25-06 Ackley advice

T

travjc

New member
Curious if anyone out in the mid-west could point me in the direction of a gunsmith to do a set-back and ream on a ruger hawkeye in 25-06 to 25-06 AI. I have checked the locals here, one shop said they could send it off, but I'm just a little leery of that. I would like to deal with the smith first hand if possible.
Thanks in advance,
Travis
 
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Who ever you have do the work, make sure that they understand just what you said. SET BACK, then rechamber with a .003-.004 "crush" on the parent case. Some will try to just ream without set back, not good.

If no luck locally, look at one of the barrel makers to do the work. Douglas, Shilen, Hart, whom ever, will take your rifle direct from you in the mail, do the work requested and return to you in the mail. No FFL required.
 
Yep gotta have that "crush"! Thats what i'm afraid of in not dealing directly with the smiff. I located a couple numbers tonight and am going to see what that yeilds for me tomorrow. Was un-aware about sending it to a barrel maker but makes sense, thanks Smokeless.
 
BTW, the barrel makers only want your barreled action, no stock or scope.

Pick your favorite, contact them, and get'r done.
 
Originally Posted By: SmokelessPick your favorite, contact them, and get'r done.

That being said, of which would meet your suggestion?
 
Hill Country Rifles

1-830-609-3139

Matt is a great guy to deal with

Take the scope off the rifle, and just mail the rifle

Put the rifle in a gun guard and make a cardboard box for it, insure it for $650

Never had any issues in 20+ years
 
Originally Posted By: SmokelessWho ever you have do the work, make sure that they understand just what you said. SET BACK, then rechamber with a .003-.004 "crush" on the parent case. Some will try to just ream without set back, not good.



A 3 or 4 thou "Crush", is no crush - there is more than that much variation between individual cases - it will get you started on a head separation real fast. Not a good way to start a case on it's new life.

The required crush for an improved case is in the 30 to 40 thou range.

When you close the bolt on a new case in an improved chamber you need to feel a lot of resistance - otherwise, when it is fired, you will stretch the case on the first firing.


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Since getting in the AI world,I've seen this come up alot.
I'm really not sure of the anwser, but my .223AI's you can feel the resistance on parent cases.

I've read that the .004" comes from measurement based off the headspace gauge.

I have a 243AI ,which I've not shot yet and a 280AI in the works by the same smith. He asks what the primary brass is that will be used and to send a few for samples ,if he doesn't have any. IIRC, the brass measurement is used in the headspacing setup. Can't say this is correct, but this smith has a large following in the custom world.

 
Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeSince getting in the AI world,I've seen this come up alot.
I'm really not sure of the anwser, but my .223AI's you can feel the resistance on parent cases. I've read that the .004" comes from measurement based off the headspace gauge.

I have a 243AI ,which I've not shot yet and a 280AI in the works by the same smith. He asks what the primary brass is that will be used and to send a few for samples ,if he doesn't have any. IIRC, the brass measurement is used in the headspacing setup. Can't say this is correct, but this smith has a large following in the custom world.



Here's the problem with that - it is "another wives tale" that is often chatted up on the internet.

You can't have 0.004" off the headspace gauge when making an improved chamber, cuz there is no headspace when making an improved chamber... so there is nothing to reference the 0.004" from (or to).

When you have an improved chamber, it is the base of the neck that stops the case and holds it in place - but headspace is not measured at the base of the neck - it is measured about half way up the slope of the shoulder. But there is no shoulder contact to measure - inside the improved chamber, the base of the neck contacts the chamber, but the shoulder on the new case might be 0.150" away from the chamber, cuz it hasn't blown out yet - so you can't measure anything but the contact at the base of the neck - cuz that is where the "crush" comes from.

So you can't measure the head space yet, cuz there is no headspace - only the base of the neck - THAT IS WHY, gunsmiths will often ask for case samples - they are building your rifle, using your case as a gauge. It is not a practice I would recommend, but I understand it.

I just built a 20 Tac, and when forming the cases for the first firing, I set the form dies so that crush means CRUSH - you have to lean on the bolt handle to close the action - but when the case is fired, there will be 0.0000" case stretch, and from that point on, the cases will never stretch.

But the gunsmith is faced with the average customer that doesn't...

1 - Understand the process of fireforming an improved case...

2 - Doesn't want to have to work to close the bolt - they don't mind a "tiny bit" of resistance, but nothing more, or they think the smith ruined their rifle.

So the smith does what he has to, cuz it would take an hour to explain why the bolt is so hard to close, if he did it right.

But, to the beginning of this - the 0.004" crush is a wives tale - it takes 30 to 40 thou of crush for an improved chambering, or you will start a head separation on the first firing.

It IS possible to just ream out the old chamber with an improved reamer, but then you MUST completely oil the cases before firing them - then they will slip back and fill out the chamber without stretching... but I would not trust the average gun owner to do that
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Interesting CS.
Like I said ,not sure if what I had read was correct. So how does one know what is right or wrong anymore when reading on the net ? Without just asking you .
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He's is something to ponder...
If reamers of any kind can be built, what are there no AI headspace gauges ?

BTW, my two .223AIs lockdown fairly snug on the parent case , no hammer needed ,but stiff.
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Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeInteresting CS.
Like I said ,not sure if what I had read was correct. So how does one know what is right or wrong anymore when reading on the net ? Without just asking you .
grin.gif


He's is something to ponder...
If reamers of any kind can be built, what are there no AI headspace gauges ?

BTW, my two .223AIs lock down fairly snug on the parent case , no hammer needed, but stiff.
grin.gif


Boy, I gotta tell you - I don't know? But I think it is wise to start out with your hip waders on.

Take the 30-06 and the 30-06 AI. Neck base is 2.109" On the AI version, it is 2.075 That's 0.034 of crush. That's 9 or 10 times what everyone "Recommends".

I think I get into so many pie fights cuz I hate to see BS moved around by people that don't know better and it is inhaled by guys that just want to learn something.

The "Trut" is very hard to find on the internet.

Quote:

"Here's is something to ponder...
If reamers of any kind can be built, why are there no AI headspace gauges?"



Here's something to ponder back - most "gunsmiths" don't even own their own reamers - they rent them from "Reamers-R-Us" - and the reamers are crap - they have been re-sharpened about eleventy million times.

A real 'smith that builds wildcats should have (and OWN) prime reamers and headspace gauges TO MATCH, made by the same company, at the same time!

Few do.

If you are gonna have a "top end" rifle built, ask the smith what the neck dia and base dia (just in front of the web) are. If he owns his own reamers, he can tell you - if he doesn't and has to rent them, he can't.

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I had talked to a few smiths about 280AI and one had mentioned he had a current reamer and gauge for it.
So there are AI gauges,it's just not always the smith that has them or the reamer.

I recall lots of guys(customers) buying their own reamers and sending them to the smith doing the work. Insuring a sharp and proper chamber,I would guess.

Just like race cars I'guess. "How fast can you afford ?"
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Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeI had talked to a few smiths about 280-AI and one had mentioned he had a current reamer and gauge for it.
So there are AI gauges, it's just not always the smith that has them or the reamer.

I recall lots of guys (customers) buying their own reamers and sending them to the smith doing the work. Insuring a sharp and proper chamber, I would guess.

Just like race cars I guess. "How fast can you afford ?"
grin.gif


One thing to remember is that when Nosler decided to make the 280 AI commercially, that did something to the 280 AI, that other AI's didn't have - and that was SAAMI acceptance (and standards).

But there was a change in the standards because of technical problems with the first set - so a second set of standards were made and now published. The headspace for the new 280 AI is 2.1437" on a 0.3750" datum line.

Make sure your smith is up on this.


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Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeGood point CS.
I forgot to mention I was using the standard/Nosler version.

The change was because of Nosler - I don't remember the details, cuz the 280 is not on my "Hot list", but the original Nosler submissions to SAAMI were accepted, and reamers and dies were made, then there was a problem, and they had to revise it - a lot of smiths were pissed cuz they had a few hundred bucks in reamers that were worth squat, plus customers that might want a re-chamber on the house - so ask him, better now than later.



Here, I found the thread about it.

http://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/280-ackley-improved-alert/

In this "alert", you will also read about the famous 0.004", which is pure BS.

Most gunsmiths are pipefitters... "Forgive them, God, for they know not what they do."
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Also interesting is...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/280-ai-alert-73264/

Meow
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My first quasi-wildcat was a 6mm Remington AI and indeed all the smith did was use a reamer and long T handle to cut the chamber. Being a young stupid kid, I did not know any better. The only way I could keep the brass from separating was to expand the brass up to 30 cal and carefully reset the shoulder to a hard crush fit with the AI sizing die. In the end, the rifle shot pretty good. The 6mm AI was devastating on Eastern Whitetail. It just seemed to kill things better than it should.
John
 
Originally Posted By: pcammoMy first quasi-wildcat was a 6mm Remington AI and indeed all the smith did was use a reamer and long T handle to cut the chamber. Being a young stupid kid, I did not know any better. The only way I could keep the brass from separating was to expand the brass up to 30 cal and carefully reset the shoulder to a hard crush fit with the AI sizing die. In the end, the rifle shot pretty good. The 6mm AI was devastating on Eastern Whitetail. It just seemed to kill things better than it should.
John

I used to expand and then make a false shoulder - but now I shoot new cases wet (with G-96) and let them slide back to the bolt and fill the chamber without stretching - works great, but I get into fights every time I mention it, and I got thrown off of Benchrest.com for saying it
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I considered it a badge of honor
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I agree, slick-firing is the way to go, though I have not tried it with a Gibbs case as some have suggested.

I got thrown off for correcting a moderator about the events of a particular match where I placed sixth...(a match that he did not attend)...
 
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