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#2025920 - 10/23/11 10:15 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: btech29]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
jeff, believe me i'm no dog expert by any means but i probably spend as much time with my mutts as most anyone does and i think the more time you spend with a dog and the more game you show them the better they will be, even my pot lickers will decoy a coyote once or twice a year, and if i'm real lucky i will get it killed
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2025924 - 10/23/11 10:20 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: trapper2]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
Originally Posted By: trapper2
jeff, believe me i'm no dog expert by any means but i probably spend as much time with my mutts as most anyone does and i think the more time you spend with a dog and the more game you show them the better they will be, even my pot lickers will decoy a coyote once or twice a year, and if i'm real lucky i will get it killed


Ryan, for what its worth I respect your opinion on dogs as much as anyone's. Thats why I pester you all the time with stupid questions.
_________________________
You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2026079 - 10/24/11 07:55 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
Aaron_Proffitt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 516
Loc: Elgin, OK
Originally Posted By: emeraldterriers1


what do you guys want to fight about next? LOL


To dock tails or not....

E-collars...boon or bane ?


Seriously, some of the best fist fights I've ever seen have occurred in parking lots of cafes and along dirt roads ....and it always involved dogmen of some sort.

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#2026082 - 10/24/11 07:56 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: TonyTebbe]
Aaron_Proffitt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 516
Loc: Elgin, OK
Originally Posted By: TonyTebbe
We all use our dogs differently. To say one form of training is wrong and another is right is simply an opinion and nothing more.

Good read.

Tony


I relent to that...

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#2026104 - 10/24/11 09:30 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: Aaron_Proffitt]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
True enough.

Good thing nobody has said one way of training is "right" and another is "wrong". What makes perfect sense to one man, might not make any sense to another man in different position.

Originally Posted By: Tony Tebbe
To have your dog cast out after coyotes, especially at night, and not have the confidence that they can handle themselves in a fighting situation (defensive or offensive) with coyote(s) is suicidal. Around these neck of the woods, a dog wouldn't last very long.


Tony, that is an excellent point & I'm glad you brought that up. Given the the fact that you are experienced in running a decoy/recovery/trail/dispatch dog at night on desert coyotes in the 18-30 lb. range, I'd like to pick your brain about how you think that type of dog would work here in NY?

Originally Posted By: Tony Tebbe
In my case, Gunner has caught 8 different coyotes in the past 2-3 weeks, that were missed by hunters.
What do you mean by the word caught? Like caught by himself & finished? Or caught & bayed?

Generally speaking, our adult female coyotes are from 33-40 lbs and adult males between 41-55 lbs. And any reputable houndsman from this area will tell you that it requires some SERIOUS dog power to down a coyote. Races last for 10's of MILES and caught coyotes usually require two or more BIG hounds to finish them, even after a long race. Suffice to say there won't be any "catching coyotes" at night going on, bayed or otherwise.
Big , gritty coon dogs get run out of the woods often enough here and even running hounds that stretch coyotes in the winter after a chase will turn tail & head for the truck at night when a coyote turns the table on them (see Aaron's earlier post)

That all said & given your above quote, would you recommend running a decoy dog with Gunner's skill set here in NY at night?
How long do you think IT would last here, given our much larger coyotes & well documented aggression against hounds twice their size after dark???

I realize your answers would be speculation at best, but I take the welfare of my dog very seriously & really have no one in my area that runs decoy dogs.
To be honest, based on what what I shared above, I have some genuine reservations about having too 'gritty' a decoy dog here in NY. And running one at night would REALLY be taking a risk, IMHO.

Do you think it even remotely possible that a decoy dog could have enough 'grit' to handle a pack of 40#+ coyotes at night by itself? How 'bout in the daytime?

Will any amount of 'coon training' give my dog enough confidence to fight off 3-5 40# coytoes? Or will that extra confidence & 'grit' just get him in a position to be more readily kilt???

thanks...

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#2026120 - 10/24/11 09:50 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: knockemdown]
Aaron_Proffitt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 516
Loc: Elgin, OK
Good points and you and Tony bring up another factor...how a coyote's behavior completely changes at night.

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#2026124 - 10/24/11 09:59 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: knockemdown]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
Caught, meaning caught. Run after, catch, and roll up a coyote. Most were bayed, but a couple were dispatched. All were either, missed shots or a secondary coyote on a calling stand. Most were at night, but he caught a daytime coyote just 2 days ago.

I don't believe I'd use a dog like Gunner on your larger coyotes in NY, especially in thick woods. I've had him take off after 4 coyotes in the woods in TX, a year or so ago. I was worried sick about him, when he didn't return. After a while, he came running back with 5 coyotes on his tail. He plopped right down next to us and the shotgunner rolled 2 of them up. Was I worried about him...heck yes!

As I said in prior posts, I haven't used any coons on training Gunner. Heck, we don't even have any around here. But, it doesn't mean I wouldn't of used them in training. I definitely would.

In the open prairie, where I hunt, there were lots of times that I had 5, 6, 7, 8 coyotes after him. Canines are alot smarter than you think. They can size up a situation or opponent and know when they can or cannot handle it. As far as coyotes, most want to chase the dog and nip at their azz end. Even young dogs that I have in training, that seek shelter from a pair of coyotes, instead of making it all the way back to the calling stand, aren't in real danger. (of course I have them covered with firepower, if they are). I've seen coyote pairs chase a young dog that holes up, leave the dog and start chasing the more visible dog. I haven't experienced any coyotes want to flat kill a dog. Most just nip them in the rear to send them away. I would assume that all out brawls to the death in the coyote world are very rare.

Tony
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Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2026126 - 10/24/11 10:03 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: TonyTebbe]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
Aaron, some of my most exciting decoy action has been at night this season. I've watched coyotes that were shot at and missed, get chased and decoy right back to the hunting rig, to within shotgun range. One put on a heck of a display of barking, howling, dirt kicking, etc... at a mere 10 steps from the rig. That's where it died. smile

Neatest thing is, watching the dog and coyote work each other, knowing they can't see the other. Must be by sound and scent. Confidence is much higher on the coyote's part at night. All of this was recent and had nothing to do with denning season.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2026164 - 10/24/11 11:06 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: TonyTebbe]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Thank you, Tony!

I'm sure there are a bunch of houndsmen here in NY/PA that would LOVE to own a single dog that can 'catch' one of our coyotes on it's own so efficiently & with such regularity.

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#2026172 - 10/24/11 11:17 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: knockemdown]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
Fred, there's a big difference between running coyotes with hounds and what I'm doing. I've ran foxhounds for many years. Gunner is a sprinter. Most races/catches are within 3/4 mile. He'll catch a coyote, but not in a long chase. He's he// on wheels on a jackrabbit too. smile My clients got to watch him catch a jack the other night and hear some live rabbit distress.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2026186 - 10/24/11 11:42 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: TonyTebbe]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Gotcha.
So how does Gunner know which coyotes to run/catch and which to decoy back to the truck? Or is he catching YOYs and getting run back to the truck by adults, aka 'decoying' them?

From the coyote wagon guys with stags I've conversed with, it takes a VERY special stag to single catch/finish an adult coyote.
So, Gunner can 'catch' a coyote on the open prairie with relative ease, and retains the ability to decoy them back to shotgun range as well?
Who is in control & decides what to Gunner is to do, and with which coyote? Does he really have THAT much sense to decide what to do on his own?
How does this dog handling work? Are you 'toning' him into 'decoy mode'? Or is he in 'decoy mode' until you sicc'em on a coyote?

If he likes to catch jackrabbits, aren't there enough around for him to 'trash' out of performing his decoy/ catchdog combo role? Or does he only chase jacks when there are no coyotes around to run down & kill, or decoy? (I ask because I've broke my pup off rabbits)

Sounds like an awful lot going on, especially under the stars! Heck, I thought it be a might be alot to expect my pup to decoy coyotes the day & tree coon at night!!! You've got a whole nutha level of specialized dog work going on there...

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#2026211 - 10/24/11 12:32 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: knockemdown]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
He doesn't know which one to catch and which one to decoy. He is just figuring it out now. He's tried decoying back coyotes that have been poorly shot, on three or four stands in a single night. I was less than pleased that they got away, but I couldn't reprehend a dog for trying to naturally decoy. Sometimes, he will catch a coyote, roll it up, you can hear the fight on, and I will beep him back, bringing the coyote in tow. Sometimes, not.

The other night, we had a coyote coming in good. It stopped at 50 yards out. My buddy Scott shot at it, but his bullet clipped the top wire of a barb fence. Coyote took off, Gunner chased and caught it about 200 yards out. In the midst of the fight, another coyote came from a different direction. By this time, Gunner was coming back from the fight, stopping and looking over his shoulder, trying to bring the coyote back to the rig. The second coyote circled downwind of where the the fight took place and my wife shot at it. It was a pretty far night time shot and she missed. The coyote took off. Gunner ran back out to the second coyote, worked the area hard, ran it's scent, then came back to the rig, with coyote in tow. No commands were given, as we sat back and watch to see how it would all unfold.

Sometimes commands are given, other times he takes things into his own paws. He's had enough experience on stands that he knows when things are going to he// in a hand basket. The other morning, we had a coyote approach us on our backside, standing on a sandhill 10 yards behind us. Noone had a shot. Coyote sized up the situation and decided to bail out. Gunner decided to try and decoy him. No command given. Coyote didn't decoy back, but was proud of him for trying to save the stand.

There is no 'trashing' when it comes to jackrabbits. The dogs will run past 100 rabbits to go after a coyote. But, if we are on a calling stand and a jackrabbit charges in to the call, I'll sick him on them. The hot pursuit barking and chasing adds to the stand. I've had the dogs take off after rabbits, only to drag an unseen coyote back to the stand, from the ruckus. When calling, you are creating chaos on the scene. A rabbit squalling, dog chasing it, let alone catching it...it all makes for some exciting coyote action.

It's not rocket science, it's just hunting. Hope that helps.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2026368 - 10/24/11 04:46 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: TonyTebbe]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Different strokes for different folks, but if you want your dog to be able to fight coyotes put him on coyotes. Coons fight allot different than a yotes will. If your dog has learned to fight coons, and runs into a wounded or bayed yotes and thinks he is gonna grab it by the back or belly and shake and squeeze until it gives up its throat, well I hope you know how to sew.

Like I said, I will put any fog on a coon if I want to see what kind of grit it has, they are easy to trap, and put up a good fight, but unless im training a coon dog, im not going to use it as a training device. Shoot even when I train coon hounds I rarely turn one loose on a live coon on the ground and let them fight.

JMO
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2026465 - 10/24/11 06:58 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: Jesse lackey]
emeraldterriers1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 697
Loc: kansas
for sale... 6 seasoned stags... looking for a cur.
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#2026533 - 10/24/11 08:06 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Good discussion guys,
Since it was asked, (I don't remember by who), I have had dogs "hit" by an aggressive coyote, many times, generally no big deal, but no secret I run a bigger dog than some.
I did have a dog "whipped" at night, but that was at a den,in chest high brush in the dark. We killed three adults, and packed an 85 # catahoulla stud back to the rig.Knowing how to fight, and being on over 100 yotes by that point of his life didn't help him win, all he won that night was "first loser".Some DEX,and two days off, he was healing up fine.Most of the country I hunt, If a dog gets more than 50 yards they are out of sight.
Very simple, no matter how tough a dog is, he only has teeth on one end, 3 yotes have teeth all the way around, and can do damage if they set their mind to it.One out if the fat dog could catch a yote, it would be in trouble, fact is, a single yote would run away most times.
As for "fido licking his nuts", and gettin nailed,I guess it would serve him right.
The "coon deal" is and should be "to each there own".
I don't think it hurts, not sure that it helps.
I do know that the more any dog is used,(cowdogs,decoy dogs, hounds) the better they are.

A side note, thanks for keeping this a freindly discussion.
Duane
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"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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