Public schoolers: How's that indoctrination workin' out?

Quote:parents who home school their children are often ill-equipped to perform the task once their children are beyond 7th grade.

I've no doubt that's true, but to what extent? How about some actual data with percentages?






Quote:Because few parents can teach 7 subjects they subscribe to some online teaching program or school which does a half-[beeep] job.


Actually, most home school parents order textbooks, go online, or in some other way use outside help in instruction. Not to do so would be foolish bordering on criminal neglect. You use textbooks, study guides, lesson plans, etc, in your classroom don't you?

That begs the question though, what percentage subscribe to an "online teaching program or school which does a half-[beeep] job" Scott. I'm sure you wouldn't make such a blatant statement without the data to back it up would you?







Quote:Many times the reason a parent pulls their child fro a pubic school is because they do not like the accountability a public school requires of a parent.

Gee, I thought the reason government schools were failing is because parents weren't being held accountable by the schools.

Never mind, I'm sure you are correct depending on the definition of "many times". Is that 1%? 99%? How about some actual data?








Quote:mleon,
You crack me up! Citing a list of courses as evidence that teaching can be learned from textbooks is absurd. Once again, IT IS IN THE APPLICATION! There are an infinte number of variables in the course of a class/ day/ semester etc. that would be impossible to learn from any textbook or course of study. Even the highly specialized skill jobs that you hold in such high regard have textbooks and required coursework.

Mike, you also need to learn to read for comprehension (or at least read the posts.

I did NOT "cite a list of courses as evidence that teaching can be learned from textbooks". I WAS citing the courses as evidence that the system (and Scott) seems to accept that teaching can be taught from textbooks.


This is what I said:

Quote:I tend to agree with you Mike, but apparently the "system" doesn't.

This from the curriculum for a BSE (just cause it was easy to get to).

Child Psychology and Development, Foundations of Education, Assessment in Elementary Education, Children's Literature, Models of Instruction, Music for Elementary Education, Creative Drama, Instructional Planning and Assessment, Mathematics for Elementary Education, Public Speaking, Educational Philosophy, Instructional Technology, Educational Psychology, Diversity Management.

You will note also (relating to the other post) that I tend to agree, meaning that while that is my suspicion, I don't have enough hard data to say with certainty one way or another.

This is a case where I think local primary school teacher's opinions ARE valuable, unfortunately it seems that our resident primary school teacher self proclaimed "expert" disagrees with most of the rest of the teachers here.

I guess I'll have to leave that one in abeyance until some actual data are published.
 
Quote:I've no doubt that's true, but to what extent? How about some actual data with percentages?

You guys need to all get on the same page. I was just told that my statement couldn't be true. That all parents are smart enough to teach their own children.

I don't do the statistic game. I just resort to common sense. It makes sense that most parents can not replicate the expansive curriculum a high school or junior high can provide. Core subjects yes- but beyond that I would think it tough financially to replicate all the classes a school can provide the student (not to mention someone with the knowledge to teach the class).
 
I have been doing some research across the net about home schooling Vs public schooling. I've just been looking at research/stats/facts. From what I can see it's showing that home schooled kids are scoring higher in academic test then kid's in public school. In one study they say- "The findings of this study do not support the idea that parents need to be trained and certified teachers to assure successful academic achievement of their children." and "Further, Dr. Ray found no significant statistical differences in academic achievement between those students taught by parents with less formal education and those students taught by parents with higher formal education."
Here is the Research if anyone want's to read it.
 
Quote:

i think it funny that you and jeffo had no comment on my post here

I did not look at that thread. If it doesn't say something about education in its title I seldom click on it.

Regardless congrats. Your daughter seems to be a top-notch student.
 
Originally Posted By: skeet987I have been doing some research across the net about home schooling Vs public schooling. I've just been looking at research/stats/facts. From what I can see it's showing that home schooled kids are scoring higher in academic test then kid's in public school. In one study they say- "The findings of this study do not support the idea that parents need to be trained and certified teachers to assure successful academic achievement of their children." and "Further, Dr. Ray found no significant statistical differences in academic achievement between those students taught by parents with less formal education and those students taught by parents with higher formal education."
Here is the Research if anyone want's to read it.


Uh.. when you pull a research study/article in favor of home schooling from a website made for the Home School Legal Defense Association the validity of the research would automatically be in question.

Find a study showing home schooled kids come out higher academically on the NEA website. Now THAT would be some study.
 
I found this on the NEA site. Here
I am really not here to "fight" with you hype but I feel that the reason you see all these articles favoring home schooling is because home schooling is the one being attacked and therefor have to prove by study and research that kid's that are home schooled are just as smart academicly as public schooled kid's. I invite you to find a site that does not "favor" home schooling that will show these statistic's wrong. I don't believe that the NEA or any other organzation will do more then say home schooled kids are antisocial and so on. Fact's are fact's regardless of where your getting it from.
 
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Definition of facts is that they are 'verified information'.

My favorite fact is that according to well documented information/facts, private citizens kill about two times as many Felony criminals than all the law enforcement agencies in the USA.

That interesting statistic should completely settle the the debates about the 2nd Amendment.

The organizations working against reasonable civilian gun ownership in our country have serious problems when the discussion gets to verified facts.

Somewhat similar to Obama's 'alleged' birth certificate. He could easily save the careers and service of a group of Army Officers if he would just make public the actual copy of his birth certificate with a simple phone call.

How hard could that be?

Good hunting!
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Skeet, Studies such as this are often very misleading, and used to the benefit of the group that publishes them. I'm not going to come on here and dispute it's findings, but upon reading it, you also have to notice the bias in it. One thing that has to be understood, is that in public schools, everyone is tested. That includes special needs. Not too hard to predict how that(and other) studies turn out that way. Same as when they compare the US students with foreign students. Many foreign countries use a tract system, where only the academic tract is tested. If we are so far behind academically, why do so many foreigners com here to study? It's apples to oranges.

mleon, My comprehension is just fine. If you were genuine in your agreement, then I apologize. However, it's hard to tell given your general feeling of disdain for education.

The truth of the matter is that the educational system is flawed on many levels. What's making it worse is all the different groups that are trying to "fix" it, many of which have no business in education. Also throw in societal issues such as "the wussification of America", the constant threat of lawsuits, the removal of anything that could be construed as offensive. The list goes on and on...... As far as teachers go, there will always be a few that aren't good, but I do believe we are getting a higher quality teacher today than in the past. Requirements at the college level are becoming more stringent and in many areas there is a lot of competition for jobs. (when my father was a superintendent of an elementary school a one one week add in the paper would yield 150 resumes). I have worked in a number of schools, and some of those schools, there is no way I would send my son to. Not one would be because of the teachers, but because of the way the school was run.

Mike
 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxQuote:I've no doubt that's true, but to what extent? How about some actual data with percentages?

You guys need to all get on the same page. I was just told that my statement couldn't be true. That all parents are smart enough to teach their own children.

I don't do the statistic game. I just resort to common sense. It makes sense that most parents can not replicate the expansive curriculum a high school or junior high can provide. Core subjects yes- but beyond that I would think it tough financially to replicate all the classes a school can provide the student (not to mention someone with the knowledge to teach the class).



LOL, you put words in people's mouths and then argue with your own words. I never said homeschooling was for everyone. I simply dispute your quote:

Quote:The home school parent can not even come close to providing the skill set to adequately teach their son/daughter beyond 6th grade ([beeep], I dont think they can adequately teach them at all personally).

You are obviously wrong and yet you refuse to even aknowledge that homeschooling is a viable alternative to your beloved public schooling. Then when confronted with facts you disregard them based on your limited personal experience (which you have told us is the three or four schools in your local area). You have also been proved wrong on the issue of parents having the knowledge to teach highschool cirriculum. Your stereotype of homeschool parents being some back-woods anti-government inbred hick may be tainting your view. Yet on the other hand you are incredibly confident in every teacher's ability to know what a child needs and teach them. That education degree must be one h*ll of a degree!
 
I will repeat this again but don't expect you to read or understand it. I have made these statements in 3 or 4 different threads. You apparently need them all in 1 central location.

1. In my opinion homeschooling would only be a viable form of education if the person doing the instructing has the knowledge base to teach the curriculum. As the curriculum gets higher by grade, less people in society have this knowledge.

2. In my opinion few home school programs can replicate the broad curriculum base a high school can due to funding and lack of people to teach the curriculum suitably.

3. Public schooling does have it's short comings but on the whole is doing the best they can with the students society is handing them, the money the government is providing, and the expectations the public has.

4. In my opinion, the majority of public school teachers are sincerely looking out for the best interest of the child with regards to academics and providing a safe environment conducive to learning.

5. The higher education a public school teachers receives is essential to equip the teacher with not only the knowledge of the subject matter he/she teaches but the strategies needed to teach all students and learning styles effectively.

6. Private School, due to the teach to student ratio and rigorous high standards is a viable alternative to public education but do to it's additional expense (beyond taxes that pay for public schooling) is not an option many people can participate in.

7. The criteria by which charter schools are established and governed fluctuates so much from state to state I can only comment on them in Arizona. Many Arizona's charter school are mismanaged and not a suitable alternative to public education. There are some that are provide a good education.

8. It is my opinion that all forms of education, public, home schooling, and charter need to have higher accountability.

9. It is my opinion that parents that choose to home school their children should be required to show their child is making adequate yearly academic progress.
 
I don't see how you can compare a study about gun's killing people with schooling. A study that say's an inanimate object kill's people is ubsurd. Those fact's show nothing more then a person CHOSE to use a gun to kill someone.
 
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The point was being made that a study initiated by the proponent of a particular point of view often times carries no validity.

Whether the study is about gun control, immigration, tug boat safety or the price of cheese on Jupiter is irrelevant.
 
Hey I'm interested in knowing how much cheese on jupiter cost.
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We all have our own opinion's on alot of thing's but the great thing is we can all find common ground about something and are able to get along. I will bow out of this thread aswell unless something is directed at me.
Good hunting!
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"Find a study showing home schooled kids come out higher academically on the NEA website. Now THAT would be some study."

That's about as idiotic as it gets.

From the NEA:
Our vision is a great public school for every student.
Our mission is to advocate for education professionals and to unite our members and the nation to fulfill the promise of public education to prepare every student to succeed in a diverse and interdependent world.
We believe public education is vital to building respect for the worth, dignity, and equality of every individual in our diverse society.
We believe public education is the cornerstone of our republic. Public education provides individuals with the skills to be involved, informed, and engaged in our representative democracy....etc, etc, public education, etc, puke, puke, vomit...

Yes, yes...let the NEA publish an unbiased study favoring anything but public education. Geeez...get real.

Seriously Hype...you quite evidently simply CHOOSE to have your head in the sand concerning the overwhelming weight of evidence favoring homeschooling over public schooling. Any monkey can look at the preponderance of evidence and draw a logical conclusion. And although your own GLARING bias is the most damaging retort to any of your claims, you simply must be the least informed person I've ever encountered in the anti-homeschool/pro-public school fray. 90% of what you have written (in this thread and any other) concerning the "disadvantages" of homeschooling can be easily dismantled using about 2% of the research that has been completed on the subject. (And no, I won't waist my time "proving" anything to you, since you obviously are immune to truth).

It's great to have a "cause" and everything, but for crying out loud, man, at least educate yourself on the facts - As it is, you are, ironically, public education's worst enemy.
 
Pilgrim, First off, I'm not going to beat the drum for public or home school. Do what you feel is best for your child, and live with the decision. What I will say is that I have yet to see a study produced by anyone that has true validity. Quite simply, there are too many variables that would have to be taken into account. Once again, it is comparing apples to oranges. One thing I do remember is that socioeconomic status was correlated with academic success. (Obviously not a 100% rule, more of a guide or predictor.) I would also argue that many of the home school students that do well academically would probably do well in public schools because they have parents that care, and value education, and have instilled those values in their children. I wish more parents would posses those qualities, it would make my job a heck of a lot easier. Have a good evening all, read to your kids.
Mike
 
Originally Posted By: mjiorle I would also argue that many of the home school students that do well academically would probably do well in public schools because they have parents that care, and value education, and have instilled those values in their children. I wish more parents would posses those qualities, it would make my job a heck of a lot easier. Have a good evening all, read to your kids.
Mike

That right there pretty well sums it all up. The parents are the key, if they are can instill the desire to succeed the children have a better chance. It doesn't matter if it is home, private or public school it the kid doesn't apply themselves they get left behind. Whose fault is it? The parents, why should a teacher in public school or private school have to coddle a lazy student? Flunk the "little darling" until the cows come home or until they become a leach on society.
 
Parents come out of the woodwork when you recommend failing a student and holding him back. All of a sudden they're front and center at school.
 
If yours are like the ones here, that is about the only time these "concerned" parents come out of the wood work. Then they tell everyone how great their "little darling " is, when in reality their "little darling " is a grade A candidate for reform school.

That is why home school and private school have such good statistics, even an idiot of a parent won't try to home school their "little darling" that has been left to run wild. And private schools send them packing, that leaves the public school teachers to try and fix that "little darling". Then the other children suffer because of the "little darling's" disruptive behavior. Great case in hand is the teacher that beat the kid in Houston, a lot of information has not been provided about this "little darling". He is a candidate for not reform school but TDCJ, or the "big house".
 
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