R-15 .204 vs .223

Originally Posted By: BubbaChickenHey everyone, I have an AR (Stag) in .223, and I have to say the fmj PMC stuff is crap extraordinaire for ammo on targets at even 50 yards. I can chunk a bowling ball more accurately using only my left foot to lob it.

I have been told by folks at the range that the 55 grain ammo is too light (short) and that I need to go to a longer bullet, and that I need to stop using the PMC ammo (something about Korean production?) and use nice factory stuff or load my own with something closer to 70 grains.

My question is, for those of us whom are new to this particular platform, and using a Carbine barrel with a chrome lining and 1:9 twist on A) Targets or B) critters the size of a coyote or up to perhaps a small deer during the appropriate season, and C) informal range target shooting, what weight bullet seems to be most accurate, and for hunting critters we are not concerned about overpenetration on, what is the SHORTEST bullet we should be looking at for accurate shooting?

The reason I am asking this in this manner is that I have a swaging press, and am about to plunk down a LOT of money on a die set, and I want to be sure that I pick the right caliber (there are others in contention) and bullet style for the work I want to be able to handle, and the rifle is new to me, as is this particular caliber. I can reload if there are not factory ammunition options that make financial sense, I can reload almost anything in fact!

I was told that the 1:9 twist rate was too slow for the shorter bullets, so does anyone know where I should start for rolling my own weightwise to see what the bullet range for this platform and caliber might be? I suppose I am asking for a starting point and a stopping point, I need to know what the length (weight) window is for this twist rate and caliber within this platform. That is a better way of asking it.. Thanks!

I have a DPMS 1:9 twist carbine and shoot 60 grain vmax well with it. With the 1:9 twist you should be able to shoot the 50-60 grainers pretty well. You wouldn't have to go to 70 grainers. The 70's would probably work better in the 1:7 twist. 50-60 should be your sweet spot.
 
Hmm... Maybe it is just that the PMC ammo is so crappy that it is not possible to group it well.. My results were horrible, my .45 ACP was more accurate (though it has a fantastic barrel and trigger job, and the AR trigger is almost frightening in how badly IT works..).
 
I mean, I got more of a PATTERN than a group! It was BAD, maybe a 'group' (and I use that term in violation of it's meaning) of several inches across was average. It was horrible. My .45 ACP at the same range gave me a group of about 2 inches or a tad less, and that is at 50 yards! I know I can shoot!
 
I did not witness any key holing, either. The .223 slugs were not tumbling, they were just all over the map as far as impacts went. It was so frustrating I put the rifle into its case and have not revisited it in a month (what can I say, I hold a grudge). I did not really see any use in just throwing more time and ammo downrange if I could not use it effectively. I may as well have been just tossing the 30 boxes of bullets I have into the trash can there. Nobody else on the line wanted it, that is sure. Not that I evidently have any use for FMJ ammo anyway. THIS rifle did not like it. I think it was 55 grains too! The stuff smelled odd when firing as well, pretty stinky in fact. I don't know. It sure was strange. It did not even matter from one box to the next, they were all inaccurate. I could have thrown them at the paper and gotten better 'groups' by hand.
 
I'd find some other ammo and give it a try. I can't suggest any ammo because I always reload. Anything has to be better than the fmj's though. Check over your scope mounts too ya never know.
 
Yeah, I thought about the scope mounts too. I checked that. They were good. Is it correct that the FMJ ammo is crap because it is FMJ ammo? Is the bullet the problem not because it is too short but because it is FMJ and is not needed to hit less than a man sized target at 100 yards? It easily qualifies as a Center Of Mass accuracy level if that is the case.
 
I've never heard fmj to be real accurate, but I would have thought it would do better than the luck your having too. I'm guessing here but I think you right about the level of accuracy needed or required by fmj ammo. I bet a box off the shelf of a decent hunting load would give you better results.
Factory triggers are also rough as you noticed. I haven't replaced mine yet, but probably will be. With the factory trigger I have been using front and rear bags trying to get it as solid as I can before touching trigger.
 
What sort of accuracy have you been able to get using the ammo you have made, and what are you sending it through (twist rate and make/model)?

I sure hope it is not the rifle...

I am starting to think it worthwhile to pull the loads from the PMC stuff, and reload them with my own components, just to keep the brass (as it is after all new brass).
 
Find some quality ammo, I have a 24" that loves my loads with 55gr vmax (1:8 twist) and will not hit a shoe box with all 5 rounds for grouping with pmc fmj stuff at 100yds. Like mine, yours just dont like it. I do have fun with it in my 16" for brass though.

The 55s should shoot well from that rifle, I have been having great groups with 55gr vmax and 55gr nosler btips with h335 behind them set to mag length.

I recommend finding a box of high quality factory ammo. It may cost a little more, but you should see better groups, if not, there may be some more things to check on your AR.
 
I will load up some ammo or shoot some name brand hunting stuff through it and compare. I would love to be able to set my Marlin Model 60 .22 LR aside for a while and use the AR exclusively as my varmint hunting platform because I love it so. It just FITS the hand. I am also wanting to start swaging some bullets (I have a swaging press), but I really want to know if it is the ammo or the gun before I embark on THAT adventure. I agree with both of you, I am going to indeed get some other ammo and try that.

I suspect the crappy trigger is not helping matters, but that shotgun spread was WITH bags, a 16x scope, AND a rest, on a concrete shooting table over a concrete pad at known, measured, fixed and regulated range. There was no wind, temp was about 75 degrees. My Model 60 by the way put em into a hole the size of a half dollar with crap bullets, and it is not the most accurate gun I have ever had either.

Anyone know what the extreme stability spread for a 1:9 twist barrel in .223 is? I mean, can I still stabilize the Sierra Matchking slugs and VLD offerings out there in 70-ish grain incarnations? How short or long a bullet can this rate stabilize in this caliber, in other words?
 
Billsauk and GMM, by the way, thanks for your input in this, I have been considering my options, and as usual the most obvious (try another bullet) is the one that is not only the easiest to remedy but likely the issue.

I will get some bullets of varying lengths and make some up. I should be able to make some decisions then. It will be a couple weeks before my tax refund gets here, so that I can get the bench set up the way I want, and I will repost when I have a range report, with what bullets worked and what just did not. I know the ball ammo is probably going to be the absolute worst. I should have known it would be to begin with. The government never tests for precision beyond a certain specification when cost is involved. The brass is probably the most uniform component in that PMC ammo, and even IT may be suspect. I will post that info as well when I weigh some of them and check for case volume.
 
Invest in some Black Hills if you are restricted to factory offerings...They produce some in varying bullet weights and it tends to shoot pretty well...

I have two ARs with 16" barrels, 1/9 twist rates and they will both shoot 40-68gr rounds really well...70gr rounds in the 1/9 barrels can be a little iffy...

My .204 AR has a 1/12 twist match barrel and loves the 39gr Sierra Blitz Kings, but tends to fall off a little with 40gr rounds..35gr Bergers also shoot well in it..
 
I am not restricted to factory, I can handload as well, and soon I will be swaging .223 bullets for use in this rifle too. I have the press, looking for the correct dies.

This is part of why I am asking about the range of likely weights, as I do not want to get 5 different bullet designs at 20 bucks per box or more, and not get to a reasonable one until the LAST one. LOL.. From your post I would imagine that the 55 grain bullet should be about ideally situated!

Your comments are welcome, and I am also asking this for myself as well as for any others of us that are new to the AR platform in general, and the .223 in particular.
 
From my limited use of .204 in ARS..ive come to the conclusion that they can tend to be more finicky with bullet weight/load than a .223.

For where i live ,,the .223 will do everything i need,and a .204 has zero advantage for me.

I use the lighter weight faster bullets,30-40 grainers for groundhogs/crows....60 + grainers for coyotes,,,,speed when i want,,or stopping power.

X
 
Isnt the best one always the last one? Its like looking for something, you always find it in the last place you look.

Anyhow, that 223 will put the lights out, just goota find what it likes.

+1 for OT and black hills, they have a reload in 52gr match that shoots very well from all of my ARs.
 
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Not sure what the twist is in the .204?

But in the .223 the 1:9 seems to take 55 -t0 62g bullets just fine. I've even put 5.56 green tips thur mine with great results, however these loads are pretty hot.

I don't reload (yet?) however, remington 50g hollow points work ok, but the hornady Match .223 ammo (little pricey) are spot on in my RT15, which is the 24" SS varmint model.
 
I bought a r15vtr in a 223, my trigger seems to be fine right now and accuracy is good, the only thing i do not like is tht i want a different upper and cant seem to find one tht matches the mach 1 camo... I love my r15 223 its def my coyote gun but i was wondering bout 204, let us know what u pick
 
Try several different brands/weights and see if it likes a particular one. I have a 16" pencil barrel that shoots 55gr. v-maxs about 1 1/4" @ 100 yds., then I tried some Hornady 40 grains that shoot .750" @ 100. I shoot them hunting and the junk stuff plinking.
 
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