Predator Masters using UBB.threads ™ Infopop Corporation.
PM Gear Moon & Weather

Welcome to the Predator Masters Forums
Be sure to visit the main Predator Master website at





PM Gear
PM Gear
PM Gear
The Official Predator Masters Search Engine
Loading

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2242913 - 07/02/12 10:56 AM 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308
dcase Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Ne, USA
6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308

I have been looking at these calibers for several years now. I have read most everything I could get my hands on to help me figure out what would be the best “all-around” AR-15 caliber. I should specify when I say “all-around” I am considering: hunting (varmint to deer size), long range target and hunting, CQC or self-defense, cost per round, accuracy, penetration and “knock-down” power or ft-lbs of energy delivered.

I have read so many articles and there seems to be more “emotion” and “personal taste” than facts and ballistics. My goal here is to present what I was looking for several years ago before spending money on AR uppers. I have 5 different calibers of ARs and love most all of them (see my review of the 450 bushmaster) but I was looking for “one” several years ago and I know many people that are looking for just one upper to meet their many needs. Many people even consider some of the AR-15 calibers against an AR-10 (.308). I have compared many different manufactures of these three rounds with various bullet weights. They have all been fairly consistent. I chose to use Hornady for this comparison just because of their reputation and my experience with them. The ballistics I took from Nikon’s “Spot-On Ballistics Match Technology”. I also looked at Hornady’s ballistics however they only had info going out to 500 yrds. It still remained consistent with other info I have seen. I always say “the proof is in the pudding”. Take a look at the ballistics and look at the ballistic co-efficient (BC) for each of them.

6.8 SPC 120 gr Hornady SST (found as low as $.86 per rd for Hornady and cheapest (Remington) at $.79 per/rd)
Test Barrel (16") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
MUZZLE 100 200 300 400 500
2460/1612 2250/1349 2050/1120 1862/923 1685/756 1522/617

6.5 Grendel 123 gr Hornady A-max (found as low as $.88 per rd for Hornady and cheapest (WolfGold) for $.62 per/rd)
Rifle (16" Barrel) Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
MUZZLE 100 200 300 400 500
2350/1508 2189/1308 2034/1129 1885/971 1744/831 1612/709


.308 155 gr A-max (found as low as $1.04 per/rd for Hornady)
Test Barrel (24") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
MUZZLE 100 200 300 400 500
2850/2795 2639/2397 2438/2045 2245/1735 2062/1463 1887/1225

I would have to say it’s a “no-brainer”. The 6.5 Grendel will outperform the 6.8 SPC in most every way. I have read arguments that the 6.8 SPC is a better CQC rd. This just kills me when I read “the 6.8 will outperform the 6.5 under 300 yards” “go with the 6.5 for long range hunting and the 6.8 for more knock down power”. REALLY…..Why?.......... Kinetic energy is almost EXACTLY the same from muzzle to around 300 yards with the same wt bullet. The difference is so small it is irrelevant. It would seem that there is little difference regarding accuracy at these distances as well (most would agree that the 6.5 always has a slight advantage for accuracy due to BC at any range). However, after 300 yards the 6.5 really takes the lead and the same goes for speed and accuracy. So 0-300 yards they are relatively equal. Look at 500-1000 yard distance and there is no comparison. Why would you not want to have both short and long-range capabilities? In fact, if you compare the 1000 yard ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel with the .308 it is shocking just how close the two are. The 6.5 is slightly faster but slightly less energy due to the lighter bullet. The sectional density is very impressive for the 6.5 so the penetration is most likely better than the .308. I am only making the comparison between a 6.5 to a .308 at “long” distance. There is little comparison regarding speed and energy less than 500 yards. Under 500 yards the .308 is far superior in both.

I have also heard that the 6.8 outperforms the 6.5 with shorter barrel lengths. Go to Hornady and compare the 6.8 SPC 120 gr SST vs. the 6.5 Grendel 123 gr A-max. The 0-500 yard ballistics for both are out of a 16” barrel and are very, very close out to 300 yards where the 6.5 takes the lead in both speed and energy.

What about cost? I have read many articles that supported the 6.8 over the 6.5 due to cost per/rd. The 6.8 has more companies that produce the cartridge however the cost per/rd can be found cheaper for the 6.5 (checkout ammoseek.com). I purchased 500 rds of WolfGold MPT for $12.50 box/20 rds. That is pretty cheap! Word is that Wolf is going to start producing steel cased ammo in 6.5. With the recent release of the “6.5 Grendel” trademark from AA, it is only a matter of time before more companies cash in on this caliber that has been “not so attractive” due to royalties in the past. Currently, I have only found ammo for the 6.5 in 2-3 different manufactures. My hope is that this will change as more people realize the capabilities and reality of this caliber. The cost per/rd from Hornady is about the same. Both are much cheaper than match ammo in the .308.

If you are into re-loading, the 6.5 has a very large selection. Hornady has 14 different selections ranging from 95 gr to 160 gr. The 6.8 also has 14 to select from based on .277 or 270. They both have a good selection for re-loading but currently the 6.8 SPC does enjoy the advantage in the variety of ammo available.

If I had to choose one of the three for everything from: CQC, combat/self-defense, hunting, target shooting at both short and long range, weight of ammunition and rifle, and cost for shooting……….. The 6.5 Grendel wins without a second thought.
I could not figure out why the 6.5 had not been adopted by the military and more embraced by the civilian population for years. Many wanted you to believe it was the lesser of the two cartridges. There were problems with the legal aspects related to name/trademark “6.5 Grendel”. It was a trademark/legal/royalties issue that kept a great cartridge from being produced by most of the mainstream AR companies. The GOOD news is that the 6.5 Grendel has been accepted by SAAMI and that Alexander Arms has agreed to release their trademark on the name "6.5mm Grendel". We should see in the next year a MAJOR growth of companies producing both weapons and ammo in the 6.5. I seriously hope the military will now take a second look at this cartridge for NATO. The history of the 6.5 is as long as it is impressive.

BOTTOM LINE………..do the research (should not take long) and see for yourself. This is a SUPERIOR cartridge for hunting (vermin to medium to large game), short and long distance target shooting, low recoil for younger shooters or faster follow up shots, and cost effective for shooting. If you are limited on “coin” and need to pick one upper to do it all, this is the one.
_________________________
“Freedom of speech is one of our greatest rights and one that few people around the world get to enjoy, so exercise your right”

Top
#2242918 - 07/02/12 11:08 AM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
Widow maker 223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 3346
Loc: Northern IN
So you answered your own question then.

Top
#2242924 - 07/02/12 11:17 AM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
C.Jay Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 784
Loc: Montana
You have convinced me, the 6.5 is the only way to go.
I admire your passion for it. thumbup1
_________________________
Originally Posted By: James Madison
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Top
#2242943 - 07/02/12 12:35 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: Widow maker 223]
dcase Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Ne, USA
I did. I just wanted to provide those in the "decision making" process with the info I was looking for several years ago and a lot of money later. My reviews are in my opinion completely objective and without outside influence. I have only one goal, provide the facts as I have experienced. Knowing now what I know, I would have made a few different decisions. My goal is help others in their decision. LOVE my AR's and love shooting them. There is nothing better than a fine shooting weapon (wife and kids excluded).
_________________________
“Freedom of speech is one of our greatest rights and one that few people around the world get to enjoy, so exercise your right”

Top
#2242949 - 07/02/12 12:44 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
2muchgun Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 13960
Loc: Michigun
I thought many times of buying a 6.5 Grendel upper. Cool little round. Definitely better than the 6.8. Then I saw first hand how easily my RRA 223 would kill yotes and deer via 70 gr. TSXs and kind of gave up on the idea.......
_________________________
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.....

You are still on "ignore"........

Top
#2242972 - 07/02/12 02:17 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: 2muchgun]
dcase Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Ne, USA
Originally Posted By: 2muchgun
I thought many times of buying a 6.5 Grendel upper. Cool little round. Definitely better than the 6.8. Then I saw first hand how easily my RRA 223 would kill yotes and deer via 70 gr. TSXs and kind of gave up on the idea.......


I completely agree! I have had no problems with the 5.56 on deer but only at 100-300 yards. I would not want to shoot a deer beyond 300 yards with a 5.56. That is what I like best about this round is the range!
_________________________
“Freedom of speech is one of our greatest rights and one that few people around the world get to enjoy, so exercise your right”

Top
#2243146 - 07/02/12 08:43 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
Hibs Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 402
Loc: Monterey, CA
Great post! I like all the info you put out there. For guys like myself who don't have time to do all the research and comparisons, this really helps!

Top
#2243158 - 07/02/12 08:58 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
Swandog Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 304
Loc: Cheboygan Co. MI
So little difference in the cartridges at 500 yards it's a draw for me. Something about the Grendel not belt feeding is the reason our military won't use it. The Saudi Army is using the 6.8 SPC now instead of the 5.56. We took a look at the 6.8SPC but the cost of switching is too great even though the 5.56 is a poor man stopper.

6.5 is a great bullet in a Credmore or .260 Rem or even the old Swede 6.5x55

Top
#2243175 - 07/02/12 09:23 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
chefpierre Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 2002
Loc: Da UP of michigan
I agree the 6.5 is superior to the 6.8, but I would choose the 308 every day. Bullets range from 110 to 210 with proper barrel. It can shoot to 1000, but there are better choices. It also has more energy. I have thought about the 6.5, but always go back to why when a 260 rem, 6.5 creedmoor are superior. I don't intend to be contrary just stating my opinion.
_________________________
Luck favors the prepared........Edna Mode

“No matter what is going on in my life, when the sights are aligned and the hammer is about to fall, nothing in the world matters at that second. It’s my nirvana.” - SGT Robert Evans

Top
#2243209 - 07/02/12 09:58 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
TXCOONDOG Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 986
Loc: TX
If you reload then 6.5

If you don't then I would go with 6.8 which I did for the wife.

6.8 forum is a great info resource for the 6.8.


I love the .308 (rifle) and have been kicking around the idea for an AR platform..

Good Luck

Top
#2243210 - 07/02/12 09:58 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
dirtdarte Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 87
Loc: N. Utah
I look at the 6.5 and the 6.8 as a 300yd deer round. It's pretty much a toss which one is better. I know you can do better than 300 yards but I'm talking practical..... as in a practical deer cartridge. I have a Bison 6.8 and love it. I'm even trying to talk myself into using it on a cow elk hunt this year...but, in real terms it's not a powerhouse... just a whole lot better than a .556. If I were to choose one of the calibers you mentioned, it would be the 7.62x51 every time. Of course the drawback is the heavier platform... but for raw power and versatility... the .308 is the way to go. Oh, I do have and use the 6.8 and .308 in the ar platform. The 6.5 is on the shopping list too. It's a sickness...lol.

Top
#2243279 - 07/02/12 11:54 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
semo97 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 388
Loc: Eastern Slope of Rockies
Lots of info, If that is what you want get it. Not all will agree with your choice. I like the 6.5 but it has to be necked down to 6mm. Take your assesment to the 6.8 forum and see what they have to say.

Top
#2243300 - 07/03/12 12:50 AM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: chefpierre]
KlrDrvr Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 397
Loc: South Texas
Personally, if I want a hotter round than a 6.5/.264lbc, I'll take it on a bolt action. I really like the AR platform, but for me, the long(er) action ARs are too much of a good thing. Also too much of some not so good things - too much weight and too much money. My $.02.


Edited by KlrDrvr (07/03/12 12:51 AM)

Top
#2243388 - 07/03/12 08:54 AM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dirtdarte]
dcase Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Ne, USA
Lots of comments on the .308. My intent was not to say that the 6.5 would be better than a .308 but if you have an AR-15 and don’t want to spend the money on a NEW AR-10 the 6.5 Grendel is a great choice that can get you close to or similar capabilities to the AR-10 using your existing AR-15 thus saving you money and weight. My main focus was 6.8 vs. 6.5. When I was doing research to help me decide which one I wanted I thought there was a lot of “miss-information” regarding the 6.8. Example it was a better CQC round and had more “knock-down” power. There really is no facts to back this. As many have pointed out they are so close at 0-300 yards its splitting hairs. My main point is why stop then and limit yourself to a shorter range when you can have a much longer range with better accuracy? I am not saying the 6.8 is a bad round but there are a lot of people like me that were/are looking for “one” AR to serve many needs and I feel that the 6.5 does the best job of serving the most number of needs (accuracy, cost, hunting, range, stopping power). Maybe not the best choice for NATO, time will tell.
_________________________
“Freedom of speech is one of our greatest rights and one that few people around the world get to enjoy, so exercise your right”

Top
#2243571 - 07/03/12 05:01 PM Re: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC vs. .308 [Re: dcase]
Swandog Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 304
Loc: Cheboygan Co. MI
These ballistics for the 6.8 SPCII beat the Grendel big time from this SSA factory load.
500 yards
1639fps
835ft/lbs

Is there enough room in a Grendel case for a 140gr bullet and powder in a magazine length OAL?
http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_140gr_VLD_Berger.aspx


Edited by Swandog (07/03/12 05:06 PM)

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >



Moderator:  OldTurtle, venatic 

Forum Stats
47722 Members
83 Forums
284071 Topics
2686553 Posts

Max Online: 3771 @ 02/03/14 09:55 PM
Today's Birthdays
0ak, Blowchowski, coleridge, Coyote Slayer 1, Dewaine Bogard, DuVy38, eaglecap, howlingNiowa, jayanimal, limpguy, Skychief, timberpatch, varmitzap

© Predator Masters™, All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.