should you use a coon for training???

Where do you guys get the misconceptions that you need to train a dog to defend itself? The point that is trying to be made s simple, and it makes no difference weather a guy hunts with decoy dogs or not, a general understanding of dogs will tell you that if a dog is doing its job, let it do its job.

If you find yourself "teaching your dog to defend himself" well then o would say you don't have much of a dog there.
 
I like to shoot the coyotes before they cause bodily harm. The dog bringing the coyote to me is the part that I'm in for not the dogs fighting. Heck if I wanted my freaking dogs fighting all the time, I would take my dogs to the local meatheads with a yard full of in untrained pitbulls on their chains. That ain't what I'm about. I ain't a dog fighting fan.

I want my dogs to succeed, and give them as much confidence as possible. That's why I used the coyote hide to let him chew on. I don't have a ton of coons around every corner like some of you guys, just every once in awhile. I guess I want him to get gamey, and he knows when I call him off that it's over and time to move on to the next game.
I'm a dog hobbiest, I hunt them as much as I can. Not for a living.
If you hunt coons, cool. I'm sure I could learn alot by hunting with you. Heck I'm sure that I couldn't hold a candle to any of you guys, nor could my dogs.
I'm just trying to have fun and spend time with my dogs and my kids.

Good luck guys and keep on hunting.
 
Likewise, GZ. This is all about fun for me & the pup...

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackeyWhere do you guys get the misconceptions that you need to train a dog to defend itself? The point that is trying to be made s simple, and it makes no difference weather a guy hunts with decoy dogs or not, a general understanding of dogs will tell you that if a dog is doing its job, let it do its job.

If you find yourself "teaching your dog to defend himself" well then o would say you don't have much of a dog there.


Jesse, I don't have ANY misconceptions as to training 'defense'. You are reading more into that than is really there. It has already been established in this thread that ANY dog worth it's hide already possesses the innate ability & desire to defend itself.
I was simply making apparent the difference in BEHAVIOR, one to the other. When training a dog, a handler's goal is to reinforce desired behaviors and admonish undesirable ones. Even smart dogs are at best DUMB, and need consistent & repeated reinforcement & praise to lock in a desirable behavior. If a handler deviates somehow, it is only confusing the dog, therefore making it's training more difficult. Put a dog with 1/2 a brain cell, ample prey drive and the desire to please in a position to succeed and 99x out of 100, that hunting dog is gonna make you smile. But it's OUR job as their handler/trainer to effectively CREATE that scenario and PRAISE that behavior accordingly.

To recommend that a dog which has already seen 15 coyote on stand, needs a few coon to 'teach' it, isn't going to further that dog any in it's decoy training. At best, it won't help one bit and more likely, at worst, it's just gonna confuse the dog as to what you expect from it. These cur dogs are very sensitive to pleasing you, so IMHO, not good to screw with their little brains like that. They learn quick enough, so why make it harder?
Training a multipurpoe hunting dog is exponentially harder, and requires much more specific parameters for locking in desired behaviors. This is where having a dog with 'brains' (loosely used) is essential! But you still need to establish what you want the dog to do & be consistent enough for the dog to figure out what it's job is at the moment...

That said, the fact remains that having your pup fight a coon makes about as much sense to me for training a decoy dog as would training your foxhound to perform a water retrieve
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The one desired BEHAVIOR of the dog has nothing to do with the other...

Using 'offgame' to fire up a young pup is one thing. But that interaction dang sure ain't gonna learn that pup how to FOOL A COYOTE BACK TO YOU ON A CALLING STAND. This has been my whole stance all along and I'm stickin' to it. That part requires BRAINS (learned behavior), not brawn (basic prey drive)...

Originally Posted By: CatdawgThere are reasons to use coons for training a decoy dog, like to fire up the game drive in a pup and maybe to teach a pup what end has teeth and means business... other than that, the dog will learn very little that will help it with coyotes.


So again to all, forget the 'firing a pup up' excuse and tell us exactly HOW chasing/fighting a coon will help bring out & develop the 'tolling' behavior that is essential for a decoy dog to to do it's job???
It is my opinion that you don't just throw a dog some offgame to chew & call it a started decoy dog. It is very difficult to simulate the desired behavior of a decoy dog on stand. From what little I understand of the behavior, the most effective way to do it remains taking the pup on stand, after stand, after stand, after stand.

I'm not singling you out in my reply, Jesse. I'd like to hear from any anyone else who's gung ho on using coons to train their decoy pups. How does the behavior of engage & pursue to a fight (coon) somehow correlate to engage, then run away from a fight (coyote)???

 
And if you guys haven't picked up on it, I'm playing "devil's advocate" here in the spirit of stimulating conversation & sharing knowledge, because I'm faaaaarrrr and away not even close to figuring this stuff out...
 
there you have it the last 3 posts summed up alot of what i'm was trying to get across. i can talk way better than i can type.lol and by the way i ain't looking to start no fight with anyone on here but wasnt this better than than just looking on the houndsman section of pred masters and having a discussion instead of nothing?

what do you guys want to fight about next? LOL
 
I'm glad that you guys could see things my way.....lol.

I like these types of discussions because we are trying to describe what kind of dog we want to hunt with and what we expect from our dogs. I don't have show dogs....they just roll around in the dirt.
 
PXtreme article linky
The gentleman who wrote that article needs no introduction, but Mr. Cal Taylor has been using decoy dogs on coyotes for a long azz time. And he is one of the 1st ADC men to show decoy dogs at work in his video "Coyote Hunting is Going to the Dogs".

The article offers very basic tips for getting a prospect started, so can anyone find any reference to 'firing up' a pup with a caged coon anywhere?
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Man if it were such a good idea, you'd think one of the godfathers of decoy dogs would have mentioned it?
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P.S. the dog in the article photo is not Cal's...
 
well this has been a good read to see how different people train dogs. i probably do it wrong for everyone but me, but it works for my turd hounds. i use my dogs on everything i come across, be a coyote (trapped, snared, trapped, called, etc.), a coon (in a trap, crossing the road, in a feeder), beaver (in a lodge, bank hole, snare), bobcats, hogs, finding wounded deer, if i need a dog for it or can figure out a way to use a dog for it i will. every pup i have ever raised has been baying coons in a cage trap by the time they were 9 or 10 weeks old, why coons? cause they are easy to trap in any feed room i go by, easy to bring home and show to pups, i will start them on snared coyotes when they are old enough to follow a 4-wheeler. but i will still let older dogs bay a coon or fight it. like i siad i use mine on alot of different stuff but if they were only decoying i would still let mine bay a coon or fight it, does this ever give me problems, yes it does, i will jump a coon while hog hunting every so often, but i cant have a different set of dogs for everything i hunt, so i have to deal with some trashing. my dogs and the way i train mine works for me but most people wouldnt even feed this set of culls, but i happen to get to work with guys that use a dog everyday for the same reasons i do and hunt everything they come across and do it pretty much the same way i do so it works for us, but like i said probably wont work for everyone.

but on another note, letting your dog bay a coon in a trap is not going to make or brake him, i know where some of the best decoy dogs in the US are and some have bayed coon and some have not, the one thing they all have in common is they have seen more game in the first yr of their lives then most dogs will in a life time, nothing against the dogs that dont see that much, most people are not going to be able to have the time to show a dog as much game as they would like to, but in my opinion alot of people try to find some way to make a great dog and the one thing it takes is ALOT of game put in front of the dog, you do that and your chances just went up by alot, no matter what kind of hunting dog you are trying to train
 
Originally Posted By: trapper2well this has been a good read to see how different people train dogs. i probably do it wrong for everyone but me, but it works for my turd hounds. i use my dogs on everything i come across, be a coyote (trapped, snared, trapped, called, etc.), a coon (in a trap, crossing the road, in a feeder), beaver (in a lodge, bank hole, snare), bobcats, hogs, finding wounded deer, if i need a dog for it or can figure out a way to use a dog for it i will. every pup i have ever raised has been baying coons in a cage trap by the time they were 9 or 10 weeks old, why coons? cause they are easy to trap in any feed room i go by, easy to bring home and show to pups, i will start them on snared coyotes when they are old enough to follow a 4-wheeler. but i will still let older dogs bay a coon or fight it. like i siad i use mine on alot of different stuff but if they were only decoying i would still let mine bay a coon or fight it, does this ever give me problems, yes it does, i will jump a coon while hog hunting every so often, but i cant have a different set of dogs for everything i hunt, so i have to deal with some trashing. my dogs and the way i train mine works for me but most people wouldnt even feed this set of culls, but i happen to get to work with guys that use a dog everyday for the same reasons i do and hunt everything they come across and do it pretty much the same way i do so it works for us, but like i said probably wont work for everyone.

but on another note, letting your dog bay a coon in a trap is not going to make or brake him, i know where some of the best decoy dogs in the US are and some have bayed coon and some have not, the one thing they all have in common is they have seen more game in the first yr of their lives then most dogs will in a life time, nothing against the dogs that dont see that much, most people are not going to be able to have the time to show a dog as much game as they would like to, but in my opinion alot of people try to find some way to make a great dog and the one thing it takes is ALOT of game put in front of the dog, you do that and your chances just went up by alot, no matter what kind of hunting dog you are trying to train

Good post Ryan. I agree with you. I was going to post something similar but have learned if your not a dog expert your opinion aint worth nothing in this forum. I dont want my dogs working coons, but I would sick them on one if the opportunity arose. It aint going to make them any less of a decoy dog to ruff up a coon from time to time. I had a dillo in the yard and sicked Spot and Doc on it. They had a good time killing it and I enjoyed watching it. I think it was good for them. Ive made a hundred stands since then with no problems with them running around looking for dillos. Im not a dog expert, never ever claimed to be. I do however spend a lot of time with my dogs. Ive learned a lot just watching them. In fact I may go out and find a coon just to watch them kill it.
 
I've been guiding the past few days and nights and finally got caught up on this thread. There's some good discussion here. The fact of the matter is, that all train and use their dogs differently to suit their needs. In my case, Gunner has caught 8 different coyotes in the past 2-3 weeks, that were missed by hunters. He got a big pat on the head and the coyote was strung up on the fur pole. That's part of his job, in my book. There were a handful of others that he caught, picked a fight, then came back, looking over his shoulder, trying to decoy them back to us. I would have loved to add them to the fur pole, but it was enjoyable watching him trying to figure out when to decoy and when to not, as a relatively young dog. To have your dog cast out after coyotes, especially at night, and not have the confidence that they can handle themselves in a fighting situation (defensive or offensive) with coyote(s) is suicidal. Around these neck of the woods, a dog wouldn't last very long.

We all use our dogs differently. To say one form of training is wrong and another is right is simply an opinion and nothing more.

Good read.

Tony
 
jeff, believe me i'm no dog expert by any means but i probably spend as much time with my mutts as most anyone does and i think the more time you spend with a dog and the more game you show them the better they will be, even my pot lickers will decoy a coyote once or twice a year, and if i'm real lucky i will get it killed
 
Originally Posted By: trapper2jeff, believe me i'm no dog expert by any means but i probably spend as much time with my mutts as most anyone does and i think the more time you spend with a dog and the more game you show them the better they will be, even my pot lickers will decoy a coyote once or twice a year, and if i'm real lucky i will get it killed

Ryan, for what its worth I respect your opinion on dogs as much as anyone's. Thats why I pester you all the time with stupid questions.
 
Originally Posted By: emeraldterriers1

what do you guys want to fight about next? LOL

To dock tails or not....

E-collars...boon or bane ?


Seriously, some of the best fist fights I've ever seen have occurred in parking lots of cafes and along dirt roads ....and it always involved dogmen of some sort.
 
Originally Posted By: TonyTebbeWe all use our dogs differently. To say one form of training is wrong and another is right is simply an opinion and nothing more.

Good read.

Tony

I relent to that...
 
True enough.

Good thing nobody has said one way of training is "right" and another is "wrong". What makes perfect sense to one man, might not make any sense to another man in different position.

Originally Posted By: Tony TebbeTo have your dog cast out after coyotes, especially at night, and not have the confidence that they can handle themselves in a fighting situation (defensive or offensive) with coyote(s) is suicidal. Around these neck of the woods, a dog wouldn't last very long.

Tony, that is an excellent point & I'm glad you brought that up. Given the the fact that you are experienced in running a decoy/recovery/trail/dispatch dog at night on desert coyotes in the 18-30 lb. range, I'd like to pick your brain about how you think that type of dog would work here in NY?

Originally Posted By: Tony TebbeIn my case, Gunner has caught 8 different coyotes in the past 2-3 weeks, that were missed by hunters. What do you mean by the word caught? Like caught by himself & finished? Or caught & bayed?

Generally speaking, our adult female coyotes are from 33-40 lbs and adult males between 41-55 lbs. And any reputable houndsman from this area will tell you that it requires some SERIOUS dog power to down a coyote. Races last for 10's of MILES and caught coyotes usually require two or more BIG hounds to finish them, even after a long race. Suffice to say there won't be any "catching coyotes" at night going on, bayed or otherwise.
Big , gritty coon dogs get run out of the woods often enough here and even running hounds that stretch coyotes in the winter after a chase will turn tail & head for the truck at night when a coyote turns the table on them (see Aaron's earlier post)

That all said & given your above quote, would you recommend running a decoy dog with Gunner's skill set here in NY at night?
How long do you think IT would last here, given our much larger coyotes & well documented aggression against hounds twice their size after dark???

I realize your answers would be speculation at best, but I take the welfare of my dog very seriously & really have no one in my area that runs decoy dogs.
To be honest, based on what what I shared above, I have some genuine reservations about having too 'gritty' a decoy dog here in NY. And running one at night would REALLY be taking a risk, IMHO.

Do you think it even remotely possible that a decoy dog could have enough 'grit' to handle a pack of 40#+ coyotes at night by itself? How 'bout in the daytime?

Will any amount of 'coon training' give my dog enough confidence to fight off 3-5 40# coytoes? Or will that extra confidence & 'grit' just get him in a position to be more readily kilt???

thanks...
 
Caught, meaning caught. Run after, catch, and roll up a coyote. Most were bayed, but a couple were dispatched. All were either, missed shots or a secondary coyote on a calling stand. Most were at night, but he caught a daytime coyote just 2 days ago.

I don't believe I'd use a dog like Gunner on your larger coyotes in NY, especially in thick woods. I've had him take off after 4 coyotes in the woods in TX, a year or so ago. I was worried sick about him, when he didn't return. After a while, he came running back with 5 coyotes on his tail. He plopped right down next to us and the shotgunner rolled 2 of them up. Was I worried about him...heck yes!

As I said in prior posts, I haven't used any coons on training Gunner. Heck, we don't even have any around here. But, it doesn't mean I wouldn't of used them in training. I definitely would.

In the open prairie, where I hunt, there were lots of times that I had 5, 6, 7, 8 coyotes after him. Canines are alot smarter than you think. They can size up a situation or opponent and know when they can or cannot handle it. As far as coyotes, most want to chase the dog and nip at their azz end. Even young dogs that I have in training, that seek shelter from a pair of coyotes, instead of making it all the way back to the calling stand, aren't in real danger. (of course I have them covered with firepower, if they are). I've seen coyote pairs chase a young dog that holes up, leave the dog and start chasing the more visible dog. I haven't experienced any coyotes want to flat kill a dog. Most just nip them in the rear to send them away. I would assume that all out brawls to the death in the coyote world are very rare.

Tony
 
Aaron, some of my most exciting decoy action has been at night this season. I've watched coyotes that were shot at and missed, get chased and decoy right back to the hunting rig, to within shotgun range. One put on a heck of a display of barking, howling, dirt kicking, etc... at a mere 10 steps from the rig. That's where it died.
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Neatest thing is, watching the dog and coyote work each other, knowing they can't see the other. Must be by sound and scent. Confidence is much higher on the coyote's part at night. All of this was recent and had nothing to do with denning season.

Tony
 
Thank you, Tony!

I'm sure there are a bunch of houndsmen here in NY/PA that would LOVE to own a single dog that can 'catch' one of our coyotes on it's own so efficiently & with such regularity.
 
Fred, there's a big difference between running coyotes with hounds and what I'm doing. I've ran foxhounds for many years. Gunner is a sprinter. Most races/catches are within 3/4 mile. He'll catch a coyote, but not in a long chase. He's he// on wheels on a jackrabbit too.
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My clients got to watch him catch a jack the other night and hear some live rabbit distress.

Tony
 
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