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#239412 - 03/07/01 12:53 PM Wiley E-Calling Competition
yote hunter Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Sycamore, Ill. USA
Wiley E.
You posted an answer about calling contest on another site. I believe you stated something about a calling contest at this time of year where we could really help ranchers out. The guys would pick the area they were going to hunt from a hat and then hunt their area. I have wanted to call a contest but most of them seem to be shrouded in some kind of problems(cheating). What if cash prizes were removed and some type of traveling trophy was awarded. Would enough guys enter just for the sake of helping ranchers? Could it be held in another state under the same rules the following year? Your thoughts. I'd like to here what you other guys think also. Your idea for a contest really seemed refreshing. Yote Hunter.

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#239413 - 03/07/01 06:42 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
DOG CALLER Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 54
Loc: Kansas
Yote Hntr-

This type of contest I'm sad to say would most likly only attract the locals. Most of the dedicated contest callers might go to a contest like this if and I say if they could attract the top callers to compete. Most of the top callers around are not household names. People like the Johnson bros.,Schmid bros.,Heid bros. Bill Countess, Larry Symes, Thad Countess, Robert Crask, Ernie Currant, Dennis Howell and many others I haven't mentioned will compete but they like to compete against the best out there. If the competition is there they will be there!

[This message has been edited by DOG CALLER (edited 03-07-2001).]

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#239414 - 03/07/01 06:57 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
yote hunter Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Sycamore, Ill. USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DOG CALLER:
Yote Hntr-

This type of contest I'm sad to say would most likly only attract the locals. Most of the dedicated contest callers might go to a contest like this if and I say if they could attract the top callers to compete. Most of the top callers around are not household names. People like the Johnson bros.,Schmid bros.,Heid bros. Bill Countess, Larry Symes, Thad Countess, Robert Crask, Ernie Currant, Dennis Howell and many others I haven't mentioned will compete but they like to compete against the best out there. If the competition is there they will be there!

[This message has been edited by DOG CALLER (edited 03-07-2001).]
[/QUOTE]
I guess I'm wondering out loud if there is a way to keep all of the hype out of it and get it down to the guys that really like to get after the coyotes. Just for bragg'n rights. Stay away from the press and the dead animal pictures. Something aimed at helping the ranchers when they really need help. Yote Hunter.

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#239415 - 03/07/01 09:04 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
Wiley E Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Kadoka, S.D.
I recently spent a day traveling with a good friend and tremendous recreational coyote caller. We both have entered lots of contests and we discussed the pros and cons and the cheating in many of the contests. The primary concern for both of us was to compete on a level playing field. We have both been beat out due to a lack of a level playing field numerous times. We talked about putting on a National Finals Coyote Calling Contest that would be as cheat proof as could be possible. Here are some of the ideas we discussed to establish a level playing field, eliminate cheating, and help the ranchers and / or big game when it would do the most good!

#1 It would need to be held in the month of Feb. which is when coyote immigration is slowing down and closer to calving and / or fawn drop. To help with livestock loss may help with land access and may also help provide additional prize money as an incentive. Helping with livestock loss would put coyote calling contests in a more favorable light.

#2 Only accomplished callers that have placed in at least one contest in the top ten would be allowed. Either that or need proof of some established criteria to only allow the best recreational callers. I realize that this will create hard feelings but it is the National Finals and only the best should qualify. The other reason is that the ranchers would want accomplished callers not begginers shooting holes in the sky.

#3 It would be held in an area where there was lots of similar terrain with a stable coyote population throughout and where they have been causing problems.

#4 We discussed the idea of drawing for a specific area within the general area and having a guide go along and stay in the pickup. The drawing would be allowed 1 or 2 days prior to the contest to allow for scouting but not be so far in advance to attract coyotes to baits. If a bait is present in the area, so be it. Consider it good luck! The ranchers would guide or select a guide that would ride along and stay in the pickup or be close enough to the general area to know what is going on.

This system should prevent baiting, pooling coyotes, night calling, running coyotes down with pickups, and other forms of cheating. It would also prevent people from piling up in the same areas. It would provide a level playing field and an equal opportunity to have the best areas. Areas would need to be equal in quality. I can think of many areas this would work if a large block of landowners were willing to provide access and guide or furnish a guide in return for thinning out problem coyotes. The sandhills of NE comes to mind. Similar terrain throughout with lots of coyotes.

#5 The number of acres per team would need to be established. Some areas may encompass parts of a large ranch and some may encompass numerous ranches.

#6 Or it may be portions of similar public land that contains stable numbers of coyotes.

#7 It would be a 2 full day contest. No stopping at 3:00 PM to stand around waiting for a banquet. Daylight to dawn for 2 days.

#8 Ties would be broken by total weight and not check in times.

#9 All coyotes would be blocked and probed

#10 Teams would travel in the same vehicle but have the option to split up or call together. This would allow for stalking a hesitant coyote while the other man calls. Driving a group of coyotes or a cripple to a partner. Some teams would be more comfortable calling together, others would be more comfortable calling seperately. Every one would have the option but both would travel in the same vehicle or 4 wheeler.

#11 All proceeds would cover expenses and the rest would pay out to the callers.

#12 It would pay 10 places.

#13 All callers would be surveyed prior to the contest as to rule concerns and all rules would be based on a majority rules consensus.

#14 limiting to between 40 and 60 teams would be about right.

Your thoughts?

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#239416 - 03/07/01 09:26 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
velociraptor Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 13
Loc: Coyote Country
Dogcaller, u forgot a team, and that's u and Larry.

Wow, Wiley, we'll be there. I hope my new gun gets here.
I think it would be hard to find equal land for everyone. Beings that it would be that late in the year, it would be hard to find land, that there hasn't been much pressure. But if that could be done, the way u have it set up, would be just about as cheat proof as u could get, and fair.
And I like the title, u better put a patent on that before someone else uses it.

TH

[This message has been edited by Velociraptor (edited 03-07-2001).]

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#239417 - 03/07/01 10:51 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wiley E:
I recently spent a day traveling with a good friend and tremendous recreational coyote caller. We both have entered lots of contests and we discussed the pros and cons and the cheating in many of the contests. The primary concern for both of us was to compete on a level playing field. We have both been beat out due to a lack of a level playing field numerous times. We talked about putting on a National Finals Coyote Calling Contest that would be as cheat proof as could be possible. Here are some of the ideas we discussed to establish a level playing field, eliminate cheating, and help the ranchers and / or big game when it would do the most good!

#1 It would need to be held in the month of Feb. which is when coyote immigration is slowing down and closer to calving and / or fawn drop. To help with livestock loss may help with land access and may also help provide additional prize money as an incentive. Helping with livestock loss would put coyote calling contests in a more favorable light.

#2 Only accomplished callers that have placed in at least one contest in the top ten would be allowed. Either that or need proof of some established criteria to only allow the best recreational callers. I realize that this will create hard feelings but it is the National Finals and only the best should qualify. The other reason is that the ranchers would want accomplished callers not begginers shooting holes in the sky.

#3 It would be held in an area where there was lots of similar terrain with a stable coyote population throughout and where they have been causing problems.

#4 We discussed the idea of drawing for a specific area within the general area and having a guide go along and stay in the pickup. The drawing would be allowed 1 or 2 days prior to the contest to allow for scouting but not be so far in advance to attract coyotes to baits. If a bait is present in the area, so be it. Consider it good luck! The ranchers would guide or select a guide that would ride along and stay in the pickup or be close enough to the general area to know what is going on.

This system should prevent baiting, pooling coyotes, night calling, running coyotes down with pickups, and other forms of cheating. It would also prevent people from piling up in the same areas. It would provide a level playing field and an equal opportunity to have the best areas. Areas would need to be equal in quality. I can think of many areas this would work if a large block of landowners were willing to provide access and guide or furnish a guide in return for thinning out problem coyotes. The sandhills of NE comes to mind. Similar terrain throughout with lots of coyotes.

#5 The number of acres per team would need to be established. Some areas may encompass parts of a large ranch and some may encompass numerous ranches.

#6 Or it may be portions of similar public land that contains stable numbers of coyotes.

#7 It would be a 2 full day contest. No stopping at 3:00 PM to stand around waiting for a banquet. Daylight to dawn for 2 days.

#8 Ties would be broken by total weight and not check in times.

#9 All coyotes would be blocked and probed

#10 Teams would travel in the same vehicle but have the option to split up or call together. This would allow for stalking a hesitant coyote while the other man calls. Driving a group of coyotes or a cripple to a partner. Some teams would be more comfortable calling together, others would be more comfortable calling seperately. Every one would have the option but both would travel in the same vehicle or 4 wheeler.

#11 All proceeds would cover expenses and the rest would pay out to the callers.

#12 It would pay 10 places.

#13 All callers would be surveyed prior to the contest as to rule concerns and all rules would be based on a majority rules consensus.

#14 limiting to between 40 and 60 teams would be about right.

Your thoughts?
[/QUOTE]

Boy when you fellas get your heads together stuff happens!

Let me see now
#1 Feb is good, your timeing is right to make the most difference in livestock loss.
Or as you mentioned , wildlife loss. Just another angle to play perhaps.

#2, probably a good idea, it is going to creat hard feelings though , as you also mentioned.
There are going to be folks who are liable to feel the judging of criteria to be biased.
And how will you verify experiance?

#3, fair enough.

#4,Quite a few items here,
The idea of drawing for areas that soon before the contest ,does reduce the likely hood of baiting. The tests and safegaurds you mentioned should reduce the likely hood of cheating in the area of night calling.
The guide system you want is where I see the major blockages to the system.
I am not sure if it is realistic to think that you would be able to recrute that many guides.
Ranchers as you know are going to be very busy that time of year, and to pay a hand to go along could be iffy. Also with relying on that many different personalities in guides that opens up another can of worms.
Perhaps another idea since you will already know what areas are going to be hunted. Let it be known that there will be roving patrols out with spotting scopes watching for misdeeds.
Even going so far as to mention a plane in the air would help tremendously.
One friend with a small aircraft doing a few low level passes , and the thought of a spotting scope perhaps watching over them from somewhere I feel might be enough of a deterent.

# 5, Nuff said ,
#6,same deal.
# 7,Great idea.
#8, another great idea.
#9, even a better idea.

# 10, I am not sure about this one, calling together is a good thing for a contest, however if they elect to ride 4 wheelers you may be opening yourself up to liability by forcing them to ride on the same unit.
I think that the thought of a roving patrol may reduce the chance of spliting up to an acceptable degree.

Numbers #11, #12 ,and # 13 all good solid ideas.

# 14, make it an even 50.
You might even play on that number a little.
Call it Wiley E's top fifty showdown.

I hope that my ideas arent too far in left field, but remember you did ask.
Craig.

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#239418 - 03/08/01 05:40 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know that security might be a concern, but the dates should be announced at least a couple months in advance. Some people need to beg for time off.

#1) I would prefer late January, like Superbowl weekend. You own the woods. Catering to antis doesn't work.

#2) I don't like the elitist nature of the qualifications. Just because somebody has not played in your neighborhood doesn't mean that they are not competitive. I'd like to give everybody a shot, but I know the crowd could be unmanagable.

#4) A guide? Who's going to do that? That's why we don't hunt Mexico any more. Too much trouble, and they would be underfoot. Give them a map, instead. If they can't read it, too bad.

#7) That's the way to do it, give them as much time in the field as possible.

#8) I prefer to break ties by arrival. If there is reckless and unsafe driving, lodge a protest, and disqualify the offenders. I can't see where a thirty pound coyote should lose to a thirty-one pounder.

#10) Agree with this, stupid requirement that the team members be joined at the hip.

#13) Agree with that, but it could get confusing with last minute rule changes. I have lost because I didn't catch a last minute change. & it should be in writing, even if it is a new rule change, not an announcement while people are ready to hit the road.

#14) See #2 you are right, it would create some hard feelings. What would you have to do, bring a list with your name on it, from ten years ago?

However, concept sounds good. Wiley, you should manage it, it's your idea.

That's my thoughts, for what it's worth. LB

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#239419 - 03/08/01 06:29 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
Wiley E Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Kadoka, S.D.
Well, thanks for the feedback guys! I knew #2 would be difficult but we did want to attract the best of the best that enter contests hence the name "National Finals". Not everyone qualifies for the National Finals, right Craig? Personally, I would not have any interest in conducting just another coyote calling contest open to anyone. There are plenty of them. This one is high stakes and related directly to reduction of livestock loss and / or fawn drop areas.

Right now, between Myself, Heids, Dogcaller, Craig Hamilton, Leonard and others, we could easily put together a list of callers that consistently rise to the top in the various contests. Heath, Lolly, Stoddard, Schmidt, Krogman, Kennedy, Bouman, Huston, Perault, Hindman, Denke, Hicks, Richadson, McAllister, Sterling, Eggers, and a few others that I may have forgotten are the SD names that I know that would qualify. That wasn't too difficult. It could be by invite based on the knowledge of the contests that we have been in. By invite, it would be more difficult to cause hard feelings. Between Dogcaller, Heids, and Myself, we know who consistently makes it to the top in Rawlins, Cortez, and St. Francis. I think that wouldn't be to tough based on invite only.

You see in order to get some outside prize money based on livestock damage reduction you would need to be able to provide coyote hunters that would kill a high percentage of the coyotes they call. To deliver, we need the best callers that enter contests. Ranchers are not going to support this for a team that sees 24 coyotes and kills 3. We have to do it right the first time.

In regards to guides, I really didn't like that idea myself either. I do think we need to draw for areas 2 days in advance to prevent baiting and to level the playing field. Maybe we could try it without guides the first year.

Leonard, regarding rules, I meant we would send out a list of ideas for rules well in advance of the contest and allow contestant input on the rules to establish the final rules based on that input. For example if the majority felt that they wanted 1 pickup and /or 1 4wheeler per team then that would be the rules.

Sorry Leonard, I am going to campaign hard for total weight as a tie breaker. I have lots of guys in my corner on that one. LOL! We did beat a team out by 1 pound once and they weren't nearly as upset as a team that was passed by another team on the way to the checkin and lost to them based on that. Killing more adult coyotes generally shows more skill than killing younger coyotes. Particularly in a calving situation. Territorial adults are the problem animals. To call in 3 and pick the biggest one requires additional stategy. I hate the check in time tie breakers. It gives a decided advantage to the teams closest to town and to those who drive fast.

If the majority of those surveyed liked the check in time tie breaker, that would be the rules. Period! Majority rules! I would print the quoted pros and cons of each system in the survey.

Dogcaller, you going to jump in here? Wiley E

[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 03-08-2001).]

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#239420 - 03/08/01 07:53 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
yote hunter Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Sycamore, Ill. USA
Wiley E.
Since I posted this question and probably would not qualify for the contest, would there be any way that guys like me could act as the guides and take the monkey off the back of the ranchers. Meet with them ahedof time and get the lay of the land. I like the weight idea. Call it the Predator Masters Finals. Yote Hunter.

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#239421 - 03/08/01 08:54 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
DOG CALLER Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 54
Loc: Kansas
Wiley,
as you already know I perfer check in times rather than weight. Both systems have merit, but I know what we did this year at St. Francis, We hunted to the last minute (we were over 3 hours from the contest site) and still had to drive like a mad man to check in before deadline. You have to get in as many stands as possible reguardless of which system you use. Check in times uses more stratagy, check in early and take our chances, or stay out and try for one more. Checking in for weight still has some of the same draw backs as time check in. We used every minute we could for another coyote and really stretched our travel time back to check in to the fullest. We were flying back to St. Francis. Either way you are going to have that element that you don't like. Speed.
By the way we ended up with the lightest of the 9's. Ended up fifth after the DQ.

I love the idea, I'm always up for a good shoot!!


[This message has been edited by DOG CALLER (edited 03-08-2001).]

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#239422 - 03/08/01 11:31 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wiley the only thing that I am completely ,adamantly and actually phobically against is ties determined by check in times!

This goes against everything that coyote contests are for, notice I said for and not about.
They are for reducing the number of predators in a given area for the benefit of livestock and wildlife.

I say let fellows hunt till the last rays of sun are gone, and they are having to squint at shadows.
Then allow enough time after dark for check in that they are not risking life and limb to make in before curfew.
It ain't a hard deal, in a contest I always have my back to town stands that I save just for my return trip.
That is also a little strategy.
Hunt the farthest away first and work your way back.

[This message has been edited by Craig Hamilton (edited 03-08-2001).]

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#239423 - 03/09/01 12:12 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
nd coyote killer Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 858
Loc: Grand Forks, ND
I like this idea i will have to make top ten at a contest now so i can qualify. Keep up the good brainstorming and let me now when it will be i will be there if i have placed a top ten by then.

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#239424 - 03/09/01 12:43 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
gare Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 2
Loc: Canton Ohio USA
do you all mind if i just take a lot of helpful notes

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#239425 - 03/10/01 04:25 PM Re: Wiley E-Calling Competition
DOG CALLER Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 54
Loc: Kansas
Wiley,

If you guys decide to do this let me know, I would be happy to help out with some of the leg work. The last contest of the year that I know of is Norms late hunt, which was the first week of February. It would have to be after this in order to get the big boys. I say lets do it!!

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