Hooked
New member
This might be an old video but it was new to me..and quite painful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo
GM becoming China Motors?
- Thread starter Hooked
- Start date
tnshootist
New member
Maybe GM will break the chinese.
HunterBear71
New member
Sounds like a good plan to get into the Chinese market and maybe make a profit.
BubbaChicken
New member
The only problem is that the American Taxpayer will not get benefit of the dollars spent, while the Chinese government WILL. In addition, while they are getting benefit of our tech they will STILL be putting it to us (largely because of the way that the unions have ruined us) with their own products, and even with products we consider are ours, yet are manufactured in China, a country that almost owns our own already outright. There are rough waters coming, I can see it every day getting worse.
The global economy is become reality, and we are losing our place in the world. We are going to become absolute slaves to the production of the second and third world countries because we cannot make a cutting board for less than $39.95 apiece. We somehow can build a spacecraft, but cannot whittle.. Oh, sad day...
The global economy is become reality, and we are losing our place in the world. We are going to become absolute slaves to the production of the second and third world countries because we cannot make a cutting board for less than $39.95 apiece. We somehow can build a spacecraft, but cannot whittle.. Oh, sad day...
HunterBear71
New member
China owns about 8 % of U.S. debt. The American taxpayer doesn't own GM and wouldn't even be associated with the company if conservatives were in charge. GM is free to share technology in any manner that they believe will increase profits. The economy really is global and GM is a global company.
BubbaChicken
New member
HB, actually, you are not correct in several things.
First, China owns debt (that you have correct, but I would need to check your percentages to see if they are correct, I have suspicions that they are higher than you stated though, like I said, I have to check - and will). However I said nothing about ONLY debt. As all companies of any size in China are owned primarily by the government there, and they own majority or very large interest in THOUSANDS of US based companies, you are missing a rather large boat!
Second, the American Taxpayer paid for the huge bailouts GM has gotten over the years, including the latest ones.
Third, just as many other things I see you state, you have no idea about technology exchange. Not only is it an illegal act to give military secrets to foreign powers, it is also illegal to give certain PROPRIETARY secrets and manufacturing process details to foreign powers as well, ESPECIALLY countries on certain lists, such as North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, and CHINA. Do some research before you jump on that particular bandwagon, take it from someone that remembers being active duty during the Cold War days, there are those of us who took our duties seriously, and information security is definitely serious business. Unfortunately, those growing up in the last 20-30 years are not all as aware as those of us whom were actively involved in the days when liberal presidents were not giving the sensitive technology and information away to our potential adversaries(even though it is still illegal), as they do now.
GM makes modern tanks for us, has controlling interests in electronics companies that make current weapons systems and communications equipment for us, and also demanded a taxpayer subsidized extortion when Obama came to office, then bails on the US market, taking research and development operations into a hostile foreign land, and is going to not pay back that money. I call that pretty crappy, and the attitude you are presenting is largely why this country is imploding-lack of "code" within the new population. You will get what you want today, even though it will cause the country to implode, so I guess you got yours, right? Yeah, no code.
First, China owns debt (that you have correct, but I would need to check your percentages to see if they are correct, I have suspicions that they are higher than you stated though, like I said, I have to check - and will). However I said nothing about ONLY debt. As all companies of any size in China are owned primarily by the government there, and they own majority or very large interest in THOUSANDS of US based companies, you are missing a rather large boat!
Second, the American Taxpayer paid for the huge bailouts GM has gotten over the years, including the latest ones.
Third, just as many other things I see you state, you have no idea about technology exchange. Not only is it an illegal act to give military secrets to foreign powers, it is also illegal to give certain PROPRIETARY secrets and manufacturing process details to foreign powers as well, ESPECIALLY countries on certain lists, such as North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, and CHINA. Do some research before you jump on that particular bandwagon, take it from someone that remembers being active duty during the Cold War days, there are those of us who took our duties seriously, and information security is definitely serious business. Unfortunately, those growing up in the last 20-30 years are not all as aware as those of us whom were actively involved in the days when liberal presidents were not giving the sensitive technology and information away to our potential adversaries(even though it is still illegal), as they do now.
GM makes modern tanks for us, has controlling interests in electronics companies that make current weapons systems and communications equipment for us, and also demanded a taxpayer subsidized extortion when Obama came to office, then bails on the US market, taking research and development operations into a hostile foreign land, and is going to not pay back that money. I call that pretty crappy, and the attitude you are presenting is largely why this country is imploding-lack of "code" within the new population. You will get what you want today, even though it will cause the country to implode, so I guess you got yours, right? Yeah, no code.
BubbaChicken
New member
Take a look at these statistics, you will find them interesting, HB..
The primary holders of the US debt are the Fed Reserve (through a shell game of "Quantitative Easing" whereby they sell notes to themselves, using created credits (they print more money then spend it to get it onto the street, thus causing inflation and screwing things up worse)), second place is the Social Security Fund (which actually comes out of the General Fund of the US and is another program that simply creates more money as needed), and number three, CHINA. Yep, that makes China the number ONE debt holder of US debt, because the other two are shell game US programs!!!
Here are some other interesting factoids:
Of the largest REAL holders of US debt, they are as follows:
China, 1.2 TRILLION
US citizens (treasury bills and investments), 959 Billion
Japan, 912 Billion
UK, 347 Billion
Brazil, 211 Billion
Taiwan, 153 Billion
Hong Kong, 122 Billion.
Look at the disparity, and tell me China does not own our debt. Like I said go do some research.
The primary holders of the US debt are the Fed Reserve (through a shell game of "Quantitative Easing" whereby they sell notes to themselves, using created credits (they print more money then spend it to get it onto the street, thus causing inflation and screwing things up worse)), second place is the Social Security Fund (which actually comes out of the General Fund of the US and is another program that simply creates more money as needed), and number three, CHINA. Yep, that makes China the number ONE debt holder of US debt, because the other two are shell game US programs!!!
Here are some other interesting factoids:
Of the largest REAL holders of US debt, they are as follows:
China, 1.2 TRILLION
US citizens (treasury bills and investments), 959 Billion
Japan, 912 Billion
UK, 347 Billion
Brazil, 211 Billion
Taiwan, 153 Billion
Hong Kong, 122 Billion.
Look at the disparity, and tell me China does not own our debt. Like I said go do some research.
HunterBear71
New member
Bubba, i have no idea what you are trying to say. China owns about 8% of publicaly held U.S. debt. Most U.S. debt is held by U.S. citizens. Foreign holdings of U.S. debt are about 30% of total debt. China has about 26% of these foreign holdings. To claim that China owns the U.S. is just ridiculous and really serves no purpose. China does enjoy an enormous trade advantage but they are still a long way from our standard of living and technological achievements. If it is very important for you to be correct, then I will concede that you are right. I actually think you do have some valid points about technology exchange and that is an area of legitimate concern.
BubbaChicken
New member
HB, it isn't about who is "right" it is about the fact that more debt is held by china than by us citizens! Tell you what I will go get you a link so that you can see where I got this information.
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How Much U.S. Debt Does China Really Own?
From Tom Murse
See More About:
debt limit
us debt
us deficit
us economy
How Much U.S. Debt Does China Really Own?
"Debt to China"
Cartoons such as this tend to overestimate the amount of U.S. debt held by China.
Copyright © 2009 Creators Syndicate
The U.S. debt was more than $14.3 trillion during the so-called debt crisis of 2011, when the level of borrowing reached its statutory limit and the president warned of a potential default if the cap wasn't raised.
See also: 5 Presidents Who Raised the Debt Ceiling
So who owns all that U.S. debt?
About 32 cents for every dollar of U.S. debt, or $4.6 trillion, is owned by the federal government in trust funds, for Social Security and other programs such as retirement accounts, according to the U.S. Department of Treasury.
China and U.S. Debt
The largest portion of U.S. debt, 68 cents for every dollar or about $10 trillion, is owned by individual investors, corporations, state and local governments and, yes, even foreign governments such as China that hold Treasury bills, notes and bonds.
Foreign governments hold about 46 percent of all U.S. debt held by the public, more than $4.5 trillion. The largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.
In total, China owns about 8 percent of publicly held U.S. debt. Of all the holders of U.S. debt China is the third-largest, behind only the Social Security Trust Fund's holdings of nearly $3 trillion and the Federal Reserve's nearly $2 trillion holdings in Treasury investments, purchased as part of its quantitative easing program to boost the economy.
Criticism of China Owning U.S. Debt
To put China's ownership of U.S. debt in perspective, its holding of $1.2 trillion is even larger than the amount owned by American households. U.S. citizens hold only about $959 billion in U.S. debt, according to the Federal Reserve.
Other large foreign holders of U.S. debt include Japan, which owns $912 billion; the United Kingdom, which owns $347 billion; Brazil, which holds $211 billion; Taiwan, which holds $153 billion; and Hong Kong, which owns $122 billion.
See also: Debt Ceiling History
Some Republicans have expressed concern over the amount of U.S. debt owned by China. Republican U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann, a 2012 presidential hopeful, joked that when it came to the debt "Hu's your daddy," a reference to Chinese President Hu Jintao.
Despite such joking, the truth is the bulk of the $14.3 trillion U.S. debt - $9.8 trillion in all - is owned by the American people and its government.
That's the good news.
The bad news?
That's still a lot of IOUs.
There ya go, chew on that a while...
News & Issues
About.com
US Government Info
US Government Info
Government 101
Grants & Assistance
Take Part
Share
Discuss in my forum
How Much U.S. Debt Does China Really Own?
From Tom Murse
See More About:
debt limit
us debt
us deficit
us economy
How Much U.S. Debt Does China Really Own?
"Debt to China"
Cartoons such as this tend to overestimate the amount of U.S. debt held by China.
Copyright © 2009 Creators Syndicate
The U.S. debt was more than $14.3 trillion during the so-called debt crisis of 2011, when the level of borrowing reached its statutory limit and the president warned of a potential default if the cap wasn't raised.
See also: 5 Presidents Who Raised the Debt Ceiling
So who owns all that U.S. debt?
About 32 cents for every dollar of U.S. debt, or $4.6 trillion, is owned by the federal government in trust funds, for Social Security and other programs such as retirement accounts, according to the U.S. Department of Treasury.
China and U.S. Debt
The largest portion of U.S. debt, 68 cents for every dollar or about $10 trillion, is owned by individual investors, corporations, state and local governments and, yes, even foreign governments such as China that hold Treasury bills, notes and bonds.
Foreign governments hold about 46 percent of all U.S. debt held by the public, more than $4.5 trillion. The largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.
In total, China owns about 8 percent of publicly held U.S. debt. Of all the holders of U.S. debt China is the third-largest, behind only the Social Security Trust Fund's holdings of nearly $3 trillion and the Federal Reserve's nearly $2 trillion holdings in Treasury investments, purchased as part of its quantitative easing program to boost the economy.
Criticism of China Owning U.S. Debt
To put China's ownership of U.S. debt in perspective, its holding of $1.2 trillion is even larger than the amount owned by American households. U.S. citizens hold only about $959 billion in U.S. debt, according to the Federal Reserve.
Other large foreign holders of U.S. debt include Japan, which owns $912 billion; the United Kingdom, which owns $347 billion; Brazil, which holds $211 billion; Taiwan, which holds $153 billion; and Hong Kong, which owns $122 billion.
See also: Debt Ceiling History
Some Republicans have expressed concern over the amount of U.S. debt owned by China. Republican U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann, a 2012 presidential hopeful, joked that when it came to the debt "Hu's your daddy," a reference to Chinese President Hu Jintao.
Despite such joking, the truth is the bulk of the $14.3 trillion U.S. debt - $9.8 trillion in all - is owned by the American people and its government.
That's the good news.
The bad news?
That's still a lot of IOUs.
There ya go, chew on that a while...
BubbaChicken
New member
Keep in mind the portion of the government that makes the majority of that last bit up, is created debt from artificially created wealth used to hide debt, and China owns MORE than the citizens of the US do, when you take out the false government shell game part.
Last edited:
HunterBear71
New member
Bubba, you can't take out the 'false government shell game part.' The debt itself is a 'false government shell game' if you look at it like that. I find no problems with the last statistics you posted. I believe they illustrate very clearly that China owns about 8% of all publicaly held U.S. debt. They don't 'own' the U.S. but they are heavily invested in the health of our economy.
BAYSTATE YOTE
New member
The Chinese are not at fault,we only have ourselves to blame,and our polititions.
BubbaChicken
New member
HB, I can agree that they are invested in our economy, to a point. I can also agree that the way the government here handles economics lately it is a shell game. HOWEVER...
To say that 8% of the debt is held in China is only part of the story. It also minimizes the true meaning of what is going on.
American money printing to offset the economical failings of the last 15 years or so by littering the streets with paper is not the same as what China is doing, which is obtaining hard assets AND securing a floating debt from the US Treasury. In other words, the Treasury locally is loaning money to itself and paying it back by making more money. China is lending money to it too, and holding us accountable for that debt in real dollars (well, as real as they are, in any case) and the US cannot print it's way out of that debt. Therefore, the local debt is cancelled out (the government paid itself) except for the part that is owed to the citizens that purchased/invested in Treasury notes and bonds.
The Chinese debt is higher than what is owed to the American investors, as that is the only read debt type, and thus the Chinese own the most. The other countries don't really come close. The debt that the US pays itself is just shuffling credit from pocket to another in the same pants!
I mean, if you had employees that were paid allowances like that (their wages for last week could be relabeled this weeks wages) they would all quit! Especially because you have no problem borrowing from your vendors to pay yourself, yet short your employees. The vendors (China) would hold you accountable for your debt, someday the employees (US citizens) would someday hold you accountable, but you are just printing more checks to cover your own cash advances, and the company suffers because of it. The vendor WILL get paid, the employees MIGHT get paid, and you actually never got paid because you borrowed from yourself to pay yourself! Unfortunately, the Chinese vendor is owed more, so he has first dibs on the money when the pie gets dropped in this juggling act. Make sense? China has the biggest dibs on the pie!
To say that 8% of the debt is held in China is only part of the story. It also minimizes the true meaning of what is going on.
American money printing to offset the economical failings of the last 15 years or so by littering the streets with paper is not the same as what China is doing, which is obtaining hard assets AND securing a floating debt from the US Treasury. In other words, the Treasury locally is loaning money to itself and paying it back by making more money. China is lending money to it too, and holding us accountable for that debt in real dollars (well, as real as they are, in any case) and the US cannot print it's way out of that debt. Therefore, the local debt is cancelled out (the government paid itself) except for the part that is owed to the citizens that purchased/invested in Treasury notes and bonds.
The Chinese debt is higher than what is owed to the American investors, as that is the only read debt type, and thus the Chinese own the most. The other countries don't really come close. The debt that the US pays itself is just shuffling credit from pocket to another in the same pants!
I mean, if you had employees that were paid allowances like that (their wages for last week could be relabeled this weeks wages) they would all quit! Especially because you have no problem borrowing from your vendors to pay yourself, yet short your employees. The vendors (China) would hold you accountable for your debt, someday the employees (US citizens) would someday hold you accountable, but you are just printing more checks to cover your own cash advances, and the company suffers because of it. The vendor WILL get paid, the employees MIGHT get paid, and you actually never got paid because you borrowed from yourself to pay yourself! Unfortunately, the Chinese vendor is owed more, so he has first dibs on the money when the pie gets dropped in this juggling act. Make sense? China has the biggest dibs on the pie!
BubbaChicken
New member
The politicians are to blame because they worked things around this way, we are to blame because we allowed organized crime to own the unions, whom act as businesses themselves now. The voting public puts those people in office and is not willing to deal with some inconvenience to prove a point to the government, so sure, there is plenty of blame here. Heck, there are those in Washington and even in this board whom likely WANT the Socialist system China represents to rule our economy and political way of life here.
We have had it so good for so long because Chinese kids have been going to school while kids here skipped classes in favor of getting high or laid during school hours instead of hitting the books as hard as the exchange students who spoke no English when they got here yet somehow graduated Valedictorian honors with a perfect vocabulary of our language not three years later (I personally know not one, not two, but THREE of these people). We tolerate a poor work ethic, and tolerate the ineffective use of time in the workplace. We have replaced people with machines in the workplace (good in most cases) but the displaced workers have not opened businesses of their own because they either did not have the money to do so, did not have the desire to do so, or did not have the education and simple WILL to do so. Sure it is largely our fault. China simply took up the slack!
Let me ask this, however. Who is going to fix this problem? Also, how much do companies that accept our tax dollars in bailouts of their own bad management practices owe the consumer that facilitated that bailout? I think GM owes something to the taxpayer. I think all the companies that got bailed out owe something to taxpayers. I also think that all the politicians that let this get so far, then approved those bailouts to pay off their campaign contributors owe something to taxpayers.
If I had wanted my tax dollars to go to bailouts of defunct businesses, I would have slipped a note into my return! I think there should be an itemized list in our tax returns so that we can select the things we want our taxes to support. How is THAT for interaction with government policy. Make them support the things we WANT the money to go to, not bridges to no-place and bailouts of foreign banks and businesses that sell out at first opportunity to the countries most likely to deliver nuclear ordinance to us!
We have had it so good for so long because Chinese kids have been going to school while kids here skipped classes in favor of getting high or laid during school hours instead of hitting the books as hard as the exchange students who spoke no English when they got here yet somehow graduated Valedictorian honors with a perfect vocabulary of our language not three years later (I personally know not one, not two, but THREE of these people). We tolerate a poor work ethic, and tolerate the ineffective use of time in the workplace. We have replaced people with machines in the workplace (good in most cases) but the displaced workers have not opened businesses of their own because they either did not have the money to do so, did not have the desire to do so, or did not have the education and simple WILL to do so. Sure it is largely our fault. China simply took up the slack!
Let me ask this, however. Who is going to fix this problem? Also, how much do companies that accept our tax dollars in bailouts of their own bad management practices owe the consumer that facilitated that bailout? I think GM owes something to the taxpayer. I think all the companies that got bailed out owe something to taxpayers. I also think that all the politicians that let this get so far, then approved those bailouts to pay off their campaign contributors owe something to taxpayers.
If I had wanted my tax dollars to go to bailouts of defunct businesses, I would have slipped a note into my return! I think there should be an itemized list in our tax returns so that we can select the things we want our taxes to support. How is THAT for interaction with government policy. Make them support the things we WANT the money to go to, not bridges to no-place and bailouts of foreign banks and businesses that sell out at first opportunity to the countries most likely to deliver nuclear ordinance to us!
HunterBear71
New member
I don't really follow the reasoning that the debt owned by China is somehow more 'real' than the general debt. China has no real recourse. If they attempt to sell off any substantial amount of debt, they risk losing tremendous value on the investment. They can only remain winners through a strong U.S. economy. The entire Chinese domestic economy is a failure without U.S. consumers.
Hooked
New member
The `painful` part to me is the possibility of more domestic jobs lost. How long before a new GM vehicle is completely manufactured in China and shipped over here for sale? I`m sure several vehicle (mfg.`s big three) parts pieces have come from China, Singapore, Philipines, Mexico etc. for quite some time.
Having lost a decent manufacturing job about 11 years ago (spouse too) I just cringe when I hear of jobs lost and mfg. moved elsewhere (other than the US).
I was lucky and found another decent job but obviously not everyone will be so lucky.
I have not studied Economics since High School `86..lol.
What is the bulk of our (U.S) Gross Domestic Product these days..for cry`n out loud it`s hard to buy anything made here.
I look outside and see lots of corn and beans..lol
Having lost a decent manufacturing job about 11 years ago (spouse too) I just cringe when I hear of jobs lost and mfg. moved elsewhere (other than the US).
I was lucky and found another decent job but obviously not everyone will be so lucky.
I have not studied Economics since High School `86..lol.
What is the bulk of our (U.S) Gross Domestic Product these days..for cry`n out loud it`s hard to buy anything made here.
I look outside and see lots of corn and beans..lol