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#2371275 - 12/26/12 12:07 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jglynn Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 1787
Loc: Southeast Oklahoma
as for ranging/hunting, not just running wild, will a shih tzu work??? maybe but im guessing not. like you have said, it doesnt take alot to be a decoy dog. i would just think if the dog was more of a hunting type dog, the training curve would be easier.

like i said earlier, it is all in what you want your dog to do. if it is going to have to cover alot of land looking for coyotes it will need endurance and a good nose. if it is just going to sit beside you and go at one once it comes in, than almost anything would work.

i would just pick the dog that fits your needs as far as at home and in the field.

myself, i dont want to feed a 125 lb. dog just to be a companion on stand. if that is all i want i dont want a dog that will break me with a food bill. the dog should earn his own keep.
_________________________
NO SISSIES!

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#2371297 - 12/26/12 12:46 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
No, not at all. The op just didnt seem to be going anywhrre other than you need a good bloodline. So i decided to take a good look at that.

Im hoping someone will prove me wrong. I wont beat around the bush anymore. I continue to see guys who have almost no knowledge what so ever of hunting dogs giving advice. It shows pretty clear to me. A perfect example was posted even after i started this thread. In the thread about shocking a dog.

I keep hearing about the stellar breading behind these decoy dogs. And the loads of hunt drive. Why because they follow you around the desert? I dont think 90% of these guys really know anything at all about the breeding of their dog, or what makes that cross good or bad. But we keep hearing about how important the blood is.

This is not directed at anyone. It is just the general attitude of a talk forum that gets me.

So, someone please prove me wrong!

Merry Christmas !
SPOT ON
_________________________
LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2371299 - 12/26/12 12:49 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
i must be missing something here. From what i have seen a dog who is to be strictly a decoy dog for the majority of guys one here need a pretty small skill set.
Im basing this on what i see repeatedly on here.

#1 must be good with the family. I see that constantly. Cant say how many times i hear "family pet will be his main job" well that doesnt require any special blue ribbon bloodline. You can pick up a mut from any dog pound that will make a great pet.

#2 must be obedient and handle well. any hunting dog or pet for that matter should have a desire to please its master. If you put in your time the dog should do his part regardless of bloodlines. I have seen some dogs out of trophy stock that i would just soon shoot in the head than try to handle. Then i have seen some muts that handle like a dream.

#3 must have some drive and want to hunt. We are not talking about your dog putting on 16 miles a day running a track, or standing treed for hours. we are talking about a dog ether sitting by your side while you call, or running around and checking things out or even for some of you guys running up to a mile out and checking back in from time to time. This is also something i feel like you could get from almost any cross pretty steadily.

#4 they need to have a mix of teeth and reverse. not too much of one or the other. well to me that just totally fits several different breeds all together, not bloodline specific.

#5 They need to have enough nose to smell a two min old track. And if a decoy dog is tracking a coyote its because he is shot and bleeding. Doesnt take much nose to find a shot bleeding yote five to fifteen min old. Pretty much any cur, hound, or terrier should be able to accomplish this fairly easily.

And i dont personally think that 99% of guys on here will ever hunt their decoy dog to truly wear them out, or require any extreme endurance.

Now i know some of you guys use your dogs for much more than just decoying yotes. But then they are not strictly decoy dogs so thats a different conversation.

So after looking at it from that point of view, just how important is breeding in a decoy dog?
This was just a Tony Tebb ad Jesse.
_________________________
LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2371579 - 12/26/12 12:09 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
I am on his payroll!
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2372016 - 12/26/12 06:44 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
I knew it. lol
_________________________
LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2372280 - 12/26/12 09:25 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
j.hennes Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 202
Loc: montana
I know that when I posted about breeding, I was referring to my dogs (Plott hounds) and the way I use them (trail and tree dogs). I hunt lions, bobcats, bears and the occasional coyote. If the op was queried on decoy dogs, I missed that.

A scent hound that will trail and tree operates on instinct, I almost never brag on my dogs. Why? I didn't breed them and scent hound performance is mostly instinct and therefore breeding. When I do brag them up, it is when they learn something, such as obedience or handle type things. Or if they work out an impossible loss. Things that require intelligence and not instinct.

I have used my male Plott hound for decoying coyotes, but he really doesn't have the brakes needed, he has run too many animals to now begin playing tag with them. I do feel that if I had worked him as a pup on recall, he would have figured it out, but he was about 5 or 6 when we first started playing around with decoying. It all began when he was conversing with a coyote and was able to call the 'yote in to about 400 yds, he was on a chain the whole time.

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#2372405 - 12/26/12 10:33 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Jesse, if your pimpin Tony Tebbe, how long before your start breeding anything that stands still, and selling them as "decoy doys", As you said, "it ain't that hard".
You wanna get in the game, come on, if you think it takes "nothing" to make a decoy dog, you should be able to create plenty.The first year or so you can fool a few, after that, if they make it thats great, if they don't you are out of buss. But go ahead and make a go of it.Competion makes all dogs better.
_________________________


"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2372602 - 12/27/12 06:04 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Take it easy Duane. This thread has nothing to do with TT. I clearly posted that i dont think i have the decoy dogs figured out. All i want is for someone to explain to me why bloodlines are so important when breeding (decoy only) dogs.

Duane. I have absolutly no interest in decoy dogs. I dont understand why we cant have any conversation without it turning into TT. But im not an idiot, please dont treat me as one.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2372879 - 12/27/12 12:16 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
UphillDoc Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 157
Loc: Idaho
I think there are alot of different angles to consider on this thread.

Most dogs never amount to much because they just arent hunted enough, plain and simple. But for the average weekend hunter it wont take much dog to make them happy.

Dogs that are hunted hard will underperform from being sore, stressed, and just showing a hole in their breeding.

The topic seemed to switch to what does it take to make a "decoy dog" and the answer depends on what you think a "decoy dog" is, IMO.
Some folks would not consider a dog that just sits on the stand with the caller and helps locate shot coyotes a "decoy dog" It wont take much to fill that role. Most any companion dog could fill the bill. The dogs that go out and find/work coyotes and bring them back to the gun (tolling) are a different story. Its not a coincidence that alot of folks are using the same type dogs.

Take care.
_________________________
Im only responsible for what I say...not for what you understand.

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#2373043 - 12/27/12 02:29 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
the impactzone Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 2297
Loc: texas
In reference to the OP,
I got a golden retriever from a fat girl down the street when I was 17, he was your typical city golden retriever, bandana wearing ,chasing Frisbees and tennis balls at 1.5 years old. I picked up a copy of water dog in January and wore the pages out as well as him 2 hours a day on a lake , by the next duck season I had what would be called a finished dog, hand and whistle commands , no e-collar would cast out several hundred yards to find a bird, he would drop one retrieve and go to another on hand and whistle commands, fast forward a few years,

I’m in school in Colorado, and have to move from one Apt to another that won’t let me have a dog, ask a friend if he can board him for the summer till I get a new place, he says sure, he is on the other side of town so I only get to see the dog once a week and try to work him when I can, well Duck season rolls around, I have a new place, I pick up the dog and he is wearing a bandana and has a tennis ball in his mouth? The guys girl friend is trying to tell me to bring him back after the hunt season? In like a week right? (NOT)
I work him for a few days trying to brush off the rust, he does ok and I think once in the field he will snap to it. His first retrieve he takes the duck to the other side of the pond and starts to eat it and won’t respond to commands. He gets a good AZZ kicking and I figure it will work out, he works only ok the rest of the day, didn't have his heart in it. next hunt 3 days later we run into some other hunters and he wants to follow their dog and play like he was in the park , I was embarrassed, called my friend and told him to come pick up the dog if he wants him, being still in school I had no time to retrain the dog and he might as well keep it. In 4 months he and his girlfriend had ruined the dog.

So I would say what your friends/family do when you’re not around can affect your dog’s performance.
_________________________
Phil
lets change the game, put the Can on, turn the Lights out, and the Dog loose.

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#2373347 - 12/27/12 07:11 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
So doc, do you think that an average companion dog could make a tolling dog that ranges out and works coyotes? What type of breeding do you look for to make that kind of dog?

Now we are getting to where i was hoping to go!

Just to be sure everyone knows, i have no alterer motive here. Just trying to squeeze some good info and conversation out of you guys. Sometimes it takes some prodding! hahaha
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2373510 - 12/27/12 08:43 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jglynn Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 1787
Loc: Southeast Oklahoma
here is my vision of a good decoy dog....

a decent nose that will wind a coyote and can track one after a shot. not a cold nose that want to run everything he smells.

enuf hunt to want to go out and range around and hopefully a coyote sees it while hearing my calling and actually decoys in to the set.

very low aggression so it will not want to fight but can defend itself when it has to.

and smarts enough to realize that it is a game they have to play with the coyote and his prize comes when he does his job correct and you kill a coyote.

now im sure alot of breeds fit this dog discribed, i myself just like a yellow dog....hahaha

alot of guys probably would rather shoot my dog as feed him, but for me, he is picking up well and doing pretty much what i want him to. he seems to range a little further each trip. left for over 5 minutes tonite well over 500 yards away and finally came hauling a$$ back with 2 coyotes in toll. of course, i missed!
_________________________
NO SISSIES!

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#2373619 - 12/27/12 09:35 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
UphillDoc Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 157
Loc: Idaho
Jesse-No, I dont think the average companion dog will work as a true decoy dog, especially for the owner who isnt a weekend warrior that only gets out for a few hours, 4-6 times a month.
I think it takes a combo of hunt, brains and grit to make a real decoy dog. I think thats why the curs seem to have taken to the role so well. They have enough hunt to get them out of your lap, but not so much they blow out of the country, hound style. Brains can make up for a little lack of hunt or grit, but most folks wont be workin poodles as decoy dogs. Grit is needed to get the dogs to go back over and over, despite being sore or outnumbered. Too much grit and they just run alot of coyotes off...not enough grit and you cant throw them at the coyotes once they quit ya.

Take care.
_________________________
Im only responsible for what I say...not for what you understand.

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#2377358 - 12/30/12 08:55 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Jesse, I was just playing along with you. There are a few guys that can wear out a dog, or dogs, If dogs are working right, they are good for a day or so, if the conditions are good.That is why some guys get by with one dog, and other guys have a handful.A dog sitting by ya when you are calling, will never get "run out" a dog that is ranging 1 mile circles nonstop, will get "used up" when it gets warm.
As for a "true decoy dog", I don't have one, never have, yotes only trully work dogs about 3 months out of the year.The rest of the year, those dogs need a job, for me that is running cats, or blood trailing, or just simple recovery, or working cattle, or chasing hogs. So you are right, I want a dog that can earn feed, when its not decoying yotes. That in my mind does not mean eat cheetos, and sleep on the couch in the off season.I guess we all have our own ideas of what a dog needs to do. Some day we will set a "standard " for decoy dogs, till then I guess any dog that will sit by a guy, and chew on a dead yote "fits the bill". If that makes a guy happy that is great.
_________________________


"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2378109 - 12/31/12 12:37 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
So here we are, back to the 'ol question of what is a decoy dog! hahaha! See i knew i would get some good info flowing here, just had to keep prodding!

Believe me i would rather talk hounds than decoy dogs, but nobody wants to talk hounds. So when i say training, raising and breeding them is easy it gets you guys talking. Thats what this forum is all about!

Guys like Duane, Ryan, Doc, Tony............. Who hunt their decoy dogs hard and use the crap out of them know what it takes to keep them in shape. If you hunt your dogs every day, you know what causes bad days. I guarantee these guys know exactly what they can and cant get away with when it comes to their dogs. They know how each dog will react to different things. They may not look at it as doing something to keep from having a bad day, but the knowledge is still there!

Im not saying that any one is a lesser person for not being able to hunt their dogs every day. All this is about is the simple fact that lots of guys will never use a dog enough to get that dog to its full potential. So with some insight from these guys who use them hard, you might be able to avoid some bad days, and mistakes that you may never be able to fix!
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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