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#2362303 - 12/17/12 10:45 PM Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform?
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Just thought i would try to stir up some good conversation.

So in your mind/experience, what is the biggest factor in a dogs lack of preformance? Maybe just one day, maybe for a whole season. What makes them hunt to their best ability day after day? What causes them not to?
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2362399 - 12/17/12 11:43 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Dead Down Wind Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2639
Loc: Lakewood, Co.
Perform?

My dog wants too hunt! It is in his blood and he will walk to the end of the earth with me:-)

Dogs have bad days as well as people, Bullet, at 6 months is ready to tear into Coyotes, the only bad experiences he has had is cactus:-(

Still a lot of season left, i am sure he will have times when he just doesn't want to go, as for now? He loves being outside with me!
_________________________
A great judge of character is how you handle the things that don't benefit you.

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#2362492 - 12/18/12 01:43 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Dirtydude Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 112
Loc: N/E Worshington
Illness, Injury/Soreness, Fatigue.

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#2362897 - 12/18/12 02:59 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Dirtydude]
Norcalkyle Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 472
Loc: California
The human. If a dog is raised right and the time is put into bonding and training, it will do anything including die for it's owner, so that dog will give every hunt 100% baring health issues.

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#2363097 - 12/18/12 06:41 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Norcalkyle]
FullCryHounds Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 177
Loc: Colorado
Hands down, the number one factor in whether or not a dog makes it is its owner. Usually not getting the dog out enough and giving it a chance! I could go into more detail but probably should leave it at that.
_________________________
Dean Hendrickson
Pine, CO.


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#2363230 - 12/18/12 08:10 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
ok, so lets say finished dogs. You have a dog that works just the way you like 99% of the time. But what do you find causes those off days more than anything else? Is it food, fatigue, weather...... I was hoping to get a good conversation going here but maybe alotof people dont pay attention to those things.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2363272 - 12/18/12 08:30 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
roode301 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 1424
Loc: western ohio
Full moon,she is in heat.

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#2363367 - 12/18/12 09:19 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jeffeberle Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 60
Loc: Calif.
Breeding Breeding and Breeding

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#2363397 - 12/18/12 09:30 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: jeffeberle]
Norcalkyle Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 472
Loc: California
I think the reason those dogs have off days is due to things you or the dog can't control. I firmly believe a well trained and treated dog is a machine that will go to earths end to please it's handler.

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#2363401 - 12/18/12 09:33 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
jesse i say the guy that owns the dog, but if like you said, a dog that is finished and hunts great 99% of the time then i think just a off day. i have seen dogs hunt hard when they were so tired they just bearly got up to go to the truck but they sure hunted when you put them on the ground, same with dogs that had to sleep in a box for aweek of nights, eat different feed, or what ever. i just think if they are sure going good and hunt hard 99% of the time then they are just having a off day when they dont hunt hard, same as we do from time to time, but thats just my thoughts, what do you think?
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2363405 - 12/18/12 09:36 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Kyle you are right, but what im hoping to get out of this thread is that alot of the bad days can be avoided. Im hoping to help some of the guys who are new to hunting dogs realize just how important it is to pay attention to how dogs react to changes. How they react to different feed. There is almost always a reason, and it is usually avoidable once you get to know a dog.

But there is also alot more to learn here than meets the eye.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2363430 - 12/18/12 09:54 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
j.hennes Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 202
Loc: montana
funny you should ask this question. My lead dog is a 7 y/o Plott male that is far and away the best dog i have ever owned. I broke him early and often from deer elk etc. He gets an annual refresher course with the e-collar. He has/had never trashed, never not one time. Then last monday happened. Last week he was smoking a lion track like he has done many times over the years. He took that lion track at a run right up until the cat had hunted mule deer for a couple hours. Bullseye, failed me that day.

I don't know why he did that, on that day, he could have done it any other time in his past. He did have my pup with him, was she the influencing factor? He has trained a couple pups in his day. Never a hiccup before.

If you can figure out why dogs choose to think for themselves at the least opportune time instead of doing as I have instructed, let me know!

Generally speaking, I would say breeding influences a dogs hunting drive more than any other thing.

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#2363445 - 12/18/12 10:03 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Ryan, here are some of my thoughts. Like you i have seen dogs hunt hard dead tired, and on poor food, and every thing else stacked against them, but they arent usually as good as usual. I also agree that every dog will have an unexplainable bad day here or there. But i have seen huge differences in performance just from different feed. Every so often I run out of feed for my hounds, and have to feed the cheep stuff we feed the house dogs for a few days. After four days of feeding junk food, it takes a quick toll on the hounds. They wont perform as well, and will take longer to bounce back after a hard hunt.

Stress is also another factor. I see a big difference in performance when the hounds dont sleep well, get stressed out, or have too much excitement before a hunt.

Another thing would be climate change. They adjust to the climate at home, and if there is an extreem change to climate it can also affect them.

Most of these things are pretty subtle, but still there. I know that most of this seems unusual, or maybe some of you dont think you would ever experience these things, but we all can and will.

For you guys out west, if you live in lower elevation, and decide to take a trip up the mountain to call some yotes, well you will probably have a pretty quick climate change. Or if you are like me and get a wild hare and drive 6it hours north at midnight to run on fresh snow in the morning.lol

Also stress and excitement. If your decoy dog is also a house dog, and you have Christmas dinner at your house. The kids are running all over, its noisy and bussy, then after dinner you decide to take the father in law out to see some decoy action. If you dont think all the excitement is going to affect your dog even a little i think your crazy.

Like i said, most differences are probably pretty unnoticeable, but the small differences could make the difference.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2363806 - 12/19/12 10:08 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Norcalkyle Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 472
Loc: California
Jesse:
I agree with what you say about food and the environment the dog is in. I also think that guys can be lazy when bringing a dog up, and the easy excuse when the dog doesn't pan out is that they just got a bad one. Not saying all dogs will be superstars, but I firmly believe that if you start with good stock, feed well, bond well, train right, at the very least you will have all good dogs.

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#2363903 - 12/19/12 11:53 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Dead Down Wind Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2639
Loc: Lakewood, Co.
AMEN Norcalkyle!

I have been feeding my dog Taste of the Wild puppy food, he is 6 months old and now weighs in at a healthy 50lbs.

I was told he would be around 50lbs as an adult. He is built like a brick [beeep] house and solid muscle.......

I reckon he will top 60 before all is said and done.
_________________________
A great judge of character is how you handle the things that don't benefit you.

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#2364436 - 12/19/12 08:43 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
DoubleCK Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 3485
Loc: Wauneta, NE / Gold Canyon, AZ
Perhaps it is a little like a human athlete in competition. Performance depends a great deal on the performance of the opponent.

A cat, coon or coyote with a stretched full belly is one thing. A race with a lean mean running machine may be something different.
_________________________
Don't Go Ridin' on that Long Black Train!

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#2364592 - 12/19/12 10:28 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Most dogs out of good breeding, fail because of the handler.
Not being a jerk, just the way it is.
_________________________


"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2364755 - 12/20/12 01:47 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
hunter93 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Coweta, ok
First off I think breeding is most important to a dogs hunt. The best handler out there ain't gonna make a dog hunt that doesn't have it bred in them. On the flip side, a poor handler can sure ruin a good bred dog in a hurry.

As for a good day/bad day for a dog, one of the biggest things I have run into is hunting method. I run hog dogs and have the opportunity to hunt with many different people who hunt many different ways. I primarily hunt horseback or walking and my dogs hunt their butts off. But, for example, I have hunted my dogs with people who road their dogs in front of their trucks, and all my dogs would do is follow behind the truck wondering why I am leaving them. On the flip side I have hunted those road dogs on horseback and they would hardly get out from under your feet while my dogs are out beating the brush.. Another thing I have run into is hunting my dogs with dogs unfamiliar to them. And I have seen it go both ways. I have seen my dogs or others dogs shut down when hunted with particular dogs. But I have also seen dogs hunt like never before with new dogs, like they are trying to out do one another. I have hunted behind a few dogs that were amazing regardless of how they were hunted, but they are very few.

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#2365041 - 12/20/12 11:17 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: hunter93]
bigtrucker Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Manito, Illinois,USA
Probably suffer from "Bi-Polar" disorder. Extreme Highs and Lows. Just a thought.
_________________________
Old truckers never die "They Just Semi-Retire."

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#2365448 - 12/20/12 06:37 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: bigtrucker]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Originally Posted By: bigtrucker
Probably suffer from "Bi-Polar" disorder. Extreme Highs and Lows. Just a thought.


lmao
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2366137 - 12/21/12 11:01 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Duane@ssu]
Dead Down Wind Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2639
Loc: Lakewood, Co.
Originally Posted By: Duane@ssu
Most dogs out of good breeding, fail because of the handler.
Not being a jerk, just the way it is.



Duane,

You are dead on!

You get out of a dog what you put into them, Lazy trainer = Lazy dog!
_________________________
A great judge of character is how you handle the things that don't benefit you.

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#2367965 - 12/23/12 01:52 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Funny a guy brought up what I posted awhile back. I was thinking about this same thing today. I have some dogs outta my stock, and some outta other stock, my thoughts where about if the dogs I got from other guys fail, is it my fault or is it the breeding, and if so can I honestly say I (as the handler) did my best? Lucky for me the pups I got from other guys are bred up real good, and they are really coming on.I hunt the feet off dogs, if they are bred to hunt they dam sure get a chance to do it. On the flip side, if a dog don't want to hunt, I don't know anyway to fix that.So breeding is very important, but once they are bred they need a "fair chance".
_________________________


"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2369052 - 12/24/12 12:12 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Dead Down Wind]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
Originally Posted By: Dead Down Wind
Originally Posted By: Duane@ssu
Most dogs out of good breeding, fail because of the handler.
Not being a jerk, just the way it is.



I would strongly disagree with that. Some dogs are just culls and no matter what you put into them they are still going to be culls and some of the best breedings are still just culls. Some of the greatest bred dogs I have ever seen line bred on the top and bottom were nothing more than culls. What happened? The breeding just did not line up. Breeding is like a lottery ticket, you have a better chance of winning the loto than getting that world beater cross.
_________________________
LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2369053 - 12/24/12 12:13 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
I will say that breeding increases your chances of getting better dogs
_________________________
LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2369387 - 12/24/12 11:55 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jglynn Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 1787
Loc: Southeast Oklahoma
if the breeding is good the chances of culls are way lower than just breeding your stud dog to every b itch in the yard


Edited by jglynn (12/24/12 11:57 AM)
_________________________
NO SISSIES!

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#2369481 - 12/24/12 01:07 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Ok, so since this has gone into nreeding, ill ask this. How many of you guys have bought a pup to use as a decoy dog and got a cull? How many have ended up with a worthless dog?
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2369562 - 12/24/12 02:43 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jglynn Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 1787
Loc: Southeast Oklahoma
im on my 1st so i ant say yet.lol. back to the feed though, i switched to a high energy feed and my dog does seem to be alot more active on stand.
_________________________
NO SISSIES!

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#2369645 - 12/24/12 03:35 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Ward H. Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 778
Loc: The Oilfield (TX, LA, MS)
My dog wants to hunt non stop. But little things make me wonder. She's about 8 months. I say "load up" she loads up. Sometimes I say "load up" and she looks at me and is just like "to [beeep] with you!"

I'm buying a shock collar
_________________________
My life seems more interesting on instagram @warddanger

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#2369831 - 12/24/12 05:33 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Breeding is no "sure thing" training is no "sure thing", best bet, is good breeding and lots of time in the feild. You will still have culls, but alot less, than breeding a dink to a dink, and leaving them on a chain or in a kennel.
Just my experience.
_________________________


"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2370169 - 12/24/12 10:53 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Duane@ssu]
gregs Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 196
Loc: northern MN
All have different personalities and some are just not right. Breeding definately helps some but some will be differentand some will wash out..Greg

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#2370310 - 12/25/12 01:44 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
i must be missing something here. From what i have seen a dog who is to be strictly a decoy dog for the majority of guys one here need a pretty small skill set.
Im basing this on what i see repeatedly on here.

#1 must be good with the family. I see that constantly. Cant say how many times i hear "family pet will be his main job" well that doesnt require any special blue ribbon bloodline. You can pick up a mut from any dog pound that will make a great pet.

#2 must be obedient and handle well. any hunting dog or pet for that matter should have a desire to please its master. If you put in your time the dog should do his part regardless of bloodlines. I have seen some dogs out of trophy stock that i would just soon shoot in the head than try to handle. Then i have seen some muts that handle like a dream.

#3 must have some drive and want to hunt. We are not talking about your dog putting on 16 miles a day running a track, or standing treed for hours. we are talking about a dog ether sitting by your side while you call, or running around and checking things out or even for some of you guys running up to a mile out and checking back in from time to time. This is also something i feel like you could get from almost any cross pretty steadily.

#4 they need to have a mix of teeth and reverse. not too much of one or the other. well to me that just totally fits several different breeds all together, not bloodline specific.

#5 They need to have enough nose to smell a two min old track. And if a decoy dog is tracking a coyote its because he is shot and bleeding. Doesnt take much nose to find a shot bleeding yote five to fifteen min old. Pretty much any cur, hound, or terrier should be able to accomplish this fairly easily.

And i dont personally think that 99% of guys on here will ever hunt their decoy dog to truly wear them out, or require any extreme endurance.

Now i know some of you guys use your dogs for much more than just decoying yotes. But then they are not strictly decoy dogs so thats a different conversation.

So after looking at it from that point of view, just how important is breeding in a decoy dog?
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2370449 - 12/25/12 09:34 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
SHampton Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 1778
Loc: BAOklahoma
#1 must be good with the family. I see that constantly. Cant say how many times i hear "family pet will be his main job" well that doesnt require any special blue ribbon bloodline. You can pick up a mut from any dog pound that will make a great pet...............................

I think there are a lot of "decoy dogs" that are nothing more than companions on stand simply because guys don't hunt them enough or just can't put enough coyotes in front of them to give them experience and make them better.

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#2370453 - 12/25/12 09:38 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming
Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
i must be missing something here. From what i have seen a dog who is to be strictly a decoy dog for the majority of guys one here need a pretty small skill set.
Im basing this on what i see repeatedly on here.

#1 must be good with the family. I see that constantly. Cant say how many times i hear "family pet will be his main job" well that doesnt require any special blue ribbon bloodline. You can pick up a mut from any dog pound that will make a great pet.

#2 must be obedient and handle well. any hunting dog or pet for that matter should have a desire to please its master. If you put in your time the dog should do his part regardless of bloodlines. I have seen some dogs out of trophy stock that i would just soon shoot in the head than try to handle. Then i have seen some muts that handle like a dream.

#3 must have some drive and want to hunt. We are not talking about your dog putting on 16 miles a day running a track, or standing treed for hours. we are talking about a dog ether sitting by your side while you call, or running around and checking things out or even for some of you guys running up to a mile out and checking back in from time to time. This is also something i feel like you could get from almost any cross pretty steadily.

#4 they need to have a mix of teeth and reverse. not too much of one or the other. well to me that just totally fits several different breeds all together, not bloodline specific.

#5 They need to have enough nose to smell a two min old track. And if a decoy dog is tracking a coyote its because he is shot and bleeding. Doesnt take much nose to find a shot bleeding yote five to fifteen min old. Pretty much any cur, hound, or terrier should be able to accomplish this fairly easily.

And i dont personally think that 99% of guys on here will ever hunt their decoy dog to truly wear them out, or require any extreme endurance.

Now i know some of you guys use your dogs for much more than just decoying yotes. But then they are not strictly decoy dogs so thats a different conversation.

So after looking at it from that point of view, just how important is breeding in a decoy dog?


Now I am confused. How did "Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform?" turn into what is needed for a decoy dog. Sounds like you have decoy dogs all figured out. lol

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#2370734 - 12/25/12 02:08 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
No, not at all. The op just didnt seem to be going anywhrre other than you need a good bloodline. So i decided to take a good look at that.

Im hoping someone will prove me wrong. I wont beat around the bush anymore. I continue to see guys who have almost no knowledge what so ever of hunting dogs giving advice. It shows pretty clear to me. A perfect example was posted even after i started this thread. In the thread about shocking a dog.

I keep hearing about the stellar breading behind these decoy dogs. And the loads of hunt drive. Why because they follow you around the desert? I dont think 90% of these guys really know anything at all about the breeding of their dog, or what makes that cross good or bad. But we keep hearing about how important the blood is.

This is not directed at anyone. It is just the general attitude of a talk forum that gets me.

So, someone please prove me wrong!

Merry Christmas !
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2370758 - 12/25/12 02:29 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
roode301 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 1424
Loc: western ohio
I say if it is a mutt on mutt cross and it does everthing the owner wants it to do then in their eyes it's a good dog. I thinks good blood sure helps but that does not make the dog. I have a pup that I'm going to have around 2000.00 in when she is done and I have know idea if she is going to be good or not that is the chance I took. If she does not turn out it is going to be the most expencive FREE dog anyone around here will have. I will try again. A trud is a turd no matter the breeding.IMO

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#2370835 - 12/25/12 04:35 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming
Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
No, not at all. The op just didnt seem to be going anywhrre other than you need a good bloodline. So i decided to take a good look at that.

Im hoping someone will prove me wrong. I wont beat around the bush anymore. I continue to see guys who have almost no knowledge what so ever of hunting dogs giving advice. It shows pretty clear to me. A perfect example was posted even after i started this thread. In the thread about shocking a dog.

I keep hearing about the stellar breading behind these decoy dogs. And the loads of hunt drive. Why because they follow you around the desert? I dont think 90% of these guys really know anything at all about the breeding of their dog, or what makes that cross good or bad. But we keep hearing about how important the blood is.

This is not directed at anyone. It is just the general attitude of a talk forum that gets me.

So, someone please prove me wrong!

Merry Christmas !


LOL I just thought maybe you were going to get into the decoy dog business. Just breed any two dogs that come along. I wish I could tell you. You are right after seeing some of the stuff on here me and my dogs are really just a screwed up mess.

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#2370889 - 12/25/12 05:50 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jglynn Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 1787
Loc: Southeast Oklahoma
Jesse, i figure you can make just about any dog a decoy dog. i would just think that a lap dog or a great dane would not be the choice to go with, both for different reasons.

there are alot of breeds i would never consider. not saying it couldnt be done, but certain breeds will have natural hunting abilities.

i think a person needs to figure out what they want there dog to do on stand and then find a dog that is capable to do that.

some guys like myself has a dog that doesnt range alot while others have dogs that will travel a long ways and actually "toll" a coyote back. now, guys that have dogs like me, can probably use about any dog. but the guys that have dogs that travel a mile or so and actually find a coyote probably needs a good hunting breed type of dog.

this is just my opinion. and i will add, if i knew before i got my dog that there were dogs that acutally go out and find you a coyote, a true decoy/tolling dog, that is the direction i would have went. lesson learned. do your homework before you get into something!!!
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#2370986 - 12/25/12 07:27 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
So does the bloodline make them range? (Not being a smart azz here, this is a seriouse question)

Are certain breeds more apt to range? Or is it in the training?

Im not saying that a good bloodline isnt a good thing. For instance Duane makes it clear that his dogs are very versatile, and they will and do about anything you could need from a dog. He is breeding for nose grit, endurance........ With the type of breeding he is doing i truly think you could get a dog from him and make a tree dog, a cow dog, a cat dog, pretty versatile.

Now if all you are wanting is purely a decoy dog, do you need all of that? What are the desired traits that should be bred for to make the ideal decoy spacific dog?
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2370995 - 12/25/12 07:32 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Dustballs, i tries that once, and it didnt work, i just ended up bringing Ryan a truck load of culls! A few other members got some free ones also. But i couldnt afford it for long since i gave them away, and had to deliver the dogs everywhere from Oklahoma City to Indiana! I knew i should have payed more attention in economics!
Hahahahaha
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2371022 - 12/25/12 07:58 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
ha, jesse she might not have made a decoy dog but the guy i give that female to sure likes her for a pet
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nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2371058 - 12/25/12 08:27 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Did any of the pups out of her turn out?
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2371115 - 12/25/12 09:17 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
she had 4, one died, i dont know about the female, she was doing good the last i heard, one of the males made a jam up hog dog but is layed up, he got cut from the should back into his hip awhile back, the one i kept ended up making a good all round dog, i sold him to a guy and he's using him as a decoy dog, really seems to like him, he was sure making a good coyote dog. after i figured out the cross seemed to work i have try to breed her back 2 different times, didnt take either time


Edited by trapper2 (12/25/12 09:18 PM)
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nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2371144 - 12/25/12 09:46 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Thats too bad. She had the makings of a good dog, i just let her sit around on a chain too long.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2371197 - 12/25/12 10:35 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
yea she had some good pups but was just a "me too" dog herself, i'm like you, i think if a guy had started her younger she would have made a good dog
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nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2371244 - 12/25/12 11:24 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
So are you saying there is hope for my decoy dog program after all! Hahaha.

I for one am not ashamed to admit that i have ruined more than one dog by leaving on the chain. I just have a hard time getting motivated on anything other than running dogs.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2371275 - 12/26/12 12:07 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jglynn Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 1787
Loc: Southeast Oklahoma
as for ranging/hunting, not just running wild, will a shih tzu work??? maybe but im guessing not. like you have said, it doesnt take alot to be a decoy dog. i would just think if the dog was more of a hunting type dog, the training curve would be easier.

like i said earlier, it is all in what you want your dog to do. if it is going to have to cover alot of land looking for coyotes it will need endurance and a good nose. if it is just going to sit beside you and go at one once it comes in, than almost anything would work.

i would just pick the dog that fits your needs as far as at home and in the field.

myself, i dont want to feed a 125 lb. dog just to be a companion on stand. if that is all i want i dont want a dog that will break me with a food bill. the dog should earn his own keep.
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#2371297 - 12/26/12 12:46 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
No, not at all. The op just didnt seem to be going anywhrre other than you need a good bloodline. So i decided to take a good look at that.

Im hoping someone will prove me wrong. I wont beat around the bush anymore. I continue to see guys who have almost no knowledge what so ever of hunting dogs giving advice. It shows pretty clear to me. A perfect example was posted even after i started this thread. In the thread about shocking a dog.

I keep hearing about the stellar breading behind these decoy dogs. And the loads of hunt drive. Why because they follow you around the desert? I dont think 90% of these guys really know anything at all about the breeding of their dog, or what makes that cross good or bad. But we keep hearing about how important the blood is.

This is not directed at anyone. It is just the general attitude of a talk forum that gets me.

So, someone please prove me wrong!

Merry Christmas !
SPOT ON
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LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2371299 - 12/26/12 12:49 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
i must be missing something here. From what i have seen a dog who is to be strictly a decoy dog for the majority of guys one here need a pretty small skill set.
Im basing this on what i see repeatedly on here.

#1 must be good with the family. I see that constantly. Cant say how many times i hear "family pet will be his main job" well that doesnt require any special blue ribbon bloodline. You can pick up a mut from any dog pound that will make a great pet.

#2 must be obedient and handle well. any hunting dog or pet for that matter should have a desire to please its master. If you put in your time the dog should do his part regardless of bloodlines. I have seen some dogs out of trophy stock that i would just soon shoot in the head than try to handle. Then i have seen some muts that handle like a dream.

#3 must have some drive and want to hunt. We are not talking about your dog putting on 16 miles a day running a track, or standing treed for hours. we are talking about a dog ether sitting by your side while you call, or running around and checking things out or even for some of you guys running up to a mile out and checking back in from time to time. This is also something i feel like you could get from almost any cross pretty steadily.

#4 they need to have a mix of teeth and reverse. not too much of one or the other. well to me that just totally fits several different breeds all together, not bloodline specific.

#5 They need to have enough nose to smell a two min old track. And if a decoy dog is tracking a coyote its because he is shot and bleeding. Doesnt take much nose to find a shot bleeding yote five to fifteen min old. Pretty much any cur, hound, or terrier should be able to accomplish this fairly easily.

And i dont personally think that 99% of guys on here will ever hunt their decoy dog to truly wear them out, or require any extreme endurance.

Now i know some of you guys use your dogs for much more than just decoying yotes. But then they are not strictly decoy dogs so thats a different conversation.

So after looking at it from that point of view, just how important is breeding in a decoy dog?
This was just a Tony Tebb ad Jesse.
_________________________
LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2371579 - 12/26/12 12:09 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
I am on his payroll!
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2372016 - 12/26/12 06:44 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Devin69 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Craig Colorado
I knew it. lol
_________________________
LIGHTNING RIDGE KENNELS Walker breeding at it's best Used to Catch Big Game Our choice is as simple as Black and White

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#2372280 - 12/26/12 09:25 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
j.hennes Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 202
Loc: montana
I know that when I posted about breeding, I was referring to my dogs (Plott hounds) and the way I use them (trail and tree dogs). I hunt lions, bobcats, bears and the occasional coyote. If the op was queried on decoy dogs, I missed that.

A scent hound that will trail and tree operates on instinct, I almost never brag on my dogs. Why? I didn't breed them and scent hound performance is mostly instinct and therefore breeding. When I do brag them up, it is when they learn something, such as obedience or handle type things. Or if they work out an impossible loss. Things that require intelligence and not instinct.

I have used my male Plott hound for decoying coyotes, but he really doesn't have the brakes needed, he has run too many animals to now begin playing tag with them. I do feel that if I had worked him as a pup on recall, he would have figured it out, but he was about 5 or 6 when we first started playing around with decoying. It all began when he was conversing with a coyote and was able to call the 'yote in to about 400 yds, he was on a chain the whole time.

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#2372405 - 12/26/12 10:33 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Jesse, if your pimpin Tony Tebbe, how long before your start breeding anything that stands still, and selling them as "decoy doys", As you said, "it ain't that hard".
You wanna get in the game, come on, if you think it takes "nothing" to make a decoy dog, you should be able to create plenty.The first year or so you can fool a few, after that, if they make it thats great, if they don't you are out of buss. But go ahead and make a go of it.Competion makes all dogs better.
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"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2372602 - 12/27/12 06:04 AM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Take it easy Duane. This thread has nothing to do with TT. I clearly posted that i dont think i have the decoy dogs figured out. All i want is for someone to explain to me why bloodlines are so important when breeding (decoy only) dogs.

Duane. I have absolutly no interest in decoy dogs. I dont understand why we cant have any conversation without it turning into TT. But im not an idiot, please dont treat me as one.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2372879 - 12/27/12 12:16 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
UphillDoc Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 157
Loc: Idaho
I think there are alot of different angles to consider on this thread.

Most dogs never amount to much because they just arent hunted enough, plain and simple. But for the average weekend hunter it wont take much dog to make them happy.

Dogs that are hunted hard will underperform from being sore, stressed, and just showing a hole in their breeding.

The topic seemed to switch to what does it take to make a "decoy dog" and the answer depends on what you think a "decoy dog" is, IMO.
Some folks would not consider a dog that just sits on the stand with the caller and helps locate shot coyotes a "decoy dog" It wont take much to fill that role. Most any companion dog could fill the bill. The dogs that go out and find/work coyotes and bring them back to the gun (tolling) are a different story. Its not a coincidence that alot of folks are using the same type dogs.

Take care.
_________________________
Im only responsible for what I say...not for what you understand.

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#2373043 - 12/27/12 02:29 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
the impactzone Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 2297
Loc: texas
In reference to the OP,
I got a golden retriever from a fat girl down the street when I was 17, he was your typical city golden retriever, bandana wearing ,chasing Frisbees and tennis balls at 1.5 years old. I picked up a copy of water dog in January and wore the pages out as well as him 2 hours a day on a lake , by the next duck season I had what would be called a finished dog, hand and whistle commands , no e-collar would cast out several hundred yards to find a bird, he would drop one retrieve and go to another on hand and whistle commands, fast forward a few years,

I’m in school in Colorado, and have to move from one Apt to another that won’t let me have a dog, ask a friend if he can board him for the summer till I get a new place, he says sure, he is on the other side of town so I only get to see the dog once a week and try to work him when I can, well Duck season rolls around, I have a new place, I pick up the dog and he is wearing a bandana and has a tennis ball in his mouth? The guys girl friend is trying to tell me to bring him back after the hunt season? In like a week right? (NOT)
I work him for a few days trying to brush off the rust, he does ok and I think once in the field he will snap to it. His first retrieve he takes the duck to the other side of the pond and starts to eat it and won’t respond to commands. He gets a good AZZ kicking and I figure it will work out, he works only ok the rest of the day, didn't have his heart in it. next hunt 3 days later we run into some other hunters and he wants to follow their dog and play like he was in the park , I was embarrassed, called my friend and told him to come pick up the dog if he wants him, being still in school I had no time to retrain the dog and he might as well keep it. In 4 months he and his girlfriend had ruined the dog.

So I would say what your friends/family do when you’re not around can affect your dog’s performance.
_________________________
Phil
lets change the game, put the Can on, turn the Lights out, and the Dog loose.

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#2373347 - 12/27/12 07:11 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
So doc, do you think that an average companion dog could make a tolling dog that ranges out and works coyotes? What type of breeding do you look for to make that kind of dog?

Now we are getting to where i was hoping to go!

Just to be sure everyone knows, i have no alterer motive here. Just trying to squeeze some good info and conversation out of you guys. Sometimes it takes some prodding! hahaha
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

Top
#2373510 - 12/27/12 08:43 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
jglynn Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 1787
Loc: Southeast Oklahoma
here is my vision of a good decoy dog....

a decent nose that will wind a coyote and can track one after a shot. not a cold nose that want to run everything he smells.

enuf hunt to want to go out and range around and hopefully a coyote sees it while hearing my calling and actually decoys in to the set.

very low aggression so it will not want to fight but can defend itself when it has to.

and smarts enough to realize that it is a game they have to play with the coyote and his prize comes when he does his job correct and you kill a coyote.

now im sure alot of breeds fit this dog discribed, i myself just like a yellow dog....hahaha

alot of guys probably would rather shoot my dog as feed him, but for me, he is picking up well and doing pretty much what i want him to. he seems to range a little further each trip. left for over 5 minutes tonite well over 500 yards away and finally came hauling a$$ back with 2 coyotes in toll. of course, i missed!
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#2373619 - 12/27/12 09:35 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
UphillDoc Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 157
Loc: Idaho
Jesse-No, I dont think the average companion dog will work as a true decoy dog, especially for the owner who isnt a weekend warrior that only gets out for a few hours, 4-6 times a month.
I think it takes a combo of hunt, brains and grit to make a real decoy dog. I think thats why the curs seem to have taken to the role so well. They have enough hunt to get them out of your lap, but not so much they blow out of the country, hound style. Brains can make up for a little lack of hunt or grit, but most folks wont be workin poodles as decoy dogs. Grit is needed to get the dogs to go back over and over, despite being sore or outnumbered. Too much grit and they just run alot of coyotes off...not enough grit and you cant throw them at the coyotes once they quit ya.

Take care.
_________________________
Im only responsible for what I say...not for what you understand.

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#2377358 - 12/30/12 08:55 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Jesse, I was just playing along with you. There are a few guys that can wear out a dog, or dogs, If dogs are working right, they are good for a day or so, if the conditions are good.That is why some guys get by with one dog, and other guys have a handful.A dog sitting by ya when you are calling, will never get "run out" a dog that is ranging 1 mile circles nonstop, will get "used up" when it gets warm.
As for a "true decoy dog", I don't have one, never have, yotes only trully work dogs about 3 months out of the year.The rest of the year, those dogs need a job, for me that is running cats, or blood trailing, or just simple recovery, or working cattle, or chasing hogs. So you are right, I want a dog that can earn feed, when its not decoying yotes. That in my mind does not mean eat cheetos, and sleep on the couch in the off season.I guess we all have our own ideas of what a dog needs to do. Some day we will set a "standard " for decoy dogs, till then I guess any dog that will sit by a guy, and chew on a dead yote "fits the bill". If that makes a guy happy that is great.
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"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2378109 - 12/31/12 12:37 PM Re: Biggest reason a dog doesnt preform? [Re: Jesse lackey]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
So here we are, back to the 'ol question of what is a decoy dog! hahaha! See i knew i would get some good info flowing here, just had to keep prodding!

Believe me i would rather talk hounds than decoy dogs, but nobody wants to talk hounds. So when i say training, raising and breeding them is easy it gets you guys talking. Thats what this forum is all about!

Guys like Duane, Ryan, Doc, Tony............. Who hunt their decoy dogs hard and use the crap out of them know what it takes to keep them in shape. If you hunt your dogs every day, you know what causes bad days. I guarantee these guys know exactly what they can and cant get away with when it comes to their dogs. They know how each dog will react to different things. They may not look at it as doing something to keep from having a bad day, but the knowledge is still there!

Im not saying that any one is a lesser person for not being able to hunt their dogs every day. All this is about is the simple fact that lots of guys will never use a dog enough to get that dog to its full potential. So with some insight from these guys who use them hard, you might be able to avoid some bad days, and mistakes that you may never be able to fix!
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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