Help With This Scenario (Sorta long)

ScottD

New member
Seems like the coyotes in my area really make a nuisance of themselves this time of year. And ranchers and land managers suddenly get concerned about calves, fawn crops, and the like. Since I do some private predator control work in my area, I'll usually (eventually) get contacted.

Here's the situation, though: The "evolution" of the solution to the coyote problem takes about 4 stages, including the one that involves me. First, the rancher/foreman/manager shoots at any odd coyote he might happen to see. But that's a common occurence, and I think even the coyotes come to expect that. Then, the next stage is the guy with the gazillion-candle powered spotlight...white...that "shines" the pastures, shooting at targets of opportunity. The coons, possums, and the like take a beating, but you can imagine the results on the coyotes. Next, since everyone knows at least one bona-fide, sho' nuff varmint hunter, comes the guy with the latest electronic call and a boxful of tapes sold to him by a clerk at the local Wal-Mart who hasn't a clue as to their effectiveness, only that "we've sure sold a lot of them". This guy might even kill a coyote or two, but for sure he lets them all hear a bunch of calls.

Problem still exists, as you might imagine. Finally, a casual comment at the coffee shop or barber shop usually turns up someone who knows me. And I'll get contacted.

NOW, here's my question: How would you guys hunt these coyotes? I usually start off with a mouth call, usually a Rhino or Sceery (they haven't heard those) interspersed with some excited coyote barks. This usually works, at least the first time out, but I'd like to hear some other suggestions from the "masters". The coyotes are normally very vocal, and certainly not difficult to "locate".

The area is usually thickly wooded, broken up by some open pastures, clearcuts, and pipeline right-of-ways.

Thanks,
ScottD
 
Scott I am surely not a master, but here is how I would probably handle that situation. Then I would most likely be back here shortly trying to find out how I SHOULD have done it instead!
I will look at a piece of country and say to myself, Self if you were just a rookie to this game where would you be tempted to set up. Just from what most folks at that stage most likely know or have been told.
Then I go somewhere else.
For instance , most all rookies want visibility, the more the better. So I will take my shotgun and go into the thick stuff
Set my call out about 30 feet , turn it on continously and get ready with the butt against my shoulder.

Or if there is a classic little elevation overlooking a nice clear cut area where you could and would expect a coyote to just come bopping a cross, I will get in before daylight and slip in and set up in that little dip in the middle.
What ever I have to do to give them a little different angle from what they are used to.

I know that many are going to crucify me for this , but I don't think that the sounds you make are that dang important.
The area that the sounds are coming from dang sure is.
Think about it, what is the one thing most all callers have in common? not their sounds, but their means of ingress to the areas.
And almost to a man where they will set up.
They are driving along and see a little ridge running over looking some good country and some cover to sit against and I will bet that it has been called already this season , perhaps many times. Coyotes avoid areas more than anything else.

If he gets shot at and missed once there he is going to be wary about going back the next time. However the next time he is hungry again when he hears a distress sound so he goes to investigate. Only this time he goes in more cautiously. What does he see? just some wanna be pickin his nose and ZIP he is out of there.
Everyone is worried about the sounds that they make , and not sounding like everyone else. Well I have a test for you. Take your favorite call and let your friend blow on it. You will swear the reeds broke.
Now electronics are different, all foxpros sound the same. You hear one dying jack out of a FP and you have heard them all.
This then raises its ugly head, what about that. Well what are our options?
What are the facts? Fact one is that not everyone uses a FP. Many are using a JS, and they don't sound the same.
But for aguments sake lets imagine that everyon had to make the exact same sounds. What then?
I go back to my theory that the sounds you make are the LEAST important part of the whole package.
Give a coyote a couple of weeks and hit him with the same sound but from somewhere he doesent expect a human to be and bingo he will probably bite.
I feel that they will instinctively react ujless given a reason to think differently. If their little warning bell doesent go off , triggered by some bad past experiance I think that they will come in.
And that is the world according to Garp.

I will try and hit the
 
I just read this againto see how stupid i sounded. Not as bad as I thought actually. However I saw something interesting and that was the few words at the bottom of the page. I swear I did not type those! where in the world did they show up from?
I will try to hit the...

kind of strange.
 
Scott,
I had to smile when I read your post because I have sure been down that dang road more than just a time or two. Read Craig Hamilton's post a couple of times because I can tell that he has been through it a couple times also. Try calling the more open area's right at first light, while coyote's eyes are still ajusting and he thinks it is still dark. After sunrise, go in to the thick stuff with electronic call and a shotgun loaded with copper plated BB's. Set up in such a way that the machine is cross-wind twenty yards or so in a small clearing.

I hope you have some coyote traps and some pure gland lure at hand because you are gonna need em.

Now after the pups are born you will need a good howler and a pup squealer. If you just had a good decoy dog to go out and harrass the coyotes and lure em back to the gun----

Wow am I ever gonna get crucified now.
smile.gif
 
ScottD--Sounds like the typical ADC problem to me. It also sounds like most of the activity that occurs before you are brought onto the scene are things that art dealing with the coyotes eyes and his ears; little or nothing with his nose.

Wiley E. may very well correct me on this, but if that is true then you may be able to cut a wide swath with a good trapline. Rich Cronk mentioned this and I agree with him completely. Also, are snares legal in Texas at least for ADC work? If so they are really nice to use in some damage situations assuming there are not deer all over the place. In addition, you might check to see what it would take to get yourself registered to use M-44 cyanide guns for ADC. They are a marvelous tool for use in ADC situations. Wiley E. would know a lot about these and give you a lot of the details.

I would surely beat on these coyotes for awhile with some stuff like this that they may not know very much about. Give the calls a rest for awhile; you can bring them back later after you have knocked these coyotes around with some new stuff.
 
When dealing with a situation like this what Craig Hamilton said is important. If everyone drives down a certain road and shoots at coyotes from it they will be shy of that area. Even if you get clear off the road you are still calling from the same direction the other guy(s) have. Come in from a different direction with your calls and you can really increase your success.

I'm sorta with Craig Hamilton when it comes to sounds. I think you can call the coyotes in again with the same sound coming from a different direction but switching sounds won't hurt. The direction the sounds is coming from is really what's important.

Keep the wind in your favor. I have never had that great of luck calling down-wind. I have almost always called facing into the wind and that has worked best for me. In your situation this may not be so but I thought I'd throw it in.

Hope this helps.

-UtahTrapper-
 
ScottD, I'm not sure I like the tone of your post, you seem to blame recreational callers for screwing up your coyotes and that because of this the coyotes become hard to hunt, well I say if you are such a pro why do you have to ask. I may be all wrong but it just rubbed me wrong
 
Howler, I'm not inclined to do any editing, but you could have been a little more civil in your post. I'm reasonably sure Scott didn't mean it the way it sounded. Actually, I'm just like most of you guys. No "Master Hunter" here, I'm just a recreational caller, and I too, sorta pursed my lips when I read the question. No sense in getting offended over an offhand remark, know what I mean?
smile.gif


Good hunting. LB
 
Originally posted by howler:
ScottD, I'm not sure I like the tone of your post, you seem to blame recreational callers for screwing up your coyotes and that because of this the coyotes become hard to hunt, well I say if you are such a pro why do you have to ask. I may be all wrong but it just rubbed me wrong

Howler I know that this is not adressed to me but if you don't mind I would like to respond.

Scott D really did not appear to be blaming anyone, instead he was simply stateing facts.
Facts are that beginning callers can educate an area. This would make it harder for someone who is in the biz of being succesful at removing problems .

There is not a dang thing wrong with recreational callers, heck most all of us are just that , myself included.

I sincerely hope that you arent taking any offense at this, however I sure did not get the same read of Danny's post.
To be honest, I respect a guy more for admitting he don't know it all. For in that lies one real sign of a true pro.

I rodeo'd on a pro level for many years. Qualified for the National finals a couple of times and the one thing that I noticed about most true pro's is that they werent above asking each other for advice or just to compare notes. So again I hope that you take this the right way, and I hope that you re read Danny's post and see that it really was not meant to slight anyone. Least of all yourself.
 
I probably am one those rec guys with the bag full of calls. I didn't get offended, I am glad he asked now maybe i can go back to some of the areas I screwed up and have a reasonable chance of calling one in. personally i love these senerio questions give a good prespective on what the question rely is.
 
Thanks for the replies, and I want to offer my sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended or angered. That was certainly not my intention, nor would it ever be. The one problem with written medium is that sometimes, it's difficult to get across the true context of a message. We are all recreational callers...myself included...just sometimes the desired results might be a little different. The descriptive phrases I used were intended to demonstrate that, and that alone. This is exactly why I read often but post little.

In response to some of the answers, traps, while certainly legal and effective, are usually out becuase they are unbiased toward non-target animals. One ranch where I work monthly also raises and trains bird dogs, for example. Traps are out by owner decree. Another, while being a fairly large place, is surrounded by developments of small, 5-acre places...."ranchettes" I think they're called. One gets a bad rep QUICK when running his line only to find Ol' Blue or FiFi in the trap.

I had to smile myself when I read Rich's and the other post about using shotguns in the thick stuff. I think, from what I read anyway, that I am one of the few who uses a shotgun, usually, by choice. My preferred method is to get into the thick areas with a shotgun. I've got a couple of pretty specialized ones just for this purpose.

Anyway, thanks again and I want to repeat that I didn't intend to offend anyone. Maybe sometime I can sit down over a cup of coffee and explain in person some of the things I see done on a weekly basis. I really believe that the response would be "OH...NOW I see what you mean".

ScottD
 
Scott,
I too am a recreational caller, and I have seen those problems in which you speak. A lot of cattlemen will cry a lot when coyotes start killing calves but a large percentage of them are not willing to tie old fido up long enough for a man to get the killer with traps and snares. I never did enjoy catching someone's pet, but pet owners should realize that when they let old fido run all over the country they are asking for trouble. I always carried a loop and pole similar to dog catcher tool, which I used to release dogs that wore a collar and tags. I sold all of my traps this year, so free roaming dogs are safe from my foot holds. I guess my point here is that people who are having livestock killed by coyotes will have to decide for themselves whether or not they really want the killing stopped. There are still a few men left who know what it takes to stop the killing, but there are risks involved. Seems like everything in real life is a trade-off don't it?
smile.gif
 
Hey folks,new member here.In this situation I use the same game I use on an old wise turkey gobbler that is call shy and smart.Double team the suckers! Take a partner along and take a best guess on where the coyote will come from to check out the scene and ambush him.This can be deadly on foxes and coyotes
smile.gif


------------------
 
Howler, I know where you are coming from here and your point is well taken. Scott's
desription of recreational callers was a little sarcastic to then turn around and ask
for advice from a board full of recreational callers.

Next, since everyone knows at least one bona-fide, sho' nuff varmint hunter, comes the guy with the latest electronic call and a boxful of tapes sold to him by a clerk at the local Wal-Mart who hasn't a clue as to their effectiveness, only that "we've sure sold a lot of them". This guy might even kill a coyote or two, but for sure he lets them all hear a bunch of calls. - Scott

Scott, No offense taken on my part but I thought you deserved what Howler gave you for the above remark. Don't sweat it. Everyone takes their turn in the barrel. LOL!

Anyway, on to your question. First off let me say that any ADC guy worth his salt realizes that educated coyotes are what he is usually dealing with. The dumb ones do not survive to calving season in most areas. That's just part of it. It would also be pretty arrogant to think that ADC guys such as myself don't educate a few too. The more confident you become in your abilities the less you worry about educated coyotes and the more you are challenged by educated coyotes.

For instance, when Albert and I were calling one area, the landowner told me that he just had a few guys in there calling the day before. I don't remember if he said that they got any or not. Anyway we called the same general area. On one stand I forgot and blew a rabbit call only to watch a pair that were coming in take off on a dead run. That was my fault. I knew better and I was reminded of my mistake.

Craig H. gives good advice and I am with him to a point on the importance of sounds. I think the sounds you make are important but not nearly as important as other things. I think Craig meant that lots of sounds will work equally as effective. If that's what Craig meant, I agree totally. Like he said,
A different approach on a different day with a different sound will kill most coyotes.

In regards to educated coyotes, can you imagine how hungry a coyote would get in rabbit country if he was scared to come to the sound of a dieing rabbit? They may approach with caution if they have been called and shot at. They will probably come more cautiously to an area that doesn't seem natural for a dieing rabbit sound than they would in an area that did seem natural. All coyotes have weaknesses, your job is to figure out what those weaknesses are. Wiley E

[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 03-21-2001).]
 
Wiley E,

Point taken...and I apologize again. Not necessarily for what I said per se, but for the fact that it was offensive and objectionable to some. What I MEANT to get across, by the terms that I used, was that I include myself in those catagories as well. But the ISSUE I was trying to address was not "recreational calling" (which again, I am a participant in) versus any ADC-type work, but rather dealing with "educated" coyotes. Of which I've "educated" more than my fair share.

The point you made about coyotes and their response to a dying rabbit sound raises some other questions with me, and is something that I've personally tried to study and answer myself for quite some time. Do you think that a coyote, as a canine, will alter his behavior and/or response to a particular sound or other stimuli IF he receives, or HAS received, a negative consequence most of the time he responds to it?

Let me sidetrack a little to give an example from the canine world that might partially illustrate what I'm asking here. I train my own birddogs, and it takes me a very short time to alter a dogs behavior simply by providing that dog with a negative consequence, say an e-collar or even a rolled-up newspaper, every time he does something. In a matter of days, he will stop that particular behavior. He may WANT to, but he doesn't do it.

Now, at the risk of getting in trouble again, :), let me give an actual example of a guy who lives in my hometown who identifies himSELF as a professional predator hunter (HIS words, not mine). He has large speakers mounted on the OUTside of his truck on a headache rack. One of his favorite "techniques" is to drive the backroads either at daylight or last light with a coyote howling tape playing FULL VOLUME through those speakers. Now, please get the picture here, and if this is a genuine, viable technique, please let me know. He does not STOP and howl and listen for a response, he just drives, non-stop...engine running, at about 30-35 mph with that tape blaring. He says he's "howlin' 'em up". Again, his actual words, not mine. Please get the picture...remember that crazy tank driver in the movie "Kelly's Hero's"? Same deal here.

Now, I've lived in this area for 20+ years. I know these woods, and I know there are coyotes there...lots of them. What response do YOU think that I get when I howl in those areas? I, like you, believe in howling a great deal. But these coyotes don't howl...ever. Not in this part of the county they don't.

Anyway, I'm getting too long winded, I guess. But my question still remains. Do you think that coyotes "learn" or "associate" particular sounds with negative consequences and alter their behavior or responses?

Thanks again, and I don't mind my turn in the barrel. I rodeoed as well, but as a bullfighter and a barrelman rather than a contestant. Being in the barrel ain't so bad sometimes...especially when there's a pissed-off, snot-slinging bull outside. :)

ScottD
 
Scott,
The great Murray Burnham once told me this--"If a man could kill every coyote that he calls, then there would be no call shy coyotes". How true those words are. Coyotes do indeed wise up to certain sounds that are used over and over again. Some folks refuse to believe that coyotes become call shy, but believe me when I tell you that they most certainly do wise up quick.If you hear a knock at your door this morning, you will probably walk over and open said door to see who is there. Now suppose that when you open the door some idiot smacks you in the eye with a beer bottle. Tomorrow morning about the same time, you hear a knock at your door. Are you gonna walk over there and just open the door again?----
smile.gif
smile.gif
smile.gif
 
Thanks Rich. That's exactly the path I was originally intending on taking when I started this post.

To answer, nope, I wouldn't just sashay up to the front door if that happened...especially after the first couple of times. :) Next time, I'd probably try and sneak out the back door with a handful of 12-gauge and try and peek around the side of the house to see if I could catch the idiot poised to chunk another beer bottle. BUT...if, when doing that, the idiot's partner winged a beer bottle at me from the bushes on the side of the house....well, pretty soon I'd be damn reluctant to answer the door at all. Unless...maybe...the knock sounded "different". Or maybe it was at the back door instead of the front.

Now, I don't think a coyote can "reason" like that. But he's got to be able to "associate" certain sounds with certain negative experiences.

The information I was seeking was about the different sounds. I personally use calls (handcalls 99% of the time) that are not readily available...at least locally. I'm after a sound that they are not SO used to hearing on a regular basis. Which is why I just sent you an email to order one of yours.
:)

ScottD
 
ScottD--If it is any consolation at this point, I wasn't disturbed at all by your initial post. In fact, I laughed so hard my sides hurt. I knew exactly what you were talking about, because I know a couple of the "sho-nuff" types myself. While I was reading your post I could just visualize this 1 German-Russian I know fitting right into the whole scenario ("Ya shure, ven I shoat up tem coyoteees art det alrety, not!). I still laugh, when I think of your post.

Anyway, no offense at all from this part of the sub-arctic!
 
Steve,

You just made my day!!! I laughed so hard that I had people come by my office to see "what was so damn funny".

Thanks,
ScottD

[This message has been edited by ScottD (edited 03-22-2001).]
 
Back
Top