I read an article some years back that said that if the DOW declared that a "Breeding Population" existed,it would be devastating to the north east.The reason being that all National and State Forest use would have to stop.All logging,mining,oil and gas production...All would stop until an evaluation of just how many were out there.Kind of like what happened to the Willamette Forest in Washington and Oregon when the Spotted Owl thing happened.DOW officers supposedly watch places where road kills are dumped.Young predators scavenge at these places until they get better at hunting.I'd say that if you know where these dumps are,set up your trail camera.Probably the best spot to film one.
Eastern Cougar
- Thread starter smilinIB
- Start date
waterweasle
Member
where in michagan was this cougar killed? was it the one shot after it charged an wildlife officer after being hit by a car?
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ARCOREY
New member
If they don't exist and aren't endangered, then we the hunters can kill them without liability and cover their butts for restocking them and trying to play mother nature when they get out of control. Cats aren't the only ones, red wolves just don't migrate into Virginia without any reports of them within 3 states any direction unless transplanted to kill the coyotes. I've seen and heard too much to believe otherwise. I see a wolf in VA and it will die in self defense, plain and simple. First hand experience, a 75lb black cat can make you change your shorts when you meet them face to face in the woods. Lucky for him I had a bow and was crawling hands and knees. Otherwise, he might have died while attacking me
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erict
Member
Originally Posted By: jbmasterDOW officers supposedly watch places where road kills are dumped.Young predators scavenge at these places until they get better at hunting.I'd say that if you know where these dumps are,set up your trail camera.Probably the best spot to film one.
Cougars, in general, do not eat carrion, though they will return to one of their own cached kills several times. If I lived in an area where they are fairly common I would set my camera up overlooking an spot "baited" with a long-lasting, cougar specific scent attractant - much the same as if a trapper would set up to trap one.
Cougars, in general, do not eat carrion, though they will return to one of their own cached kills several times. If I lived in an area where they are fairly common I would set my camera up overlooking an spot "baited" with a long-lasting, cougar specific scent attractant - much the same as if a trapper would set up to trap one.
GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: jbmaster I read an article some years back that said that if the DOW declared that a "Breeding Population" existed,it would be devastating to the north east.The reason being that all National and State Forest use would have to stop.All logging,mining,oil and gas production...All would stop until an evaluation of just how many were out there.Kind of like what happened to the Willamette Forest in Washington and Oregon when the Spotted Owl thing happened.DOW officers supposedly watch places where road kills are dumped.Young predators scavenge at these places until they get better at hunting.I'd say that if you know where these dumps are,set up your trail camera.Probably the best spot to film one.
None of this happened in Missouri. Since 1995 we have had fifteen confirmed wild mountain lions in the state. These all met a very demanding set of circumstances in order to meet the criteria to be listed as a confirmed wild mountain lion. So while there are hundreds of other sightings and reports, these fifteen are no doubt cases of wild mountain lions here. Missouri simply adopted a policy that lions were not a suitable species in modern day Missouri and not compatible with our management goals for wildlife in this state. Lions are protected by law unless endangering stock or a human life, but otherwise there would be no money or management effort spent on furthering the lion population within the state. Basically if lions are going to make it here, they'll have to do it on their own. Why can't other states adopt a similar policy? Pretty simple really.
None of this happened in Missouri. Since 1995 we have had fifteen confirmed wild mountain lions in the state. These all met a very demanding set of circumstances in order to meet the criteria to be listed as a confirmed wild mountain lion. So while there are hundreds of other sightings and reports, these fifteen are no doubt cases of wild mountain lions here. Missouri simply adopted a policy that lions were not a suitable species in modern day Missouri and not compatible with our management goals for wildlife in this state. Lions are protected by law unless endangering stock or a human life, but otherwise there would be no money or management effort spent on furthering the lion population within the state. Basically if lions are going to make it here, they'll have to do it on their own. Why can't other states adopt a similar policy? Pretty simple really.
Were any of them mothers with cubs?Or cubs on there own?Fifteen sightings could easily be 'written off' as pets that were released.There were confirmed sightings in the north east also,but no evidence of a breeding population.I have to talk to my girlfriends sister and see if she will let me put her video on this site.She has about two minutes of footage of a big cat in her yard.I saw a still photo out of this film.It looks too big to be a bobcat.Plus,up on the hill above their house,I saw a track in the mud that I took a picture of.I can post that and see what some experts think.
Ed Kurzawa SR
New member
Originally Posted By: waterweaslewhere in michagan was this cougar killed? was it the one shot after it charged an wildlife officer after being hit by a car? The story about a wildlife officer being charged after cat being hit buy a car story has been told a thousand times on other hunting and gun boards . The only thing in the same story that changes is the state the posters live in . I have read it a dozen times myself . The cat killed here was said to be a younger Tom struck by a car in the dark . Driver did not know what he hit and got out to check and dicovered the cat . Called the local authorities and they in turn contacted DNR . DNR did their testing and made their determination on DNA findings . The southwest counties in Michigan are for the most part rural farmland with lots of thick woodland cover and the largest deer population in the state . Could a cat hang out there ? Yes . Plus there had been previous reported sightings prior in the area . A lot of political red tape comes into place if you admit a protected species exists in a given state not to the states advantage all of the time .
GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: jbmaster Were any of them mothers with cubs?Or cubs on there own?Fifteen sightings could easily be 'written off' as pets that were released.There were confirmed sightings in the north east also,but no evidence of a breeding population.I have to talk to my girlfriends sister and see if she will let me put her video on this site.She has about two minutes of footage of a big cat in her yard.I saw a still photo out of this film.It looks too big to be a bobcat.Plus,up on the hill above their house,I saw a track in the mud that I took a picture of.I can post that and see what some experts think.
I assure you these were not easily written off as anything. DNA testing and other stringent methods were used to determine they were wild strain 100% authentic real deal mountain lions - not escaped/released pets. These are not all just sightings, probably half those involve a dead mountain lion from one cause or another. Two have been shot just this past winter; supposedly in self defense though I think both cases are highly questionable. Others were struck by vehicles and recovered. The other confirmed sightings are crystal clear video, ect. Many sightings don't gain the stamp of credibility for one reason or another. The MDC doesn't mess around with this. From what I gather there were two or three females and the rest were males.
I assure you these were not easily written off as anything. DNA testing and other stringent methods were used to determine they were wild strain 100% authentic real deal mountain lions - not escaped/released pets. These are not all just sightings, probably half those involve a dead mountain lion from one cause or another. Two have been shot just this past winter; supposedly in self defense though I think both cases are highly questionable. Others were struck by vehicles and recovered. The other confirmed sightings are crystal clear video, ect. Many sightings don't gain the stamp of credibility for one reason or another. The MDC doesn't mess around with this. From what I gather there were two or three females and the rest were males.
Rocky1
New member
Originally Posted By: waterweaslewhy wouldnt the admit it??? lets see, if they admitted it they could probably get funding to study it, protect it....................dont admit it, theres no money to study it..........since it doesent exist there...........and think if something happens like an attack and it comes out that the state was "hiding" the fact that ther were there..........thats just reeking of lawsuits
But I know, your cousins brothers great uncle talked to an unnamed conservation officer that said they are there
And, if they had stocked them and it was found out, the lawsuits would read wreckless endangerment, negligence, etc... Therefore they stock them under the radar, deny their existence until there is a substantiated breeding population, then say, "Oh they must have migrated here."
But I know, your cousins brothers great uncle talked to an unnamed conservation officer that said they are there
And, if they had stocked them and it was found out, the lawsuits would read wreckless endangerment, negligence, etc... Therefore they stock them under the radar, deny their existence until there is a substantiated breeding population, then say, "Oh they must have migrated here."
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Rocky1
New member
Originally Posted By: Ed Kurzawa SR A lot of political red tape comes into place if you admit a protected species exists in a given state not to the states advantage all of the time .
I would imagine that amongst that red tape might be a few additional hurdles to overcome in their restocking efforts, if a remnant "endangered" sub-species population exists. If they declare the sub-species population extinct, they can reintroduce at will, and at far less cost.
And, since the tree huggers' goal is to have them restocked in our backyards, they really don't care if the subspecies is pure.
I would imagine that amongst that red tape might be a few additional hurdles to overcome in their restocking efforts, if a remnant "endangered" sub-species population exists. If they declare the sub-species population extinct, they can reintroduce at will, and at far less cost.
And, since the tree huggers' goal is to have them restocked in our backyards, they really don't care if the subspecies is pure.
waterweasle
Member
and what exactly would the reasoning be behind reintroduction???
ARCOREY
New member
Originally Posted By: Rocky1Originally Posted By: waterweaslewhy wouldnt the admit it??? lets see, if they admitted it they could probably get funding to study it, protect it....................dont admit it, theres no money to study it..........since it doesent exist there...........and think if something happens like an attack and it comes out that the state was "hiding" the fact that ther were there..........thats just reeking of lawsuits
But I know, your cousins brothers great uncle talked to an unnamed conservation officer that said they are there
And, if they had stocked them and it was found out, the lawsuits would read wreckless endangerment, negligence, etc... Therefore they stock them under the radar, deny their existence until there is a substantiated breeding population, then say, "Oh they must have migrated here."
Ding, ding, winner, winner.
Originally Posted By: waterweasleand what exactly would the reasoning be behind reintroduction???
Likely to clean up another problem. Coyotes to control deer, wolves to control coyotes. Re-introduction is almost always a bad idea. Nature can take care of itself with proper game management through responsible hunting regulations. I don't want elk and mule deer and antelope in Virginia, there is not enough browse and open areas for the deer population, why bring another animal in that can dominate the food sources. Then they'll need wolves to keep the population in check, then the turkey and deer population will get hit because the wolves don't know they're only supposed to eat elk, then the whole thing needs to be cleaned up by hunters and trappers again. If animals can't survive in an area and haven't migrated to that area, there is probably a natural reason for it. Humans need to accept the fact that we co-inhabit the world, not create it. If you want to see elk and you live on the east coast, turn on the TV, go to the zoo, or get a plane ticket to a Western state that has them living wild on their own.
But I know, your cousins brothers great uncle talked to an unnamed conservation officer that said they are there
And, if they had stocked them and it was found out, the lawsuits would read wreckless endangerment, negligence, etc... Therefore they stock them under the radar, deny their existence until there is a substantiated breeding population, then say, "Oh they must have migrated here."
Ding, ding, winner, winner.
Originally Posted By: waterweasleand what exactly would the reasoning be behind reintroduction???
Likely to clean up another problem. Coyotes to control deer, wolves to control coyotes. Re-introduction is almost always a bad idea. Nature can take care of itself with proper game management through responsible hunting regulations. I don't want elk and mule deer and antelope in Virginia, there is not enough browse and open areas for the deer population, why bring another animal in that can dominate the food sources. Then they'll need wolves to keep the population in check, then the turkey and deer population will get hit because the wolves don't know they're only supposed to eat elk, then the whole thing needs to be cleaned up by hunters and trappers again. If animals can't survive in an area and haven't migrated to that area, there is probably a natural reason for it. Humans need to accept the fact that we co-inhabit the world, not create it. If you want to see elk and you live on the east coast, turn on the TV, go to the zoo, or get a plane ticket to a Western state that has them living wild on their own.
Rocky1
New member
Originally Posted By: waterweasleand what exactly would the reasoning be behind reintroduction???
We aren't exactly sure, since no one will admit restocking them.
From a tree hugger perspective, they used to be here, therefore it is only right that they should be here now to have a harmonious ecological balance in nature.
Tyrannasaurus Rex used to be here too! Not sure I want one of them in the backyard either. The problem with the harmonious ecological balance in nature is, we weren't here when they were.
We aren't exactly sure, since no one will admit restocking them.
From a tree hugger perspective, they used to be here, therefore it is only right that they should be here now to have a harmonious ecological balance in nature.
Tyrannasaurus Rex used to be here too! Not sure I want one of them in the backyard either. The problem with the harmonious ecological balance in nature is, we weren't here when they were.
ARCOREY
New member
Lots of animals wouldn't fit back in the environment where they use to roam. I'm sure wolves and lots of big game animals once inhabited Central Park NY, but I know that wouldn't go well now. Humans have destroyed their habitat and changed it from what it was. The introduction of barbed wire fence and the interstate highway system make it tough for many of the roaming herd animals to exist here in the east. Re-introduction of a species means making sure they can maintain their food source and habitat without foresaking other species. With graze animals that may be as simple as setting aside a grassland or marsh for water fowl, so long as they don't deplete the food source for some species already there. Neither of these animals is going to eat your kids or cats if they run out of food either. Predators are a whole different story. They don't follow the rules and they go where they can get a viable food source. If it is your chicken coop or a wild rabbit den, no matter to them. If they want to be here and are sustainable, they will find their way. Kudzoo was brought here from over seas to fight erosion, now it swallows sections of forest and homes and chokes out everything living, another example of messing with mother nature. As a whole we'll never learn to live and let live rather than try to play a higher power. No matter what we do, there will be an ecological reaction.
waterweasle
Member
theres already an entirely different kind of animal in central park
Rocky1
New member
Originally Posted By: jbmaster I don't know why anyone would think that reintroduction is a bad idea.Introducing a species not native to an area,yes,bad idea.But reintroducing a species has a fantastic history of success.Pennsylvania wouldn't have a deer population without it.
You obviously have not discussed the topic of Wolf Reintroduction with any Western Ranchers, or Western Hunters, or Citizens of several Western States.
And, oddly enough the biologist that fully supported the reintroduction of problem cougars from Texas in our backyard here in North Florida, thought very little of my brother's suggestion of reintroducing a few large cottonmouth moccasins in her backyard. Seems she thought it was great to burden us with reintroduction of panthers "because they used to exist here", but she felt the reintroduction lines shouldn't be drawn in her backyard for some reason, although water moccasins were quite common there prior to development of the area in which she lived. For that matter, so were the cougars they were turning loose up here in our backyard, but she didn't want to turn them loose on the outskirts of Gainesville for some reason.
You obviously have not discussed the topic of Wolf Reintroduction with any Western Ranchers, or Western Hunters, or Citizens of several Western States.
And, oddly enough the biologist that fully supported the reintroduction of problem cougars from Texas in our backyard here in North Florida, thought very little of my brother's suggestion of reintroducing a few large cottonmouth moccasins in her backyard. Seems she thought it was great to burden us with reintroduction of panthers "because they used to exist here", but she felt the reintroduction lines shouldn't be drawn in her backyard for some reason, although water moccasins were quite common there prior to development of the area in which she lived. For that matter, so were the cougars they were turning loose up here in our backyard, but she didn't want to turn them loose on the outskirts of Gainesville for some reason.
Well,no,I haven't talked to a rancher or hunter.If I did,would they tell me that an unhealthy wolf pack is living there?Would they tell me that the deer and elk are on the brink of extinction because of wolves?Or is it more like the wolves are doing too well,and are taking game that belongs to hunters.Maybe that was a big mistake,but the reality here is that we would not have much game to hunt if there were no intervention by the game dept.We now have deer,turkey, pheasant,bobcat elk,fishers and otters.All of which we would not have without reintroduction.Except the pheasant,which is not native to this country,although hunters don't seem to mind it encroaching on our grain supply.All of this is here,in Pa.I really can't say what problems have occurred in other parts of the country,but we did start this thread on Eastern cougar.I can see no evidence on this forum that makes me believe they are here,let alone that they have been stalked by the Game Commission.