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#2198149 - 04/10/12 10:06 AM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: Duane@ssu]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Understood, Jesse. I think that other thread has been addressed to everyone's satisfaction.

It seems like some guys are all hung up on what their dog does AFTER the shot, rather than what the dog is, or isn't doing BEFORE the shot. It's the BEFORE part that makes a 'decoy dog' an asset, and is the part that fascinates me. That is why I started this thread, to put the focus back on HOW & WHY a decoy dog works on stand!

And onto a related, more 'touchy' subject of recommending "average" hunters to try decoy dogs...

When running a 'decoy dog' during "prime time", I feel one now owns the added responsibility to taking care of certain unglorifying aspects of the task, namely denning. I can't see that as being any sort of fun, but I do see the necessity...

I am of the opinion tha encouraging 'decoy dogging' during the denning period without even acknowleging or addressing what needs to be done after taking adult coyotes is completely irresponsible!

That is exactly why I won't encourage ANY "average" hunter to try decoying coyotes during this upcoming "prime time", whether his dog is a 115 lb. mastiff, a 15 lb. JRT, or a 35 lb. cur!!! This topic ties back into the OTHER thread about recommending & encouraging other hunters to "just try your dog out and see what happens". Well, consider this for a moment...

What if that hunter, who'd otherwise not be in the field, takes his dog out in the next month to "try" on stand, gets lucky and kills a coyote? As he proudly stands over his pet dog's first coyote experience, he notices that he has just shot dead, a WET female. Maybe he realizes that there is a litter of pups in the ground somewhere, maybe he doesn't. He might only remember that the guys on Predator Masters collectively encouraged him to "try it out and see what happens" without mentioning the part that, as a result of him killing an adult coyote, there might be a den of helpless pups now without a mother to sustain them.

Is that HIS fault for not knowing better, or those who encouraged him here in this forum's fault for not sharing that 'unsavory' part with him???
Is it nobody's fault and coyotes are not worth the consideration?

Think about that a minute before you jump on me for asking.

Maybe some you guys might want to take pause before encouraging guys to try a dog in the spring/summer, maybe not. That's up to you guys. I'm just offering up something to ponder & playing "devil's advocate" again to encourage everyone to look at the big picture of what happens when "average" hunters are encouraged to hunt with a dog this time of year.

I figure, 99 times out of 100, those same "average" hunters are either not aware of, not willing to, or not capable of, handling a denning situation after taking the adults out of an area. I know I'm not, and I'm not comfortable with knowing that a litter of pups might be in a hole somewhere that need taken care of.


Would anyone care to comment on recommending/ running decoy dogs during the summer when there are young pups in the ground?
And for the guy who plan on it, do you feel that it is worth the effort to see your dog 'work' if you run the risk of leaving pups in a hole somewhere?
Are you prepared to see through a denning situation after taking an adult? Or do you walk away with your camera, dog & gun without giving it a second thought?

This is where the casual/recreational side of enjoying a 'decoy dog' crosses over into why ADC men employ the use of them. So I'd sure like to hear how the recreational hunters are prepared to handle that type of situation?

Like I said, 'touchy' subject. But I'd like to hear the "decoy doggers" opinions (not you kirby wink ) & especially from the guys who are in the decoy dog business to make a profit.

Jesse, I'd like to hear from you, too, since you run hounds. Do you run in the spring/summer? If so, how do you handle the denning aspect after an adult is taken?


Thanks...

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#2198156 - 04/10/12 10:27 AM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
And please keep in mind, I'm not preaching!
I shared my opinion above and would very much like to here from everyone who has participated in this thread.
We are all big boys & do what we please, I'd just like to hear about your take on spring/summer recreational decoy doggin' & recommending that pursuit to the "average" hunter trying a pet dog on stand...

thoughts?
comments?
opinions?


Edited by knockemdown (04/10/12 10:29 AM)

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#2198167 - 04/10/12 10:45 AM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming
This has been a good subject. I tried to play the devils advocate but you wouldnt bite. LOL My opinion is that what happens after the shot is as equal importance to me as is what happens before the shot. Example: If I have two or more coyotes come in at once and I shoot one (usually the least aggressive) I dont want my dog running out to wool the one I shot. I want the dogs to try and engage the ones that are still alive and bring them back.

I am a recreational guy and my coyote hunting is just getting ramped up. You make some very good points about the recreational hunter doing what is necessary after taking a wet female. I do everything I can to make sure there are no survivors. My two boys who are now 9 and 4 now love going with me. They love to watch the dogs and coyotes as much as I and my oldest now packing his own 223. I was wondering how they would handle the first time cleaning out a hole. At first they gave the "But dad they are just babies". I explained it much in the same way you have. They are fine with it now and usually keep a little distance at that time.

Good points.

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#2198214 - 04/10/12 12:12 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: Dustballs]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
Good question Fred. I battle that subject and Im somewhat uneasy with the thought of it. I think you can push it right to the edge without having to be confronted with the denning aspect. April, then July and August are great times for prime dog work. I didnt kill any wet females in July last year. It is possible to run into one but I didnt. I guess you could raise that question on any animal though. How about dillos? Hogs? Skunk? Some animals get a free pass when talking about this subject. Just a thought.
_________________________
You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2198225 - 04/10/12 12:41 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: btech29]
kirby Offline
PM senior

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 7902
Loc: nowheresville
As for nursing from what I've seen. Pups are introduced to regurged prey quite early. Around 6wks old give or take.

Around 8wks + some will still suckle if the female is still producing milk. Et she still tolerates the pounding of her pups. Even during that time some will start to eat insects as well as small prey their parents killed & brought back.

Even if the female is killed off during those latter wks. The male will take over her duties providing meat. As well as teaching his young to hunt & explore.

Female Red regurging for her young pups. Video clip taken the other day. Click on the pic.


Edited by kirby (04/10/12 12:46 PM)
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#2198248 - 04/10/12 01:24 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: kirby]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: dustballs
This has been a good subject. I tried to play the devils advocate but you wouldnt bite. LOL


I did bite, just that I told the honest truth, best I know how. One doesn't ever have to remember what one has said if it was the truth wink smile

Thank you for adding to the conversation!!! I'm glad to see that you do everything in your power to act responsibly and teach your young men to do the same.
I like to remember GC's sigline here on the board. It read "doing the right thing isn't always easy, but it's always right"
IMHO, you are doing "right", dustballs...

Originally Posted By: btech29
I guess you could raise that question on any animal though. How about dillos? Hogs? Skunk? Some animals get a free pass when talking about this subject. Just a thought.

Jeff, Yes, you could raise that question, but I'd sure like to keep the topic within the realm of decoy dogs and coyotes. So unless Spot 'decoys' skunks & dillos ON PURPOSE (don't answer that!!! laugh ) let's stay focused on coyotes, please.
I see that kirby wants to talk about foxes vomiting on each other, instead of decoy dogs & coyotes, but I can't add anything to that confused

OK, to the rest of you doggers: you've been 'decoyed' into the conversation, so don't run away now!!! wink
Let us know your opinions on decoy doggin' in the spring/summer, how you go about the work of finding & handling a den AND if you think recommending a novice to "try it out for himself" is a good idea during this time???


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#2198254 - 04/10/12 01:32 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: kirby]
DTOM Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Far from the crowds
The trouble with only killing one adult is that you run the chance of turning the remaining adult into a problem animal. Lone adults often turn to the easiest food source to keep up with the needs of the young. Most often this is stock or other "man made" food sources.

Working dens is awful hard without the right tools or dogs. I would guess most guys wouldn't bother with it. Just finding them is a challenge if your dogs are not "tuned" to backtrack to them.

I guess I'm lucky as I have a financial incentive to find each coyote and not just a moral one.
_________________________
Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life.

Dont Tread On Me

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#2198260 - 04/10/12 01:59 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: DTOM]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
Sorry Fred. Not meaning to get off track. Here's my opinion on summer time coyotes. Its better not to do it. I wont bash anyone if they want to do it. If its bad then the state should close the season. If the state dont choose to close season then there may be a need for it.
_________________________
You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2198279 - 04/10/12 02:40 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
DTOM Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Far from the crowds
Originally Posted By: knockemdown
OK, to the rest of you doggers: you've been 'decoyed' into the conversation, so don't run away now!!! wink
Let us know your opinions on decoy doggin' in the spring/summer, how you go about the work of finding & handling a den AND if you think recommending a novice to "try it out for himself" is a good idea during this time???



I find dens a couple different ways. I always have an idea where the dens are from locating either early morning before sun up or late night after dark. Kinda like roosting turkeys the night before a hunt. I travel areas of the ranch that historically have had dens and often find new residents in old den sites or very near them. I also will listen to where a pair of coyotes howl from and then make notes on topo maps and mapping gps and develope a "game plan" on how to get to the "place" I want to be in reguards to location of coyotes and direction of the wind, the sun and other terrain features that I want to use to my advantage instead of the coyotes using them to their advantage. After a while you get to have a sense about where a K9 will den and if you map year after year you will have a historical record to back up your search.

That alone generally puts me near the the den. I then call and hopefully decoy the adults off the den. Often this means not shooting ther first coyote to appear and work the dogs. I want the coyote to make a huge ruckus and attract the other adults. I then will choose the least aggressive coyote to shoot first. It is often the female that will hold back "off" the dogs but not always. I then will use the dogs to work any live coyotes back into gun range and take them as well. By shooting from back to front and least aggressive to most aggressive you are increasing your odds at getting more then one to work you and the dogs. After the shot and recovery of the adults I will have the dogs back track to the den. I personally believe that a dog has to learn to track backwards as it is not in too many good dogs nature to backtrack a hot track. Once a dog gets the hang of it and realizes that they can find more coyotes by backtracking they will do it on their own and make quick work of finding the den.

Once we have physically found the den I let the decoy dogs work it over quite a bit as I watch from a distance in hopes of getting any other adult coyotes to show themselves. I never used to do it that way. I would just turn the terriers loose and let the chips fall as they may but after loosing a few terriers and seeing that decoy dogs can and will draw other adult coyotes out I have started doing it to save on wear and tear to the terriers. An adult coyote in the ground is a tough job for a terrier to handle and better left to a bigger dog and a rifle if you can help it.

Once I am reasonably certain that we have all the adults I will let the terriers work the den and draw any pups they find out. You could also dig them out or poison the den or smoke it out if it is legal where you are but I love the dog work and the terrier spirit so I use them more than any other way.

Tools of the trade are shovels, breaker bars, picks, axes, a well stocked first aid kit on you and a better one in the truck, water for the dogs and you, and all the other assorted calling and dog handling supplies you would normally take. I use a 6x6 polaris utv but you could also use a horse or the boot leather express. In a good day I will work 2-5 dens. I am at it from well before sun up to well after sun down. I plan for 3-5 week trips and like to work in a circuit of ranches. The ranches I work love to see me and the dogs pull up and often we will either camp or stay in a bunk house on the ranches we work. Most of my contacts come from either cattlemens assoc. or sheepherders assoc. with a smattering of private ranchers thrown in as well.

Sounds easy when you read it but in reality it is a ton of work and time. Let alone the cost of keeping decoy dogs and terriers. I love it and as much as I love fur hunting I can not wait until the spring comes and I again find myself following my dogs across the great wide open. I mostly do it to make some pocket money and pay for hunting trips and equipment, dog food and to keep the "old school" way alive. I've been lucky to have had some great denners to teach me the ways of using dogs to den. I feel that working the dens provides a service for the ranches and a tether to my past, the past of my forefathers and the working past of the dogs I keep that is disappearing from the rural American landscape as the older generation passes on to the hunting stands in the sky.

Tim
_________________________
Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life.

Dont Tread On Me

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#2198293 - 04/10/12 03:22 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: DTOM]
CAT DADDY COLD Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 1161
Loc: Comanche OK
Perfect post.

Tim,
When I retire from my day job, can me and my dogs get a summer job with you?

Stay after them and don't kill all the okie coyotes this year...lol

Kelly



Edited by CAT DADDY COLD (04/10/12 03:22 PM)
_________________________
Killin coyotes is not chess its checkers…..don’t over think it.

Kelly Jackson - Foxpro Field Staff

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#2198333 - 04/10/12 04:45 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: CAT DADDY COLD]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
Well written Tim. Alot of information and just and enjoyable read.

Thanks for sharing.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2198362 - 04/10/12 05:35 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: TonyTebbe]
SHampton Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 1778
Loc: BAOklahoma
I try not to shoot wet females. I want there to be as many coyotes as possible for me to hunt. I hunt for fun and don't shoot coyotes from the road simply because I figure that's just another one I might be able to hunt at some point. Plus, I suck at finding dens.

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#2198433 - 04/10/12 07:25 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: SHampton]
Catdawg Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/13/09
Posts: 121
Loc: Nevada
Tim- Great posts, you are living the dream buddy.

Tony- Great posts as well, you are also living the dream.

The majority of the rest of us, Fred included, are just regular guys that try and go hunt some coyotes when we can and some of us try and take a dog with us, when we can.

I don't care if my dog costs me 5 coyotes a day (never has that I know of) she's coming along or I am staying home, year round.

As far as telling people that are new to the game, to go for it with whatever dog they have... I will keep on, keeping on. If they are so inclined to go give it a try, they have every right.

As far as leaving pups in the den, I don't give a hoot or holler about them pups. Like someone said, the male will raise the pups on his own if they are weaned, or for all I care, they can perish. Nature is cruel and this is a harsh world we live in. I call it feeding Badgers.

Fred- I have a couple questions for you. What do you care how someone else hunts or what dog they carry to the field? Does it really matter if someone takes a dog that you feel would never make a decoy dog and goes and has some fun, successful or not?

In the right country a guy with a Cane Corso could do a lot better than you have admittedly done with your, bred for it Cur dog.

I'm sure you have had a good time out with your dog even with your limited success. So again, why are you the only one that is allowed to go give it a whirl? Would you feel different if everyone had a Cur that wanted to go give her a whirl?

Take care.

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#2198469 - 04/10/12 08:19 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: Catdawg]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Catdawg

Fred- I have a couple questions for you. What do you care how someone else hunts or what dog they carry to the field? Does it really matter if someone takes a dog that you feel would never make a decoy dog and goes and has some fun, successful or not?


Easy Mason, I don't.
And no, it doesn't matter at all what I feel. My opinion is worth the same as anyone else's, so take it for whatever you think it's worth. Just making conversation, and obviously this thread has some wheels turning... smile

Quote:
As far as telling people that are new to the game, to go for it with whatever dog they have... I will keep on, keeping on. If they are so inclined to go give it a try, they have every right.


Absolutely. This is the US of A, do whatever ya like. But I dang sure ain't gonna encourage someone to try something that I persnally might disagree with. And if I disagree with something, I will occasionally exercise my right to let that be known, instead of turning a blind eye. Its obvious by the other member posts in this thread that I'm not alone...

Quote:

In the right country a guy with a Cane Corso could do a lot better than you have admittedly done with your, bred for it Cur dog.

I'll got ahead and call BULL$HIT on that one, right there. Prove it, or the speculation ain't worth the paper it was wrote on.
And since you guys keep bringing up MY dog, I think IF my dog were given the conditions to shine, I truly think he just might make some halfazzed decoy dog. After all, Mason, haven't you hunted with at least a few of the dogs in his ancestry??? wink
If they weren't $hit, they'd have caught a bullet, NO???

Like someone wrote above, I AM THE MAIN REASON my dog hasn't seen more coyotes. I choose to live here, so it is 100% my fault and I take 100% full responsibility.

Someday, I'll make a trip somewhere "good" to show him some coyotes, since I have open invites to do just that with some good friends. Or, I could just as easily remain happy with him for what he already does to please me. I have nothing to prove to anyone, but myself...

Quote:

I'm sure you have had a good time out with your dog even with your limited success. So again, why are you the only one that is allowed to go give it a whirl? Would you feel different if everyone had a Cur that wanted to go give her a whirl?


Mason, you're reading too much into my motives without actually knowing them.
I don't think that at all. Nor does the breed of dog have anything to do with it. Again, you are reaching, but why, I ask? If you are attempting to trip me up with my own words, good luck with that! I'm telling the truth, as I see it, and being as honest as possible, so keep on asking & I'll keep on answering. But that's just de-railing the topic again, so I'll get us back on track... wink

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#2198471 - 04/10/12 08:20 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: SHampton]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: SHampton
I try not to shoot wet females. I want there to be as many coyotes as possible for me to hunt. I hunt for fun and don't shoot coyotes from the road simply because I figure that's just another one I might be able to hunt at some point. Plus, I suck at finding dens.


Scott, I respect that. Can you please elaborate on how you can positively identify a "wet" female in the field before shooting one?

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