Bill Springfields Trigger work??
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NdIndy
New member
Ya. A bit of a mixed bag. I got doubling within 10-15 rounds. At first I thought it was just a sensitive trigger and recoil giving quick bump fires, blaming myself basically. But I started pulling and holding the trigger for a few seconds instead of pull/reset. Doing so revealed the rifle wasn't doing a true double or bump as it would fire 1 time with the press. Then it would fire again with the release/reset.
I carried that rifle for years on duty, searching houses buildings etc and never had a single issue with it no matter how many rounds a day went through it in training. Converted it to a coyote gun after I retired, did the trigger to make it group better and ended up with something I won't trust to have a round in it unless my butt is planted on a bench. So break down and I'll get around to fixing it someday. Kind of depressing really.
I carried that rifle for years on duty, searching houses buildings etc and never had a single issue with it no matter how many rounds a day went through it in training. Converted it to a coyote gun after I retired, did the trigger to make it group better and ended up with something I won't trust to have a round in it unless my butt is planted on a bench. So break down and I'll get around to fixing it someday. Kind of depressing really.
NdIndy
New member
FWIW on a total side note, I've had/seen theads about this pulled for fear of the ATF going after the person with the malfunctioning firearm based on that yahoo that went to fed prison. The belief is that he had an AR that malfunctioned and went auto and he got hung for mechanical failure.
HOWEVER, a little research into the case shows that not to be the case. Mr. yahoo (can't remember his name) gave the rifle to a prospective buyer and told him if he moved the safety to a certain position, it would be full auto (select fire). During the search he was found to have all the info, parts etc, and had been spreading the info on how to convert a semi to a full auto rifle. Basically he had been selling select fire guns/parts/and information. And that's what he got hung on, not a failure just finally got caught doing what he wasn't supposed to be doing.
As such, I have no worries discussing true mechanical failures. I was a cop for too long to worry that the ATF is coming for me over something like this
HOWEVER, a little research into the case shows that not to be the case. Mr. yahoo (can't remember his name) gave the rifle to a prospective buyer and told him if he moved the safety to a certain position, it would be full auto (select fire). During the search he was found to have all the info, parts etc, and had been spreading the info on how to convert a semi to a full auto rifle. Basically he had been selling select fire guns/parts/and information. And that's what he got hung on, not a failure just finally got caught doing what he wasn't supposed to be doing.
As such, I have no worries discussing true mechanical failures. I was a cop for too long to worry that the ATF is coming for me over something like this
Jeepdude1987
New member
Just to point something out NdIndy if you had shot that rifle 1000's of times then it may have possibly been worn to, or near to, the point of failure.
I know I have a friend that has a CAR that was shot to the point it was having double fires or even triple fires. I was the lucky friend that it wore out on, and it scared me, but we played with it a bit after it was messing up, and figured out it was a worn trigger sear. It was in consistent in this multi-fire problem as well, and you could get 2,1,1,1,2,3,1,3 just randomly and it surprised both of us. He didn't think it had enough rounds to be completely warn to failure, and he had never had any work done on it.
So, I imagine if I was to have a worn trigger on the verge of dieing out or even prematurely fail, and sent it to Bill Springfield I might think it was his fault.
Not saying it couldn't have been something he did, but it could be something else entirely. Especially if you had regularly been training with it.
I know I have a friend that has a CAR that was shot to the point it was having double fires or even triple fires. I was the lucky friend that it wore out on, and it scared me, but we played with it a bit after it was messing up, and figured out it was a worn trigger sear. It was in consistent in this multi-fire problem as well, and you could get 2,1,1,1,2,3,1,3 just randomly and it surprised both of us. He didn't think it had enough rounds to be completely warn to failure, and he had never had any work done on it.
So, I imagine if I was to have a worn trigger on the verge of dieing out or even prematurely fail, and sent it to Bill Springfield I might think it was his fault.
Not saying it couldn't have been something he did, but it could be something else entirely. Especially if you had regularly been training with it.
204 AR
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: NdIndyYa. A bit of a mixed bag. I got doubling within 10-15 rounds. At first I thought it was just a sensitive trigger and recoil giving quick bump fires, blaming myself basically. But I started pulling and holding the trigger for a few seconds instead of pull/reset. Doing so revealed the rifle wasn't doing a true double or bump as it would fire 1 time with the press. Then it would fire again with the release/reset.
You probably know but what you're describing is a timing issue with the disconnector, and is exactly what I ran into when tuning a mil spec trigger. I think part of the issue of inconsistent results with Bill's triggers is because of differing tolerances from one lower to the next, and one trigger to the next. I modified 3 or 4 gi triggers with a set screw up from the pistol grip to limit sear engagement, and then built up the underside of the front of the trigger to limit overtravel. You also have to file the disconnector to "time" the trigger and disconnector release. Basically you're doing the same things as the JP triggers have you do to install them. One thing I didn't do was grind any on the sear surface, as I didn't want to remove the case hardening.
I had limited success, some worked very well and some would fire on release as you describe, unless you adjusted it to the point where it wasn't very good anymore. The JP trigger I have works very well, because the sear angle is more optimum for a light pull and because the adjustments are easy to tune perfectly to an individual lower.
You probably know but what you're describing is a timing issue with the disconnector, and is exactly what I ran into when tuning a mil spec trigger. I think part of the issue of inconsistent results with Bill's triggers is because of differing tolerances from one lower to the next, and one trigger to the next. I modified 3 or 4 gi triggers with a set screw up from the pistol grip to limit sear engagement, and then built up the underside of the front of the trigger to limit overtravel. You also have to file the disconnector to "time" the trigger and disconnector release. Basically you're doing the same things as the JP triggers have you do to install them. One thing I didn't do was grind any on the sear surface, as I didn't want to remove the case hardening.
I had limited success, some worked very well and some would fire on release as you describe, unless you adjusted it to the point where it wasn't very good anymore. The JP trigger I have works very well, because the sear angle is more optimum for a light pull and because the adjustments are easy to tune perfectly to an individual lower.
NdIndy
New member
Originally Posted By: Jeepdude1987Just to point something out NdIndy if you had shot that rifle 1000's of times then it may have possibly been worn to, or near to, the point of failure.
I know I have a friend that has a CAR that was shot to the point it was having double fires or even triple fires. I was the lucky friend that it wore out on, and it scared me, but we played with it a bit after it was messing up, and figured out it was a worn trigger sear. It was in consistent in this multi-fire problem as well, and you could get 2,1,1,1,2,3,1,3 just randomly and it surprised both of us. He didn't think it had enough rounds to be completely warn to failure, and he had never had any work done on it.
So, I imagine if I was to have a worn trigger on the verge of dieing out or even prematurely fail, and sent it to Bill Springfield I might think it was his fault.
Not saying it couldn't have been something he did, but it could be something else entirely. Especially if you had regularly been training with it.
Ya, always possible the parts are just done. As such I won't usually bad mouth someone because I don't know. I just know on mine it went from 100% to 0% reliable. I would hope that he would be checking tolerance on parts and not working ones that had all the useful life already used or going beyond the case hardened area. With his experience it shouldn't take much to know.
OTOH, and problem is, that it's a recurring theme with doubling after he works a trigger and not just on rifles that have been used as much as mine. All in all it's just a risk someone should be aware of, same as when you have anyone work on a part,especially a trigger.
I know I have a friend that has a CAR that was shot to the point it was having double fires or even triple fires. I was the lucky friend that it wore out on, and it scared me, but we played with it a bit after it was messing up, and figured out it was a worn trigger sear. It was in consistent in this multi-fire problem as well, and you could get 2,1,1,1,2,3,1,3 just randomly and it surprised both of us. He didn't think it had enough rounds to be completely warn to failure, and he had never had any work done on it.
So, I imagine if I was to have a worn trigger on the verge of dieing out or even prematurely fail, and sent it to Bill Springfield I might think it was his fault.
Not saying it couldn't have been something he did, but it could be something else entirely. Especially if you had regularly been training with it.
Ya, always possible the parts are just done. As such I won't usually bad mouth someone because I don't know. I just know on mine it went from 100% to 0% reliable. I would hope that he would be checking tolerance on parts and not working ones that had all the useful life already used or going beyond the case hardened area. With his experience it shouldn't take much to know.
OTOH, and problem is, that it's a recurring theme with doubling after he works a trigger and not just on rifles that have been used as much as mine. All in all it's just a risk someone should be aware of, same as when you have anyone work on a part,especially a trigger.
Evil_Lurker
New member
That "fire on pull and release" is a failure of the secondary sear to transer cleanly. There's excess distance between the disconnector hook and the primary sear. A new disconnector would likely fix it (or you could try peening the hook end of the one you have).
My buddie's did the same thing after he polished his trigger sear, it's a real touchy operation.
If you bought a DPMS FCG, you may find that it's pretty nice right out of the box. They do a pretty decent grinding job on their FC parts.
My buddie's did the same thing after he polished his trigger sear, it's a real touchy operation.
If you bought a DPMS FCG, you may find that it's pretty nice right out of the box. They do a pretty decent grinding job on their FC parts.
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jmontgomery
New member
I've been very happy with my Springfield trigger job. I'd not hesitate to have another one done.
NdIndy
New member
Originally Posted By: Evil_LurkerThat "fire on pull and release" is a failure of the secondary sear to transer cleanly. There's excess distance between the disconnector hook and the primary sear. A new disconnector would likely fix it (or you could try peening the hook end of the one you have).
My buddie's did the same thing after he polished his trigger sear, it's a real touchy operation.
If you bought a DPMS FCG, you may find that it's pretty nice right out of the box. They do a pretty decent grinding job on their FC parts.
Diagram? I'm more familiar with other trigger assy's than the AR, willing to give it a go. What's the worst that can happen?
My buddie's did the same thing after he polished his trigger sear, it's a real touchy operation.
If you bought a DPMS FCG, you may find that it's pretty nice right out of the box. They do a pretty decent grinding job on their FC parts.
Diagram? I'm more familiar with other trigger assy's than the AR, willing to give it a go. What's the worst that can happen?
Evil_Lurker
New member
Originally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: Evil_LurkerThat "fire on pull and release" is a failure of the secondary sear to transer cleanly. There's excess distance between the disconnector hook and the primary sear. A new disconnector would likely fix it (or you could try peening the hook end of the one you have).
My buddie's did the same thing after he polished his trigger sear, it's a real touchy operation.
If you bought a DPMS FCG, you may find that it's pretty nice right out of the box. They do a pretty decent grinding job on their FC parts.
Diagram? I'm more familiar with other trigger assy's than the AR, willing to give it a go. What's the worst that can happen?
Best I can do is tell you to go to Great West gunsmithing and watch his video on the Mini 14 trigger job. He shows you how to set the sear adjustment and repair it if it starts to double.
They're very similar mechanically.
Mini-14 trigger job - high res
If you just want to see what I'm describing, it starts around the 28:00 mark.
My buddie's did the same thing after he polished his trigger sear, it's a real touchy operation.
If you bought a DPMS FCG, you may find that it's pretty nice right out of the box. They do a pretty decent grinding job on their FC parts.
Diagram? I'm more familiar with other trigger assy's than the AR, willing to give it a go. What's the worst that can happen?
Best I can do is tell you to go to Great West gunsmithing and watch his video on the Mini 14 trigger job. He shows you how to set the sear adjustment and repair it if it starts to double.
They're very similar mechanically.
Mini-14 trigger job - high res
If you just want to see what I'm describing, it starts around the 28:00 mark.
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