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#2196071 - 04/06/12 02:25 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: SHampton]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: SHampton
How many coyotes a year does your dog "decoy" Fred?


Scott, since the last three coyotes he actually did "decoy" in September, my dog has gone ZERO for 12 on the coyotes that I've called in and physically SEEN with my own eyes. How's that for a dismal success rate scared

Every single coyote has absolutely turned inside/out & boogered at the sight of him running toward them. Can't decoy a coyote that's running for it's life, which they do from hound hunters all season long here in NY.
I'm actually quite proud of myself for even calling in that many here in NY, but my 'decoy dog' experiment has been an complete & utter failure here.
Funny, I hunt in Oklahoma every year and somehow kill the friggin' crap outta coyotes? I certainly am envious of your easily negotiated terrain & your coyotes willingness to die!!!

But, to answer your question honestly, I will say again that my dog has decoyed in exactly ZERO coyotes this fur season.

Which is precisely why I don't proclaim to be any sort of 'decoy dog' expert and never hid that fact, or said otherwise.

My dog makes me smile in alot of other ways, so I can't say I'm disappointed with him, in the least. Mainly, because my expectations were kept in check after speaking with guys who run decoy dogs for more than a weekend hobby. Guys like that cut through the 'hype' about using dogs on stand and I appreciate & value their knowledge, which has pretty much been spot on.

But your question wasn't really about my dog, correct?

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#2196100 - 04/06/12 03:14 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
SHampton Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 1778
Loc: BAOklahoma
I hunt coyotes appx. 120 days a year. It's pure pleasure and not business related in any way shape or form so I guess I fall in the middle of the 2 groups you described. If you're gonna be in OK let me know. Ive got lots of ground some of it has suicidal coyotes and some of it has pretty smart ones. We can try to decoy and kill some of both.

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#2196194 - 04/06/12 06:50 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: SHampton]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
fred, i think it depends on the size of the dog, i'm not going to take my wifes winner dog but i know of a good decoy dog that started out as the guys wife's house dog, it was a jrt and he was so full of energy that the guy decided to start taking him to work to burn some of it off, before long he had a jam up decoy dog, if the dog is regural size then i say try it if the dog will mind, but from what i have seen most dogs dont mind well enough to be controled on stand if they dont know whats going on. and yes i think you have to bring it out in any dog, coon, baying or decoying, i just dont think a decoy dog has to have as many born in traits as some working dogs.
on a side note sorry this thread has taken a turn on you, i like it when there are good discussions on dogs, even if i dont agree with everything, its good to read what people think if it doesnt turn to a pissing match
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2196263 - 04/06/12 08:38 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: trapper2]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Thanks again, Ryan.
I don't see why any "regular" sized dog couldn't possibly make a decoy dog either. I was just asking to illict some responses...

And I do realize I'm prolly the 'bad guy' for stirring the pot with some provocative questions. But I try not to say anything personal if unprovoked, since it kinda defeats the purpose of asking those questions in the 1st place. The quickest way for a thread to go south is to get personal, so steering clear of that keeps the communication flowing...

Scott, if I ever get out your way, I might just take you up on your offer! And I DO appreciate the gesture. Man, if I weren't 1,350 miles away, I'd be there with bells on every chance I get...

Since you posted how many days a year you hunt, maybe you can help me cut through some of the 'hype' too wink
How many of those 120 days a year you hunt do you carry a dog?
And of those days with the dog on stand, about what % of the coyotes you call in will work the dog?
And when I say "work", I mean engage & chase the dog back to your calling location?
Lastly (to tie back to the original thread) why do you think a coyote chases YOUR dog back to you? I'm sure you've seen in enough to form your own opinion, so hopefully you'll share it with us???

Again, this isn't to single YOU out. I'm just trying to get some honest information laid on the table, so to speak...

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#2196292 - 04/06/12 09:24 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
SHampton Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 1778
Loc: BAOklahoma
I got my dog Thanksgiving weekend. I take him every trip out and I will do so regardless of the time of year. I enjoy the company of him and the pup. Nov. thru mid Jan. 50% give or take worked him. I can't recall 1 instance where a called coyote didn't lock in on the dog and focus on him allowing 15 plus seconds for a standing shot. Several times coyotes came blazin in and smelled the call and ran off and then stopped and turned to look at the dog. Past few weeks they have become a little more aggressive. I'm trimming, or trying to trim, a video of a young male that was directly downwind and came within 10 yards of me several times. I have not lost or missed a shot opportunity because of the dog. My big dog is not aggressive and I think that is a huge part of coyotes not bugging out on him. Between me and the few guys I hunt with we've killed 31 coyotes that either worked the dog or stopped to check him out and, as you know, there have been a dozen or so decoyed and not shot. I think Kirby's assesment of why they chase the dog is very accurate from what I have seen in the 5 months I've used a dog.

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#2196309 - 04/06/12 09:45 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: SHampton]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
I'm going agree on Kirby's assessment. You don't hear me say that often. Hahahah. lol I've filmed coyote-coyote interaction, as well as watched plenty of it. They act no different to a coyote, than they do a dog. I'm not really sure a coyote knows a dog is a dog or if it thinks it's a coyote...don't really care. If you get a chance to watch my DVD, you'll see some of the best coyote-coyote interaction that I've ever seen filmed, at the end of my 2nd disk.

I really think it's a territorial thing. If a dog gives chase to a coyote, it's the breaking from the chase that triggers the coyote into fight vs flee. The breaking of the chase shows a sign of weakness and they capitalize. That isn't always the case, as some coyotes keep on running and others charge in to take a dog down at first sight, without any chase at all.

Here's some pics from the other day of a pizzed off male that attacked Gunner at first sight.







They locked up for a good minute or so and Gunner had to show him who's boss.





The coyote ran and Gunner gave chase. He broke from the chase and the coyote switched rolls and chased back to me....and the gun.



Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2196314 - 04/06/12 09:51 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: TonyTebbe]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
Thems some dang cool pics Tony! Dang cool!
_________________________
You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2196321 - 04/06/12 10:00 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: btech29]
ARCOREY Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 4839
Loc: USA
Love the Gunner body slam picture. He's a machine smile.

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#2196329 - 04/06/12 10:22 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: btech29]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
.


Edited by btech29 (04/07/12 01:01 AM)
_________________________
You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2196344 - 04/06/12 10:42 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: btech29]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
fred your not the bad guy in my mind, just a guy asking ?'s

tony those are some nice pics

jeff, i know we talked about it the other night but some people dont carry a camera, i have tryed, never was good at it, i know guys that have hours of video that alot of people would kill to watch, i know guys that have great dogs and dont even have a pic of them working, just because people arent seeing it dont mean it aint happening
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2196355 - 04/06/12 10:57 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: trapper2]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
.


Edited by btech29 (04/07/12 01:00 AM)
_________________________
You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2196360 - 04/06/12 11:02 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: btech29]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
jeff i'm just saying that there are guys that do and do it real well that never video, same as there are guys that kill abunch of coyotes and nobody ever knows about it, i wasnt trying to get in a numbers game or anything, talk to you guys later
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2196364 - 04/06/12 11:10 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: SHampton]
Awakeland Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 122
Loc: IL
.


Edited by Awakeland (04/07/12 10:27 AM)
_________________________
Wakeland
"After all these years I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her."-Mark Twain
"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid."-John Wayne

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#2196377 - 04/06/12 11:45 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: trapper2]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
.






Edited by btech29 (04/07/12 01:04 AM)
_________________________
You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2196453 - 04/07/12 07:56 AM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: btech29]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Tony, those pics are cool as he!!, but I've got some questions for you, now... unsure

Of the hundreds and hundreds of coyotes that Gunner has decoyed, about what % of them just steamrolled in, dropped the gloves and went straight to fighting, as shown in your photos above?

Is that behavior the norm, or the exception?

Do you find that super aggresive behavior happening more frequently at any particular time of year?

Are these predominantly males or females?

Pups or adults?

I'm asking because, in the natural world, there is a progression of posturing & 'bluffing' that occurs before a fight ensues. In nature, fighting is a LAST resort and most every wild animal on the planet will resort to a physical fight only under the most dire (life threatening) circumstances. That is key to survival, since fighting very easily could = death for both parties, and nature doesn't cycle correctly with suicide bombers... wink

That said, I think it is precisely that pre-fight posturing & bluffing behavior that a good 'decoy' dog will learn to capitalize on to bring coyotes back to daddy. They realize the gravity of the situation, so they 'play the game' because survival dictates that fighting is a LAST resort.

Anyhoo, in the case of those photos, do you find it preferable that Gunner fights the coyote, instead of him turning tail and luring him back to you?

If a coyote is 'suicidal' enough to pile right into a fight, shouldn't that same coyote be bold enough to follow Gunner right back into your lap?

Are you encouraging that aggressive behavior in Gunner, just to see it?
Or, have you found that aggressive fight behavior translates into more coyotes being 'decoyed' on stand?

Why didn't Gunner just kill that coyote like all the other ones you've mentioned he does?

What made Gunner stop fighting and decide to come back to you?
Did the tables turn after the "bodyslam" & he quit the fight on his own, or did you 'tone' him off from killing that coyote?

In all of your posting ,Tony, that is THE most puzzling thing for me to figure out. Just can't wrap my head around it! What makes Gunner decide to kill one coyote, and decoy the next? Do you have any control over that, whatsoever?

Or is Gunner on 'autopilot', killing the coyotes he can, and quitting when he's losing?
Are all the coyotes that Gunner catches & kills YOY in the fall, or adults?

How does that all shake out???

I'm honestly at a loss to figure out what makes a dog passively 'decoy' one coyote, then flat out kill another one. How does that 180 degree, completely opposite behavior come about?

Dont worry, I'm gonna buy your DVD anyway wink so help us newbies understand what is really happening?

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