Your preference BB vs 4 buck?

B

Bernie P.

New member
I started looking through the patterning thread to see what most preferred.With 38 pages I started going blind and batty for my efforts.How about we try to keep it simple and consolidate it down some by just listing just the gun,choke and load.For me-
Mberg 835
Mberg Ulti choke
Federal 3" buffered BB.
 
At this point I think the very best of the best would be tungsten BB or T's like the now discontinued Remington HD-BB load, Federal tungsten BB predator load, or the Dead Coyote T’s coupled with a choke of.050” - .060” constriction from your particular bore size. My pattern testing and in the field hunting experience would seem to indicate that this combination will give the max number of appropriately sized pellets (BB) which are harder and heavier than plated lead, fast enough at 1,300 fps for good energy and with considerably better pellet penetration on game. This type of load has patterned very consistently throughout all my shooting. A new shooter or an older one that wants to try something new would do well to begin with the Tungsten BB/T shot loads and a choke combination of .050” - .060” from their own bore size. This compares to the newest cutting edge magnum type rifle cartridge/bullet combo in the rifle hunting world. The downside? They are expensive!

For an inexpensive alternative I look back at the old standard No. Four Buck. Much less expensive than the new fangled hi-tech loads and effective enough for most shotgunning of called predators. IMHO, the No. Four Buck coupled with a good choke of the same .050" - .060" constriction combo is sort of like the .30-06 of the rifle hunting world, a proven standard by which all others will be judged by.
 
I don't like posting in these shotgun threads. I've gone the rounds with gc because I disagree with him (all conversations have been very civil). When I was trying to find "the load" a few years ago I used just about everything on the market. My best results were with #4 buck lead. When I posted my results on here I was told that I was wrong, so I contacted a company that tests ammo for the fbi to get their expert opinion. Their tests confirmed my experience that the lead pellets are more lethal than any other shot material on the market for a predator hunters application.
 
Nightcaller I remember our discussion because of the interesting topic matter and also because we were able to "agree to disagree" in such an easy manner. You of course are entitled to your opinions. I don’t recall you sharing information gained from a scientific testing facility that was relevant to the discussion of shot shell pellet material terminal wound ballistics and specifically to shotgunning predators.
 
Never mind.Found it at Midway.To steep for me.I think I'll try some of the larger buckshot loads.Fewer pellets but if they find the mark should work as well maybe better.So far with both BB and 4 buck I have had to shoot coyotes twice anyway.
 
Bernie,
I'm not sure why you have to shoot twice so much? The common reasons for that might be:

*thin pattern...

*point of aim/impact issue...

*shooting too far...

*bad angles...

In any case larger shot isn't going to help in those situations. The need for a follow-up does happen occasionally with a shotgun but it shouldn't be necessary with nearly every animal shot. I assure you that either tungsten BB/T shot or good No. Four Buck can break a coyote down and kill it quickly and humanely if those conditions above aren't an issue.
 
I think it's poor penetration.Lymans reloading manual puts a 4 buck 2% antimony lead pellet at 40yds down to 45 ft.lbs.They don't give energy for BB's but I'd estimate only around 14 ft,lbs at the same distance.
 
I'm shooting 54 pellets of #4 buck in my 26" barreled Remington SP10 with an improved modified comp n choke. While a little heavy on recoil, it seldom requires two shots if I can put it on them inside 70yds or so. My theory is shotguns rely the shock from multiple shot hits rather than penetration for clean kills. The same penetration is not required for the multiple pellets as it is with a single projectile. Squirrels are a good example, I've killed hundreds cleanly with a shotgun only to find the pellets are just below the hide and are removed while skinning. Just my thoughts and they are worth what you pay for them.
 
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Personally I feel that the shotgun kills best by placing multiple pellets on target in a concentrated area (tight pattern at point of aim) and those pellets shred vital tissue and organs by giving complete penetration through those organs and tissue. I used the word “shred” and that is exactly what happens when a dozen largish pellets tear through the lungs and/or heart of a coyote with multiple wound tracts destroying those vital organs so completely. That amount of tissue damage to vital organs such as the heart and lungs, liver, and nearby major arteries or the brain is very quickly fatal. Pellets that fail to penetrate through vital tissue/organs simply don't have the velocity and thus the kinetic energy to “shock” an animal into instant incapacitation. The “shock” factor we see when an animal is zapped by a concentrated shot pattern is from having numerous complete wound tracts destroying the vitals so completely at basically the same instant. Pellets that don’t hit vital areas and/or fail to penetrate are not going to be reliably effective.

Arrows kill differently by hemorrhaging massive blood loss with their cutting action. Low velocity hard cast handgun or muzzleloader bullets do their thing differently with straight line deep penetration through vital organs. High velocity centerfire rifles and lightly constructed bullets do have the kinetic energy advantage on something as small as a coyote and the terminal bullet action to destroy a large amount of vital tissue given their velocities. Shotguns have their own unique advantages within their effective range parameters.
 
Bernie,
Within the ranges I can hold a decent pattern (40 - 50 yards) I have not experienced inadequate penetration from No. Four Buck with good angles on a coyote. Going away coyotes over 35 - 40 yards is when I normally might need a follow-up shot or two. I mostly used the 41 pellet copper plated and buffered Federal 3” 12 gauge load for many years. I know the tungsten BB loads break bone better and penetrate better than that old favorite magnum lead Four Buck load. Derbyacresbob did some penetration testing in that big sticky shotgun thread and it is extremely interesting how well that tungsten shot will penetrate. My experience with around 70 various predators killed with that tungsten load of BB’s is that penetration isn’t a problem with reasonable distances and good patterns at point of aim. Along the same lines I can kill turkey gobblers with tungsten #6’s at ranges I didn’t like to try even with lead #5’s.
 
Originally Posted By: GCNightcaller I remember our discussion because of the interesting topic matter and also because we were able to "agree to disagree" in such an easy manner. You of course are entitled to your opinions. I don’t recall you sharing information gained from a scientific testing facility that was relevant to the discussion of shot shell pellet material terminal wound ballistics and specifically to shotgunning predators.

here's the link to the discussion.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...992#Post1539992

it was a company that you had found. i just followed up and contacted them to ask specific questions. they were very helpful and while they don't test specifically for predator sized animals their opinion went along with mine so of course i thought the guy was a genious!

this is the thread were a guy called me out and said i was wrong because he shoots coyotes at 55 yds and geese at 110yds with his HD loads. while GC and i will never agree i can appreciate that GC has a very good understanding of the "whys" behind his arguement and doesn't use 110yd shots to prove his point.

just did a check on that guy that made the stupid comment and he only made one more post on this site after that one; it's been two years since.
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On a single pellet basis of a target that is always the same thickness his argument has some merit. Yes it is true that you will loose some energy if a pellet passes all the way through an animal. I must admit, even my perfect predator calling seldom yields a coyote at exactly 35 yards broadside.....standing still. I will continue to opt for a pellet that will yield the most lethality under field conditions and that means the deepest penetration I can achieve with a viable pattern.
John
 
Originally Posted By: pcammoOn a single pellet basis of a target that is always the same thickness his argument has some merit. Yes it is true that you will loose some energy if a pellet passes all the way through an animal. I must admit, even my perfect predator calling seldom yields a coyote at exactly 35 yards broadside.....standing still. I will continue to opt for a pellet that will yield the most lethality under field conditions and that means the deepest penetration I can achieve with a viable pattern.
John

Oh no, here we go again. So Are you saying penetration is THE most important thing? Because the deeper the penetration the more leathal the projectile, right?

I feel like this conversation is akin to heavy barrels being more accurate than lighter barrels.
 
Originally Posted By: Bernie P.I started looking through the patterning thread to see what most preferred.With 38 pages I started going blind and batty for my efforts.How about we try to keep it simple and consolidate it down some by just listing just the gun,choke and load.For me-
Mberg 835
Mberg Ulti choke
Federal 3" buffered BB.

If New York coyotes are as big as they say they are I may want to use lead Number 4 Buck instead of the Federal copper coated lead BBs.

http://www.basspro.com/Remington-HD-Ultimate-Home-Defense-Shotshells-12-Gauge/product/10215215/44043

These 2-3/4" Tungsten HD BB loads have killed 14 coyotes for us this past season with no coyotes getting away. These Home Defense loads are $1.00 per shell, the 3" Waterfowl loads that have only 1/4 oz more shot in them were $2.60 to $3.50 per shell.

Comparing a single lead pellet to another single tungsten pellet my not show all the facts on shotgun loads. When I did the pattern and penetration tests between The Federal Premium copper coated lead BBs and the Rem HD Tungsten BBs the Tungsten BBs put way more pellets on the target and they penetrated much deeper.

The Federal lead 1-7/8 oz BB loads had 98 pellets in each shell and the Rem Hd Tungsten 1-1/2 oz BB load had 73 pellets in each shell.

The Federal lead BB load with 25 more pellets in it put 15 pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards. The Rem HD BB load that had less pellets in it put 32 pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards. I like the idea of having twice as many of the deeper penetrating pellets hitting the target.
 
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