Have you read this?

Salem- I do not fear the law. I have no reason to. I trap, hunt & fish just like probably everybody here, my licenses & tags are always in order, and I adhere to the regulations of our proclamations. Its hard for me to imagine that you really believe that if everyone does not agree with you they are all or any of the things you have called us.

Yuppie- You're not listening, so, because it fits so well here, I'll share with you what I read somewhere- "If one word does not succeed, ten thousand are of no avail". I think that pretty much says it for both sides here.

I'm not going to change what I believe, neither are you guys- so be it.
 
This dosen't have a damn thing to do with Ruby Ridge or Waco.It has to do with a couple of fish and game Officers investigating a tip about poaching that had been an ongoing way of life with the poacher Claude Dallas.And in the investigation process Claude decided that rather than have his camp searched he would just kill the officers . shooting them in the head to finish them off proved in fact that he is just another cold blooded murderer. I guess when you escape and cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of $ tracking him down that is good behavour.
 
I remember this event well, I was in the 9th grade in 1982 and was deeply involved in trapping so the entire issue piqued my interest. I can't believe he's out!! I would think that the ferociousness of his crimes would have put him away for good. No offense to anyone and I'm all for individual rights and the like.. but this guy should have been put away for life in my opinion.
 
Ladyredfox

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the normal reaction of law enforcement is supposed to be a drawn gun & arrest. But, if someone drew a gun & was aiming it at me, I'd have to ***ume they were going to shoot me.
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I am curious to know why you would assume that officers with drawn guns were going to shoot you, especially if you were not threating them.

Most officers have never fired their weapons, while many have drawn them. It is to give them the edge and deter violence not incite it.

Do you expect law enforcement officers to enter into these situations with their guns holstered? That is as much a defensive move as it is an offensive one.

If you were pulled over on the highway and the officer approached the vehicle with his gun drawn would you then be justified in killing him? Perhaps your vehicle fit the description of one involved in some type of crime. Perhaps you could sit there until the error was realized, before you come out with guns blazing.

You must have a different experience or opinion of law enforcement than I do.
 
I do not believe that the people in Idaho who sat on the jury durring Dallas's trial were a bunch of Government hatting scumbags.I do beleive the knew more of the character and history of the victims as well as Dallas.Dallas was the benifactor of the dislike of the game wardens I am sure.Some law enforcement personel inforce the law in respectable fashion. Some inflict as much degradding personel attacks as they can get away with.
If that officer degrades enough people without cause.????
As for Pit Bull: What ever David Koresh did,it still did not warrant the way, and the means in which the Government agency's punished the innocent.The killing of those innocent victims still goes unpunished.
Dallas did stand trial, and did do his time.That cannot be said in the case of Ruby Ridge or Waco .
 
The best I remember, the "innocent" victims in Waco had 50 days to come out and surrender themselves to law enforcement. Then they would have been given due process.
 
When I get stopped out in the field while hunting, trapping, or doing whatever I expect to have any officer who comes to check me out to have a gun drawn. I can usually ease the nerves of the officer by putting my gun down and keeping my hands in plain sight while I step away from the weapon. This is not rural area, but we still have people who shoot deer at night and engage in other illegal activities too. So it isn’t unusual for an officer to expect to encounter someone doing something they should not be doing around here. I am not offended or worried because a law enforcement officer walks up and has his/her gun drawn, and do not feel I am about to be shot either. I will admit though, things are a lot different now than in 1981. Today wildlife officers have to worry not only if you are poaching, but also if you are making Meth, or some other drug. The fact still remains that Pogue and Elms walked into a situation where all three men had access to a gun. What actually happened that day will probably never be known, but Dallas formed my opinion for me by the way he handled the situation. I can’t remember if Dallas had previous poaching violations, but apparently someone reported him. I doubt Pogue and Elms had any form of back up within miles of them—they were essentially on their own, and just because Dallas got charged with a lesser criminal act does not mean he killed them in self defense. One thing you will find with the legal system is that the truth doesn’t always come out in court. The transcripts of the trial may help, or they may not. The thing is, we are missing two other witnesses who are dead, and could not testify to their side of the story.

I can’t remember where this happened, but I will bring this story up. A police officer stopped a man in an urban neighborhood on a minor traffic violation. Unknown to the officer the person in the car had just committed a home invasion a few minutes earlier. The officer intending to issue a warning walked up to the vehicle to talk to the man, and asked him to step out of his vehicle. Thinking he was about to be arrested for the invasion the man attacked the officer. Both ended up throwing punches and wrestling before the officer handcuffed the man. None of this was taped because the car the officer was driving was not equipped with a recording devise. An internal investigation was done with nearly a dozen witnesses came forward stating that the officer had begun beating the man, and the suspect was only defending himself from the abuse. Prosecutors charged the officer, and began working to build a case against the officer for the trial. Unknown to the parties involved there was videotape evidence in the case. A woman in a house across the street was messing with her new video recorder, and focused on the traffic stop just a few seconds before the man attacked the officer. The tape ended up exonerating the officer of charges, and the opposite parties involved were rightfully charged. Without that woman coming forward with that tape the officer would have been put through a stressful trial, and possibly convicted.

The reason I bring this up is to remind us not judge by just hearing one side of the story, but to look at all the possibilities. Maybe Pogue was a hardhead, but does it justify what Dallas did? I don’t know what happened, and I doubt the court transcripts will settle any of this because we still won’t hear Pogue’s and Elms’ side of this story. All I know is two wildlife officers went to see Dallas, and then were killed by Dallas at his camp. I am going into law enforcement myself, and am grateful for the technology we now have. God forbid I get killed, but if it does happen I hope that the event is recorded on my dash cam, or that I at least have some honest witnesses to testify as to what really happened to me. I know in court that a defense attorney may do whatever is possible to make me look bad to get their client found not guilty. It’s just one possibility you have to consider when going into this line of work. I will treat everyone with respect, but I know that not everyone will treat me the same. You never know what day you wake up may be your last.

ZP
 
Yellowhammer
To satisfy your curiosity, the only answer I have is that I've always believed that you don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it.
Yes, I agree that there are very different situations then I've been exposed to, where I understand why an officer would unholster a weapon. But, I have never had law enforcement approach me with a gun drawn, and to be very honest, yes, it would make me wonder what the crap was going on.
I've had fish & game wardens approach me 2 times checking licenses and tags, neither drew his gun. Not a big deal, I expect them to check, its their job. But one of those officers did display what I seen as a negative attitude even before the approach- he hid behind a tree until I said, "hello", to let him know I knew he was there. Who's the freakiest, someone going about checking their traps, as the law requires, or the guy hiding behind the tree in the middle of nowhere? I felt he had attitude in his voice from the time he asked to see my license & look at my cats, maybe I misread him, maybe he was showing authority, but if so, I'd already seen the authority in his uniform & his badge. I was proud of those cats, they were my first two, and they were tagged as fast as I could get tags on. I'm glad he looked at them, I'm proud to be a trapper, but still don't understand the attitude. The game warden checking my fishing license was just checking, no attitude, just doing his job. Another time, a game warden had been checking my traps. I had seen his tracks all around my sets. I called around to see who the new warden was, found him & asked him if he'd been checking traps in that area. He said, "No, he'd never been up there." So I told him it must not have been his badge I found by my set then. Then his story changed. He ended up being a real nice guy. He said he had pulled traps to check #s and spacers & had reset one that had been set off. Nice guy, but why did he lie in the first place?
Yes, I must have a different experience or opinion of law enforcement then you do. I repect the law, so I expect law enforcement to be deserving of respect, and a lot of them are, some are not.
No, if I was pulled over for a traffic violation I wouldn't come out with guns blazing, that's a pretty bizarre question. But again, in my many years of driving, I have never been approached with a gun drawn when I was pulled over.
Call me crazy- I just am not comfortable with anyone pointing a gun at me.
 
I have never had law enforcement approach me with a gun drawn,
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That is because you have't been doing anything to require that, and were not reported to have commited a crime. If you had been, you may have been approached differently.


No, if I was pulled over for a traffic violation I wouldn't come out with guns blazing, that's a pretty bizarre question
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I did not say "if you were pulled over for a traffic violation". I said if you were pulled over for no reason of your doing (I said your vehicle fit the description of one involved in a crime) and officers had guns drawn.
 
Okay, I can't argue that.

If you don't mind me asking, are you retired? Or are you still a working "Wildlife Biologist"? Maybe this isn't the place for that question. I just envy your occupation.
 
I see your rationale Yellowhammer.Lets convict and punish them before we try them. And in the proccess lets punish the children for the apparent distrust there parents had for the ATF.
We show great restraint when hostages are involved,why not when the children are those hostages? As Janet Reno stated in her testomony,"it was costing to much money to stay there any longer".Sounds like something Stalin would have said!
Remember no matter how you twist it, children died,many from gas poisoning,not the fire.
 
Mo I was in Waco for the last 10 days of the standoff dont believe everything you read or hear. things could have been different if you would have seen it first hand. I was also at the Republic of Texas Stand off in Fort Davis and the Media made this one out to be very Wrong. not saying who was right or who was wrong just seen my share of Media Bias and twist to be real cautious. being in law enforcement on a national response level I feel that the Officers had every right with this guys past history to be real cautious.
 
I don't believe everything thats reported on the news.My thoughts are based on the Senate hearings.( C-Span)
Those childrens lives were endangered by the acts of the ATF and the FBI.
They assaulted the compond,put many innocent lives in danger.I think it's a good example of how not to serve a warant.
 
Originally posted by Yellowhammer:
[qb] The best I remember, the "innocent" victims in Waco had 50 days to come out and surrender themselves to law enforcement. Then they would have been given due process. [/qb]
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I'm just thinking that while the innocent were victims, if they were brainwashed and belived this guy holding them was god like, then to them it wouldn't matter if they had 1000 days.
 
That's kinda my point. What should they have done? Just let them stay in there? Then everytime someone is served a warrant, all they have to do is lock themselves inside so the cops will go away.

It does not seem to me the blame is being laid where it should. The adults who broke the law are ultimately responsible.
 
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