Fred Eichlers Response to FMJ

Do not take this as a personal attack.Truth is,I read alot of stuff on this forum that gets twisted into a negative discussion.I hate typing, or I'd respond more.But on this topic alone,lets say you are a 17 year old kid that comes from a non-hunting family.You want to learn about hunting and are real eager. You see this site and log on.You start to read and find that if you use the wrong bullets,your animal will be ruined.On the other side is that you will possibly wound the animal which will run away never to be recovered.Reading on you find that your bullet may riccochete and kill someone!Oh but hold on.This bullet never riccochetes.Then on another topic,he finds that he cannot hope to draw a tag for a deer or antelope because he has no preference points.On another topic, farmers are killing all the deer and there will not be any to hunt.This crap is all on this site and while may be worth talking about.can be a little misleading.You can draw a tag with no points.You can find huntable populations of deer or antelope,and your bullet may riccochete.That's the reality.This is the truth.I just think we can all be more positive.The topics on this forum that get the most hits seem to be the arguments.I don't respond to a lot of topics because they say it right,and are good advice.This one got out of control.And while I am not an expert,nor do I know what kind of vegetation you hunt in,You can not possibly know that your bullets never riccochete.Just saying.
 
Welcome fred, post pics of texas and a big kitty too
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Welcome to the board Fred. I agree the thread's gotten a little out of hand...

I too have used FMJs on varmints (skunks in particular)... the FMJ definitely did not kill it... on the first two shots. The skunk later died, stinking to high heaven. A recovery of the skull some time later showed one complete pass through of a hole the size of the .224 bullet used to shoot it... After the skunk was shot, and not recovered, an inspection confirmed that a 55gr FMJ was used to shoot this animal. Had it been my 40 or 55gr VMax, I know for certain the animal would have died immediately.

I disagree with many here that use them consistently and for the sole purpose of "fur preservation"... I've had many coons and other varmints that were not fur-bearers (for purpose of the TPWD guidelines in Texas) that had only the one entrance hole, and shot with distances less than 75yards. No exits... anything I've shot with a FMJ, has had exits out to 200 yards. The consistency there does not lie. Not that it's MY consistency, but the fact of the matter is Military and Civilian tests have proved this consistency. The FMJs do not act like they're exploding on impact... Unless of course you're blowing through bones, which it will act accordingly.

I will say this... Your candor and honesty is commended. I still believe that the best bullet is the one that operates as it's intended, and puts the animal down ethically and quickly (which in some ways, that's instantly)... If that means an exit hole slightly larger than the bullet entrance, so be it. If it means no exit, even better. I prefer DRT, but like has been mentioned time and time again, that's not going to happen all the time either.

I may be a newbie in terms of predator calling and hunting, but shooting I am not. I hope that the whole thread will be a lesson to all of us that are quick to judge someone for posting a video or a discussion on their preferred methods: not all of us have the same methods... otherwise it wouldn't be called hunting, and it wouldn't be a sport. We all must find a medium to express our opinions without jumping down one another's throat for being unethical or stupid for shooting a certain cartridge over another on animals, either for sport or for financial gain (fur trading in particular). I hope to learn out of this that my tests of bullets, powders, and calibers in general will lead to more meat on the table or in the freezer, and more pelts in the shed waiting to be sold. I don't care how they got there, just as long as the relationship of me as the bondservant of Jesus and the keeper of land as He has allowed me to be, and the Maker are satisfied with the results, I am tickled pink!

Happy hunting everyone. And happy Thanksgiving Fred and family (as well as the rest of the PM family)...

B
 
Welcome aboard Fred!!!!

I gotta admit, you joining and offering up an explanation caught me off guard. Typically a man of your stature in a respected field wouldn't have explained himself in much more serious situations, and that means something to me. While I may not agree with what happened, I do think very highly of you coming here and giving us the whats what.

Look forward to many posts from you.

Ok, butt kissin's over.


Chupa
 
Welcome to Predator Masters Fred!!

We are all about discussion of what's "best" and trying to educate newcomers, but if it's legal for hunting, don't bash it guys.

Having said that, if you are worried about damaging fur...trap. You won't have any worries about the size of the holes.

Edit: Check out our annual hunt/convention Fred, I'll bet there are a bunch of fans here who would love to see you in Las Cruces in Feb!!
 
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Originally Posted By: nmleonWelcome to Predator Masters Fred!!

We are all about discussion of what's "best" and trying to educate newcomers, but if it's legal for hunting, don't bash it guys.

Having said that, if you are worried about damaging fur...trap. You won't have any worries about the size of the holes.

Edit: Check out our annual hunt/convention Fred, I'll bet there are a bunch of fans here who would love to see you in Las Cruces in Feb!!


Maybe I'm out of line or over stepping my bounds, But I think that would make for a great episode of your show Fred!


Chupa
 
Welcome Fred. been a fan of yours for a long time. your gonna take your lion with a Thunderhead right
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. post some pics when you get back. i'll take a pack of back-straps
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Originally Posted By: borkonWelcome Fred. been a fan of yours for a long time. your gonna take your lion with a Thunderhead right
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. post some pics when you get back. i'll take a pack of back-straps
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I learn something new every day here...I didn't know anyone ate lion meat.\
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Originally Posted By: jbmasterAnd while I am not an expert,nor do I know what kind of vegetation you hunt in,You can not possibly know that your bullets never riccochete.Just saying.

Actually a person can know that with a reasonable certainty.

Now, if you are talking about a 45-70 hard cast bullet, yes, I see your point, and what you say is true. Even with a .22 long rifle bullet. But, with bullet technology today we are talking about very thin copper jackets with soft lead cores expanded with polymer tips. They are designed to fragment into very small pieces upon impact. Add that to high velocity & the bullet fragments very rapidly. I'm sure there's small pieces of jacket & lead that disburse from impact, but I wouldn't consider that a riccochet by standard definition.

Police Depts. nationwide are using the Hornady TAP ammo because it has the same VMax bullet that we use for predators. In extensive testing not only by Hornady, but the police agencies themselves, the studies show virtually no riccochet potential, and further studies indicate that light obstructions like drywall or wood paneling such as inside homes and apartments will also fragment the projectile, and reduce the risk of casualties to bystanders.

If you combine the above with basic safe hunting proceedures, such as knowing your target, being aware of your background, and not shooting towards anything you don't want to kill, then a hunter can very well say that they don't have riccochets. Might not work with other calibers like 30-30 or .308, or the big game cartridges, but I'll stand my ground on this one as it relates to what I use, and where and how I hunt. I also don't spray and pray as game is running over a hill, so there's no damage potential there either.

When out hunting I would hope that we are all aware of the potential risks, and are familiar with our hunting areas by knowing the type ammo you use, and how it works, and by knowing what's over that next hill, or through those thickets. Once a shot is fired, it's too late to "Take it back"....
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I agree with you rockin, to a point. However, it doesn't change the fact that I've seen a 17HMR with 17gr vmax going 2550fps ricochet off a gravel road and cut leaves off trees in the background. I was shooting sparrows off a pile of seed about 130yds away, and the trees were about 60yds behind that. I've seen it happen once, out of probably 500rnds fired in that same setup... but it did happen.

Would I feel un-safe when shooting vmax for any reason? No way. Ricochets are the exception, not the rule. FMJ's on the other hand... anyone that's been in the military and done a night fire exercise knows they go spitting all over the place!
 
I would have to support Fred's explanation. None of the weapons we use are ideal for all conditions. During the development stage for predator decoys at
MOJO, which we tackled to help the hunters back East,
down South (heavy cover) to get them in close as needed in their area, we rather forced the use of shotguns on ourselves, as the decoys we developed tend to cause especially coyotes to come hard to the decoy, bust it then leave just as hard, makeing hard rifle shots, but people still use rifles. And, having shot a good many with the shotgun last few years, it is not the weapon of choice in many cases.

I easily relate to Fred's comment on allowing people to use equipment of their choice. I had the pleasure to serve on my State's Wildlife and Fisheries Commission for 6 years a few years ago, serving as Chairman twice and Vice Chairman twice. One thing that struck me was that such Commissions were created a hundred years ago to curb abuses, and therefore most states regulations are full of "thalt shall not . . . " so I went on a crusade to purge them out on the basis that hunting license sales are down to 5% of the population and we should quit telling people that they cannot hunt in some form or other and start helping them to hunt in any form that can be show to be moral and ethical.

I appluad Fred for standing up. Lets help people to hunt in lieu of criticizing how they hunt, if it be
moral, ethical and legal.

Terry Denmon
 
Fred, welcome to PM. Believe it or not this is the best group of people you'll ever meet. As you can see, we're all extremely passionate about what we do as I can tell you are too. This isn't the first heated discussion on the board, and it won't be the last. WE ARE A FAMILY and as many of us will see over the holidays, sometimes families bicker and argue. That doesn't mean that we hate each other, quite the opposite. We love each other and want everyone to succeed and find joy in this life. Funny, but that's the way we function here. Glad to have you aboard. Welcome to the family!
 
Originally Posted By: Predator StrikeforceFred, welcome to PM. Believe it or not this is the best group of people you'll ever meet. As you can see, we're all extremely passionate about what we do as I can tell you are too. This isn't the first heated discussion on the board, and it won't be the last. WE ARE A FAMILY and as many of us will see over the holidays, sometimes families bicker and argue. That doesn't mean that we hate each other, quite the opposite. We love each other and want everyone to succeed and find joy in this life. Funny, but that's the way we function here. Glad to have you aboard. Welcome to the family!

very well put! i think we all can agree on this. happy holidays fellas! dont forget your hunny-do lists before you head out hunting around the holidays. ha it makes your hunt more enjoyable.
 
Originally Posted By: FredEichlerReally? This much fuss over one show where I chose to shoot a LEGAL Full Metal Jacket round to hunt with?
Maybe it's good I don't get on these sites much. In hindsight, I do apologize for not explaining to any novices watching the show that an FMJ is not the most effective round for predator hunting. But, a bow isn't the most effective weapon to hunt them with either and in certain situations I enjoy that as well. As for the experienced guys that grew up hunting, trapping and selling furs like I did, I just figured they already knew that so I didn't feel the need to explain. It is a scary time in our country with more freedoms being taken away every day. In my eyes if it is legal whether I personally agree with it or not, I am all for it and will not take up a stance against it. A few of you would be well served to follow that reasoning or all of our hunting rights will be in jeopardy as we squabble amongst ourselves. Good hunting, Fred
I just came across this post, well said Fred!!! kind of funny how so many people choose "bash" someone who KNOWS, and who has GROWN up in the outdoors doing this for a living, like he said all this fuss over some FMJ's, [beeep] i'm gonna start usin em in my 308 so i don't get the pelt damage i have been gettin, and if i cant i'll run some cnc brass rounds... Predator Nation IMHO is the best predator huntin show on, (besides the last Foxpro in wyo) there was some action in that 1/2 hour!!!
Originally Posted By: FredEichler
It is a scary time in our country with more freedoms being taken away every day.
Take care, and i have said this befor many times to many people, but those in the "limelight" have the ability to "expose" our problems more than most!
 
Originally Posted By: mojoman


I easily relate to Fred's comment on allowing people to use equipment of their choice. I had the pleasure to serve on my State's Wildlife and Fisheries Commission for 6 years a few years ago, serving as Chairman twice and Vice Chairman twice. One thing that struck me was that such Commissions were created a hundred years ago to curb abuses, and therefore most states regulations are full of "thalt shall not . . . " so I went on a crusade to purge them out on the basis that hunting license sales are down to 5% of the population and we should quit telling people that they cannot hunt in some form or other and start helping them to hunt in any form that can be show to be moral and ethical.




Terry Denmon

Maybe you could talk some sense into Arizona's officials to allow night hunting of predators.
 
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