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#2279879 - 08/30/12 09:10 AM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Tony, with all due respect, it's gonna take more than confidence for a dog to handle themself at night back this way.
For comparative purposes, here's an adult male SW desert coyote:

And here's an adult male eastern coyote, fully double the body weight of a desert coyote.


You could ask any coon hunter around here in NY/PA about having their 80+lb. coon hounds run back to the truck after dark by a pack of coyotes. And these are big, gritty dogs gettin' spooked!
To think that a single ~50lb. decoy dog can 'handle' that type of adversary is asking for a large vet bill, or a shovel to dig the hole.
And to reference that a single dog would actually bay/catch a coyote alone at night in the desert might be a stretch, but if you say so? But to think that would happen here with our coyotes is absolutely ludicris! Any houndsman runnin' coyotes here will tell you same.

The fact that a single dog can/does catch your desert coyotes is testament to the fact of how easy they must be for a dog to handle. Not only in their 50% smaller size, but their overall willingness to interact with a dog. Maybe they just don't see dogs as a threat? Don't know & not making a slight against any of your dogs, just making an honest deductive assessment.
And here's how I come to that conclusion:

A single dog can catch multiple coyotes in a single night in the SW desert.

Houndsmen here in the NE use a pack of working bred 50-90 lb. trailhounds to catch a single coyote here! And even that feat takes several hours and many, many miles!!!

IF we are to believe what you say about a single dog catching coyotes on its own at night, that just goes toward proving how vastly different our respective coyotes really are. Cuz there ain't no way that is gonna happen up this way with these big coyotes.

I feel that a decoy dog here at night would be more fighting for its life than it would trying to decoy/bay/catch one.

We do have some 20 lb. dogs running around here at night though. They're called fox... wink




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#2279945 - 08/30/12 11:09 AM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
I totally agree that the coyotes back East are much, much larger than the ones in the SW. Heck, I've had my share of coon hounds run back to the house, including myself, after being chased by coyotes, growing up in Illinois. smile

When I say "confident dog", I don't mean one that is a balls-to-the-wall killer. I'm talking about one that has the confidence to engage, yet the experience to know how to sidestep and work coyotes. I've watched upwards to 6 coyotes chase the dog as a group at night. Twice, I've watched a group of 8 during the day. Guess what I'm trying to say is brains need to equal the confidence.

Watch tonight's show and you'll see Gunner with his hands full on a "not average" sized SW coyote.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2279966 - 08/30/12 12:02 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
UphillDoc Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 157
Loc: Idaho
knockemdown-I would say Tony is probably confusing his dog catchin coyotes, with coyotes catchin his dog. It would be a very rare dog, of ANY kind, that would be catching coyotes that dont want to be caught, at night solo.
Even a big stag can be run back to the truck if they get a pack of coyotes after em. They may ruin one or two, but in the end, the coyotes will win that war...Out West or back East. There are big coyotes in both places, but it doesnt take big coyotes to whip dogs off...I have seen lots of dogs that "should" be able to handle one, not be up to the task. Truth is, most trail hounds wont actually kill a coyote themselves, and most decoy dogs only get tough after the sound of the gun. Neither is bred with killing as the priority, IMO.

Take care.
_________________________
Im only responsible for what I say...not for what you understand.

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#2280013 - 08/30/12 01:06 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
Not confused at all Doc. smile

Again, watch tonight's episode of my show. First scene...Gunner catches a missed coyote at the PM hunt this year. His son and my Dixie dog catch up with them and they get it killed. Last scene....the most exciting coyote decoy dog action caught on film.

The nighttime catching and baying solo...been there quite a few times with clients. Sometimes within 200 yards, sometimes a mile. Either way, it's definitely happened.

Again, not confused or talking out my arse. smile

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2280021 - 08/30/12 01:23 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
the impactzone Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 2297
Loc: texas
I woke up after a long rough night to chew my arm off so I didn't wake her up, does that count?
_________________________
Phil
lets change the game, put the Can on, turn the Lights out, and the Dog loose.

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#2280028 - 08/30/12 01:32 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
Hahahaha. Fortunately, I've never had to do that Phil. lol

Instead of having to wait till tonight, I released Episode 5 of my show now. You'll see why everyone who hunts with me, loves this dog and why I'd lay down my life for him.

Check it out at: www.PredatorUniversity.com/tv

Tony


Edited by TonyTebbe (08/30/12 05:13 PM)
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2280033 - 08/30/12 01:46 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
the impactzone Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 2297
Loc: texas
thanks Tony, and I"ll have you know that thing tracked me down and wailled outside my door like a love sick courger, my 75 year old landlord looked at me and Said Boy you need to raise your standards even if this is Alaska
_________________________
Phil
lets change the game, put the Can on, turn the Lights out, and the Dog loose.

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#2280037 - 08/30/12 01:54 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
roode301 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 1424
Loc: western ohio
Ok guys let't not do this again.I don't want my dog to catch them or bay them up want the dog to work them and increase my odds. If I wanted to catch or run them with hounds I would go back and do that again been there done that. We had a kill dog that was a plott,pit,greyhound cross that walked through any coyote we put him on but at times it got a little harry. They also don't pack up here most I have ever seen was three toegher and they were pups.

Tony what does one of your started dog cost or to train a dog PM me if you want to. Thanks Steve OH and I will be watching you can bet on it.

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#2280048 - 08/30/12 02:17 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
I don't have any problems talking about it here. Heck, it's YOUR thread. smile

I charge $300 for a weaned pup. I tell guys to take their pup home, love them, let them be pups, introduce them to the family, kids, park, neighbors, house, vehicle, etc... Let them bond with the family, as they are a member. Teach them to come, stay, sit, and all the other things that a disciplined and controllable dog needs. Bring them back to me between 10-12 months old for an intensified training session of 2-3 months. I charge $400/month for training and that includes food and board.

I used to do puppy training and I have some still grandfathered into the old training program, but dogs that have went home as pups and came back for a crash coarse, turned out the be the much better, well balanced dog.

I do have 3 young 6-7 month old males here, of various breeds. Two are kennel raised and one is ranch raised. Being outside males, none would make good house dogs, if that's what you're looking for. They've had only minimal training at this point. One I just got back this morning from a buddy, who bought it as a puppy for hog hunting, but got out of the dogs and sold them all. He's been on a few hogs and I plan on getting him on coyotes, asap.

Hope that helps.

Thanks....Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2280054 - 08/30/12 02:36 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
OK just watched the episode.
The coyote they 'caught' was a YOY, maybe 15 lbs.? And that was three dogs on one pup coyote?? That's a bit more believable...

The last stand was obviously a larger coyote, maybe 35 lbs, tops? If so, that would be a smaller than an average adult female here in NY. Big males are over 50lbs and average in the mid to high 40s.

Either way, that coyote was not taking any chit and had the gloves dropped. Looked like a good spat before a couple seconds when Gunner "turned". Guys who know bulldogs know that happens when they are gettin' the short end of the stick...
Seeing as how Gunner basically "turned" away from a decent sized coyote after not easily dominating it in the first few seconds, then proceeded to "turn" again and opt to run away from a second engagement, that just proves my point even more about a single dog handling a decent sized coyote. Remember, that coyote is likely still smaller than an average female coyote back this way.

I encourage everyone to WATCH Tony's dogfight video!

Watch it a few times and see how Gunner has enough and turns away from the aggressive coyote. Guys who know bulldogs know this is the first signs of a dog that is going to quit.
Then, watch again how when the coyote gives chase, Gunner no longer wants any part of the fight. That's all well & good, since I feel that is what a good decoy dog is supposed to do!
As you watch, just imagine if there were two, or more coyotes there that were both bigger than that single coyote Gunner ran from.

How would that stand end up? NOT GOOD methinks...

If one decent sized coyote can change Gunner's mind about engaging, then I shudder to think what three bigger coyotes with the same bad intentions would do???

As easily as that 'big for NM, tiny for NY' coyote shrugged off Gunner and made him quit fighting (he turned & stopped), it's not hard to imagine him, or any other dog, could easily wind up seriously hurt or even kilt by two or more large eastern coyotes.

Cool video, I'm glad you put it up. Good thing you shot that coyote before something really bad happened...

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#2280073 - 08/30/12 03:14 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
The stand went as planned. Gunner engaged coyote, pick a fight, then come running back to me...waiting with gun. Difference is, this dominate male jumped Gunner and a scrap pursued. (I despise the dogfight comment) When the coyote had enough and decided to leave, Gunner gave chase and scooped him back up for round 2. I called him off giving chase for round 3 and ended it with a bullet.

I totally agree that multiple coyotes can and will jack a dog up badly. We had 3 jump a female that I was training and the owner and I went out for a few stands, when he picked her up. She shrugged them off of a throat hold and flank hold, and came running back, before Gunner could make it out there to save her. He shot the big male and his female dog charged right out there to decoy the other 2.

Back to the Gunner video stand. You asked how would the stand ended up if there were 2 or 3 big coyotes like that. You'd be dang sure that I'd get up and defend my dog. It's definitely a team effort of hunter and dog to get this kind of stuff done.

The YOY in the first stand. Gunner flat caught it by himself, before the other 2 slower dogs hit the brush. Couldn't tell you how many it took to kill it, but he has definitely done it alone in the past.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2280100 - 08/30/12 03:54 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
UphillDoc Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 157
Loc: Idaho
knockemdown-You saw exactly what I saw. If I was evaluating Gunner as a kill dog, he would fail. If he were caught alone out of sight of the shooter with a pair or more of aggressive coyotes, Tony would be training a replacement.

Tony-Your videos showed what I expected. The coyotes came to catch your dog...not the other way around!
The first coyote was a baby, and you mentioned during the hunt it was hit and "didnt run off too fast" If you could hear your dogs baying, as both you and the shooter stated, then they werent killing it, they were barking at it!
You have said that you had true running dogs before. If so, you should know there is no way that cur dog is going to run down healthy coyotes, that are trying to get away. Its easy to see in Gunners fight video that the coyote is loping away, and Gunner still cant gain ground. If the coyote was head down running away, he would be away from Gunner in just a few jumps. Do trappers dog regularly run down coyotes, and kill them single handed?
If I owned Gunner...as a decoy dog, I would be proud of him as well, since its clear he does a bang up job for you at that task. The video was awesome, and Im glad you took the time to put it together and post it. My only flaw in the whole thing, is the way your trying to overstate it all. Maybe its the salesman in you, maybe your just a tad kennel blind? No need to lie, when the truth will do.
The reason Gunner is the "most talked about decoy dog" may just be, because YOU are the one talking about him?

Take care.
_________________________
Im only responsible for what I say...not for what you understand.

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#2280118 - 08/30/12 04:23 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
roode301 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 1424
Loc: western ohio
Uphill how about you stick to trashing Vargy and leave my thread alone. I asked for info and help not a another I know better than you CRAP!

Kockemdown I understand what you are saying about bigger coyotes and night hunting.

From what I can tell TONYS dog Gunner is awsome at what he does DECOYING COYOTES!

Tony Thanks for the info and I may be in touch with you about a dog.

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#2280136 - 08/30/12 04:48 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: UphillDoc]
UphillDoc Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 157
Loc: Idaho
roode-While I dont mind trashing Vargy...I was simply responding to Tony on this thread. I watched a video, at his request, and came to the same conclusions as knockemdown. Not sure what your problem with my evaluation is, but if you cant find any value in it...you wouldnt be the first. If you decide to send your money to Tony, and get your dog ruined by some coyotes at night, just remember this thread.
I guess you missed the part of my post where I said "If I owned Gunner...as a decoy dog, I would be proud of him as well, since its clear he does a bang up job for you at that task. The video was awesome, and Im glad you took the time to put it together and post it."
If you only want folks to agree with everything you say, maybe the WWW isnt the place for you? Its a big ol world, and theres a chance folks may see things different than you hoped...it happens to me all the time!

Take care.
_________________________
Im only responsible for what I say...not for what you understand.

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#2280146 - 08/30/12 05:05 PM Re: Decoy dogs in the east [Re: roode301]
roode301 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 1424
Loc: western ohio
The Problem I have with what you are saying is You do not know where I hunt or the setup. So don't say I'm going to get my dog ruined.

You maybe a great dog guy as others have said but you don't know everything or my deal.

So no hard feelings But I don't know you and you don't know me so don't say bad things are going to happen to my imaginary dog.

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