The Neck Shot Versus the Heart/Lung Shot?

Salmo22

Salmo22

New member
I've watched a ton of predator hunting DVD's and notice that many of the coyotes, bobcats and "others" shot on camera do some serious spinning before they go down. While I realize that some of this spinning may be the result of a less than well placed shot or a small caliber weapon that does not hit with enough force, it seems to happen often.

My father raised me to neck shoot all the game I've ever hunted. When I center-punch a coyote in the neck it goes straight down like I'd turned the switch off. I've noticed that most of the coyotes shot on Mark Zepp's DVD's also drop dead without any spinning. I asked him once about this and he confirmed that he and his fellow hunter primarily neck shoot predators. My dad has killed six big bull elk in his life time and shot all of them in the neck. On every occasion, the elk fell dead door nails in its' tracks. Based on my experience, the neck shot appears to send a tremendous shock wave to the brain and generally breaks the animals neck. The resulting brain and neck damage is typically so severe as to cause instantaneous death. Unlike a heart/lung shot, no amount a adrenaline will overcome a fatal neck shot. How many times have we hunters marveled at an animal with a serious hole in its heart and lungs go running up hill for a hundred yards?

I don't want to sound like some kind of bleeding heart, but I wonder why the focus on shooting predators (or other game animals for that matter) through the heart/lungs? Rarely have I seen a heart/lung shot drop an animal in its tracks. 9 times out of ten it makes some sort of "run" before it drops - in the case of coyotes it spins. Frankly, it doesn't seem to be much more effective than a heart/lung archery shot.

I've often wondered if we are doing our sport a diservice by producing DVD's and TV shows that don't show more "drop-dead" kills? It certainly does not help our cause to have the PITA folks (or our non-hunting wives) see these animals shot and not go down quickly. When I see a fellow on the Outdoor Channel talk about a "one shot" kill, it typically means he shot the animal once in the heart/lung area and then followed a blood trail to where the deer/elk/moose/etc has expired. My idea of a "one shot" kill means one shot and the animal went straight down dead.

I'm not critcizing anyone and to each hunter his own; however, I've often wondered (especially with thin-skinned game like coyotes) why we don't employee more neck or head shots? Do we need more practice to have greater confidence in a neck/head shot, or have we simply been conditioned by years of magazine articles and TV shows to always aim for the heart/lungs?

Just some thoughts for the evening.
 
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Simple math; the neck on an average coyote is about the diameter of your wrist, or at best, the part that if hit will kill it. The heart/lung/liver kill area is about the size of a litre pop bottle, much larger lethal area than the risky neck shot.
 
Originally Posted By: TachoSimple math; the neck on an average coyote is about the diameter of your wrist, or at best, the part that if hit will kill it. The heart/lung/liver kill area is about the size of a litre pop bottle, much larger lethal area than the risky neck shot.
Tacho:

You are absolutely correct that the heart/lung/liver area gives hunters a larger target on coyotes (or most any other game animal) than the neck/head - you will get no argument from me on that statement. That is why I asked about the issue of practice. Are most hunters simply not confident enough in their ability or equipment to hit the smaller neck area on a coyote? Would some quality time at the range and work on developing more accurate loads help in this area?

I realize that part of my question begins to bring hunting ethics into the room; however, I was raised (many, many years ago) to do my best to swiftly kill any game animal I was hunting - thus my father's training me to focus on the neck/head area.
 
I shot a lot of my fox in the head or neck when we had them,.223fmjbt 55gr Sierra. I would aim for the head most of the time, allowing any wind drift to carry it to the neck, or if running it may take it to the neck. I knew exactly where my bullet would hit at any range to 325yds.
Twice when I layed down to shoot a fox, all I could see was the top 2" of the head, so I aimed 3" into the snow and squeezed off, hitting them in the meat on top of the skull, the fmjbt just smoked through and out, not breaking the skull or blowing a hole. They were knocked unconcious, til I walked up to them, still unable to move. I was shooting in the head to not get any fur damage, when they were 50-60$ a fox with a hole was worth half that. Some were shot broadside, rib to rib, but most were head or neck shots. Now, with coyote-Tactical.20, I don't need to worry about fur damage. The high shoulder shot is good, few if any spin if hit there.
 
When I see this question come up,,My answer is usually about the same,,it is all about center mass,,Whatever the animal is hit it there,it dies...period.
'Nothing in this world can live for more than a period of time with a hole through both lungs.

A grazed head,,chunk out of the neck ,blown off faces are all animals that live usually to the point of starvation or infection.

Some folks or 'Hunters" if you will try and reinvent the wheel,,with"spine shooting",,"head shooting" or the famous texas heart shot.

The Machine room is there and even that shot can be butched plenty of times,,so why take a lower percentage shot.

.................................X
 
Originally Posted By: coyotexWhen I see this question come up,,My answer is usually about the same,,it is all about center mass,,Whatever the animal is hit it there,it dies...period.
'Nothing in this world can live for more than a period of time with a hole through both lungs.

A grazed head,,chunk out of the neck ,blown off faces are all animals that live usually to the point of starvation or infection.

Some folks or 'Hunters" if you will try and reinvent the wheel,,with"spine shooting",,"head shooting" or the famous texas heart shot.

The Machine room is there and even that shot can be butched plenty of times,,so why take a lower percentage shot.
Hey Coyotex:

You are absolutely right, good center mass hits will result in a kill. It just seems to me that more and more hunting TV shows and DVDs show center mass hits from high-tech weapons that don't seem to kill anymore effectively than the guy flinging arrows - no offense to bow hunters. I watched an elk hunt on TV a few days ago where the hunter appeared to shoot the trophy through the "machine room" and the elk ran off. The hunter waited for 30-minutes or so before following the blood trail to the dead elk. For a moment, I thought I was watching a bow hunting show. Am I expecting to much from today's centerfire rifles/ARs? Shouldn't they be more effective killing tools than an arrow with center mass hits?

I also agree with you that someone trying to shoot an animal in the neck/head can inflict a non-leathal wound if the shot is misplaced. That being said, this the same case for any hunter that misses the heart/lungs. Gut or leg shot coyotes often escape to die much later. To me, a correctly placed neck/head shot is more lethal than the heart/lung and not that much more difficult execute. It certainly requires practice; however, today's great weapons are capable of delivering this level of accuracy if the hunter is equally prepared.

Just my 2-cents.
 
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Coyote hunting, isn't deer hunting, where one can wait out an animal to offer a standing broadside shot. Hunting coyotes, is a dynamic, not static type hunting, where shots might be a walking,trotting or even running shot. Given that parameter, it's easy to see why the smart money is on a heart/lung/liver shot, just as dead as a head shot, just a second or three slower,and ten times larger than the hens egg size brain shot.
A head shot is possibly the worst percentage shot a hunter can take,other than a neck shot,and the chance for a run off is greatly increased, why even attempt it? Doing so is risky, considering the better shot area available. Save the egg shooting and bragging for the range where a bullseye can't run off or be crippled.
 
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Quote:I also agree with you that someone trying to shoot an animal in the neck/head can inflict a non-lethal wound if the shot is misplaced. That being said, this the same case for any hunter that misses the heart/lungs.

A true statement as far as it goes, but there will be a much larger percentage of non fatal botched head (and neck) shots than there will be heart/lung/liver shots.

If you screw up a bread basket shot and only nick the liver/heart, or get just one lung, etc, the animal may run...but he's dead anyway within a few minutes.

As has already been said, a botched head shot often leaves the animal to starve to death. If it's a large predator, a lion or bear, a botched head shot may make the animal a man or pet eater in an attempt to survive.

Your point probably has more validity with big game where the animal isn't rapidly moving and the hunter can usually, at least to a degree, wait for the right aspect before he shoots.

That's often not the case with predators. IF you can get a coyote to stop running (in or out), he'll be alert and watchful, and if the aspect he's giving you doesn't suit you, too bad. It's what you get, and for only a second or so at that.

You hunt the way you want, but as far as I'm concerned, unless it's a very unusual circumstance, a head shot (or neck) is a very poor percentage shot. Especially on predators, and especially at extended ranges.
 
Originally Posted By: TachoCoyote hunting, isn't deer hunting, where one can wait out an animal to offer a standing broadside shot. Hunting coyotes, is a dynamic, not static type hunting, where shots might be a walking,trotting or even running shot. Given that parameter, it's easy to see why the smart money is on a heart/lung/liver shot, just as dead as a head shot, just a second or three slower,and ten times larger than the hens egg size brain shot.
A head shot is possibly the worst percentage shot a hunter can take,other than a neck shot,and the chance for a run off is greatly increased, why even attempt it? Doing so is risky, considering the better shot area available. Save the egg shooting and bragging for the range where a bullseye can't run off or be crippled.
Dear Tacho:

I am confident the percentages favor your preferred shot placement/methodology. I've been fortunate to shoot competitive benchrest competition for several years with a modicum of success. I'm confident in my shooting abilities and the capabilities of my weapons. Accordingly, I don't see neck/head shoots has a problem - no ego here, simply how it is. Maybe most predator hunters are not capable of reliably hitting the neck/head compared to the heart/lungs.

Take care and good hunting.
 
i shoot them in the head/neck all the time....with my 12 gauge
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and by the way when i use my rifle, a 22-250 shooting 40 grain nosler ballistic tips at 3990 fps my coyotes i shoot go stiff and fall over and dont even kick....so i dont waist time trying to shoot them in the neck....but maybe only my bullets kill coyotes that fast
 
I shoot a 22-250, and have never had a problem dropping coyotes in their tracks with a heart shot. I was also brought up on "shootem in the neck". I guarantee you, I have never shot anything in the neck that didn't bounce off the ground. The only thing is, around here, coyotes and other predators usually don't give you very long to think. A moving target is very common. I don't think its unethical at all to take a heart shot and watch them spin for a second. I'm one of those that beleive a bad neck shot can be good, because if it dosen't drop, Its most likley a complete miss and no harm done to the animal, no blood trail to track, no animal to kill and lose. BUT, If their mouth was blown off, it's a miserable, long, death in their future. As far as all the animal rights nuts go, I don't care. Screwem. I hope they cried when they watched it.

-Dave
 
Salmo, you really ain't been at this coyote hunting crap very long have ya? Maybe only seen it done on videos?

Get and there and kill several dozen coyotes for yourself and then come back and preach your head/neck shot BS. Until then, you have no clue pardner.
 
I hunt predators for their fur. A neck is pretty thin with a good chance of blowing a big hole in the hide. A chest shot with a smaller caliber 17 rem, or 204 wii most likly not come out. Making the fur burer, and me a much more happy camper.
 
Originally Posted By: Salmo22Rarely have I seen a heart/lung shot drop an animal in its tracks. 9 times out of ten it makes some sort of "run" before it drops

Not IMHE. Using a .223 and .22-250 with 50 gr V-max and 52 gr HP, I've killed about 60 coyotes over the past 5 years. Of those, 4 ran/spun/failed to drop in their tracks. The others were bang-flop, DRT.

The closest shot was 10 yards, the farthest was 350 (and leaving), the average is right around 100. My favorite shot is 60 yards head-on and I put the bullet between the shoulders, right at the top of the shoulders.
 
Salmo,

I think most of Zepps guys use .243's as well, which has quite a bit more knock down then the common 223 or 22-250.

That being said, I am not a greatly experienced coyote hunter, but I have about 70-80 coyotes under my belt. One hit properly with a 223 or 22-250 I have never had run off at all. Most go straight down and go to sleep. [beeep], even most of them I have gut shot go down right away.
 
Any hunter who kills enough coyotes will have some spinners. However, finding the right combination of caliber, speed, and bullet helps cut down dramatically the number of spinners. Not trying to get into a bullet debate but my % of spinners has gone to almost nothing by switching my 22.250 from ballistic tips to slower expansion HPs. Bang flop almost every time. The other consideration is most predator hunters shoot their coyotes too far back due to layout of the coyote's anatomy compared to a deer or other types of animals. Heads, chest, vitals, it all works but take the shot that gives you the best opportunity to harvest the animal.
 
Salmo,

Most of the coyotes I shoot at don't seem to hold still for as long as a benchrest target, and often you don't get the chance to dope the wind.

Take it from a guy that has missed more coyotes than lots of folks ever see.

First coues was 80

Mark Zepp personally told me the reason his shooters use a .243 is cause they ain't very good shots. I ain't a very good shot either, but on the off chance that I hit a coyote with my .17 Remington or fireball, they are ready for the fur buyer. 'course, Most people on here don't know what a fur buyer is.

Dave
 
PHTLS/[Pre-Hospital Trauma Life Support] class I took in medic school many yrs ago. There are 5 known organs that will or have a tendancy to "fracture".
From a traumatic/kinetic injury. They are....

LSPOK; Liver, Spleen, Pancreas, Ovaries & Kidneys.

Point being, they are prone to blunt trauma or pressure trauma. As they are considered "solid organs" with very little "give" or expansion properties. Specifically when that truama is accute/rapid, vs slow/chronic.

I've only shot a couple coyotes in the neck/throat. One coyote I shot him when he was flat out. Caught him in the cervical spine & severed his trachea & one carotid artery. He rolled 3x & was dead after he came to a halt.
The other coyote was long range & caught a rd in the neck severing her carotid. Knocked her to the ground & she got back up walking slow yelping. What a bloody mess. I don't intentionally aim for the throat.
 
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