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#1973713 - 08/10/11 09:01 AM How Many is acceptable????
yfzduner450 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 1584
Loc: West Jordan, Utah
This is a question from another post, I've seen a few guys get run off the board for their breeding practices, so my question to you guys is......How many litters a year is acceptable????
At what point is it more about the money then the dogs?? Does it just depend if the dogs will get hunted or not? Does it depend on "if there is a waiting list"? Would you buy a pup from a guy that say has 10 litters a year compared to 1-2, or does that even affect your decision?? At what point does a "backyard"(no ill meaning) breeder turn into a pup factory?

This is not geared directly at anyone, just some questions that i've got.
_________________________
"Who's smarter, a man that lives life, or one that lives scared?" By Duane@ssu

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#1973767 - 08/10/11 10:48 AM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: yfzduner450]
l2andom Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 75
Loc: WI
I guess if the breeding was planned and characteristics/traits of both dogs were considered for the litter how many ever litters would be okay as long as the dogs/pups weren't living in squalid conditions. Also if the person breeding had good intentions other than money (better working dogs overall, a better nose, grittier, etc) as the end result, then that would be fine. I have met people who culled (like took them out in the woods with a pistol type cull) dogs/pups that did not meet their standards. A lot may find that wrong (I'm still unsure about it myself), but people have more than likely been doing that for hundreds of years to produce the type of dog they want.

Not sure if my response answered anything lol.

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#1973826 - 08/10/11 12:46 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: yfzduner450]
altabonita Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 142
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: yfzduner450
This is a question from another post, I've seen a few guys get run off the board for their breeding practices, so my question to you guys is......How many litters a year is acceptable????


Acceptable to whom? I am not sure it should be of any concern to anyone how many litters someone else has, planned or otherwise. I assume your post was directed toward Tony and I am not sure why.

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#1973856 - 08/10/11 01:46 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: altabonita]
yfzduner450 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 1584
Loc: West Jordan, Utah
Originally Posted By: altabonita

Acceptable to whom?


The general public, I guess i should of changed the wording to "How many is ETHICAL?" My main question is, some people get run off for such practices while it is tolerated by others. I'm trying to determine where the line is drawn. Maybe it has nothing to do with the breeding practices but is more about if you like the person or not. I surely don't think someone should be breeding to every b!tch dog they can find. That to me shows it's more about the money then the quality of dog. That's why it is so hard to find quality bred dogs these days, and i'm not talking just hunting dogs.
_________________________
"Who's smarter, a man that lives life, or one that lives scared?" By Duane@ssu

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#1973867 - 08/10/11 02:12 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: yfzduner450]
l2andom Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 75
Loc: WI
I think if they have the money for the upkeep of the dogs and the quality of dogs produced is there, why not?

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#1973890 - 08/10/11 02:58 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: l2andom]
DoubleCK Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 3485
Loc: Wauneta, NE / Gold Canyon, AZ
There is more than one way it can be, "All about the Money."

In many industries/professions/etc an attempt to directly or indirectly control the supply (of decoy puppies for example) is made so as to create a demand so that others can make more money from their ample supply.

All animals I own are fixed! But to my way of thinking, the amount of puppies one whelps is not really any one else's business.

If left alone capitalism is good for the consumer, and the best providers of goods and services.

I say leave it alone and let'er buck!
_________________________
Don't Go Ridin' on that Long Black Train!

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#1973909 - 08/10/11 03:39 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: yfzduner450]
altabonita Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 142
Loc: Texas
I guess i should of changed the wording to "How many is ETHICAL?"

Whose ethics do we use? Yours, Humane Society, PETA or do we take a vote of PM members?

My main question is, some people get run off for such practices while it is tolerated by others.

How does anyone get “run off” based on how they how they breed their dogs?

I'm trying to determine where the line is drawn. Maybe it has nothing to do with the breeding practices but is more about if you like the person or not.

It appears to be obvious you don’t like the person your original post was directed toward.[/quote]


Edited by altabonita (08/10/11 03:42 PM)

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#1973948 - 08/10/11 04:58 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: altabonita]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
Unless one is deaf, blind, and dumb, they'd know that this post is directed to me. My question back is "Why do YOU care?" Seriously...why do you feel that it's any of your business? Not wanting to come across as a smartazz, but I have no idea why you want to pass judgement on me and what I do.

I don't need to explain myself to anyone, but if you really want to know.....


I've had 4 litters this year, since January. Let's take a look at the pairings.

Gunner x Mattie: Mattie is a hunting pitbull that I selected as a pup a couple of years ago. Her main purpose was to be a brood b!tch to put more grit in my dogs.

Gunner x Dixie: Dixie is my number 2 dog and my number 1 b!tch in the field. Devin made a great cross with her and I want a couple of pups that have the Jagd/Mt Cur/BMC/Catahoula mix to them. They should have the size, grit, and brains I am looking for in foundation stock. I think they'll be top notch for what I do.

Gunner x Lacy: Lacy is a hard b!tch on coyotes. She's 75% Blue Lacy and 25% Mastiff. I'm trying this cross to see if I can get the best traits out of both dogs. This is a backup foundation plan to the Gunner/Dixie crosses.

Gunner x Sadie: Sadie is a nice and petite BMC. Very gritty and has a dang good nose. This cross is to ensure I don't dilute the BMC blood that I have in Gunner.

Now, If pups turn out as I expect them, my plans are GunnerxMattie pups over GunnerxDixie pups to get where I'd like to be with the right mixture of pit/jagd/bmc/mt cur/catahoula. At the same time, I want to take GunnerxLacy pups over GunnerxSadie pups to produce a line that has absolutely no terrier (pit or jagd) in them. From that point, I will make a decision on which way I want to take my foundation stock. If pups don't turn out how I think they should, I'll try something different. Border collie, JRT, Patterdale, and others are being toyed around.

I have simple rules for my dogs here. They must be easy to handle, hunt hard, and kill coyotes. I've culled quite a few this summer that didn't meet all 3 requirements. I don't keep a dog on the place that won't grab and kill a coyote.

Anyhow, I need to get back to work and earn my keep.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#1973994 - 08/10/11 05:58 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: TonyTebbe]
Dead Down Wind Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2639
Loc: Lakewood, Co.
Tony,

Well said!!

I wish i could do what you have done and are doing for the sport, i have learned a lot from your previous posts on PM.

PS - I am looking forward to trying my new TT calls next week in Wyoming:-)

Have a great night!

DDW
_________________________
A great judge of character is how you handle the things that don't benefit you.

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#1974012 - 08/10/11 06:30 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: Dead Down Wind]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
I was mistaken in my previous post. As I was driving to town, I remembered that I did have another litter the other day. An accidental breeding of Gunner to a client's dog. She's a dorn bred dog and doing pretty darn well with coyotes. Who knows, this accident may produce the best pups out of Gunner, yet. I'll keep one to test out. If it turns out good, I'll buy the b!tch off of him.

Just wanted to correct my miscount.

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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#1974116 - 08/10/11 08:41 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: TonyTebbe]
J.W. Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 206
Loc: oklahoma
Acceptable to whom?How about the dog men who have been
CAREFULLY breeding the BEST dogs they could find to make
a better hunting dog!And the dog men that try to put pups
from first time crosses into the hands of guys that are going to hunt the hide off that dog to see if the cross is even worth a [beeep].The guys that are not in it just to make
a quick buck and don't give a [beeep] about the end product.The dog men who love the sport and are in it to try and make the best dog they can.

When people quit caring about trying to cross the best with
the best you end up with a f***ing show dog!!!!!
_________________________
failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently

Henry Ford

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#1974121 - 08/10/11 08:45 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: TonyTebbe]
emeraldterriers1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 697
Loc: kansas
Originally Posted By: TonyTebbe


I have simple rules for my dogs here. They must be easy to handle, hunt hard, and kill coyotes. I've culled quite a few this summer that didn't meet all 3 requirements. I don't keep a dog on the place that won't grab and kill a coyote.



Tony


handle,hunt hard,and kill coyotes...the 1st two understood, the 3rd? do you mean rag on a wounded coyote that you or a client shot or actually run down and catch a fresh coyote and kill it?
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all i can say is WOW

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#1974127 - 08/10/11 08:52 PM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
emeraldterriers1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 697
Loc: kansas
i got off subject... back to the orginal question i don't hunt curs,hounds,birddogs ,ect... i hunt terriers on coons and longdogs on coyotes and i'll be the first to tell anyone new to either sport "there is plenty of puppy peddlers out there" do your homework on prospective pups.
hunt your dogs hard and cull harder...
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all i can say is WOW

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#1974359 - 08/11/11 12:11 AM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: emeraldterriers1]
gonzaga Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4365
Loc: Raton, NM U.S.A.
I think Tony wants them to track and dispatch a wounded coyote...he isn't into the stag hounds anymore, at least I kind of remember him saying that.

That is what I want out of my dog, to help recover a runner.
_________________________
Tighten up your helmet and grab your crayons Turbo.....this could get bumpy....

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#1974386 - 08/11/11 12:45 AM Re: How Many is acceptable???? [Re: gonzaga]
TonyTebbe Offline
Retired PM Staff.

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 18681
Loc: Lovington, NM
You are correct. I want a dog to catch and kill a wounded coyote. I'm not into using my dogs like a pack of hounds. Been there, done that with walker running dogs and greyhounds. But I do expect them to tackle, hold, and kill a wounded one. I can't afford to be chasing a wounded coyote halfway across the country with a client. There were plenty of nights where I had clients injure a coyote, we tracked it down, soon as the flashlight hit it's eyes, it would take off again, back to tracking, then happen again. A couple of times, we were a good 2 miles from the hunting rig. No fun trying to find the rig in the dark. I want a dog to flat tackle and kill an injured coyote. If they are afraid to grab hold of a coyote, I won't mess with them and will cull them.

It's kinda like your terriers. I assume you wouldn't want one that wouldn't grab hold of a coon out of the wall of an abandoned house and kill it, right?

Tony
_________________________
Loving my Kids, Loving my Woman, Loving my Dogs, Loving my Job..........Loving my Life!

Tony Tebbe

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