Snake bite

E

Ernest II

New member
Does anyone really know about rattlesnake bites. Im talking here where I live Indiana.I squirrel hunt in rattlesnake country. I have seen a few.What are the chances and what should one do if they they get bitten by one of these snakes?
I have done a little reading but still not sure. Are snake proof boots really that protective. I do watch where I sit while out in the forest.
Thanks
Daryl P.
 
Originally Posted By: Ernest IIDoes anyone really know about rattlesnake bites. Im talking here where I live Indiana.I squirrel hunt in rattlesnake country. I have seen a few.What are the chances and what should one do if they they get bitten by one of these snakes?
I have done a little reading but still not sure. Are snake proof boots really that protective. I do watch where I sit while out in the forest.
Thanks
Daryl P.

I'd guess that your chances of being bitten by a rattler in In. would not be too great. That doesn't mean you should be careless.

As for snake proof boots, I don't hunt without them in S. Texas, but we have a lot more snakes than you do up north. Are they really that protective? Prolly not, down here anyway:

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[font:Arial Black]They get pretty big down here. Here is a rattler track in some soft sand which I tracked to (or from) a large brush pile where I lost interest
wink.gif
. The track was wider than my 10EEE boot to put it in perspective.

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I do worry a bit more about the smaller snakes, however, since they are a bit less sluggish and harder to see.

The experts have changed their recommendations as to how to proceed if bitten over the years. When I first started hunting a long time ago, everyone carried a snake bite kit and were advised to make x shaped cuts over fang marks and use the suction cups to suck out the venom. Later they said more damage could be done with this method and some recommended putting ice on the bite to slow movement of venom, then there were the anti-venin kits.

Last I heard, recommended treatment is, if you can get to the hospital within an hour, identify the species of snake (if it can be done safely), try to remain calm, do not use tourniquet or ice and proceed to hospital. That is what I plan to do if, God forbid, I should ever be bitten.

Another thing about snakebite is that not all result in venom being injected for a number of reasons, so not all bites are equal.

Hopefully Chupathingy will weigh in on this thread as he is the resident expert on snakes.

Regards,
hm
 
I have nothing informative to add to the OP's questions...

hm1996, how tall are you? Because holy cow that rattler is huge!

Or are those typical for where you are at?
 
I build fence for a living, so running into snakes happens quite often. He is two we killed a couple weeks ago.

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I have had the pleasure of walking up on a couple of them in their habitat, and believe me, when you hear that rattle go, you jump 3 feet the other way. Yea, that will get the heart pumpin!!!

Point being, they know you aren't food, so they will let you know they are there and give you an opportunity to go a different direction.
 
The cut and suck method has been known to be a bad idea by us in the know for a long time. It can actually aid in the spreading of the venom. Applying a tourniquet also greatly increases the chances of compartment syndrome. HM is right, ID the snake, remain calm and proceed to the hospital. Also, learn the Latin names of the snake species that are indigenous to your AO. This is why. Every body that has ever been to an E.R. was bitten by a rattleheadedcoppermocassin and some doctors may take the wait and see approach as anti-venom can be very valuable in some locations. If you go in and say you've been bitten by a rattler they may think "uh huh", but if you come in and say "I've been bitten by a Crotulus Atrox", it lends credence to your statement and they are more likely to act more swiftly, and time is tissue.

Snake boots and chaps are very effective, albeit usually a PITA if you don't get good ones.

Chupa
 
Thanks for the advice Chupa.

The Latin name makes sense. Last year, a friends sister was bitten by a rattlesnake last year. She did not catch the snake, deciding on an immediate trip to the hospital. When she said it was a rattlesnake, she got the "uh-huh' treatment and NO Anti-venom.

A local farmer was bit by a cottonmouth this summer. He also did not bring the snake, but was given anti-venom immediately.

I'm guessing they thought the "girley" didn't know what a rattlesnake was, but a man has to know.

Shayne
 
Originally Posted By: bwagsI thought this might be interesting for those who are interested in this thread...

http://www.wimp.com/snakevenom/

Good video. But not all venoms have the coagulating component. In fact, some venoms cause hemophilia, and will cause death due to massive internal bleeding. Some attack the central nervous system and death due to asphyxia, and some cause necrosis. Want proof that god has a sense of humor? The vast majority of the snakes with the highest toxicity levels are very un-inclined to bite with out severe provocation. God gives them the infinite ability to kill and then says "But, don't you do it!". It's often said that the most "dangerous" snake in the world is the black mamba(dendro aspes poly Lepus) or the saw scale viper. That's not because of its toxicity, in the grand scheme of things they aren't that toxic. But they are both notoriously aggressive and live in close proximity to humans that live in under developed countries. An inland tai pan or any of the various krates are tens of times more toxic than the mamba or saw scale, but they just don't bite and are very doscile. But if you agitate one to the point of getting bit, you're toast.

Chupa
 
Two years ago we ran into a nest of baby snakes that had rattles on their tails.
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Not knowing anything other than that we now knew that there were indeed snakes where we chukar hunt. So now I wear gaiters (sp?)

It's not that inconvenient and it may add a little protection.
 
Missouri has five venomous snakes on record here but really only three are common. I hunt in the Ozark Mountains where copperheads and timber rattlers are supposedly common enough and the cottonmouth moccasin is around lakes and streams. I occasionally run into cottonmouths when fishing but have always tried to give them a wide berth and so far haven’t been much bothered by them. On rare occasion I see a copperhead while spring turkey hunting or during early fall hunting trips. My favorite area to hunt has a bad reputation for rattlesnakes but in all my roaming around there (knock on wood) I have never seen one. A friend that lives on a small farm near there recently killed a heavy bodied five foot rattler during turkey season right exactly where I most like to hunt on the mountain so I know they are around for sure. He has plenty of stories of other “bad snakes” over the years. It is a walk-in Forest Service area and I often put 4 – 6 miles in across some pretty rough country. There aren’t many hunters at all, no cell reception, and the nearest road is about 7 miles away and the nearest house about 15 miles down that road. I most often hunt alone so you can bet I wear Danner snake boots and keep a pretty good eye out because to get a big dose of venom way back in there by yourself would be major trouble. Heck if you didn’t make it out nobody could find you wearing camo and way back in miles and miles of hardwoods forest. Between the coyotes and wild hogs there probably wouldn’t be much to find after a while anyway.
 
I went to a seminar in Indianapolis and back then the thought was by the experts
Do not put ice on bite.
Do not cut skin.
If you have a kit that is for suction it can not hurt.
Do not use your mouth for suction or anyone else`s.
Do not use tourniquet.
Stay calm
Watch for shock and try not to use limb to keep blood flow slow.
Stopping the blood flow can cause loss of limb. The hospital will monitor pulses and cirulation in limb from swelling.
All problems and issues will judged for the need for antivenom.
*Antivenom causes a huge risk of life theatening allergic reaction and can be much more life threatening than the bite it`s self. The experts were really concerned about this!
 
I spent 23 years in Arizona and Texas. I used to hunt snakes while in AZ. I worked at the Herptology Lab at USC when I was a young buck. I worked for Dr. Russel, the Russels' Viper was named after his Grandfather. The Poison Control Center in Tucson had seminars a couple of times a year. Jude McNally would give these seminars. Since I was actively seeking rattle snakes I wanted the best info. Things I've learned over the years. You have about a 30 percent chance of receiving a "dry" bite. Snakes don't like to waste their venom because it takes a lot of their energy to produce it. There are so many variables even with a dry bite because they might have dried venom on their fangs but will activate upon contact with your body fluid. If you induce venom it is best to get to a hospital ASAP. If you have a gun you can dispatch a snake with a little method I used when I "had" to shoot them. I usually caught them alive. If a rattle snake is coiled up, get a safe distance (4 feet or so), level the gun with the snakes head and slowly start moving the gun left to right, extend the barrel within about a foot from the snake. Rattle snakes will usually start tracking the barrel, the slower you move it the better. When the snake is tracking the barrel pull the trigger, this will usualy result in the head being shot off. If it isn't the snake will usually be hurt bad enough you can cut its head off. Take the rest of the snake with you to the ER. The antivenom is species specific. Do not cut yourself, there were tests done in ORs and about the most venom they could extract was about 20 to 30 percent, that's in a operating room, so the kits don't really work. If someone is with you they can deal with the snake. As Chupa said, if you know the species it is very helpful. All rattle snakes fall under the genus Crotalus, so all you need to know is the species. Atrox is a Western Diamondback. That was my Tactical while in the Air Force and is still my licens plate to this day. If you google Jude Mcnally his info will come up. You can contact the Arizona Poison Center and they can give you some real good info. About 80 percent of rattle snake bites involve alcohol. To a snakes way of thinking, they don't want to use their venom, but if they have struck a couple of times without making contact and your still messing with them they will as we used to say "cut loose with the juice", they will inject as much venom as possible, VERY BAD. I used to pick them up for years and years. I had my close call, I was picking up a Mojave and he jerked out from my grip and should have nailed my azz but didn't. 99 out of 100 times your going to get bit, have no idea why I didn't get nailed but was very thankful. A week later I met a guy at an archer shoot who was missing all of the flesh between his thumb and forefinger. Looked like an alien hand, he was telling me he got bit by an Atrox pulling one out of a whole. I decided I'd pushed my luck and quite handling them. So in conclusion, there is really nothing you can do in the field. Get to a hospital ASAP, if you can bring the dead snake do so, take a picture of it if you can. They even suggested if you're within 4 hours of walking you should try to do so. Just try not to get your heart rate up too high. While at USC, the head lab guy was milking a sidewinder which is not a large snake and it jerked out of his grasp and popped him on his middle knuckle of his hand. By 5 that afternoon his arm was 4 times its normal size all the way to his shoulder. You do not want to get popped. For those who told you they've been bit and "it wasn't that bad", they probably didn't induce any venom or very little. If you take a real shot you're gonna be hurtin. The side effects can last years sometimes. Anyway, hope this helps a little...
 
We have lots of copperheads around. I don't worry about
them to much. Some timber rattlers, I've seen and killed 2
in the past 2 years. None before that. Lots and lots of
cottonmouths down by the waterways. Those I worry about when
I'm near the water.

I learned years ago when I was about 10 or 12, don't play in
or near the water lillies around dusk if you're in cottonmouth
territory.
 
Originally Posted By: stanlyI spent 23 years in Arizona and Texas. I used to hunt snakes while in AZ. I worked at the Herptology Lab at USC when I was a young buck. I worked for Dr. Russel, the Russels' Viper was named after his Grandfather. The Poison Control Center in Tucson had seminars a couple of times a year. Jude McNally would give these seminars. Since I was actively seeking rattle snakes I wanted the best info. Things I've learned over the years. You have about a 30 percent chance of receiving a "dry" bite. Snakes don't like to waste their venom because it takes a lot of their energy to produce it. There are so many variables even with a dry bite because they might have dried venom on their fangs but will activate upon contact with your body fluid. If you induce venom it is best to get to a hospital ASAP. If you have a gun you can dispatch a snake with a little method I used when I "had" to shoot them. I usually caught them alive. If a rattle snake is coiled up, get a safe distance (4 feet or so), level the gun with the snakes head and slowly start moving the gun left to right, extend the barrel within about a foot from the snake. Rattle snakes will usually start tracking the barrel, the slower you move it the better. When the snake is tracking the barrel pull the trigger, this will usualy result in the head being shot off. If it isn't the snake will usually be hurt bad enough you can cut its head off. Take the rest of the snake with you to the ER. The antivenom is species specific. Do not cut yourself, there were tests done in ORs and about the most venom they could extract was about 20 to 30 percent, that's in a operating room, so the kits don't really work. If someone is with you they can deal with the snake. As Chupa said, if you know the species it is very helpful. All rattle snakes fall under the genus Crotalus, so all you need to know is the species. Atrox is a Western Diamondback. That was my Tactical while in the Air Force and is still my licens plate to this day. If you google Jude Mcnally his info will come up. You can contact the Arizona Poison Center and they can give you some real good info. About 80 percent of rattle snake bites involve alcohol. To a snakes way of thinking, they don't want to use their venom, but if they have struck a couple of times without making contact and your still messing with them they will as we used to say "cut loose with the juice", they will inject as much venom as possible, VERY BAD. I used to pick them up for years and years. I had my close call, I was picking up a Mojave and he jerked out from my grip and should have nailed my azz but didn't. 99 out of 100 times your going to get bit, have no idea why I didn't get nailed but was very thankful. A week later I met a guy at an archer shoot who was missing all of the flesh between his thumb and forefinger. Looked like an alien hand, he was telling me he got bit by an Atrox pulling one out of a whole. I decided I'd pushed my luck and quite handling them. So in conclusion, there is really nothing you can do in the field. Get to a hospital ASAP, if you can bring the dead snake do so, take a picture of it if you can. They even suggested if you're within 4 hours of walking you should try to do so. Just try not to get your heart rate up too high. While at USC, the head lab guy was milking a sidewinder which is not a large snake and it jerked out of his grasp and popped him on his middle knuckle of his hand. By 5 that afternoon his arm was 4 times its normal size all the way to his shoulder. You do not want to get popped. For those who told you they've been bit and "it wasn't that bad", they probably didn't induce any venom or very little. If you take a real shot you're gonna be hurtin. The side effects can last years sometimes. Anyway, hope this helps a little...


Everything said here is 100% accurate. Necrosis is bad enough, but you should see the horrific scars left from treating compartment syndrome! I have seen scars from compartment syndrome that looked like the victom was attacked by a great white. One guy I know has scars that run from his hip to his ankle where the doctors literally had to cut him to the bone full length stem to stern, had to filet him like a fish. It's a morbid topic, but it's real and illustrates the potential dangers.


Chupa
 

When I was a kid, an old lady used to walk up the road past our house on the way to the local country store. She had a limp. Being a kid and nosy, one day I inquired what happened to her foot. She said when she was younger, she was bitten by a copperhead. It crippled her. Of course, medicine and doctors were not as available here in the mountains back then as they are now, but the effects today are still real and dangerous.

Several years ago I read in Outdoor Life, a series of articles pertaining to snake bites, and using electrical charges from batteries to neutralize the poison, even stun guns. I haven't seen nor read any other stories pertaining to this. Has anyone else heard of this? I wonder if it is still considered effective?

HM, man I'm glad I don't have to deal with snakes like that here. I know we have some rattlers, though I have never encounterd one here. That is one heck of a snake, something that makes goose bumps go up my spine.


 
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