Private schools in AZ teaching parent show to break the law

ok............

entire article here:

http://www.liberal-education.com/2009/11/19/private-school-tax-credit-can-save-az-up-to-186-million/


Private School Tax-Credit Can Save AZ up to $186 Million

(AZcentral.com) A Baylor University economics professor told lawmakers on Monday that Arizona’s private-school tax-credit scholarship program saved the state $44 million to $186 million last year.

Charles North’s analysis offered a substantially higher savings estimate for the state thanThe Arizona Republic’s estimate of $8.3 million over a period of nine years, published in an article last month.
 
Good try you charlatan. Wrong article yet you show your true colors using THAT trash as a source.

The original article stated the following horrible practice of this private school:

More than 300 private schools across Arizona receive money from the state’s Private School Tuition Tax Credits program, which takes income tax dollars, otherwise destined for state coffers, to pay for private education.

A Tribune investigation of the tax credits found these subsidies have largely failed to increase access to private schools for low- and middle-income students and for minorities in particular.

Instead, schools that receive the most tax credit scholarships dramatically increased their tuition. Several campuses doubled the price.

And a small handful even mandate that parents make a tax credit donation to the private school as part of their children’s tuition, violating state and federal law.:

 
Originally Posted By: HyperwrxGood try you charlatan. Wrong article yet you show your true colors using THAT trash as a source.

The original article stated the following horrible practice of this private school:

More than 300 private schools across Arizona receive money from the state’s Private School Tuition Tax Credits program, which takes income tax dollars, otherwise destined for state coffers, to pay for private education.

A Tribune investigation of the tax credits found these subsidies have largely failed to increase access to private schools for low- and middle-income students and for minorities in particular.Instead, schools that receive the most tax credit scholarships dramatically increased their tuition. Several campuses doubled the price.

And a small handful even mandate that parents make a tax credit donation to the private school as part of their children’s tuition, violating state and federal law.:





You mean private schools can pick and choose? But public schools can't. Think that has anything to do with test scores? Naw, me neither.
 
Quote:Good try you charlatan. Wrong article yet you show your true colors using THAT trash as a source.

Now there's a case of the pot calling the kettle black if there ever was one.

Seems any legal violations are a stretch and more poor wording than practice.

Notre Dame Preparatory in Scottsdale — which collected $620,868 in tax credits last year — charges $10,400 in yearly tuition, not counting application and registration fees. In 2004, families paid $7,235 per student.

At the Phoenix Hebrew Academy, kindergarten tuition was $9,600 last year; enrolling in grades first through eighth cost $10,500. A kindergarten education at the academy cost $7,800 in 2005; the elementary grades were $7,500.

Brophy College Preparatory in Phoenix has almost doubled tuition since 2001, now charging more than $12,000. The elite campus collects the second-most tax credit scholarship money, $1.5 million last year.

And AZ government education cost $13,911 per child including capital expenditures (which will usually be included in the private school costs).

Looks like a substantial savings to me, even after the increases.

This is from the actual study:

Some critics of the tuition tax credit have asserted that students receiving STO scholarships to attend private schools would enroll in private schools even without the scholarships. As a result, such critics claim that the program does not save the state money. These critiques are likely wrong.

• At least 14 of the largest STOs place substantial emphasis (including six that place sole emphasis) on financial need in deciding on scholarship awards.2 These 14 STOs account for 18,452 (or 65.2 percent) of the 28,321 scholarships awarded in 2008. They also accounted for $37.6 million (or 69.5 percent) of the $54.1 million in scholarships awarded on 2008. It is likely that a large number of recipients of scholarships from these STOs would not be able to attend private schools without their scholarships.
 
Classic nmleon smokescreen and diversion tactics. EVERYONE SHOULD TAKE NOTE OF THIS- THIS IS HOW NMLEON SUPPORTS HIS OPINION.

Quote:And AZ government education cost $13,911 per child including capital expenditures (which will usually be included in the private school costs).

In his original post above the amount he quoted was a hyperlink to the Department of Education's Annual Report. Upon seeing such the high amount he listed for spending per student I knew something was amiss. This is WAY more than it should be so I knew he was pulling the wool over people's eyes. I decided to investigate the link he supplied and see if his $13,911 was a truthful amount that the state spends on average per student. This is what I found:

If you click on the amount link a PDF document will open up. On the put in page 58 and it will jump you forward to the 1st page of the expenditures. This report breaks the expenditures down by district, charter school, and public school. We want a general average of Unified School Districts. If you look on page 58, 3rd row down you see Unified Districts. All the numbers on this row are the amounts used to come up with the per student expenditures per district in our state. As you see it includes all sorts fo things, including administration costs, and student support services. Look at the total at the end $7,834. THAT is what the state spends on average per students, NOT what the Charlatan nmleon reports. To insure I did not overlook his total somewhere I plugged in his total of $13,911 into the search feature to see if it would appear somewhere in the document. HIS NUMBER OF 13,911 IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT. One has to ask, how on earth did he come up with this huge number. It doesn't take a mental giant to understand he wants to create the facade that public schools are getting more for doing less but an outright lie? Possible, we're seen it elsewhere but I can only guess he is adding a series of numbers up to come up with this amount. god only knows. Did he link to this report to lend credibility to his misguided rambling and find his numbers elsewhere in another of his 40,000+ articles he stores on his computer?

FACT- Arizona is ranked 49th out of all state in the United States for spending per student. Is it any coincidence that AZ is almost last in student achievement? Absolutely not. Money is not always the answer to making kids smarter but it is always a primary reason attributed to student achievement. Private schools have WADS of money. With their money they hire enough teachers to bring their student to teacher ratios down to a fantastic level, which in turn creates an environment in the classroom that is conductive to learning. Does nmleon understand this? Of course not. His head is so far in the sand thinking there is nothing salvageable in public education that logic, reason, and facts have long since flew out of his thought process.

Nmleon banks that the typical member will not questions him when he begins ranting from his throne. He believes the typical PM member will not check the sources he quotes. To nmleon it makes no difference if you have many years of service in the profession he claims to be an authority on. Your opinion on the subject at hand is mute and void because he has 40,000 articles stating a different viewpoint.

It's comical and one really has to think about it. He has several professional educators in this thread all telling him he's wrong. Several times they have proven him wrong and pulled the rug out from under him when he incorrectly stated facts about education, the teachers union, and teachers pay. Because he has such an inflated ego (this has been said by several people in these education threads) he refuses to admit he was wrong on anything. Heck he wont even admit anyone elses opinion helps him to better form his own opinion. Nobody knows anything about education but nmleon, not even the people who have devoted their lives to the profession. Seem ridiculous? Everyone thinks so. One has to think- I am an educator who has taught many years at many levels. I am knee-deep in the profession and know what makes it tick. I see all kinds of problems with public education. I have listed many in these threads. We need an education overhaul in the worst way. We need more accountability in education (public, private, and home schooling). I am not a member of the teachers union because of their covert agenda.

I am not a left-wing weirdo educator YET nmleon will tell you that he finds no common ground with me. He is so radical in this thinking he is unable to even process other people's opinions with the goal reassessing and recreating his own.

Nmleon- wake up and smell the coffee. You can't be an authority on everything. There has to be something you are not 100% correct on every single time you type. Geez.
 
I've become tired of this site for many personal reasons and have not posted for many months, maybe even years, because of these personal reasons. With that said, both of my parents were teachers, and I've retired from a local school district after working there for 26 years. The quality of education has nothing to do with the amount of money. The reason why private schools deliver a better product with less money is because they can fire a teacher. It is as simple as that.

If you want to improve education get rid of the National Education Association, at the state level of NEA it is called the Arizona Education Association here in Arizona(AEA), at the district level it is called the Certified Teachers Association (CTA), the Classified Employees Association (CEA) for the clerical and blue collar workers., the Administrators Association and all organizations that may resemble any of the above.

Next you need to make the principals responsible for improving grades/scores. No improvement = no job.
 
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Originally Posted By: AznativeI've become tired of this site for many personal reasons and have not posted for many months, maybe even years, because of these personal reasons. With that said, both of my parents were teachers, and I've retired from a local school district after working there for 26 years. The quality of education has nothing to do with the amount of money. The reason why private schools deliver a better product with less money is because they can fire a teacher. It is as simple as that.

If you want to improve education get rid of the National Education Association, at the state level of NEA it is called the Arizona Education Association her is Arizona(AEA), at the district level it is called the Certified Teachers Association (CTA), the Classified Employees Association (CEA) for the clerical and blue collar workers., the Administrators Association and all organizations that may resemble any of the above.

Next you need to make the principals responsible for improving grades/scores. No improvement = no job.


Aznative, Thank You!
 
Originally Posted By: sweatybettyOriginally Posted By: AznativeI've become tired of this site for many personal reasons and have not posted for many months, maybe even years, because of these personal reasons. With that said, both of my parents were teachers, and I've retired from a local school district after working there for 26 years. The quality of education has nothing to do with the amount of money. The reason why private schools deliver a better product with less money is because they can fire a teacher. It is as simple as that.

If you want to improve education get rid of the National Education Association, at the state level of NEA it is called the Arizona Education Association her is Arizona(AEA), at the district level it is called the Certified Teachers Association (CTA), the Classified Employees Association (CEA) for the clerical and blue collar workers., the Administrators Association and all organizations that may resemble any of the above.

Next you need to make the principals responsible for improving grades/scores. No improvement = no job.


Aznative, Thank You!

Your welcome. Sorry about some of the sentence structure. The wife made a very nice Mexican Food dinner and I made some strong Margaritas. I had a couple just before posting. This is our usual Cinco de Mayo celebration. The restaurants are way too crowded to go out. Plus, you cannot go out and drink as a couple and then drive home.
 
You are half right Scott. I'll split the difference with you.

I went back and double (and triple) checked, and the number should be $10,840 per child. That's 11,731,470,006 in total expenditures divided by 1,082,221 children.

I screwed up the first time and just punched the numbers into a calculator instead of columnating them (I know better).

I did NOT just take their word for it, I rarely do in any financial statement or any study.

Why?

What is the definition of "Cost Per Child? To me and to any accountant in private industry (including private schools) it's real simple.

Total expenditures divided by the number of students = Cost per child...RIGHT?



Well not if you are in the government school business. Look at pages 49-52. The State of AZ needs 4 1/4 pages of "Definitions for Per Pupil Expenditure Amounts" in order to come up with your $7834.

They are absolutely correct...according to their definition. Unfortunately their definition and common practice are two different things.

I wonder why that is.

I wonder why the same phenomenon occurs with just about all government school reporting of cost per child in just about all states?


Watch this for a little eye opener.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzvKyfV3JtE&feature=player_embedded




Quote:It's comical and one really has to think about it. He has several professional educators in this thread all telling him he's wrong.

Well, two for the most part, you and jeffo. Elks and I agree about more than we disagree on, and it would appear that Aznative and I probably fundamentally agree as well.




Quote:Several times they have proven him wrong and pulled the rug out from under him when he incorrectly stated facts about education, the teachers union, and teachers pay.

I must be reading different threads Scott. You have constantly tried to say I've misstated facts (and now accuse me of lying), but you have been unable to refute anything (until this, sob).

Show me.




Quote:Because he has such an inflated ego (this has been said by several people in these education threads) he refuses to admit he was wrong on anything.

Go back and read it again Scott, they were talking about YOU.



Quote:Nmleon banks that the typical member will not questions him when he begins ranting from his throne. He believes the typical PM member will not check the sources he quotes.

On the contrary, I wish people would not only check my sources, I wish they would actually read my posts



Quote: To nmleon it makes no difference if you have many years of service in the profession he claims to be an authority on.

More or less true. As I explained in the other thread, your "many years of service in the profession" is local teaching experience. Unless you are collecting reams of data outside your work environment, you are not an expert on national policy.

Your local experience is of paramount importance to you and your class, but it is just one of millions of data points nationally and therefore virtually meaningless as it relates to national policy.

Conversly, data and analysis on national education policy is virtually meaningless to you and your class.

Statistics don't apply to individuals or even small groups at all.

Statistics are ALL that applies to large groups or subsets of groups.




Quote: Your opinion on the subject at hand is mute and void because he has 40,000 articles stating a different viewpoint.

You've hardly been "mute", quite the opposite, and I don't have "40,000 articles stating a different viewpoint". I do have many many peer reviewed studies and statistical analyses, probably thousands (though not 40,000).

I don't often collect "articles", with the exception of those written by just a couple of extraordinary authors (Thomas Sowell for instance). I do often read common media articles as they can be a starting point for further research.

For instance both you and sweattybetty posted links to articles.

I pretty much discounted the newspaper article you linked to as poorly done mass media "research". The lady may have had a point, but you'd never be able to verify it as she used very sloppy methodology and very "loose" data.

Sweattybetty's was referencing a study done by a Professor Charles north of Baylor U.

I pretty much discounted that article as well, for pretty much the same reasons as above...EXCEPT...Given the name and affiliation it was only a couple of minutes research to find the actual study (not an article about it) and I quoted a small portion of it. It's also not a "rigorous" study (and not peer reviewed), but North explains that and what data he used, the methodology used etc., so it's of some interest (as opposed to a poorly researched "article").




Quote:I am not a left-wing weirdo educator YET nmleon will tell you that he finds no common ground with me.

Perhaps compared with some of your coworkers you are a paragon of conservatism. That's a little scary, but I'd allow for the possibility.

However, when you vehemently defend a government school system that for years has been dominated by leftist ideologues, cite a dittsy CA hippie chick as an authority on disciplining children, and debate using Saul Alinsky"s finest methods, well, it's a little difficult to imagine you as a conservative.


No common ground? Not true, we both like to kill coyotes (though I oppose putting a season on them).



Quote:You can't be an authority on everything. There has to be something you are not 100% correct on every single time you type. Geez.

Not 100% as the top of this post shows, but I do make an effort to be as correct as possible. The first rule I follow in that effort is to not type unless it IS something I am knowledgeable about.

You'll notice I very seldom post anything at all on sports for instance. I'm totally ignorant of just about any sport. I've never seen a hockey game (clips on tv), and couldn't even tell you what the names of the positions are on a basketball team (I know there are forwards and a center).

Likewise I don't post anything on women. Again I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the female of the species (actually I used to be an expert...but then I turned 5).
 
Quote:though I oppose putting a season on them

While I do not hunt coyotes during denning and whelping season I have never lobbied to have a season for coyotes in my state.
 
Quote:well, it's a little difficult to imagine you as a conservative.

You are making a judgment based on a few points rather than looking at the entire picture. You do this often to mold a situation to fit your rational. Let's look at this logically and go over the many attributes that would label someone a conservative to any degree. (You can close your eyes if you choose). I bet in some situations I am more conservative then you are.

Immigration policies- Should be more strictly enforced. too many people enter this country illegally.

Gay marriage- should not be made legal. A marriage is between and man and a woman.

Legalization of marijuana- Against it and think people caught using illegal substances should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. We can take this a step further- I would not bat an eye at making alcohol and tobacco illegal. Both are cancers in our society in my opinion.

Affirmative action- is outdated and hurts the people with the most merit.

The carrying of a firearm- Should be legal in all 50 states and is the act of taking the responsibility to protect one's self.

Health care- I do not think it is a right that should be granted just because you are a citizen of the United States.

Abortion- should be restricted, discouraged and illegal

Military action that defies international law is sometimes justified.

US justice system- Flawed because of too many plea bargains and loose interpretations of the law.

Death penalty- is an appropriate punishment in certain situations. I am in favor of the electric bleachers, not just the electric chair. Violent criminals should be dealt with lethally on a mass scale.

Avid trapper and hunter

Yeah- conservative. You're clueless.
 
Originally Posted By: AznativeI've become tired of this site for many personal reasons and have not posted for many months, maybe even years, because of these personal reasons. With that said, both of my parents were teachers, and I've retired from a local school district after working there for 26 years. The quality of education has nothing to do with the amount of money. The reason why private schools deliver a better product with less money is because they can fire a teacher. It is as simple as that.

If you want to improve education get rid of the National Education Association, at the state level of NEA it is called the Arizona Education Association here in Arizona(AEA), at the district level it is called the Certified Teachers Association (CTA), the Classified Employees Association (CEA) for the clerical and blue collar workers., the Administrators Association and all organizations that may resemble any of the above.

Next you need to make the principals responsible for improving grades/scores. No improvement = no job.



Doesn't the fact that private schools can hand-pick their students have anything to do with it?
 
BINGO!

Add to that the fact that any parent willing to invest their own money in their child's education at a private school obviously cares and will help that child with homework and other school endeavors.

I have no problem with sinking the NEA.
 
Quote:While I do not hunt coyotes during denning and whelping season I have never lobbied to have a season for coyotes in my state.

I personally have no evidence. I have heard from several sources that I trust that you (and Rich Higgins) were advocating it.


Quote:Quote:Doesn't the fact that private schools can hand-pick their students have anything to do with it?

BINGO!

So do either of you think that you personally would be able to do a better job of educating your classes if your school had the option of selective enrollment?
 
Originally Posted By: nmleon
I personally have no evidence. I have heard from several sources that I trust that you (and Rich Higgins) were advocating it.

I repeat- You nor any one of your trusted sources can show no evidence where I have ever advocated for a season on coyotes. I don't hunt personally during that time but have never done anything to restrict the hunting of coyotes in any way, shape, or form. Your sources enjoy stirring the pot. You already know that though I'm sure.

Originally Posted By: nmleon
So do either of you think that you personally would be able to do a better job of educating your classes if your school had the option of selective enrollment?


Undoubtedly.

When a private school filters out the bad behavior students, the special needs kids, the limited English proficient students, and the emotionally handicapped students their test scores will climb. That's just logical.

All these students are required to take the state standardized tests and their scores are included in the entire school's performance ratings. Imagine this (real life scenario)- the 10 year old autistic student (genius level IQ but just a little quirky), who can't sit still for more than a few minutes and animatedly refuses to do a bubble in the circles test because the he only uses pens to do his school work gets every single problem wrong because he didnt do it- his average is put in the schools performance. What about the girl straight from Mexico who walked in m room 3 weeks ago and is handed a reading test in English (long passages to read at 6th grade reading level)? The emotionally handicapped girl who has anxiety taking tests and cries the entire time she is taking the standardized test. Yeah, her scores are going to be fantastic. Public schools have to educate all those kids.

All those kids scores are averaged into the schools totals.

Would not having them in my classroom make teaching more effective? There is no doubt in my mind.

Would I choose to take those kids out of my class- Nope. I enjoy their different personalities and think they contribute to the classroom. I do the best I can teaching them and that's all I can do.

A private school's performance can't be compared to a public schools fairly.
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonQuote:While I do not hunt coyotes during denning and whelping season I have never lobbied to have a season for coyotes in my state.

I personally have no evidence. I have heard from several sources that I trust that you (and Rich Higgins) were advocating it.


Quote:Quote:Doesn't the fact that private schools can hand-pick their students have anything to do with it?

BINGO!

So do either of you think that you personally would be able to do a better job of educating your classes if your school had the option of selective enrollment?


Absolutely. I don't know (though I suspect it's much the same) about other places, but I spend considerable time dealing with discipline issues and kids who are just trying to disrupt the class. I've often thought that if teachers were allowed to rid their classes of 2 or 3 students, the whole dynamic would change. Of course, those 2 or 3 would have to go somewhere.

We do have advanced placement (AP) courses. These kids are hand-picked. They make up about 3-4% of the student population. These classes are a whole different world.
 
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I agree with you 100% on the idea that every professional teacher should have the right to have 2-3 students who are serious trouble in their class to be transferred to another teachers class just as lawyers often have a few jurors they can take off a Jury pool with no particular reason stated.
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A school friend of mine is near retirement from the Dallas School System. Often, one kid would focus totally and obviously on disrupting the class and causing trouble and management would never support a removal of the clear trouble maker and the problem child had to be dealt with by the over-burdened teacher and the child in question was learning more about the limits he could push without consequences.
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Your idea is a great one and I hope someday that the students have to either learn and accept that it is the adults in their lives who are in charge or leave school early to vocational or work programs which is most likely where they truly want to go and will go anyway.
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The policy of knowingly letting a small number of children ruin the chances of those who care about school can definitely be fixed, even if it requires the "Drill Sgt" approach now and then.
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Good idea!
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