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#2001920 - 09/20/11 12:07 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: altabonita]
Huntsleepfish Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Edmond, Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: altabonita
Originally Posted By: knockemdown
Tony, I'll be the one to say it, cuz I KNOW that many others are thinking it. So here goes...




Maybe you should have said it in a PM.



ABSOLUTELY! knockemdown, you have done nothing with your post but give the ANTI's your so worried about more fodder. Way to draw a line between hunters, on a PUBLIC forum, if that was your goal nice job. EVERYTHING you say could have (and should have) been posted in a PM. It acomplishes the same thing, you voicing your opinion. Tony didnt post anything illegal, like it or not, you chose to watch it. Tell me, what good comes from what you've started. I swear ,some people...... Maybe the "Houndsmen" needs to be removed and just make the forum Lions & Bears. Whats next, the Trapping forum? No posting pics of animals in traps, it offends the anti's. No posting pics of dead critters, it offends the anti's. Whats the point? Our breathing offends the anti's. You are entitled to you opinion, but sometimes not everyone needs to hear it. Later.
_________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
- President Ronald Reagan.


Semper Fi

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#2001922 - 09/20/11 12:10 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: Workman]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
I respect the opinions of others. I would have no pride in posting a video clip of 3 adult dogs working over a trapped coyote. This was 6 month old pups in training, no adult dog with them. I understand if it wasn't your cup of tea, but how else do you think coyote dogs get trained? If you think killing a coyote has absolutely nothing to do with decoying, then you better start hunting with poodles.

As orrbull48, said, just watch TV or do a search on youtube for hog dogs, if you want to see similar action.

I updated the video with a more appropriate version for the forum.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#2001931 - 09/20/11 12:29 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: TonyTebbe]
ARCOREY Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 4839
Loc: USA
My P.C. has officially become too P.C. lately for me. When is the silly season officially over anyways?

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#2001941 - 09/20/11 12:50 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: ARCOREY]
pahntr760 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 12125
Loc: Here and there
I see no difference in using an adult dog or 6 month old ones. The coyote was tethered. It's not sporting, or respectful to the coyote. Training or not. That's like letting 3 bullies beat up a kid that has been tied up. I just don't see why this is necessary. Especially posted for all of the anti-whom Evers to get ahold of. Then WE (hunters in general) will be the foothold dog and THEY (anti whomever) will be the gang of hounds.

How would you feel if Mr Roosevelt would have shot the tied up bear? Just saying.
_________________________
“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”
- Ronald Reagan

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#2001945 - 09/20/11 12:59 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: pahntr760]
Huntsleepfish Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Edmond, Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: pahntr760
I see no difference in using an adult dog or 6 month old ones. The coyote was tethered. It's not sporting, or respectful to the coyote. Training or not. That's like letting 3 bullies beat up a kid that has been tied up. I just don't see why this is necessary. Especially posted for all of the anti-whom Evers to get ahold of. Then WE (hunters in general) will be the foothold dog and THEY (anti whomever) will be the gang of hounds.

How would you feel if Mr Roosevelt would have shot the tied up bear? Just saying.



I suppose you think coon dogs are trained without a tethered coon, at some point in their training?
_________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
- President Ronald Reagan.


Semper Fi

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#2001951 - 09/20/11 01:07 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: pahntr760]
Workman Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 1592
Loc: Manti, UT
Comparing hunting/killing/torturing coyotes to a kid suffering is ridiculous! Coyotes are vermin, without protection and sanction for that reason. If you don't want this to take place then fine, but complaining about it on a site dedicated to that end is going to get nothing accomplished.

Since you mentioned Teddy Roosevelt, you should know that he coursed (ran) coyotes with greyhounds/staghounds as a sportsman. If the video here bothered you, then you don't want to see a few charged up sighthounds catch and kill a coyote. Our great Conservation leader had no problem with it, since he saw it from a rancher's perspective and didn't have to endure the lovey-dovey PC garbage that we are all spoon fed.
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#2001958 - 09/20/11 01:15 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: getfoxy]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
Ok, lets see here. Honestly, If TT was the only one sharing these type of videos, they yeah, may be wrong. but there was nothing here that couldnt be found millions of times on youtube or hunting videos. If they are looking for it, they will find it.

Sure, lots of dogs will kill a yote. Mine will. But that doesnt mean that a guy cant be proud of a dog when he does, and want to show it off.

As far as yotes in a foot hold trap, i dont do it myself, but i do things pretty close to it. Maybe even worse in some of you guys's oppinion. There may not be a whole lot of what you would call sport in letting dogs kill a traped yote, but trapping that yote to let the dogs kill sure is "sporty"
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2001961 - 09/20/11 01:18 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: Workman]
pahntr760 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 12125
Loc: Here and there
Running game and letting a gang of dogs simply maul a tied up animal are totally different. That like people bragging about huge deer killed in a high fence operation. It's not the same.

What would happen to those pups if that was the neighbors lab on a tie-out chain? I'm most certain they would have been taken and euthanized.

Now if this was a video of his pups latching onto a wounded coyote that was still free to run, if able, that would be different. I just don't see the need for a tethered coyote, bear, cat, coon, or any other animal.

I train bird dogs. I do realize there is a big gap between bird dogs and coyote dog, surly, but it's dog training. Their instincts are what drive them to do what they do. Training is so they (dog) do what WE want them to do. And for the record, i don't condone using folded winged birds or launchers either. It's un necessary.
_________________________
“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”
- Ronald Reagan

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#2001969 - 09/20/11 01:24 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: pahntr760]
Huntsleepfish Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Edmond, Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: pahntr760
What would happen to those pups if that was the neighbors lab on a tie-out chain?


They'd probably sniff butts and wanna play. They aren't wild killers of anything hooked up... good grief. Its TRAINING. Whatever, I'm done with this.


Edited by Huntsleepfish (09/20/11 01:25 PM)
_________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
- President Ronald Reagan.


Semper Fi

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#2001977 - 09/20/11 01:34 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: Huntsleepfish]
Jesse lackey Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 1909
Loc: Michigan. Go Blue
I have seen many bird's winged, fall and flop in the water to be mauled by a lab until the hunter gets it from him, then they stick it in a vest. Different?

Well, i have learned something here. Next time im trying to train a dog, ill just gut shoot it so it cant run far, but still fight back, and then go get the dogs, let them chase it a wile, then when they catch it, they can try to kill it. If it doesnt slip away, and run a few hundred yards more to be faught again.

Get over it, the coyote is dead. This convo. started out as simply not showing what we do publicly to now its wrong to do it in the first place.
_________________________
If our wives were more like our dogs...... There would be a lot more happy men in this world.

"six potato chips all at once? wow, guess he is gonna make a decoy dog!" hahaha just kiddin guys!

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#2001983 - 09/20/11 01:46 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: pahntr760]
altabonita Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 142
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: pahntr760
Here is a good question for you all. Who amount us would tie the leg of one of our dogs off and let 3 coyotes have at it!??!


Who amongst us hunts dogs? I guess you would make the same agrument about dogs and coons or dogs and hogs.

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#2001985 - 09/20/11 01:49 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: pahntr760]
altabonita Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 142
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: pahntr760
Running game and letting a gang of dogs simply maul a tied up animal are totally different. That like people bragging about huge deer killed in a high fence operation. It's not the same.



Off topic, but have you hunted a high fenced ranch before? They are common here in Texas. I can tell you there is not much difference in hunting 10,000 acres high fenced or 10,000 acres low fenced.

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#2002001 - 09/20/11 02:10 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: pahntr760]
Huntsleepfish Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Edmond, Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: pahntr760
Now if this was a video of his pups latching onto a wounded coyote that was still free to run, if able, that would be different.



I guess you're lookin at this from a completly different view. You would send your pup in to fight a wounded coyote, if he's free to run, he can get all over your pup, possibly killing it. All for what OJT?
OR would you rather have your pup gain some experience and confidence, in a somewhat controled enviroment, so when he does have to fight and kill that cripple that ran a half mile, at least he knows what to do. I'll take the latter. When I finally cover that half mile and catch up I'd much rather see my pup standin there, vs him layin there and the yote gone off to die a slow death from the infection you caused by woundin him in the first place.

I agree, 3 adult dogs maulin a trapped yote is not to what anyone wants to see, but TT clearly stated these are 6 month old pups in training. Therefore, everything I said above makes sense. (At least to me)


Edited by Huntsleepfish (09/20/11 02:29 PM)
_________________________
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference.
The Marines don't have that problem."
- President Ronald Reagan.


Semper Fi

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#2002016 - 09/20/11 02:22 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: altabonita]
pahntr760 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 12125
Loc: Here and there
Ok,BA couple of questions or comments to answer.

High Fences are ok, IMHO, for species that would otherwise be evasive or hazardous to the general habitat. IE: hogs or exotics. Not general native (historically) big game. That's where I stand on that.

A bird dog going after a downed bird is the same as a coyote recovery, already said above as views ok, again, IMHO.

These are just my views on this type of "training". At the end of the day, your right, dead coyote, coon, what have you.
_________________________
“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”
- Ronald Reagan

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#2002029 - 09/20/11 02:42 PM Re: Gunner/Mattie pups training (video stills) [Re: Huntsleepfish]
knockemdown Offline
suburban redneck

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 4744
Loc: NY
You guys are exactly right, I could have PM'ed my opinion to Tony.
But I don't apologize for not doing so. The video was here plain as day, so I addressed it as such...

Before posting, I knew full well that I'd prolly catch heck for it. But I also know that there are several others reading along that absolutely WILL NOT post on this topic, yet share the same opinion. I'm just the 'bad guy' for stepping up & airing it out. So be it...

Sure, if you look on youtube, you prolly can find all kinds of wild azzed videos with dogs. But that doesn't make sharing them the RIGHT thing to do. Youtube aside, most dog hunting sites shun those who'd post video of this nature on the public portion of their sites, if not outright pull them. They don't want the attention & I'm not alone in that opinion. Does the saying "flying under the radar" hold any creedence with you guys???

So agree to disagree. If you think it's fine for that to be public, I won't comment any further on that.

Originally Posted By: Tony Tebbe
If you think killing a coyote has absolutely nothing to do with decoying, then you better start hunting with poodles.



I'm glad you brought that up, Tony. I had the pleasure of watching over four straight hours of decoy dog action on video this past weekend. These two indivudual dogs worked alone & were like nothing I have EVER seen! And not ONCE did they put a tooth to a coyote, 'cept in self defense when outnumbered 3 or 4 to one.
When that happened, fur FLEW and those dogs had GRIT in spades! But the amazing part of the footage is that they used their brains to get multiple coyotes within spitball distance of the hunter, time & time again. Stand after stand. Multiple coyotes within FEET of the hunter. And when one got popped, there was no wooling, that dog went out & brought the other coyotes back in again. It was absolutely amazing, and if I hadn't seen it with my very own eyes, I'd be calling BS that it were even possible! Too bad that hunter would never share that stuff here, but I sure feel privileged to have seen it. I sure wish my dog will grow to have 1/10th that savvy. I seriously doubt it, but a guy's gotta dream! And I could give a chit less if he can kill a coyote, cuz that's MY job, the guy with the gun smile Opinions will differ there, too...

Anyway, given the extremely close range and 'gimme' shot opportunities those two extraordinary decoy dogs allowed the hunter, there was little/no need for the dog to 'finish' anything. Not once in all that footage, actually. No messy cleanup, and that is a testament to the hunter performing his duty on the gun. Easy schmeasy shots!

Since you are guiding hunters day & night who may, or may not be, straight shooters, I can see the need for a 'recovery dog'. But don't mistake that with what I perceive to be what decoying coyotes is all about. If I had consistently poor shooters wounding coyotes left & right, then I'd probably want to put more emphasis on breeding that type of dog too. To each, his own. And again, a sidetrack, but only cuz you brought it up...

I realize I won't sway anyone in their opinion. However, the arguement that my shared opinion is somehow ammo for antis is HOGWASH.
I"ve got NO PROBLEM with the content itself.
Again, the problem I have is that it's being shared on a publicly viewable forum.
That IS NOT doing dogmen any kind of service whatsoever.

Doing what's right is usually always right.
And what IS right for you may not be right for others in a similar position.

So then, why not err on the side of discretion & consideration for other dogmen & leave this stuff out of public view? If you want to get your rocks off watching this kinda stuff, then it's already been pointed out that you can surf youtube for it. Or buy a video. But then again, isn't that partly the reason for sharing the video in the 1st place?




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