What makes a coyote chase a dog?

I'm going agree on Kirby's assessment. You don't hear me say that often. Hahahah.
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I've filmed coyote-coyote interaction, as well as watched plenty of it. They act no different to a coyote, than they do a dog. I'm not really sure a coyote knows a dog is a dog or if it thinks it's a coyote...don't really care. If you get a chance to watch my DVD, you'll see some of the best coyote-coyote interaction that I've ever seen filmed, at the end of my 2nd disk.

I really think it's a territorial thing. If a dog gives chase to a coyote, it's the breaking from the chase that triggers the coyote into fight vs flee. The breaking of the chase shows a sign of weakness and they capitalize. That isn't always the case, as some coyotes keep on running and others charge in to take a dog down at first sight, without any chase at all.

Here's some pics from the other day of a pizzed off male that attacked Gunner at first sight.

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They locked up for a good minute or so and Gunner had to show him who's boss.

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The coyote ran and Gunner gave chase. He broke from the chase and the coyote switched rolls and chased back to me....and the gun.

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Tony
 
fred your not the bad guy in my mind, just a guy asking ?'s

tony those are some nice pics

jeff, i know we talked about it the other night but some people dont carry a camera, i have tryed, never was good at it, i know guys that have hours of video that alot of people would kill to watch, i know guys that have great dogs and dont even have a pic of them working, just because people arent seeing it dont mean it aint happening
 
jeff i'm just saying that there are guys that do and do it real well that never video, same as there are guys that kill abunch of coyotes and nobody ever knows about it, i wasnt trying to get in a numbers game or anything, talk to you guys later
 
Tony, those pics are cool as he!!, but I've got some questions for you, now...
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Of the hundreds and hundreds of coyotes that Gunner has decoyed, about what % of them just steamrolled in, dropped the gloves and went straight to fighting, as shown in your photos above?

Is that behavior the norm, or the exception?

Do you find that super aggresive behavior happening more frequently at any particular time of year?

Are these predominantly males or females?

Pups or adults?

I'm asking because, in the natural world, there is a progression of posturing & 'bluffing' that occurs before a fight ensues. In nature, fighting is a LAST resort and most every wild animal on the planet will resort to a physical fight only under the most dire (life threatening) circumstances. That is key to survival, since fighting very easily could = death for both parties, and nature doesn't cycle correctly with suicide bombers...
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That said, I think it is precisely that pre-fight posturing & bluffing behavior that a good 'decoy' dog will learn to capitalize on to bring coyotes back to daddy. They realize the gravity of the situation, so they 'play the game' because survival dictates that fighting is a LAST resort.

Anyhoo, in the case of those photos, do you find it preferable that Gunner fights the coyote, instead of him turning tail and luring him back to you?

If a coyote is 'suicidal' enough to pile right into a fight, shouldn't that same coyote be bold enough to follow Gunner right back into your lap?

Are you encouraging that aggressive behavior in Gunner, just to see it?
Or, have you found that aggressive fight behavior translates into more coyotes being 'decoyed' on stand?

Why didn't Gunner just kill that coyote like all the other ones you've mentioned he does?

What made Gunner stop fighting and decide to come back to you?
Did the tables turn after the "bodyslam" & he quit the fight on his own, or did you 'tone' him off from killing that coyote?

In all of your posting ,Tony, that is THE most puzzling thing for me to figure out. Just can't wrap my head around it! What makes Gunner decide to kill one coyote, and decoy the next? Do you have any control over that, whatsoever?

Or is Gunner on 'autopilot', killing the coyotes he can, and quitting when he's losing?
Are all the coyotes that Gunner catches & kills YOY in the fall, or adults?

How does that all shake out???

I'm honestly at a loss to figure out what makes a dog passively 'decoy' one coyote, then flat out kill another one. How does that 180 degree, completely opposite behavior come about?

Dont worry, I'm gonna buy your DVD anyway
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so help us newbies understand what is really happening?
 
I am home working when I ought to be out working my dogs and seen this thread.

That coyote was all business. In the 1st pic you can see its tail held high.
Like it when I see that. You know that coytoe is going to work the dog.
If it plays out long enough and there is a family group within eye or earshot mult coyotes can be killed on that stand.
I LIKED THE PIC'S Tony. Thx for putting them up.

Lots of good post in this thread.

Catch yall later
Kelly
 
Good God Fred, you roll out too many questions to answer in one sitting.

Of the all the coyotes we've decoyed, there has only been two instances of a flat out fight without chase. Both were big aggressive males. One happened the other day and the other back in Jan. Both are dead.

Gunner's job is to lure coyotes back. This is a rare case that he got jumped. After the tussle, he broke loose from the coyote. A bluffing session pursued and the coyote finally headed out, with Gunner on his tail. When they got out 350 yards or so, Gunner broke from chase and headed back to me, with coyote in hot pursuit. This happened a couple of times, before I decided to shoot.

I don't encourage the aggressive behavior for shear enjoyment. Again, this was a case of him being jumped. He doesn't flat kill coyotes on his own, like some wild animal. It's not like that at all.

For the details on how the stand went down, how and why Gunner released, etc... you are just going to have to wait to see the footage.
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Thanks...

Tony
 
cool pis tony.

Please don't stop posting videos guys. Some of us don't get to hunt much and need the videos and stories to get us through the week.
 
Dang! someone write that down, Tony agreed? with me
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Speaking of canine behaviors/( dog, coyote, whatever).

A long term study was done in Russia "over a 40yr span" by some Biologists in Russia. They used wild Silver Fox. During this study, each yearly litter. They picked out the pups with the most docile. Non-agressive traits in them.

Over the following yrs. They kept breeding the non-agressive/docile fox. Eventually, they noted in those yearlings/off spring. Their color started to change, their tails started to curl. Et their ears started to droop. As they became more "domesticated" vs remaining wild.

Lineage, I believe is a strong factor in agressiveness vs passiveness. Same with coyotes or domestic dogs IMO.

edit; BTW, this was a filmed/televised study. Which made it even better, to see & understand.
 
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Sure is a fun topic.
Good post, Tony with the good pics, and lots of good discussion.
Knockemdown, you getting anything figured out??????
Not bustin on you, just wantin to know if the responses are helping you??
 
Knockemdown, Im just curiouse here. You said that every coyote you have called in over the past year has boogered at the sight of your dog right? So are you leaving your dog at home when you go call now?

If not why? If he is not decoying every coyote, and increasing your kill rates, then why are you still waisting your time bringing him to the field?

Since your coyotes are boogering at the sight of your dog, and it is clear that size is the determining factor of how good of a decoy dog you have, then are you looking for a new, smaller, less intimidating dog?

No, i dont have any decoy dogs, and never have, but i feel as though im qualified to ask those questions, lol.

P.S. Sure is a heck of a conversation, lots of good stuff on here, kudos to you for starting it!
 
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Thanks Tony, that makes more sense.
But I still don't get how the same dog just decides to flat out kill a coyote every now & then, as you've described in several of your past posts. But that's getting off topic thread, so I digress...
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Duane, yes, I'm figuring stuff out, as I'm sure everyone else reading along is. My MAIN objective for asking these questions is to generate dialogue, so I don't merely consider this "Fred's decoy dog learnin 101". I'm sure you're savvy enough to realize that I'm playing 'dumb' to keep within the spirit of playng devil's advocate...
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Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
Knockemdown, Im just curiouse here. You said that every coyote you have called in over the past year has boogered at the sight of your dog right? So are you leaving your dog at home when you go call now?

Hi Jesse.
Yes, every coyote since the end of September has flat out run away from my dog approaching and/or barking.
Yes, I have indeed left him home for a few stands in the woods.
Now, I'm leaving the dog AND myself at home now since NY's coyote season ended on 3/25
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Although PA remains open, I don't have near as many spots to hunt there. And I don't have the inclination to kill adult coyotes with pups in a hole somewhere, so staying home is fine by me.

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If not why? If he is not decoying every coyote, and increasing your kill rates, then why are you still waisting your time bringing him to the field?

Well, I'm not, as stated above
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But I was trying to give the pup an honest chance to show me something during our season. As a reminder, my dog still isn't 2yrs old yet, and he actually did very well on the few coyotes that felt bold enough to approach, so naturally I wanted to see that develop.
The main 'test' is that I wanted to see for myself if our very spooky & nocturnal coyotes would be any more bold during the daytime with the presence of a dog on stand.

The answer I've been learning, is NO.

Ask anyone who tries to call coyotes here NY in the day how difficult it is and you'll very quickly begin to realize that I'm dealing with my own set of circumstances. That said, finding out how a dog might/might not work here was intruiging, so I wanted to give it a shot.

I would like to point out that I did NOT buy a "decoy dog" pup. Rather, I did alot of research on breeds and chose a pup that ideally would be an all around hunting/companion dog for me. Luckily, he's proven to be that, and then some!!! So the fact that our coyotes don't want to play with him on stand only stinks very little.
I could always travel to hunt with any of my friends around the country & prolly show him more coyotes in a week's time than he sees here all year.
But for now, I'm quite happy seeing him do this, 365days a year, without fail...
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SO I honestly didn't have any illusions of grandeur about running a 'decoy dog' here in NY. It was just a fun project I've been trying out. And, for the record, I don't think anyone else's 'decoy dog' would have enjoyed much better success. After all, how can a dog get to 'decoying' a coyote that is ultra spooky to begin with AND conditioned to take off for the next county at the first sight of dog???
If anyone could 'splain otherwise, I'm all ears!!!


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Since your coyotes are boogering at the sight of your dog, and it is clear that size is the determining factor of how good of a decoy dog you have, then are you looking for a new, smaller, less intimidating dog?

I don't think size is THE determining factor in how good a decoy dog can be. If size where the factor, as you stated above, then wouldn't everyone on the board be running 15 lb. decoy dogs?

To answer in more detail, I honestly felt I could get away with a fair sized (40-50 lb.)dog here in NY. Remember, my coyotes are dang near twice the size of a desert coyote, and my cur actually appears 'smaller' than the scale would prove. An adult coyote looks friggin' HUGE next to him!

And to take it one step further, NY and PA have more & more guys running coyotes than ever before. You're a member of Matt's board & can see that for yourself. In this past year alone, there have been several different groups of hound hunters running trailhounds in my 'honey hole' areas where I call. Yes, they have permission and no I don't want to stop them, that's just how it is.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out how just one negative interaction with a pack of hounds will learn a coyote up QUICK as to how it reacts to seeing a dog in the woods. Despite KNOWING that, I still wanted to give my dog a shot, so I've brought him along to find out the hard way.
So call me an idiot for trying...
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I'm [beeep] sure not getting a JRT to feed to our coyotes just to find out though! Even an African JRT!!!
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And I don't think that a 20-35 lb. dog would magically be the answer to getting these coyotes to commit. Could be, but I doubt it...


Quote:No, i dont have any decoy dogs, and never have, but i feel as though im qualified to ask those questions, lol.
No you don't.
So go back & sit in the corner with kirby,
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(just kiddin'
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)

Quote:p.S. Sure is a heck of a conversation, lots of good stuff on here, kudos to you for starting it!


thanks, that was the whole idea!!!
 
You are missing out on the best decoy action of all year by sitting out spring and summer. It's what a decoy dog is all about.

Tough making a decoy dog out of any dog if you don't get out and put numbers of coyotes in front of it. 10-20 a year is not going to do it. If you don't have the numbers where you live you will have to drive to get to them or accept that your dog may never make a very good decoy dog. Not due to any short comming of the dog, but due to you not doing your part.

There is no magic in coyote hunting and esp. not in a decoy dog. It is truely a numbers game. Could you make a field trial bird dog only showing it 12 birds a year? Probably not. The truth is most guys will never use a decoy dog how they are supposed to be used. Denning. It's too tough and too hot and too many other thing to do that time of year so it gets put on the back burner. Thats fine, but you can't go around thinking if I can't do it no one can because a few of us do and we MAKE it work by putting our own hard work and time and money into making a decoy dog a decoy dog not just a hunting buddy that scares off coyotes or sits at your side and then goes and rags a dead coyote a few time a year.

This is one of the reasons I think flooding the market with "decoy dogs" is not the right thing to do. Most guys won't use them how they are meant to be utilized or when they are most effective.

Just my opinion from watching no one have an idea what decoy dogs are 10 years ago to now when just about every guy has or wants one to increase his numbers. I got news for you a dog just isn't going to do it by itself. You are a team and YOU must put some into it to get any out of it.

Tim
 
"What makes a coyote chase a dog?"

I'm thinking steak bones around the neck, Oscar Meyer wieners around the middle and [beeep] in heat smeared under tail section outta do it.
 
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