Annealing

ryutzy

ryutzy

New member
I've recently started annealing my brass. I've read numerous articles and different ways of annealing. One article on Accurateshooter.com that I read really warned against over annealing. I'd love to see some pics of your annealed brass. How dark is the color after you are done? The brass that I've annealed turned a dark gold color with some bluish colors appearing. I felt according to the articles I've read that this is about right. I compared it to my Lapua brass which comes annealed and the Lapua has a much darker color down through the shoulder. If l keep my necks in the torch long enough to get that dark color, I think I would be over annealing the brass according to the article in accurateshooter. I keep my brass in the end of the blue flame of the torch for 8-9 seconds then dip in water to cool. I put the brass in a drill chuck to turn the brass in the flame. I know some use a dark room to see a faint red glow of the brass appear and then dip in water. I've also heard that if you see slight red then you have over annealed the necks and they may be too soft for best accuracy. So what are your experiences???? I'd like to see some pics.
 
I use the same basic process as you do, except I use a darker room. I heat to a nice glow [ 6-8 sec], but then I dunk mine in a mild C.L.R [calcium lime & rust] solution. Cools the brass, cleans at the same time. I would post a pic, but the cleaner all but clears the case color away. It is left with a light "rose" color at the shoulder, neck.

The time on the torch depends on the heat of the flame, and how close into the flame you are. I just go by a nice low "glow" in the dark.
 
Reddog- I was just doing a count for the 8-9 seconds, but it was probably less. My brass is not as discolored as what im seeing in the thread you posted, and I doubt my brass would have turned red in a dark room. I'm using Norma 7X57 brass that I necked down for my 6MM AI.

What do you think of using Tempilaq? The 650 degree version?
 
Your brass may not have any color change and be annealed properly. The composition of brass varies and color change is a bad indicator. The Blak red glow in a dark room is a proper anneal. Also Templiq 750* indicator is a good to have when you start out.

My brass (223 reformed to 20VT) does take a proper 7 secs so yours may or may not.

No need for a water dunk as the quench does nothing to brass. You can however burn the Zinc out of the case and ruin it, cherry red.

Don't be afraid to ruin a few case to find out the "black red" color. Also time in the flame is determined by the type of gas you're using. I use regular propane but I have also used MAPP gas and cut the time in half.

Keep the neck in the flame not the body. Adam
 
I use a dark room and heat the neck until it just starts to glow. I used a drill to hold the case and a butane torch. I then put them in water cause all I had was a plastic coffee can! I tumbled afterwards and will be reloading these soon.
 
Ive just started Annealing 22-250 brass to form as AI.
I use the Fred Baker "candle method", where you simply hold the case in your bear fingers over a candle flame. When it gets to hot to hold drop it on a wet/cool rag and its done.

Mine really dont change color, certainly no blue coloration. I can really tell a differnece though just running them through my sizing dies.
 
Originally Posted By: mtnkid85Ive just started Annealing 22-250 brass to form as AI.
I use the Fred Baker "candle method", where you simply hold the case in your bear fingers over a candle flame. When it gets to hot to hold drop it on a wet/cool rag and its done.

Mine really dont change color, certainly no blue coloration. I can really tell a differnece though just running them through my sizing dies.

I bet they aren't annealed. Annealing takes place around 350* but at an hours time. That's why the redish black glow is needed, the time decreses exponentially as the temp increases. Annealing at 1700* just takes seconds. A candle burns at about 1000* where a propane torch burns at 70% hotter. Adam
 
Originally Posted By: mtnkid85Ive just started Annealing 22-250 brass to form as AI.
I use the Fred Baker "candle method", where you simply hold the case in your bear fingers over a candle flame. When it gets to hot to hold drop it on a wet/cool rag and its done.

Mine really don't change color, certainly no blue coloration. I can't really tell a difference though just running them through my sizing dies.

That is because you are not annealing them... you're just putting soot on the necks and shoulders
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I think Fred Baker is not someone that you should be taking advice from.
 
Originally Posted By: mtnkid85 I can really tell a differnece though just running them through my sizing dies.

Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: mtnkid85 I can't really tell a difference though just running them through my sizing dies.


He said can. You changed it to can't. John Baker is the guy laughing his azz off over the whole thing.
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Those Bakers must have the corner on annealing.
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I use the kitchen stove and an "Ove Glove" and one of those case chucks from Lee in my rechargable.
 
Ok so here's where I'm at now. I got 650 degree Tempilaq. The Tempilaq never really liquifies, just turns to a black crisp in 4 seconds. I put some on the inside of the neck and the outside as well and they both turn black and crisp the same time. I am using a propane torch and I'm a little surprised how fast the tempilaq gets burnt. I am now annealing for about 5 seconds then dunking brass in water. I'm hoping that my brass that I did earlier is still ok as I had it in the flame about 8 seconds.
 
The flame will turn green when the Zinc begins to burn. This is a no no, the thing to remember is the base can't even be annealed, even a little. If you're annealing cases over 1.6" you'll be safe with the 8 sec. unless you're using MAPP or Oxy/Ace. then you probably don't have a case.
For referance, and all manufactures are different, my 20VT cases take 5-7 secs. to anneal the neck and shoulders. This produces safe annealed cases for me using propane. If you used the MAPP gas you may have to hold them only 3-4 secs. Don't be afraid to ruin a few cases to find the Black Red color. Adam
 
Originally Posted By: ab_bentley

"The flame will turn green when the Zinc begins to burn."



That green is metallic ions in the flame and can be either zinc or copper - both will give a green color. The color does not mean that metal is being burned - only that is is being heated in a flame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test
 
Ok so I took a piece of brass and intentionally ruined it. And just for my own reference I decided to do it in a dark room. The brass began to get a dull red glow at the 10-12 second mark. This is when I stopped and decided to do the squeeze test I've read about. I let the brass cool then I took a needlenose pliers and wrapped a cloth around the brass neck and gave it a slow squeeze. The brass was soft and had no spring to it at all. Obviously ruined. I then took a new (virgin) case (not annealed) and did the same thing carefully watching the case mouth. As soon as I saw the mouth slightly deform I'd stop and you could see the brass slightly spring back. Interesting.....so in my case with my setup and brass....RED GLOW = BAD
 
Originally Posted By: ryutzyOk so I took a piece of brass and intentionally ruined it. And just for my own reference I decided to do it in a dark room. The brass began to get a dull red glow at the 10-12 second mark. This is when I stopped and decided to do the squeeze test I've read about. I let the brass cool then I took a needlenose pliers and wrapped a cloth around the brass neck and gave it a slow squeeze. The brass was soft and had no spring to it at all. Obviously ruined. I then took a new (virgin) case (not annealed) and did the same thing carefully watching the case mouth. As soon as I saw the mouth slightly deform I'd stop and you could see the brass slightly spring back. Interesting.....so in my case with my setup and brass....RED GLOW = BAD

Why do you say RED GLOW = BAD...

How much spring back do you need - only a few thousands is required for the neck - if you can see a few thou, tell me the name of your ophthalmologist.

Here are the temperatures of what "temperature" looks like - color wise.

Below that are the annealing temperature of brass.

You don't even start to anneal until just before you are seeing red.

---------------------------------------------

Color Approximate Temperature °F

Faint Red ------- 930
Blood Red ------ 1075
Dark Cherry ---- 1175
Medium Cherry - 1275
Cherry ---------- 1375
Bright Cherry --- 1450


Physical Properties
Density 0.308 lb/in³

Mechanical Properties
Hardness, Rockwell B 91
Hardness, HR30T 77
Tensile Strength, Ultimate 94300 psi
Elongation at Break 3.00 % In 50 mm
Modulus of Elasticity 16000 ksi
Poissons Ratio 0.375
Fatigue Strength 23200 psi
Machinability 30 % UNS C36000 (free-cutting brass) = 100%
Shear Modulus 5800 ksi
Shear Strength 47900 psi

Thermal Properties
CTE, linear 19.9 µm/m-°C
@Temperature 20.0 - 300 °C 11.1 µin/in-°F
@Temperature 68.0 - 572 °F
Specific Heat Capacity 0.0896 BTU/lb-°F
Thermal Conductivity 120 W/m-K
@Temperature 20.0 °C 833 BTU-in/hr-ft²-°F
@Temperature 68.0 °F
Melting Point 1680 - 1750 °F
Solidus 1680 °F
Liquidus 1750 °F

Processing Properties
Annealing Temperature 797 - 1380 °F
Hot-Working Temperature 1340 - 1560 °F

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