Users of Win. 748 Powder In A .223 Bolt Action

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BuckeyeSpecial

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Winchester 748 is a classic ball powder for the .223; very accurate and meters well.

Loads for the 40 and 45 grain bullets in .223 bolt guns are listed in older load manuals, but Winchester's current data lists only the maximum load of W-748 starting w/ 50 grain bullets and omits reference to the 40/45 grain weight bullets.

What quantity of powder are your respective START loads for W-748 with 40 and 45 grain bullets in a bolt action .223 rifle?

Thanks in advance!
 
Originally Posted By: BuckeyeSpecialWinchester 748 is a classic ball powder for the .223; very accurate and meters well.

Loads for the 40 and 45 grain bullets in .223 bolt guns are listed in older load manuals, but Winchester's current data lists only the maximum load of W-748 starting w/ 50 grain bullets and omits reference to the 40/45 grain weight bullets.

What quantity of powder are your respective START loads for W-748 with 40 and 45 grain bullets in a bolt action .223 rifle?

Thanks in advance!

Winchester is not the only one to omit W-748 from light bullets.

Hodgdon also has omitted W-748 from the loads of 40 and 45 grain bullets in the 223.

The reason is that W-748 is too slow for these bullets in the 222, 223, and 222 Magnum.

I used to campaign a 222 Magnum benchrest rifle, back before we had the luxuries of chronographs and pressure strain gauges.

A compressed case FULL case of W-748 would not show any pressure signs, and it shot well (accuracy wise), but many years later, I discovered that the case full of W-748 was delivering very slow velocities at ~35Kpsia... it was loafing at such a low pressure, that the barrel showed no signs of being shot after many years of competition...

I can assure you that when it was retired from benchrest to being a varmint rifle, and loaded with faster powders, it could flatten a primer with the best of them
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Still killing crows and 'chucks with it - on the original barrel.


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Catshooter:

Thanks for the response; mystery solved.

I wondered if I would receive an account such as you describe...
yet given the manual velocities with W-748 and 50 grain bullets, one would think the 40 and 45 grains would have adequate pressure as well.

But, the data seems to be there per the chronograph results and benchrest experiences.
 
My basic 40g vmax load was 26.5g w748 & super accurate in my Savage 1/9" bbl. I stopped using the 40g bullets for anything long ago.
I have checked my old notes/books and the starting load is 24g W748 for a 40/45g bullet to 28g W748.
 
5spd:

Thanks very much for looking up that older data you developed; I use the 40/45 grains frequently here on groundhogs in populated NW Ohio farm country.

Your data pretty much meets the extrapolation I was considering from reviewing several manuals, so the confirmation is most appreciated.

I will try some of my 1lb. of W-748 and see how it works w/ 40/45 grain bullets although the 50/52 grain bullets appear a better choice . W-748 is also a good powder for my 22/250 if not ideal for the lighter bullets in the .223.
 
Originally Posted By: BuckeyeSpecialCatshooter:

Thanks for the response; mystery solved.

I wondered if I would receive an account such as you describe...
yet given the manual velocities with W-748 and 50 grain bullets, one would think the 40 and 45 grains would have adequate pressure as well.

But, the data seems to be there per the chronograph results and benchrest experiences.

Even with the 50gr bullets, performance with W-748 is really piss-poor.

~3200 fps at 40,000 psi is way under expectations - the 223 and 50gr bullet combination should produce ~3500+ fps, and it takes full pressure to do that.

The most bestest powders for the 50gr are in the burning range of H-4895, IMR-8208 (XBR), and BenchMark...

The slowness of W-748 is right next to 4320, which is in slooow powder country.

W-748 does not come into it's own until you are shooting 70-75 grain bullets.
 
This is interesting as some have speculated that the new Hodgdon CFE223 powder is really just a variation of W-748 but while I have NOT messed with W-748 the CFE223 has shot well in two .223 bolt guns I have. The speeds with 52-53gr bullets were in the 3350 to 3450 fps depending on barrel length with a 28.5gr load. Obviously they have some differences.
 
Originally Posted By: venaticThis is interesting as some have speculated that the new Hodgdon CFE223 powder is really just a variation of W-748 but while I have NOT messed with W-748 the CFE223 has shot well in two .223 bolt guns I have. The speeds with 52-53gr bullets were in the 3350 to 3450 fps depending on barrel length with a 28.5gr load. Obviously they have some differences.

"... as some have speculated that the new Hodgdon CFE223 powder is really just a variation of W-748"

Such "speculation" is silly - from guys that want to sound like experts in nothingness.

All ball powders are really variations of other ball powders.

BLC2 is a variation of H-335, which is a variation of W-748, which is a variation of W750, which is... you get the idea.

You can play the same game with stick powders
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CFE is slow - it hasn't been around long enough to have a hard place in the burning rate tables, but it looks to be a little faster than W-748.


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Originally Posted By: CatShooter Even with the 50gr bullets, performance with W-748 is really piss-poor.
Now thats a missnomer if I heard any.
I have been using w748 since 1986 in all my .223s with 50g bullets 1/8, 1/9 & 1/14" twists with exceptional accuracy. FPS at 3332 and I have no issues to 700 yards on p-dogs at all. Course now Im no expert, but all the dead varmints since then can attest to w748s performance.
 
Originally Posted By: 5spd Originally Posted By: CatShooter Even with the 50gr bullets, performance with W-748 is really piss-poor.
Now thats a missnomer if I heard any.
I have been using w748 since 1986 in all my .223s with 50g bullets 1/8, 1/9 & 1/14" twists with exceptional accuracy. FPS at 3332 and I have no issues to 700 yards on p-dogs at all. Course now Im no expert, but all the dead varmints since then can attest to w748s performance.

Sorry, but we were speaking ballistically, not whether you can hit a PD - 3330 fps is poor performance for that combination.


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Dear All:

In the 6-7 loading manuals I have access to, the top velocity with a 50 gr bullet using almost ANY POWDER is around 3350 FPS ...except for AA 2230=3527, AA2015BR=3397,AA 2460=3406 (per Lyman 47th Edition).

Alas, my local shop does not sell AA powders (some years back I used AA 2230 a lot in the 222 and 22/250 and it is a great powder).

[Probably Vihta Vouhri N-133 is the fastest with these two bullet weights in the .223 and it costs $34.00 per lb.]

The Nosler #4 manual lists W-748 as the THE most accurate powder for the 40 and 50 grain bullets; its listed velocity is at 3547 for the 40, and 3260 for the 50 grain at maximum loads.

So Catshooter is partly right, 5spd is completely right, and I am all done.


P.S. I killed another groundhog tonight with a 45 gr. softpoint at about 3100FPS and Mrs Groundhog did not notice the lack of velocity. But, I like at least 3300-3400 so the next batch will get more of the black stuff...
 
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Your are correct about N133 as it gives top-end speeds I get 3615fps with 50gr Bullets but if available take a look at Ramshot XTerminator because it is no slouch. With the 40gr Berger from my Rem 700 .223 they are averaging 3766fps and bumped over 3800fps a couple of times.
 
I have killed a lot of varmints with the 50g Sierra Blitz with a load of 27.5g of Win 748 and a 7 1/2 primer at 3400-3450 out of my 26" hart 1-14's with zero freebore.

55's seem to like about 26.5g at 3150 tops.

55g Winchester with 26.5g of 748 is a classic 223 load for coyotes.

Throats last a very long time with 748, make no mistake about that fact!
 
Venatic:

I used up the last of my Ramshot Xterminator last year and sadly my local dealer does not carry it...it is a 200 mile round trip to another dealer to get more and that is $40.00 in gas before the powder!

Xterminator worked very well; I never loaded it to the maximum however.

So, that is why I bought the W-748 this last winter as my local dealer had it.
 
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Ackleyman:

Thanks for giving your W 748 loadings.

My [admittedly dated] 1995 Winchester powders booklet states that the max load of W 748 in the .223 with a 50 grain bullet is 26 grains...yet several of my other manuals (Speer #11, Hornady 4th Edition, Lyman 47th ) list 28 and 29+ grains as a max load!

In fact, Lyman #47 lists the starting load at 26.5 grains with a 50 grain bullet (a 0.5 grain over Winchester's maximum!!!)

So geesh, one would like to honor the powder's actual distributor/namesake, and one would think Winchester stopped at 26 based on their lab's testing. Who does one believe?

To Winchester's credit, Nosler #4 lists their maximum as 26.5 grains with a 50 grain bullet.

This powder may be listed way below its potential, or someone's test equipment is goofy. But, I will start at the lowest [extrapolated] minimum for a 40/45 grain bullet and work up.

Certainly other shooters like yourself have safely gone higher....than the Winchester data.
 
I was going to jump in here with my load data, but decided I didn't feel like it.
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I will say that all 3 of my 223's prefer W748 over any other powder when we are talking accuracy. I have loads for 37gr., 40gr., 50gr., 52gr., and 55gr. all using W748, LC brass or Rem., Remington 7 1/2 primers.
Also, my Hornady Manual which dates back to the early 80's and has never failed me, gives W748 max. load velocities the same as any of the other powders it lists. Whether it is correct or not I don't know. I do know that 748 is darn accurate in any of mine and now I hear my barrel will last for ever.
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K22:

Thanks for your validation of your Hornady Manual's loads for W-748; I have access to the Hornady 4th Edition (1996 - 5th printing)Manual and will place some more trust in those loads when the time comes. And yes, Winchester has touted W 748 as a low flame powder that will preserve barrel throats from erosion.

The Hornady manual noted above lists a starting load of 25.5 for their 45 gr. #2230 bullet in the .223 at 3100 FPS, and a max of 28.6 gr. at 3400 FPS.

While that bullet has a short ogive [its a Hornet design], other (Speer, Sierra, etc) 45 grain bullets will be close to those FPS and that is in the ball park for what I want it to do.

And thanks to ALL the contributing posters on this topic; sounds like W-748 can still do the job out there.
 
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The most accurate loads with 748 will be within 1.0g of what is a max load for your rifle(hint).

Again, 27.5-28.0g with a CCI400, Rem 7 1/2 with a 50g What ever, is ungodly accurate. My favorite bullet for this speed is the old Sierra 50g lead tip blitz and the Speer 50g TNT.

The load I gave you of 26.5g of 748 with a 55g Winchester is a smack daddy coyote load, substitute the Sierra 55g Lead tip blitz for massive damage on what ever you you shooting(grenades large jackrabbits).

I killed two deer(100 yds-lung shots) and an antelope(430 yds-lung shot) with this same load with a 55g Sierra spt, they dropped like a toilet seat!
 
Originally Posted By: BuckeyeSpecialK22:

Thanks for your validation of your Hornady Manual's loads for W-748; I have access to the Hornady 4th Edition (1996 - 5th printing)Manual and will place some more trust in those loads when the time comes. And yes, Winchester has touted W 748 as a low flame powder that will preserve barrel throats from erosion.

The Hornady manual noted above lists a starting load of 25.5 for their 45 gr. #2230 bullet in the .223 at 3100 FPS, and a max of 28.6 gr. at 3400 FPS.

While that bullet has a short ogive [its a Hornet design], other (Speer, Sierra, etc) 45 grain bullets will be close to those FPS and that is in the ball park for what I want it to do.

And thanks to ALL the contributing posters on this topic; sounds like W-748 can still do the job out there.

Glad it helped. Mine is the third printing (1982) and gives the same load/specs. as you stated above.
 
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