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#2195435 - 04/05/12 10:16 AM What makes a coyote chase a dog?
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Serious questions for those of you that have 'decoy' dogs.

In your opinion, what is it about YOUR dog that makes a coyote want to engage it?

If you don't have, or haven't tried 'decoying' coyotes, please hold your supposition, I want to hear about personal experience with YOUR decoy dog(s) smile

We all know that if a coyote doesn't engage your dog, and follow it back to your position, it really isn't being "decoyed". Distracted perhaps, but not decoyed.
So what does YOUR dog do & how does it trip a coyote's trigger to chase it back to you?
Is that skill set trained by you, or is it a natural behavior that your dog has that just needed exposure & development???

Is it the physical appearance (size or color) of your dog that matters?

Is it your dog's attitude on stand (passive, aggressive, vocal) that causes a coyote to engage?

If a coyote won't "decoy" initially, how does your dog stay after that coyote until it brings on an attack or chase response?


Secondly,
How important do you feel breeding is to making a 'decoy' dog?

Houndsman who hunt treehounds & running dogs always seem to recommend getting a pup from 'proven' hunting stock because the genetics odds are in favor of that pup having those same traits. This makes perfect sense to me & many others who want to get started with a good prospect.

If that is the case, then what makes a 'decoy' dog any different?

Why do some guys here encourage any/all newcomers to "try XXX dog out on stand and see what he does"?

I can understand encouraging guys to enjoy their dogs, but is that really sound advice to give a beginner?

If you had a new hunter come on the forum wanting to make a Rottweiler a coon hound, would you encourage him to get or use a Rottweiler? Or would you try to steer him toward a proven coon dog breed like a bluetick, walker, (cur wink ) etc.?


The reason I'm asking is because it seems like most guys here will encourage ANYONE to try ANY dog as a "decoy" dog.

WHY IS THAT?

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#2195489 - 04/05/12 12:17 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
Catdawg Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/13/09
Posts: 121
Loc: Nevada
I take it that this question was posed to me, so I'll bite.

I have told newcomers to try their dog out if they were so inclined, simply because I enjoy my time in the woods so much more if I have a dog with me. It doesn't matter if I am hunting, camping, fishing or just out fartin around.

I have raised several decoy dogs, all either Kemmer Curs or Cur crosses and have had some pretty nice dogs that spoke coyote and some that would never have made a decoy dog and a mojo would have done the same job, minus the feed and clean-up.

Then I went out calling with a Govt. Hunter friend of mine in N. Utah as he wanted to see one of my dogs work coyotes. When he got out of his truck and unloaded a sheepdog, I almost [beeep]. I learned that day and have seen it several other times, it isn't the breed of dog necessarily, it is a type of dog you need to make a decoy dog.

Sure there are breeds that will definitely produce that "Type" of dog much more consistantly than others, but if a guy has a dog and it's his buddy, who am I to tell him the dog won't make a decoy dog? I guarantee internet banter and walks through the neighborhood won't tell if the dog will make a decoy dog either. So what harm does it do to take the dog out a few times and see what happens? I'm guessing that's how decoy dogs got started in the first place.

Back to your original question. I think coyotes chase dogs for many different reasons. Territory, breeding, plain old curiosity, hunger at times, etc. Have you ever seen a feral dog running with a pack of yotes? I wonder how that came about as they surely bumped into each other at some point and figured it out that they would welcome the new comer to the fold. That may be what the coyote is trying to do to your dog, right before you send a hot lead pill down his throat.

Have you ever taken your dog to the dog park? Dogs like to play and smart dogs LOVE to play. Decoy dogs have to be pretty smart to do what they do and the ones that I have seen, that were the best at it, made it a game that they LOVED to play. They knew that if they brought that coyote in close enough, they got to chew on it after I shot it. It was a lot like some games dogs play at the dog park... pick a fight and run back to the safety of your owner. I have seen it a hundred times from big great danes running from high strung little spaniels, to little yorkies running from another terrier. Then as soon as the other dog turns it's attention elsewhere, the game is back on.

Take care and happy hunting.


Edited by Catdawg (04/05/12 12:21 PM)

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#2195528 - 04/05/12 02:30 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: Catdawg]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Thank you for an honest post, Mason.

You mention a "type" of dog for decoying.

Along the same logic, isn't a coon dog a certain "type" of dog?
Does the fact that any 'gamey' dog will jump up at a caged coon in a tree make a 'coon dog'? Almost any dog with prey drive will want a piece of coon fur, so what sets the coonhound apart?

And doesn't a fox or stag hound possess a different "type" set of traits that make it a 'running dog'?
I'm sure that there are PLENTY of breeds that will sight chase a coyote. But because a dog possesses that trait, does it warrant the title fox hound/staghound?

My questions are focused on figuring out why the term 'decoy dog' is so ambiguous?
And what makes any ol' dog capable of being one?
Is that really an accurate assement, anymore than saying any ol' dog can be a coon dog?


Sure, every hunter might want their dog to work a coyote somewhat differently, depending on several factors.
But the common denominator remains that a 'decoy dog' will need to somehow MAKE THAT COYOTE engage AND follow it back to the gun.
Much the same that a staghound must RUN TO CATCH and a coondog must TRAIL TO TREE.


So again, I'm not disputing that there is the possibility that ANY dog breed might make a decoy dog.
But can't the same be said for a coon dog? or running dog?

And, despite the ambiguity of the term 'decoy dog', does anyone HONESTLY think a 100+ lb. mastiff breed is worth "trying out to see" if it'll work a coyote on stand?

Or are these words of encouragement just to have a dog along to chew on a dead coyote?

If that is what floats someone's boat, then as I wrote before, have at it! But that's certainly not something I'm going to encourage, since there's already plenty too much hype surrounding 'decoy dogs'. It's obvious that guys like to see that "recovery" stuff (which is fine), but that isn't going to up anyone's coyote take for the year and might only wind up having a pet get chewed up by a wounded coyote.
Again, not something I will encourage anyone to do.

Just my $.02 and hope to get more comments!




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#2195698 - 04/05/12 08:27 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming
Fred I have to ask what kind of dog would you recommend for a decoy dog? Would the breed matter? Is there only one breed you would recommend because that is what you have?

Fred what would you tell someone if they came on this site or any other site and asked about getting a Karelian Bear Dog as a decoy dog? Would you suggest something different?

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#2195699 - 04/05/12 08:27 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
Catdawg Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/13/09
Posts: 121
Loc: Nevada
Comparing Tree dogs to Decoy dogs is not comparing Apples to Apples. It takes a little more of a specified skill set to trail and tree critters, that is a whole other topic.

Before I knew better, I would have swore to you that you needed a cur to decoy coyotes and to do it very well, on the level needed to perform ADC work, why wouldn't you? Get the right tool for the job.

There are many more ways to skin a cat in most everything you do. I have some buddies in Idaho that tree lions with cow dogs. I also have a friend in California that sometimes trees bears with his pointers. Both instances these guys just have the dogs along and they tree critters. They know that Hounds would put much more game in the tree, but they're happy with the dogs they feed and that's fine with me.

If someone wants to get very serious about decoying as many coyotes as they can with dogs, I would certainly recommend they look at the Mountain Cur breeds. But then again, look at Tebbe's Gunner dog. He should be a hog dog, not a decoy dog, but he don't know that.

I would never tell someone to go check it out with the wife's chorkie, as that could end very badly, but if someone has a dog they think could handle a confrontation... Best of luck and giver her [beeep].

If dogs like Saber and Cougar can decoy yotes... I wouldn't be surprised if any big aggressive dog could get the job done. I'm not saying on every stand with every coyote, maybe not even enough to make it fun, but you have to go to know.

Take care.

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#2195736 - 04/05/12 09:24 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: Catdawg]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
I'll also bite,
Along the same lines as Catdawg was saying, I know guys that tree lions with cowdogs, also chase hogs with cowdogs. I know a guy that hunts coons with a German Short hair.
Breed alone is not as important as "traits" of a certain dog. So the breeding part is,just try to breed a dog with the traits you would like for a "decoy dog, or coon dog, or cow dog or whatever.
No dog or breed will get a coyote to "engage" if it don't want to.No dog, I don't care who's it is will get every coyote to "engage".
The dogs that get more yotes to come in, are the ones that can play the coyote long enough that it finally looses its temper, or is convinced the dog is no threat and just is curious.Not uncommon to spend 30min to an hour with a dog working a coyote,or coyotes.A black lab would not be my first choice for a decoy dog,nor would a Cur cross be my first choice for a pheasant dog, but if that was the only dog I had I would sure give him a try.
So... what is wrong with anybody taking any dog, that they already own, out on a calling stand, and see how it reacts/interacts, with a coyote. I do it every time I take a pup to the feild, I don't know whats gonna happen, until the first real "decoy".From that I decdide how to move forward with that pup. If one pup is a "dough head", I don't cull the whole litter, no more than I would do a cross agin if only one pup out of 8 showed any potential.
The term "decoy dog", is very open,for every ten guys, there are 8.5 definitions of the "perfect decoy dog".
I think the biggest reason is that coyotes inhabit every type of ground in the country, so no one type of dog can be an "advantage" everywhere.
I have freinds in the southeast, that I enjoy hunting with, and I like there dogs,(in their country)Those dogs just aren't what I need to get it done here. On the flip side, my best dog, taken to Florida, would be no help.
_________________________


"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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#2195777 - 04/05/12 10:43 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
altabonita Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 142
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: knockemdown

And, despite the ambiguity of the term 'decoy dog', does anyone HONESTLY think a 100+ lb. mastiff breed is worth "trying out to see" if it'll work a coyote on stand?



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#2195789 - 04/05/12 11:06 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
kirby Offline
PM senior

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 7902
Loc: nowheresville
True short Story; Hunting buddy turned out his lone 85 lb male greyhound/coyote dog on a 47 lb female coyote. The chase was on, greyhound closing the gap.

Greyhound caught the coyote. A hard one on one fight followed. Eventually the greyhound was losing the fight. Greyhound broke free from the fight & ran towards his master's pick-up. Female coyote gave chase. Coyote caught the greyhound & whipped up on his some more.

Again, the greyhound broke free & ran for his master's truck. Again, the coyote took chase & caught the greyhound once more. She hammered his butt one more time. Finally the dog's master drove towards the fight to back-up his dog. Coyote broke & ran.

Why did that coyote give chase wanting to fight that dog even more? I'll tell you why. That coyote "sized-up" that dog during the fight. She knew she could whip that dog & she did repeated times. Believe it or not, some canines will do payback if hammered before.

You watch any decoying action. The coyote is constantly sizing up it's potential foe.

Dogs size up other dogs
Dogs size up intruder people
Coyotes size up coyotes
Coyotes size up dogs or any other animal.
Whether they give chase or fight or run away is up to that individual coyote.


Edited by kirby (04/05/12 11:06 PM)
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retired

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#2195802 - 04/05/12 11:24 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: kirby]
SHampton Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 1778
Loc: BAOklahoma
I filmed over 30 minutes of footage today of my dogs and a coyote sizing each other up. The dogs turned in retreat every time the coyote charged. Coyote was from 15 to 30 yards straight down wind of me the entire time. I would like for my dog to have gone to the coyote a little more than he did, but on the other hand he didn't run him off. I would post the video but some people can't keep from being pricks because one dog doesn't necessarily hunt they way they think he should, so instead of people sharing videos and and enjoying the forum people just keep them to themselves. Also, I agree with Kirby's assessment.

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#2195809 - 04/05/12 11:27 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: altabonita]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
duane you are wishing on the 8.5, ha, ask 10 guys and get 30 different ideas. just poking, ha

i think with treeing dogs and baying dogs you are looking for traits that you cant train, trailing, treeing, loose or tight baying. with decoying i think, and i said "I" not anyone else, i think the very first thing a person needs is a dog that is trainable and wants to please you, if a dog wants to please you and has the brains to learn then there is a real good chance he will make a decoy dog, most of decoying can be taught, a dog needs to go to a coyote, stop and come back, yep some do it alot better then some, some take to it the first time and some take awhile, if a dog has some born in traits then that helps and is even better but my two cents is if they want to please you and got brains then try them. is every dog with those two things the dog i want, no, i like small dogs but i have used a 80 pd cur and a 30 pd border collie. i am luck that i know alot of guys that have had decoy dogs since before the intnet started and people found out about them, i have seen and heard of everything from blue heelers, jack russells, border collies, curs, and anything else that a person could find, the one thing they all had was they wanted to please. i'm not saying that guys like duane that raise a litter and sale is bad, he knows his dogs want to please and have some of the traits that will make it easier to get them there, i know cause i had one of his pups and she had both things i am talking about, plus she was the right size for me. but i think alot of folks get it in their head that if the dog is not from a certian line of dogs or the parents aren't decoy dogs then they will never work, wrong. i have had dogs that made good decoy dogs that their folks were hog dogs and had never worked a coyote in their life, but i knew they were what i was looking for in a dog, so i say if you have a dog that minds and is smart then try him
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2195818 - 04/05/12 11:36 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: trapper2]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
fred i forgot the first part, i think what make the coyote want to ingage my dog is "my dog being there" the same reason some dont want to ingage "my dog being there", i think size plays a role, color maybe, attitude, yes, but the deal is all these things play a role but all different at different times of the year. you asked how a dog gets one to ingage if they dont really want to, like catdawg said its a game, i had one that was real good at it but it was just playing to him, he would do the same thing with my old dog at the house just to get her to play with him, he was just playing the game.
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2195831 - 04/05/12 11:50 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: kirby]
kirby Offline
PM senior

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 7902
Loc: nowheresville
One more thing to think about canine vs canine. I watched a documentary on coyotes some 20+yrs ago. A large male coyote tresspassed onto a local pr of coyotes territory.

The local pr was quite abit smaller in size vs the tresspasser coyote. The local small male seen the tresspasser & gave chase. The large tresspasser ran from the smaller male. Soon the local female seen the chase & joined her mate. To run off the large tresspasser.

This documentary was narrated. The narrator remarked the large male tresspasser ran from the small local male. Because it knew it was tresspassing. I happen to agree with the narrator on his assessment.

I've witnessed the same while hunting. Tresspassers know they are tresspassing. Et the locals know their territory boundries. Et will defend them.
_________________________
retired

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#2195970 - 04/06/12 10:38 AM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: kirby]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Kirby, you have a decoy dog?
And do you think that nature documentaries are edited exactly how the story line goes? Most nature shows I watch use any available footage captured, then make a story up to piece together that footage into something that makes a program...

Ryan (trapper), thanks for your insight.
I happen to think that trailing & treeing are both natural abilities as well. But the pup will still need some type of training to encourage that trait to develop, don't you agree?
Coon dog pups trailing & finding hotdog treats with their nose at a young age, or hanging things in a low branch to encourage treeing ability, that is all training, is it not?
And how many pups learn from following finished trailhounds. Is that not training???

If that pup were not exposed to those situations, do you think it would have the same chance of becoming the same caliber of dog?

After considering that, how is it really so different from encouraging & rewarding the 'play behavior' of a decoy dog? And is it too much of a stretch to assume that some working breeds might possess more of that natural ability than others?

And I apologize for putting you on the spot, Ryan, but do you think it's a good idea to recommend to an inquiring coyote hunter take their pet dog out on stand to "try them out"?
I'm sure you know better than most what a coyote can/will do to a dog on stand, so do you think that potential situation should be encouraged?


Originally Posted By: shampton
I would post the video but some people can't keep from being pricks because one dog doesn't necessarily hunt they way they think he should, so instead of people sharing videos and and enjoying the forum people just keep them to themselves.

If you are calling me a prick, then I accept that, happily. My idea of a prick might be different from yours. I might consider someone who'd bring a dog on stand without a gun to protect him a prick, but that's just me. It's all about perspective, and I don't hold that against anyone...
Regardless of that, not everyone is going to be a "fan" of something posted on the internet, so if "pricks" upset you, then you are better off keeping your vids to yourself.
And contrary to what you might think, if I saw something I like in your (or anyone else's) dog working, I wouldn't hesitate to give kudos!




Duane, thank you. By asking questions, I'm just trying to bring about some discussion. Some might feel that I'm taking jabs at them, but I'm only asking those people to back up what the are typing with some facts & logic to get a better understanding of why they hold that opinon.
That is not to say I have the "right" answers, I SURE DON'T!!! But the logical way to narrow things down is to ask questions of others. Questioning an opinion is paramount to substantiating it. Too bad not many here can answer a critical question without getting their egos bruised in the process. Obviously you can, so again thank you!





Originally Posted By: Dustballs
Fred I have to ask what kind of dog would you recommend for a decoy dog? Would the breed matter? Is there only one breed you would recommend because that is what you have?

Fred what would you tell someone if they came on this site or any other site and asked about getting a Karelian Bear Dog as a decoy dog? Would you suggest something different?


DB, I honestly am not in ANY position to recommend anything about decoy dogs. I can only share what little I've experienced for myself with my pup, and that is precious little. Some has been positive & fun, the rest frustrating (but still kinda fun).

As for NOT recommending a dog, in the case of the other post, that is another deal!

Obviously, that was a kid who was proud of his dog "solving" feral cat & pitbull problems in his town. Does it take an expert to interpret what "solving" means???
So, in that post, we have a young man with a 115 lb. mastiff breed that he's wanting to give more of a "challenge", since the feral cats & pitbulls have all been "solved". And he asks about bringing that SPECIFIC DOG on a coyote stand.
Well, I'm dang sure gonna speak out against doing so, because I feel that bringing that SPECIFIC DOG on a coyote stand be be a complete waste of time. And I honestly don't believe that a 'decoy dog' hunter would want that kind of dog on stand with them, do you???

Offering up analogies with other breeds is irrelevant. And I don't think that there is any particular ONE breed or cross that is head & shoulders above another. But I do subscribe to the notion that there is a "type" of dog that is best suited to being a decoy dog, and a 115 lb Cane Corso is about as far away opposite of that "type" that I could imagine! Short of a Tosa, or some freaky croatian wolf dogs...

Again, I'm asking questions in the spirit of conversation, not to preach from a pedastal. I've claimed ever claimed to be any kind of decoy dog expert, so perish the thought.

And that said, does someone here have to be an "expert" in order to ask questions that bring about discussion? That doesn't make any sense, because the "experts" are those who ideally should be ANSWERING thought provoking questions.

Call me a "prick", call me "devil's advocate", call me whatever you want. But if every one agreed all the time, forums wouldn't be much more that one big circle jerk. and I don't find that to be entertaining or educational...



thoughts?
Comments?
smile








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#2196009 - 04/06/12 11:59 AM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: knockemdown]
kirby Offline
PM senior

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 7902
Loc: nowheresville
No I don't own one or ever have owned one. I seen your request of others to not post comments to your questions. Unless they were experienced with decoy dogs. But I posted this info to shed more light on canine(dog or coyote) behavior.

The large 85 lb greyhound. Which got a little to close to a coyote.
Point being, the area was owned by the large female coyote. Dog tresspassed then attacked the coyote. Coyote stood her ground then hammered that dog repeatidly.

I posted these two stories to illustrate coyote behavior. Not necessarily on decoying dogs. It all ties in btw...ie; dog vs coyote, coyote vs coyote, dog vs dog, ect. Et their interactions.

As for what I've observed in the field of coyote vs coyote. Is a territorial pr will run off another coyote that is tresspassing.


Edited by kirby (04/06/12 12:00 PM)
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#2196046 - 04/06/12 12:58 PM Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? [Re: kirby]
SHampton Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 1778
Loc: BAOklahoma
How many coyotes a year does your dog "decoy" Fred?

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