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#2025147 - 10/22/11 09:55 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming


aaron proffit, dont be mad rolleyes do you hunt your dogs? do you decoy coyotes? i have a airedale but dont have a good enough handle on her to bring her back cursing is it because she is to "gamey" maybe? or maybe she justs turns a deaf ear, but i can promise you this she will fight and i didnt have to teach her $hit.lol can she kill a coyote that is uninjured? nope i dont believe so,can she track/trail a coyote wounded or not ? you bet she can.i have ran her like a trail hound many times pushing creek bottoms and moving several coyotes (up to 5) and she does this alone thumbup1never had one or two whip her. maybe i'm just lucky? dont know. one thing to remember... its better to be pissed off than to be pissed on tt2 [/quote]

Sounds to me that your dale is not hunting for you to me! Man I must have really screwed my dogs up. We hunt what ever arises at the time. But we have a great time.

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#2025300 - 10/23/11 04:39 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
Catdawg Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/13/09
Posts: 121
Loc: Nevada
ET- The only person talking about a decoy dog killing a Coyote, is you pal.

Usually a "Decoy Dog" has a handler with a gun (Or a couple Stags... huh UHD?) along to do the killing. You have made it very clear you don't do any decoying by some of the things you have said and the interpretations you have made.

If you can't see the obvious need/benefit of having a dog that knows how to defend itself when decoying coyotes, then you really have no clue how this game is played.

I will agree with you that if a coyote gets put in a position where it's life is on the line, it will seek a way out! I am in no way talking about that scenario when I say a decoy dog needs to be able to fight to protect itself.

I was more thinking about the scenario where a big, dominant male coyote comes hauling in to your challenge howl, on a dead run and ole "Fido" is sitting there licking his nuts... He's about to get in a fight and it just might help if he knows how!

Take care.

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#2025321 - 10/23/11 07:38 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: Catdawg]
emeraldterriers1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 697
Loc: kansas
where have you seen me make a post about a decoy dog killing a coyote??? you have me mixed up with someone else,pal. iv'e seen lots of pics on here but they sure aint killin coyotes they are DECOYING them. catdawg, have you had a big, dominate male come hauling in and just bowl your decoy dog over? did he stay on top of your dog and soundly whoop him? i would love to see the coyote that could /would try this on our airedale or duanes@ssu catahoula's,or one jesses hounds... like i said before we must have a different coyote here... smart ones.

decoy dog sitting there licking its nuts. maybe that one needs ate.lol
all joking aside
i agree with you 100% about a young dog not getting it handed to him
_________________________
all i can say is WOW

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#2025324 - 10/23/11 07:46 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: Dustballs]
emeraldterriers1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 697
Loc: kansas
Originally Posted By: Dustballs


aaron proffit, dont be mad rolleyes do you hunt your dogs? do you decoy coyotes? i have a airedale but dont have a good enough handle on her to bring her back cursing is it because she is to "gamey" maybe? or maybe she justs turns a deaf ear, but i can promise you this she will fight and i didnt have to teach her $hit.lol can she kill a coyote that is uninjured? nope i dont believe so,can she track/trail a coyote wounded or not ? you bet she can.i have ran her like a trail hound many times pushing creek bottoms and moving several coyotes (up to 5) and she does this alone thumbup1never had one or two whip her. maybe i'm just lucky? dont know. one thing to remember... its better to be pissed off than to be pissed on tt2


Sounds to me that your dale is not hunting for you to me! Man I must have really screwed my dogs up. We hunt what ever arises at the time. But we have a great time. [/quote]

that my freind has alot to do with being a terrier and not a cur... naw i bet your dogs suits you fine other wise you wouldn't keep them. same here too, have worked coons,coyotes badgers,bobcats,if the critter lives here we have tried it.last but not least thats the most important have a good time. wink
_________________________
all i can say is WOW

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#2025329 - 10/23/11 08:01 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: DoubleCK]
emeraldterriers1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 697
Loc: kansas
Originally Posted By: DoubleCK
Originally Posted By: emeraldterriers1
i have ran her like a trail hound many times pushing creek bottoms and moving several coyotes


Cool! Do you post shooters up the creek? Sounds like fun.

Tell us how that works.


yep have posted shooters or sent the stags when they pop out. my favorite place is a dry creek bottom(really dry this yr) that covers 2 sections. we start the airedale on the south end of the creek we move a 1/2 mile west into a hay field and kind of follow/border her as she moves up the drainage.any coyotes that squirt out on this side the stags get the call. the north end usually a shotgunner waits and takes any thing that goes all the way through. this is usually a late winter stand as most break for open ground till then. the east side we let go its open wheat fields,but we get after'm as soon as they get across them. its just a game rich spot, we have taken lots of coyotes several bobcats,coons in this place lots of fun and action.
_________________________
all i can say is WOW

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#2025363 - 10/23/11 09:33 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Where do you guys get the misconceptions that you need to train a dog to defend itself? The point that is trying to be made s simple, and it makes no difference weather a guy hunts with decoy dogs or not, a general understanding of dogs will tell you that if a dog is doing its job, let it do its job.

If you find yourself "teaching your dog to defend himself" well then o would say you don't have much of a dog there.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2025438 - 10/23/11 10:53 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
gonzaga Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4365
Loc: Raton, NM U.S.A.
I like to shoot the coyotes before they cause bodily harm. The dog bringing the coyote to me is the part that I'm in for not the dogs fighting. Heck if I wanted my freaking dogs fighting all the time, I would take my dogs to the local meatheads with a yard full of in untrained pitbulls on their chains. That ain't what I'm about. I ain't a dog fighting fan.

I want my dogs to succeed, and give them as much confidence as possible. That's why I used the coyote hide to let him chew on. I don't have a ton of coons around every corner like some of you guys, just every once in awhile. I guess I want him to get gamey, and he knows when I call him off that it's over and time to move on to the next game.
I'm a dog hobbiest, I hunt them as much as I can. Not for a living.
If you hunt coons, cool. I'm sure I could learn alot by hunting with you. Heck I'm sure that I couldn't hold a candle to any of you guys, nor could my dogs.
I'm just trying to have fun and spend time with my dogs and my kids.

Good luck guys and keep on hunting.
_________________________
Tighten up your helmet and grab your crayons Turbo.....this could get bumpy....

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#2025458 - 10/23/11 11:14 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: Jesse lackey]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
Likewise, GZ. This is all about fun for me & the pup...

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
Where do you guys get the misconceptions that you need to train a dog to defend itself? The point that is trying to be made s simple, and it makes no difference weather a guy hunts with decoy dogs or not, a general understanding of dogs will tell you that if a dog is doing its job, let it do its job.

If you find yourself "teaching your dog to defend himself" well then o would say you don't have much of a dog there.



Jesse, I don't have ANY misconceptions as to training 'defense'. You are reading more into that than is really there. It has already been established in this thread that ANY dog worth it's hide already possesses the innate ability & desire to defend itself.
I was simply making apparent the difference in BEHAVIOR, one to the other. When training a dog, a handler's goal is to reinforce desired behaviors and admonish undesirable ones. Even smart dogs are at best DUMB, and need consistent & repeated reinforcement & praise to lock in a desirable behavior. If a handler deviates somehow, it is only confusing the dog, therefore making it's training more difficult. Put a dog with 1/2 a brain cell, ample prey drive and the desire to please in a position to succeed and 99x out of 100, that hunting dog is gonna make you smile. But it's OUR job as their handler/trainer to effectively CREATE that scenario and PRAISE that behavior accordingly.

To recommend that a dog which has already seen 15 coyote on stand, needs a few coon to 'teach' it, isn't going to further that dog any in it's decoy training. At best, it won't help one bit and more likely, at worst, it's just gonna confuse the dog as to what you expect from it. These cur dogs are very sensitive to pleasing you, so IMHO, not good to screw with their little brains like that. They learn quick enough, so why make it harder?
Training a multipurpoe hunting dog is exponentially harder, and requires much more specific parameters for locking in desired behaviors. This is where having a dog with 'brains' (loosely used) is essential! But you still need to establish what you want the dog to do & be consistent enough for the dog to figure out what it's job is at the moment...

That said, the fact remains that having your pup fight a coon makes about as much sense to me for training a decoy dog as would training your foxhound to perform a water retrieve laugh The one desired BEHAVIOR of the dog has nothing to do with the other...

Using 'offgame' to fire up a young pup is one thing. But that interaction dang sure ain't gonna learn that pup how to FOOL A COYOTE BACK TO YOU ON A CALLING STAND. This has been my whole stance all along and I'm stickin' to it. That part requires BRAINS (learned behavior), not brawn (basic prey drive)...

Originally Posted By: Catdawg
There are reasons to use coons for training a decoy dog, like to fire up the game drive in a pup and maybe to teach a pup what end has teeth and means business... other than that, the dog will learn very little that will help it with coyotes.


So again to all, forget the 'firing a pup up' excuse and tell us exactly HOW chasing/fighting a coon will help bring out & develop the 'tolling' behavior that is essential for a decoy dog to to do it's job???
It is my opinion that you don't just throw a dog some offgame to chew & call it a started decoy dog. It is very difficult to simulate the desired behavior of a decoy dog on stand. From what little I understand of the behavior, the most effective way to do it remains taking the pup on stand, after stand, after stand, after stand.

I'm not singling you out in my reply, Jesse. I'd like to hear from any anyone else who's gung ho on using coons to train their decoy pups. How does the behavior of engage & pursue to a fight (coon) somehow correlate to engage, then run away from a fight (coyote)???


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#2025483 - 10/23/11 11:48 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: knockemdown]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
And if you guys haven't picked up on it, I'm playing "devil's advocate" here in the spirit of stimulating conversation & sharing knowledge, because I'm faaaaarrrr and away not even close to figuring this stuff out...

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#2025484 - 10/23/11 11:50 AM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: knockemdown]
emeraldterriers1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 697
Loc: kansas
there you have it the last 3 posts summed up alot of what i'm was trying to get across. i can talk way better than i can type.lol and by the way i ain't looking to start no fight with anyone on here but wasnt this better than than just looking on the houndsman section of pred masters and having a discussion instead of nothing?

what do you guys want to fight about next? LOL
_________________________
all i can say is WOW

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#2025534 - 10/23/11 01:24 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
gonzaga Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4365
Loc: Raton, NM U.S.A.
I'm glad that you guys could see things my way.....lol.

I like these types of discussions because we are trying to describe what kind of dog we want to hunt with and what we expect from our dogs. I don't have show dogs....they just roll around in the dirt.
_________________________
Tighten up your helmet and grab your crayons Turbo.....this could get bumpy....

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#2025558 - 10/23/11 02:12 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: gonzaga]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
PXtreme article linky
The gentleman who wrote that article needs no introduction, but Mr. Cal Taylor has been using decoy dogs on coyotes for a long azz time. And he is one of the 1st ADC men to show decoy dogs at work in his video "Coyote Hunting is Going to the Dogs".

The article offers very basic tips for getting a prospect started, so can anyone find any reference to 'firing up' a pup with a caged coon anywhere? confused Man if it were such a good idea, you'd think one of the godfathers of decoy dogs would have mentioned it? whistle

P.S. the dog in the article photo is not Cal's...

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#2025845 - 10/23/11 09:06 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: knockemdown]
trapper2 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 2182
Loc: north central okla
well this has been a good read to see how different people train dogs. i probably do it wrong for everyone but me, but it works for my turd hounds. i use my dogs on everything i come across, be a coyote (trapped, snared, trapped, called, etc.), a coon (in a trap, crossing the road, in a feeder), beaver (in a lodge, bank hole, snare), bobcats, hogs, finding wounded deer, if i need a dog for it or can figure out a way to use a dog for it i will. every pup i have ever raised has been baying coons in a cage trap by the time they were 9 or 10 weeks old, why coons? cause they are easy to trap in any feed room i go by, easy to bring home and show to pups, i will start them on snared coyotes when they are old enough to follow a 4-wheeler. but i will still let older dogs bay a coon or fight it. like i siad i use mine on alot of different stuff but if they were only decoying i would still let mine bay a coon or fight it, does this ever give me problems, yes it does, i will jump a coon while hog hunting every so often, but i cant have a different set of dogs for everything i hunt, so i have to deal with some trashing. my dogs and the way i train mine works for me but most people wouldnt even feed this set of culls, but i happen to get to work with guys that use a dog everyday for the same reasons i do and hunt everything they come across and do it pretty much the same way i do so it works for us, but like i said probably wont work for everyone.

but on another note, letting your dog bay a coon in a trap is not going to make or brake him, i know where some of the best decoy dogs in the US are and some have bayed coon and some have not, the one thing they all have in common is they have seen more game in the first yr of their lives then most dogs will in a life time, nothing against the dogs that dont see that much, most people are not going to be able to have the time to show a dog as much game as they would like to, but in my opinion alot of people try to find some way to make a great dog and the one thing it takes is ALOT of game put in front of the dog, you do that and your chances just went up by alot, no matter what kind of hunting dog you are trying to train
_________________________
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong

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#2025909 - 10/23/11 10:05 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: trapper2]
btech29 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/17/11
Posts: 1515
Loc: NW Arkansas
Originally Posted By: trapper2
well this has been a good read to see how different people train dogs. i probably do it wrong for everyone but me, but it works for my turd hounds. i use my dogs on everything i come across, be a coyote (trapped, snared, trapped, called, etc.), a coon (in a trap, crossing the road, in a feeder), beaver (in a lodge, bank hole, snare), bobcats, hogs, finding wounded deer, if i need a dog for it or can figure out a way to use a dog for it i will. every pup i have ever raised has been baying coons in a cage trap by the time they were 9 or 10 weeks old, why coons? cause they are easy to trap in any feed room i go by, easy to bring home and show to pups, i will start them on snared coyotes when they are old enough to follow a 4-wheeler. but i will still let older dogs bay a coon or fight it. like i siad i use mine on alot of different stuff but if they were only decoying i would still let mine bay a coon or fight it, does this ever give me problems, yes it does, i will jump a coon while hog hunting every so often, but i cant have a different set of dogs for everything i hunt, so i have to deal with some trashing. my dogs and the way i train mine works for me but most people wouldnt even feed this set of culls, but i happen to get to work with guys that use a dog everyday for the same reasons i do and hunt everything they come across and do it pretty much the same way i do so it works for us, but like i said probably wont work for everyone.

but on another note, letting your dog bay a coon in a trap is not going to make or brake him, i know where some of the best decoy dogs in the US are and some have bayed coon and some have not, the one thing they all have in common is they have seen more game in the first yr of their lives then most dogs will in a life time, nothing against the dogs that dont see that much, most people are not going to be able to have the time to show a dog as much game as they would like to, but in my opinion alot of people try to find some way to make a great dog and the one thing it takes is ALOT of game put in front of the dog, you do that and your chances just went up by alot, no matter what kind of hunting dog you are trying to train


Good post Ryan. I agree with you. I was going to post something similar but have learned if your not a dog expert your opinion aint worth nothing in this forum. I dont want my dogs working coons, but I would sick them on one if the opportunity arose. It aint going to make them any less of a decoy dog to ruff up a coon from time to time. I had a dillo in the yard and sicked Spot and Doc on it. They had a good time killing it and I enjoyed watching it. I think it was good for them. Ive made a hundred stands since then with no problems with them running around looking for dillos. Im not a dog expert, never ever claimed to be. I do however spend a lot of time with my dogs. Ive learned a lot just watching them. In fact I may go out and find a coon just to watch them kill it.
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You can tell a lot about a man by watching him cross a fence.

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#2025915 - 10/23/11 10:12 PM Re: should you use a coon for training??? [Re: trapper2]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
I've been guiding the past few days and nights and finally got caught up on this thread. There's some good discussion here. The fact of the matter is, that all train and use their dogs differently to suit their needs. In my case, Gunner has caught 8 different coyotes in the past 2-3 weeks, that were missed by hunters. He got a big pat on the head and the coyote was strung up on the fur pole. That's part of his job, in my book. There were a handful of others that he caught, picked a fight, then came back, looking over his shoulder, trying to decoy them back to us. I would have loved to add them to the fur pole, but it was enjoyable watching him trying to figure out when to decoy and when to not, as a relatively young dog. To have your dog cast out after coyotes, especially at night, and not have the confidence that they can handle themselves in a fighting situation (defensive or offensive) with coyote(s) is suicidal. Around these neck of the woods, a dog wouldn't last very long.

We all use our dogs differently. To say one form of training is wrong and another is right is simply an opinion and nothing more.

Good read.

Tony
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Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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