17 hmr for fox?

Originally Posted By: jj1980Fun to shoot, not my first choice for killing! Seen some well placed shots work and some good shots not work. If you reload load down some .223 and use a less "explosive" bullet if your worried about a fur friendly round.

My 2 cents, which doesn't mean much!

This reminded me of one of my hunts, nothing personal toward you at all jj1980.

I actually tried this with my combo gun shooting Blue Dot and Berger 30gr. MEF hollow points in 223. I called a little grey in and had what I thought was a head on chest shot. Squeezed off the round, he thrashed and ran. Only runner fox I've ever had. I found him about 2 hours later laying in the mouth of the den about 75yds from where I shot him. I caught the reflection of his eyes in the light while I was looking for him in a ditch about ready to give up. The shot turned out to be a quartering to shot entering behind the shoulder and exiting infront of the opposite rear leg. I had no idea he was quartered, must have missed that in the excitement. Mostly guts, no bullet expansion or hide damage resulting in no blood trail. I failed first by missing my shot by about 2" even though it wasn't a chip shot and secondly by using a bullet too solid for my intended game. I have since switched to the Barnes Varmint Grenades hoping for expansion just under the hide with no penetration. Unfortunately I haven't found a willing test subject yet. I can't say the 223 is inadequate for fox because of this, but I can say that the 30gr. MEF is probably not a good choice of bullet for the task, even though I probably would have killed the fox easily with a heart or brain shot. You can lose a fox with any caliber, a grazing shot with a 50 BMG will pluck hair and leave a fox with a reverse mohawk, even though it is more than adequate for the task
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. You have to try things for yourself, and if it isn't working for you, then switch. Just make sure you don't wrecklessly go after fox with something like a Red Ryder BB gun
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. 17HMR's, 22LR's, 22 mags, and 223 obviously work for many on here. Pick one and try it, just make sure you can be accurate with it first.
 
Originally Posted By: RePeteOriginally Posted By: davejohnson3 a lot of guys around here use the 17 for fox and i was just trying to get some more opinions. after trapping several fox and interacting close with them i have little doubt that a 17 wouldnt be enough for them.

Soooo,,,, you had already done your research and pretty much had your mind made up before you asked the question, but asked it anyway just to see the fur fly?

Very well done!!!
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I was going to stay out of this until you said that. That was the very first thing I thought as well. I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


Chupa
 
Quote:I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


What 'agenda'? The guys is just looking for some verification of his initial thoughts on the matter.

If you don't think the HMR will reliably kill foxes out to 150-200 yards, I'll have to conclude that you've never tried it.

They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.
 
Originally Posted By: 64kodiak The hmr has more energy at 150 yards than a 22lr does at the muzzle. MILLIONS of animals in traps have been dispatched cleanly with a .22lr....many of them by me. I can assure you, shooting a coon at point blank range will result in a very dead coon, so it stands to reason an HMR will do the same at short ranges.



I shot a called coyote last week at 75 yards with my HMR. Shot him behind the shoulder as he was broadside. He ran about 5-10 yards, started spinning, and died in about 5 seconds. Not a big coyote, probably 30# or so. Anecdotal evidence, you bet.



I just love these "animal in a trap dies from a .22 so anything must be ok" post. I suppose that since many many coon, in traps and trees, have died on the spot from a .22 short that a .22 short must be ok for coon and fox callin? Lot's of cattle are slain with .22 rimfires too so that must mean a HMR is ok for elk hunting too? Called critters are not stuck in traps or trees. They are moving before the shot and can and will run after being shot. You can't take 30 seconds to steady yourself and aim, things happen fast. I'm not saying the HMR isn't enough for fox, the truth is I just don't know. But comparing killing a called, free rangeing fox for to shooting a fox in a trap is a bad example.

As for the "I shot a fox in the chest, it ran off and I found no blood" posts........sounds like a miss to me. Don't worry, happen to all of us.

CB
 
Quote:But comparing killing a called, free rangeing fox for to shooting a fox in a trap is a bad example.


Nonsense. Either the shot is there or it isnt. You wanna fling lead for fox be my guest, I'd suggest a .308 AR.
 
I've successfully taken a handful of foxes with the 17gr Vmax, longest shot was 155 yards DRT, closest 30 yards front gut shot blew out the belly n guts. Almost all are DRT. Never lost a fox with the 17gr Vmax.

Last month I tried the Hornady 20gr XTP soft points. I had two greys come in on the same stand at night. Hit the first one perfect broadside and heard the impact. Fox went down, wiggled, crawled off ten feet into thick brush. Hit the second one quartered away slightly. Heard the impact, he flopped over, then got up a few seconds later and took off into thick brush.

Both shots were 85-90 yards. The first shot was "perfect" broadside, found a good blood trail but lost it 25 yards into the brush. Second shot I'm not sure about since it was now or never but I know I hit him. No blood trail at all. Went back in the day and could not find either one.

So after many successful kills with the 17gr Vmax, and then loosing the first two foxes with the 20gr XTP, I will never use the XTP's again. I suspect they zip right thru with minimal expansion. I hunt in super thick brush so anything that runs more than a few yards might not be revovered. The DRT capability of the 17gr Vmax rules in my opinion.

I'd try the TNT's but accuracy sucks in my gun. Vmax's are the most accurate.
 
Originally Posted By: 64kodiak Quote:I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


What 'agenda'? The guys is just looking for some verification of his initial thoughts on the matter.

If you don't think the HMR will reliably kill foxes out to 150-200 yards, I'll have to conclude that you've never tried it.

They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.

Once again, defense mechanism takes precedent over fact.

I did NOT say that the hummer was ill suited for fox. I have said many times that I think the HMR is a viable fox round. Not %100 sure of 200yds, but I have not taken a shot on a fox at that range either, few foxes around me.

The problem I have is that ".17HMR" has become a buzzword around here and always seems to stir the pot regardless of it's use or intended purpose. The OP said that he had done his research on the matter, but asked again anyway, knowing full well that a "Hula-Baloo" would ensue. That is the agenda I refer to. The consensus on "Is the .17HMR enough gun for COYOTES ?" is well documented here and is open for all to see, so what is the next pot stirring question going to be? FOX? Raging Hamster? It doesn't matter what the target is, it will always be contraversial, and the OP knew this.

Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post. Anything derived from my post that was not expressly written out is on you and your defense of your weapon. In this case, I did NOT say/imply anything untoward of the chambering, that was your assumption.

Stop digging before you can't climb out.


Chupa
 
Originally Posted By: 64kodiak

They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.


By the way, I like %90 of the hunting population in North America have no use/demands for the "Super Short Ultra Whizzer Double Belted Magnums". The largest caliber I own is a .30-06 and it will kill anything I point it at here. I see atleast 10 .300Mags at the range on a daily basis here in Texas. What deer here in Texas requires a .300Mag? It makes me laugh. You want to go hunting overseas? Ok, now you have an argument, otherwise it's chest thumping or ignorance.
 
Originally Posted By: Chris_Brice
64kodiak said:
As for the "I shot a fox in the chest, it ran off and I found no blood" posts........sounds like a miss to me. Don't worry, happen to all of us.

CB

Go back and read. I said I found little blood. I did find blood. Clearly it was a hit. Thanks anyway
 
Quote:Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post.

You inferred the OP had an agenda, I did the same thing to you. The difference is what exactly? Rhetorical.
 
If the opportunity presented itself to me to kill a fox while hunting with MY 17 HMR and 20 grain bullets and it was with in about 100 to 125 Yds I would shoot to kill.

What I would like to know what is the percentage of Coyotes, Bobcats, Foxes that you have shot that were BANG/flop or DRT... no matter what caliber you were using.
That never spun or ran any where at all. I bet you a dollar to a hole in a doughnut your percentages are very low.

Even on the DVD's I have of predator hunting ( which I have a lot of ) there are not that many BANG / Flop or DRT.

DAB
 
Originally Posted By: 64kodiak Quote:Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post.

You inferred the OP had an agenda, I did the same thing to you. The difference is what exactly? Rhetorical.


Any time you ask "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" around here, you know full well you are about to stir up a sh!t storm. You may not know this, because you have been here for the length of a cup of coffee.


Chupa
 
Quote:Any time you ask "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" around here, you know full well you are about to stir up a sh!t storm.

I've lurked on these forums for 10 years and have been calling fox for 30 years so yes I know exactly where you're coming from. But the "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" question is still a valid one AND alot of people are newcomers to the sport.

Personally I see alot of oldtimers knee-jerking their answers when it comes to all rimfires. How many of those guys REALLY believe it takes a .223 to kill a 10# critter? That notion is ridiculous IMO and needs further discussion.
 
Originally Posted By: 64kodiak Quote:Any time you ask "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" around here, you know full well you are about to stir up a sh!t storm.



Personally I see alot of oldtimers knee-jerking their answers when it comes to all rimfires. How many of those guys REALLY believe it takes a .223 to kill a 10# critter? That notion is ridiculous IMO and needs further discussion.


Now we are getting closer to understanding each other. I don't believe the blanket statement of the hummer being ONLY good for varmints. I have even gone so far as to say that in the proper hands it is capable of out doing it's original intents, the key word however is "In the right hands".

When someone says (paraphrasing)"I have done the research, and know the popular consensus, but want to ask anyway". This lends me to think that they want to kick the hornets nest and watch as others deal with it. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But I bet someone is having a nice laugh as we set here and point fingers.


Chupa
 
Quote:This lends me to think that they want to kick the hornets nest and watch as others deal with it.

Maybe he did...lol. It's always fun to argue online. I've done it on the archery forums for years! lol

My position is that in farm country shots of 100 yards and in are the norm. 22 mags and 17 HMRs will take down anything that comes in at those ranges. Also, hunting at night in many states requires rimfires or shotguns.

I love both the 22 mag and the 17 HMR. Given the choice I'd take a 17 HMR. Sometimes in populated areas the muzzle blast of a centerfire can cause some concern from the locals, so a rimfire is more appropriate in certain circumstances.

OF COURSE the centerfires are more lethal, most everyone knows that, and I do I love my .17 REM . However, rimfires can and do effectively take thousands of predators a year. That's all I'm trying to say.
 
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Originally Posted By: 64kodiak Quote:This lends me to think that they want to kick the hornets nest and watch as others deal with it.



OF COURSE the centerfires are more lethal, most everyone knows that, and I do I love my .17 REM . However, rimfires can and do effectively take thousands of predators a year. That's all I'm trying to say.

No argument here on that. Every chambering has it's limitations, I think if a caller/hunter has the skills to put himself in a situation to take game within the limitations, it will certainly work. I have never said any different than that, although some would think otherwise. For instance, MY calling skills make the HMR a VERY limiting chambering for me, but for a guy like Tony Tebbe.....it probably wouldn't even be a mild annoyance for him. Maybe I don't always translate my thought into text as best as I should, but on this topic people seem to mis-interpret what I'm saying often, when in reality my views probably aren't much different than theirs. Would I recommend an HMR for a beginning caller? Nope. The limiting nature of the round coupled with inexperience may turn them off completely to the sport if their success isn't of the percentage that they feel is acceptable.


Chupa
 
Originally Posted By: ChupathingyOriginally Posted By: 64kodiak Quote:I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


What 'agenda'? The guys is just looking for some verification of his initial thoughts on the matter.

If you don't think the HMR will reliably kill foxes out to 150-200 yards, I'll have to conclude that you've never tried it.

They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.

Once again, defense mechanism takes precedent over fact.

I did NOT say that the hummer was ill suited for fox. I have said many times that I think the HMR is a viable fox round. Not %100 sure of 200yds, but I have not taken a shot on a fox at that range either, few foxes around me.

The problem I have is that ".17HMR" has become a buzzword around here and always seems to stir the pot regardless of it's use or intended purpose. The OP said that he had done his research on the matter, but asked again anyway, knowing full well that a "Hula-Baloo" would ensue. That is the agenda I refer to. The consensus on "Is the .17HMR enough gun for COYOTES ?" is well documented here and is open for all to see, so what is the next pot stirring question going to be? FOX? Raging Hamster? It doesn't matter what the target is, it will always be contraversial, and the OP knew this.

Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post. Anything derived from my post that was not expressly written out is on you and your defense of your weapon. In this case, I did NOT say/imply anything untoward of the chambering, that was your assumption.

Stop digging before you can't climb out.


Chupa

how about you stop pretending you know me or my intentions to then? i did some research, yes, and what i found was only a handful of testimonials, i figured i would come on to a reputable forum such as this and try to get a broader spectrum of answers from people with actual experience. no, i am not driving some "secret agenda" what could my agenda possibly be? i just wanted to know if people have killed FOX (not yotes, as you say i will eventually ask next
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) i dont plan on using it for yotes. i think the proof is in the pudding, the guys who use it (17) have gotten a lot of fox, and it seems the guys that bash it have only taken maybe one shot (and probably a bad one) at a fox, not found it, and then say it is never good.

back to topic, i have continued research and i think that the reason people have "runners" with the 20 grain is because it doesnt expand much in the animal like the 17 grain does. i am going to use it wether people like it or not now, as i am confident it will do the job.
 
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