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#1917089 - 05/12/11 12:29 PM Scopes with turrets??
Trapper Luke Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 590
Loc: UT
Never been around scopes with turrets before but been kinda thinking bout gettin one with them. This might seem like a dumb question but how do you match up your turrets with your gun? Obviously every gun shoots different so you cant just slap a scope with turrets on a gun set the turret at 100 yards zero it and it'll match the balistics of your gun? Can someone explain to me how they work?

Will be going on a Howa Axiom 204 if it matters any.

Thanks,
Luke
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Howa Axiom 204 with 4-16X44 Nikon Monarch
Winchester SX3 Carlson's DC choke-3 1/2" DC "T" loads

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#1917097 - 05/12/11 12:49 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: Trapper Luke]
ARCOREY Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 4808
Loc: USA
If you're referring to BDC or caliber specific turrets, you're correct. You cannot just slap one on and go. It may put you in the ballpark if your caliber is running in their range of velocities, but don't count on it. Exposed target turrets will help you in long range shooting, but only after you do load work and build dope charts. On my AR, I have a 100yd zero with my 50gr. V-max, I have range results that say that my 300yd zero is 24 of my 1/8" clicks up. This was data collected in the field by backing up to 300yds and shooting to verify it. I document the number of clicks it took to get back to bullseye. Once I have my ranges I run them through a ballistics program like JBM and change velocity and Ballistic Coefficients until it matches my chart at the 100yd marks. That'll give me the in between ranges. This is all subject to change based on changes in velocity, range, altitude, shot angle, wind deflection, and scope height to name a few variables.

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#1917112 - 05/12/11 01:15 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: ARCOREY]
OldTurtle Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 18106
Loc: East Central FL
If you know the specifics on the cartridge you will be shooting, you can order turrets to match them for some brands of scopes, but they are only accurate if you maintain those exact specs...any deviation will throw your accuracy off to a degree...

The same holds true to the ballistic reticles in specific scopes.

IMHO, you are better to follow the practice that ARCOREY outlined and spend some actual time at the range with a standard scope turret/reticle and work out the number of clicks for your specific scope at as many different ranges that you can and keep them with the rifle/scope...

That way, you can build a chart for each load you want to use.. A ballistic calculator is a great tool to add to your load development.. while it's not 100% accurate (too many factors involved between anticipated and real), it will certainly get you in the ballpark for accuracy..

I have a couple of .204s and due to the basic trajectories on them, I keep the scopes zero'd at 200 yards...The amount of 'climb' at 100 yards is very slight and with a couple of clicks, shooting at 300 yards is easy, or since my AR has a 4-16x with a mildot reticle, I know where my hold over is on a Prairie Dog, in the event there are several at different distances...
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#1917152 - 05/12/11 02:46 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: OldTurtle]
tt35 Offline
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Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 3950
Loc: E Oregon
ARC and OT are right on. If you go with Leupold, they will make an elevation turret with the yardage marked for a specific set of conditions for a nominal fee. If you are not going extreme in your ranges (over 600, say) they will probably work well for you. That said, I've shot a lot of LR varmints just dialing moa on the turret. It works great just don't assume that your scope is going to track perfectly. The higher dollar scopes are more likely too. But, as Corey pointed out, "prove" it at the range before you get locked into a set BDC turret. Good luck. The sickness begins....
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#1919923 - 05/17/11 06:18 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: tt35]
Trapper Luke Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 590
Loc: UT
Well I've been thinkin bout buying the Vortex Viper PST scope and its got the exposed tactical turrets. The scope also has the MRAD reticle which Im guessing are kinda like a MOA recticle. Now I'm far from an expert on these type things but if you have a reticle that you can use to judge distance, hold over, windage, etc etc. How come you would use turrets as well? Isnt the point of having that reticle so you can make all them adjustmets without having to move your eye away from the scope?

Maybe Im in the wrong here like I said im far from an expert.
_________________________
Howa Axiom 204 with 4-16X44 Nikon Monarch
Winchester SX3 Carlson's DC choke-3 1/2" DC "T" loads

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#1919998 - 05/17/11 07:57 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: Trapper Luke]
ARCOREY Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 4808
Loc: USA
I too am looking at the Viper PST, but in MOA. The advantage to dialing versus hold over using reticle is accuracy. If you need to adjust .3mil or 1/4moa, it's hard to tell if you are exactly there in the scope. You could be .2 mil to .4mil just looking at the reticle. Clicks are positive. On a good scope .1mil click is just that. Holds are much quicker if you're doing tactical shoots or hunting something other than varmints.

My want for the reticle that matches the exposed turrets is for correction. If you see your impact in the reticle, adjust by holding exactly where the last bullet hit and send another quick one down range. 2nd round hits are much easier. I'm also looking at the First Focal plane model so that I can dial and hold together to get the most range out of my rifle. If you get 65moa of travel and your zero is 25 moa from the bottom of the scope, you only get 40moa vertical adjustment. With another 20moa in the scope, you're back to 60moa of verticle from zero and there's no math to do based on the power you use. 1 moa low and dial or hold 1 moa elevation regardless if you're at 6x or 24x thumbup1.

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#1920026 - 05/17/11 08:25 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: ARCOREY]
Trapper Luke Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 590
Loc: UT
Alright so basically what Vortex is trying to do with their Viper PST scopes is make it so you can range your target using your recticle. Then make the adjustments on your exposed turrets. So you can take the shot without having to do any hold(s) over correct?

Another quick question is whats your stand on the MRAD reticle versus the MOA reticle? By the way they make it sound on Vortex website the MRAD is easier to read and use?
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Howa Axiom 204 with 4-16X44 Nikon Monarch
Winchester SX3 Carlson's DC choke-3 1/2" DC "T" loads

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#1920029 - 05/17/11 08:27 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: Trapper Luke]
2muchgun Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 14077
Loc: Michigun
Get the target turrets and and a plain old duplex reticle and learn how to shoot. Forget the gimmicks.........
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#1920093 - 05/17/11 09:45 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: Trapper Luke]
ARCOREY Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 4808
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Trapper Luke
Alright so basically what Vortex is trying to do with their Viper PST scopes is make it so you can range your target using your recticle. Then make the adjustments on your exposed turrets. So you can take the shot without having to do any hold(s) over correct?

Another quick question is whats your stand on the MRAD reticle versus the MOA reticle? By the way they make it sound on Vortex website the MRAD is easier to read and use?


In a sense yes. They are putting a scope out that has reference points in the reticle that actually match a mathematical value as well as the turrets unlike most BDC reticles. A lot of other high end tactical type scopes already do this, just for a lot more $$$. Nightforce is a well known one on here.

Mil versus MOA is a Savage versus Remington debate that will lead a post down 10 pages of arguing to end in personal preference. Both have plenty of positives when matched to the reticle. I'm looking at MOA versus Mil because I don't need to dial elevation fast, I don't shoot with somebody calling out holds to me in Mils at a competition, and I like the smaller increments of .26" versus .36" at 100yds. If you haven't shot with either, then there will be a learning curve with both.

Again, my main want for this scope is for follow ups. Hit two hash marks low left in any increment at any distance, hold two hash marks high right and send another and watch your hit. I've lobbed ammo at chucks from 600yds before and had nothing more to reference than having my scope maxed out and holding about "so" much in a particular quadrant of my plain duplex crosshairs. I had no real reference to go by. If you know that your hit is 12" right and what your click value equates to at that distance, then it is easily done with any reticle and a little math. You can literally sight in a rifle in 2 shots with these type reticles with matched turrets. I like to think of it as turning luck into trigonometry wink.


Edited by ARCOREY (05/17/11 09:47 PM)
Edit Reason: wrong math

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#1920165 - 05/17/11 11:46 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: ARCOREY]
Trapper Luke Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 590
Loc: UT
alright ARCOREY I appericate all your help. Thinkin the best thing for me to do is just to buy one and spend some time at the range. smile
_________________________
Howa Axiom 204 with 4-16X44 Nikon Monarch
Winchester SX3 Carlson's DC choke-3 1/2" DC "T" loads

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#1920386 - 05/18/11 01:00 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: Trapper Luke]
dzlfarmboy Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Maryland
I think Mil/Mil Ret/turrets are very simple once you've tried one. Especially if you shoot with a partner. I run 2 Nightforce Mil/MLR scopes
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#1925008 - 05/27/11 10:51 AM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: dzlfarmboy]
AZ PREDATOR Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/11
Posts: 40
Loc: Arizona
I have the luepold ar scope w/custom turrets. They work great if u stay in the specs u give leupold. Honestly i only use it @the range... When the yote is running in i never have time to range find and spin the turret
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#1925143 - 05/27/11 05:27 PM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: AZ PREDATOR]
skinney Offline
PM Sponsor

Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 2153
Loc: South Dakota
READ... and READ some more... Practice Practice Practice... save your money and get a scope that is worth the $$$ if you plan on using it mid to LR, you need one that tracks perfect, if it doesn't thats just another variable you will need to factor in... save a little xtra $$$ get a good ballistic program, chrono your rounds, tweak your vel. via POI to match your program... the variables you know gravity and spin drift will be an automatic in a good ballistic program... the "non -determinant" variables that you don't know but can get close ie... MV, Wind... control of sights, which should be a deterministic variable but, many people don't practice enough to take human error out of the picture... here is a vid with IMHO the best ballistic program money can buy...
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#1925809 - 05/29/11 12:28 AM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: skinney]
BigKev Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/08/11
Posts: 335
Loc: Texas, USA
Does he have an illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator in that box too?


Edited by BigKev (05/29/11 12:31 AM)
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#1925820 - 05/29/11 12:58 AM Re: Scopes with turrets?? [Re: BigKev]
ninehorses Online
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1687
Loc: Mason,Tx,U.S.A.
What do you expect he's shooting a Armalite smile
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