggressive adult stock killing coyotes. The small dogs will work year round but they must be considered almost disposable. A good stock dog is usually too timid and will not add that much to the calling experience. J-H and others that use aggressive dogs during the fur season end up staking them down so they don't run the timid coyotes off. This can work quite well as it takes the focus off you for timid coyotes. It also puts the shooting where you want it. I don't know how much it adds to the recreational fur harvest especially with timid coyotes but the dogs are darn sure entertaining as heck.

The primary reason for a decoy dog is takes the attention off you and builds agression in the coyotes towards your dog. It's this aggression that allows you to shoot more multiple coyotes. You almost have to let the dog / coyote game continue for awhile to get the coyote's minds "locked in" to the dog. Once they are "locked in" then you can start shooting and they will be less affected by the shots. Wiley E



[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 04-08-2001).]

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#239560 - 04/08/01 05:42 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Randy Buker Offline
Retired PM Staff

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 11
Loc: Parkers Prairie, Minnesota
Wiley E.

Thanks for your input. Utahtrapper and I have discussed this very issue. I don't consider my wiener dog indisposable. So, here is what I do when I am using my dog.

In North Dakota, it's legal to use two way radios to stay in contact with your hunting partner. My buddy and I have our headphones on and the rule is that we each call it when we are able to see the dog. (and, I'm a professional dog trainer so the dog is very trained to come when called or whistled). When the dog wanders over to my buddy, he simply tells me "i've got the dog." From that point on, he's calling the shots. If he can't see the dog, he tells me. If I can't see him either, the stand is over and we call the dog in.

When I'm hunting, my main concern is not killing coyotes but rather to have a good time. It wouldn't be a very good time to have my dog become lunch for a coyote. So, we call off the ocasional stand when we can't see the dog.

On the other hand, if we get coyotes that come in too hard, we don't let them close the distance too far before we begin to shout to stop them. And, in the rare event of a really aggressive coyote, (this has happend once) we both get up off the ground and charge the coyote yelling.

I never let my dog range out more than forty yards or so and the stands we make are in WIDE OPEN country so there is almost zero chance of a coyote sneaking in on us before we see it.

As a safety feature, I don't hunt with the dog at night. Too great of a chance of a coyote sneaking in without being seen. Another reason is those darned owls at night. I've had many of them come swinging in on me and I won't risk one of them hitting my dog either.

When I'm using my dog as a decoy, I honestly don't believe the coyote sees him as a dog. He sees him as a small critter that he can eat. I've hunted with John-Henry and have seen how the coyotes react to a real dog. They come in all fluffed up and pissed off. When they come in for this wiener dog, they come in with their salivary glads working. It's a hoot to watch.

I realize that there may come a day when all my best laid plans for my dog's safety fall apart. But, it's kind of like driving out to North Dakota hunting. I may have an accident one day but I'm not going to stop because there is a small amount of risk.

I hope that clears up some of those issues for those who have been considering using the wife's dog for "bait." I definately wouldn't take a dog out there that you couldn't control. And, i wouldn't hunt in areas where you don't have a full field of view in all directions for a long ways. (I don't use my dog here in Minnesota for that very reason.)

But, Wiley E. Thanks for bringing that up so I could clarify.

Randy

------------------
Hunting the Red fox
http:.//www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/5460

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#239561 - 04/08/01 06:55 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
John69 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 234
Loc: Topeka, Ks. USA
Come on guys, is it so important to harvest a coyote that using your pet need to be employed? What ever happened to the ol' fashion way? Sneak in to your stand, sit down, dig out that strip of corn leaf, place it between your thumbs, blow out a squeak or three, and wait for the critter to come into range, then bust em'.
What the devil is all this nonsense bout'decoys, scentblockers, ghillie suits rabbit screamers, howlers, on and on and on.
Am I missing out on somthing or am I still hunting in the past?
Ya'all have a nice day, and a great summer.

John

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#239562 - 04/09/01 09:48 AM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
Locator Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 98
Loc: MI.
John,
Let up on these guys would you? They are supplying reasonable and credible advice on "what to" situations. Common sense will tell you that not all hunting situations will be typical. I've run into call shy easterns that WILL NOT come into a call. I'm thinking you have too. Whats wrong with entertaining the idea of giving the critter something he has never seen before. Your not living in the past John but, you are closing your thoughts to an adventure.
Example- I realize this is a different scenario but here goes.- Take the Pro BAss master that just throws everything he has at the (Big Ones)and cant get any hits.The Fish
are looking for something different-out of the ordinary. Listen to the pros and see if they dont dream something up new to throw.
Locator

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#239563 - 04/09/01 07:03 PM Re: Decoys...Suggestions
UtahTrapper Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 8
Loc: Highland Utah
Wiley E-

I've had a coyote get on top of my dachshund once before and I was lucky enough to get a shot off and kill the coyote (Close range) before he could do any serious damage to my dog. When I first started using my dachshund I had him on a 6' leash and put the loop of the leash around my ankle so when a coyote was coming in he couldn't get more than 6' from me. I am no longer using the leash but I don't let him get more than 20' from me. He's on command to sit on front of me, I've even had him walk back to me cowering when a coyote gets in close and is acting aggressive. I try to stop most coyotes at about 50 yards for a shot though. Thanks for the heads up.

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