What the heck is a "Wylde" chamber??
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Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
It is a chamber designed by Bill Wylde just for 1000 yard compeition with fast twist barrels and heavy bullets.
Jack
Jack
ibschmidty
New member
+1^^^^^^^ RRA says that to let you know you can shoot either round in there. I never did shoot the 5.56 though.
willy1947
Active member
The Ogive or leade of a .223rem chamber is around .085 in length.
The Ogive or leade of a 5.56mm chamber is around .162 in length.
The Ogive or leade of a Wylde chamber is around .120 in length.
The Ogive or leade is the distance from the end of your case and the start of your rifling in your chamber.
This type of chambering help an AR type rifle to shoot both 223 and 5.56mm. Ruger started this with the mini-14.
That is why you never shoot 5.56mm rounds in a 223rem rifle.
5.56mm use harden primes named #41 So you do not get a slamfire.
READ:
The Difference Between 223 Rem and 5.56 Military Cartridges
There is a general misperception by the shooting public that the 223 Rem and 5.56 Military cartridges are identical – just different designations for commercial and military – and can routinely be interchanged. The fact however is that, although somewhat similar, they are not the same.
The cartridge casings of each have basically the same length and exterior dimensions.
Mil Spec 5.56 ammo typically has higher velocity and chamber pressure than the 223 Rem.
The 5.56 cartridge case may have a thicker sidewall and a thicker head - to better withstand the stresses generated by the higher chamber pressures. This, however, reduces the powder capacity of the case - which is of concern to the reloader.
The 5.56mm and 223 Rem. chambers are similar but not identical. The difference is in the “Leade”. Leade is defined as a portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. This portion of the chamber is more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a 223 Rem. chamber is usually .085”. In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162”, or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem. chamber.
You can fire 223 Rem. cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity – compared to firing the 223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.
Problems may occur when firing the higher pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a 223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads, and gun functioning issues.
The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a 223 Rem. chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination and is listed in the “Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations” Section of the SAAMI Technical Correspondent’s Handbook. It clearly states; “In firearms chambered for 223 Rem – do not use 5.56 Military cartridges.” Federal Cartridge is a member of SAAMI and supports this position.
Federal’s XM193 packaging currently has a warning that states “For use in standard 5.56 Chambers. Do not use in non-standard 5.56 chambers.” This warning is also listed on the XM193 Product Specification Sheet. Winchester also has a similar warning on their USA brand 5.56 ammunition packaging: “Use only in firearms in good condition designed and chambered by firearm manufacturer specifically for this 5.56 ammunition and so marked on the firearm.”
It is our understanding that commercially available AR15’s and M16’s – although some are stamped 5.56 Rem on the receiver – are manufactured with .223 chambers. Our advice however should be that it is the customer’s responsibility to know what their firearm is chambered for and choose their ammo accordingly.
The Ogive or leade of a 5.56mm chamber is around .162 in length.
The Ogive or leade of a Wylde chamber is around .120 in length.
The Ogive or leade is the distance from the end of your case and the start of your rifling in your chamber.
This type of chambering help an AR type rifle to shoot both 223 and 5.56mm. Ruger started this with the mini-14.
That is why you never shoot 5.56mm rounds in a 223rem rifle.
5.56mm use harden primes named #41 So you do not get a slamfire.
READ:
The Difference Between 223 Rem and 5.56 Military Cartridges
There is a general misperception by the shooting public that the 223 Rem and 5.56 Military cartridges are identical – just different designations for commercial and military – and can routinely be interchanged. The fact however is that, although somewhat similar, they are not the same.
The cartridge casings of each have basically the same length and exterior dimensions.
Mil Spec 5.56 ammo typically has higher velocity and chamber pressure than the 223 Rem.
The 5.56 cartridge case may have a thicker sidewall and a thicker head - to better withstand the stresses generated by the higher chamber pressures. This, however, reduces the powder capacity of the case - which is of concern to the reloader.
The 5.56mm and 223 Rem. chambers are similar but not identical. The difference is in the “Leade”. Leade is defined as a portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. This portion of the chamber is more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a 223 Rem. chamber is usually .085”. In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162”, or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem. chamber.
You can fire 223 Rem. cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity – compared to firing the 223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.
Problems may occur when firing the higher pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a 223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads, and gun functioning issues.
The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a 223 Rem. chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination and is listed in the “Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations” Section of the SAAMI Technical Correspondent’s Handbook. It clearly states; “In firearms chambered for 223 Rem – do not use 5.56 Military cartridges.” Federal Cartridge is a member of SAAMI and supports this position.
Federal’s XM193 packaging currently has a warning that states “For use in standard 5.56 Chambers. Do not use in non-standard 5.56 chambers.” This warning is also listed on the XM193 Product Specification Sheet. Winchester also has a similar warning on their USA brand 5.56 ammunition packaging: “Use only in firearms in good condition designed and chambered by firearm manufacturer specifically for this 5.56 ammunition and so marked on the firearm.”
It is our understanding that commercially available AR15’s and M16’s – although some are stamped 5.56 Rem on the receiver – are manufactured with .223 chambers. Our advice however should be that it is the customer’s responsibility to know what their firearm is chambered for and choose their ammo accordingly.
nastynatesfish
Active member
Ive shot the ss109 ammo in my stevens and not noticed any difference in fired cases.
You'll probably get away with it....most of the time....they give warnings for a reason.Originally Posted By: getfoxyJust a question.. Is there by REAL PROOF that shooting 5.56 in a standard .223 rem chamber causing problems?
You'll probably get away with it....most of the time....they give warnings for a reason.
You'll probably get away with it....most of the time....they give warnings for a reason.
Rustydust
Active member
Originally Posted By: getfoxyJust a question.. Is there by REAL PROOF that shooting 5.56 in a standard .223 rem chamber causing problems?
The simple answer is Gary, that there is not any.
Several months ago someone had posted something about it being safe to shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but not vice versa. I wrote that the miniscule differences in pressure would amount to nothing at all to be concerned about and that I and many of my friends had indeed shot thousands of rounds of GI ball in our various .223 rifles with no problems of any kind. It seems that there were a couple of folks that took issue with that and said that likely it was a dangerous practice. I then asked for some sort of proof of that. Any form of proof at all of somthing such as a damaged gun or worse yet bodily injury. You know what? No replies. Huh.
I wish that I knew of someone that had a few thousand rounds of 5.56 that they wanted to sell cheap because they were afraid to shoot it in their gun. I would scarf it up in a heartbeat.
The simple answer is Gary, that there is not any.
Several months ago someone had posted something about it being safe to shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but not vice versa. I wrote that the miniscule differences in pressure would amount to nothing at all to be concerned about and that I and many of my friends had indeed shot thousands of rounds of GI ball in our various .223 rifles with no problems of any kind. It seems that there were a couple of folks that took issue with that and said that likely it was a dangerous practice. I then asked for some sort of proof of that. Any form of proof at all of somthing such as a damaged gun or worse yet bodily injury. You know what? No replies. Huh.
I wish that I knew of someone that had a few thousand rounds of 5.56 that they wanted to sell cheap because they were afraid to shoot it in their gun. I would scarf it up in a heartbeat.
Orneryolfart357
New member
I too have shot 5.56 in My Tikka with no issues. I didnt save the brass however just prefer to keep My reloads all .223.
Excerpt from Wikipedia:
According to the official Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) guidelines the .223 Remington case can handle up to 430 megapascals (62,366 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers. This is equal to the NATO maximum service pressure guideline for the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the .223 Remington is set at 379.212 megapascals (55,000 psi), piezo pressure.[5]
So, 223 SAAMI is 55K psi, while 5.56 is 62K+ psi - apparently internationally, they set 223's up for NATO rounds. I'd rather not buy your guns fired with 5.56 when marked 223 - more pressure for more rounds = more wear/stress on parts - JMHO. If ya wanna do that, get a 5.56 gun. PO Ackley used to fired something like 338 bullets down a 308 cal. barrel and it didn't blow up - must be safe.
According to the official Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) guidelines the .223 Remington case can handle up to 430 megapascals (62,366 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers. This is equal to the NATO maximum service pressure guideline for the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the .223 Remington is set at 379.212 megapascals (55,000 psi), piezo pressure.[5]
So, 223 SAAMI is 55K psi, while 5.56 is 62K+ psi - apparently internationally, they set 223's up for NATO rounds. I'd rather not buy your guns fired with 5.56 when marked 223 - more pressure for more rounds = more wear/stress on parts - JMHO. If ya wanna do that, get a 5.56 gun. PO Ackley used to fired something like 338 bullets down a 308 cal. barrel and it didn't blow up - must be safe.
Rustydust
Active member
I think that the whole issue here is if there is any harm to do the gun that would be done and the answer is simply "no". When you think that millions and millions of rounds of 5.56 ammo that have been fired in .223 rifles over the last four somthing decades without a single case of bodily injury or damage to the firearm I would have to say that it is pretty much a non-issue. And if there ever was a .223 that had any sort of accelerated wear with any sort of .223 rifle from using it then I for one have never heard of it.
Foxy,
I have no incident to offer....Thankfully.....My point is simple "I" would not "condone" shooting any ammo in a firearm that was not "chambered for" and "marked for" that ammo. IMO, The .223/5.56 swapping is not quite the same as fire forming, case forming, and "wildcatting" done by experienced reloaders. I would hate to see someone give their kid a handful 5.56 to shoot in their .223 (because they read on the internet that their had never been an incident) and they "have" an incident. Or said kid now thinking that the #'s and case stamps really dont't mean anything "It'll be OK" we swapped 223 and 5.56.
I thought WILLY1947 did a real good job laying it all out.
I cringe when people condone practices that are contrary to SAAMI and the Manufacture. It's pretty obvious their engineers and attorneys don't need an "Incident" in order to advise against it. I agree it will work and you probably won't have an Incident I just could not tell anybody to go ahead and do it because I know what SAAMI and the manufactures say and I can' unknow that.
But kinda like you tag line says "common sense ain't so common"
Sotex
I have no incident to offer....Thankfully.....My point is simple "I" would not "condone" shooting any ammo in a firearm that was not "chambered for" and "marked for" that ammo. IMO, The .223/5.56 swapping is not quite the same as fire forming, case forming, and "wildcatting" done by experienced reloaders. I would hate to see someone give their kid a handful 5.56 to shoot in their .223 (because they read on the internet that their had never been an incident) and they "have" an incident. Or said kid now thinking that the #'s and case stamps really dont't mean anything "It'll be OK" we swapped 223 and 5.56.
I thought WILLY1947 did a real good job laying it all out.
I cringe when people condone practices that are contrary to SAAMI and the Manufacture. It's pretty obvious their engineers and attorneys don't need an "Incident" in order to advise against it. I agree it will work and you probably won't have an Incident I just could not tell anybody to go ahead and do it because I know what SAAMI and the manufactures say and I can' unknow that.
But kinda like you tag line says "common sense ain't so common"
Sotex
Last edited:
willy1947
Active member
More info:
.223 Remington versus 5.56 mm NATO
These 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges are identical in appearance to .223 Remington. They are, however, not completely interchangeable.
While the 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are very similar, they are not identical.
While there is a myth that 5.56 NATO cases are thicker and hence have less capacity than commercial .223 cases, this has been shown to be false. Each brand of case and each manufacturing lot has a slightly different case capacity; 5.56 NATO and .223 commercial cases tend to have nearly identical case capacity when measured using the water test.[6] The NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. NATO EPVAT test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the location used by the United States civil standards organization SAAMI. The piezoelectric sensors or transducers NATO and SAAMI use to conduct the actual pressure measurements also differ. This difference in measurement method accounts for upwards of 137.9 megapascals (20,000 psi) difference in pressure measurements. This means the NATO EPVAT maximum service pressure of 430 megapascals (62,000 psi) for 5.56mm NATO, is reduced by SAAMI to 379.21 megapascals (55,000 psi) for .223 Remington.[7] In contrast to SAAMI, the other main civil standards organization C.I.P. defines the maximum service and proof test pressures of the .223 Remington cartridge equal to the 5.56mm NATO.
The 5.56mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Bill Wylde)[8] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56mm NATO chamber specification.
Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[9] Using 5.56mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[10][11] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm NATO ammunition.[12]
Common sense applies greatly here. A 5.56 can,will,is safely fired in a 223 chamber. End of story.
Now any and all loads have to be monitored for pressure. I've seen factory rounds with stiff bolts, flat primers, etc. I don't see where anyone has any actual proof of a 5.56 causing a failure. None, go ahead and search. I want on case of it and this will be done. I have, however shot many, many 5.56 in a 223. No issues what so ever. I have seen plenty of people admiting to the same both here and elsewhere. I can copy and paste Wikipedia and other sites to make me look smart, but I think first hand experiance trumps all the Internet hogwash. But hey, shoot what you want.
Now any and all loads have to be monitored for pressure. I've seen factory rounds with stiff bolts, flat primers, etc. I don't see where anyone has any actual proof of a 5.56 causing a failure. None, go ahead and search. I want on case of it and this will be done. I have, however shot many, many 5.56 in a 223. No issues what so ever. I have seen plenty of people admiting to the same both here and elsewhere. I can copy and paste Wikipedia and other sites to make me look smart, but I think first hand experiance trumps all the Internet hogwash. But hey, shoot what you want.
nastynatesfish
Active member
this weekend im gonna take 5 each ss109 and 5 factory hornady varmint rounds and shoot them through my stevens 223. ill get pics of the loaded rounds and pics of the spent cases. ive done it before and ill do it now safely. its agreed that lc brass has less case capacity and a heavier case. and 556 has a longer through in the barrel.
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