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#1591350 - 04/30/10 07:30 AM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: Recko555]
Rifleman2 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 527
Loc: IL Rock Island County
My isn't interesting how this whole conversation goes from- I want to cut them in half when I shoot them to as soon as fur season starts but i don't want hurt the fur. Let's face it a coyote is one tough customer, Blew a 2 IN hole on the back side of the lung area on the last coyote( lungs hanging out ) and it still managed to run about 40 YRD's. Now that tough!!

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#1594722 - 05/06/10 08:39 AM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: stevelyn]
Mike Pearson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 305
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: stevelyn
Energy doesn't kill. Holes in vital organs do. If you put the holes in the right place it will die.


Steve, what you say, by and large, is true but you don't offer enough detail. The OP probably knows already that holes in the vital organs kill coyotes. Energy plays a role in this. And mere killing is not nearly enough. We want to quickly and humanely kill the animal. A 40 gr. .22 LR in the lungs will kill a coyote. A 40 grain V-Max or Ballistic Tip from a .223 or .22-250 into those same lungs will drop the animal like a ton of bricks. What's the main difference between those cartridges if it's NOT energy??? --- Mike
_________________________
Giving is living and living is giving.

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#1594728 - 05/06/10 08:57 AM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: P Side]
Mike Pearson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 305
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: P Side
Originally Posted By: nmleon
Quote:
A bullet kills by hydrostatic shock, a pressure wave caused by the transfer of energy.


Negative sir. I know that's been a popular theory seemingly forever (or at least since I was a a boy which is close to forever), but it's an absolutely incorrect theory.

There has been way too much research done on terminal ballistics for "hydrostatic shock" to even be considered. Popular {mis}conception just hasn't caught up with reality yet.

Think of it this way, if hydrostatic shock was the killing force, Ir wouldn't matter where your bullet hit the target. A hit anywhere would kill because of that "pressure wave". That {obviously} is not the case.


You were compairing apples and oranges.
Than you and I will disagree. You don't need to go through both lungs to colapse both. You need both shot placement and energy to kill. Most of the research that has been done, has been with military non expanding rounds. Those rounds don't expand and transfer energy the same way hunting rounds do. You site no research.
That is why most States do not allow non expanding military style rounds to hunt big game. This is from the Illinois hunting regs. for hunting with handguns.
Quote:
 For handguns, a bottleneck centerfire cartridge
of .30 caliber or larger with a case length not exceeding
1.4 inches, or a straight-walled centerfire
cartridge of .30 caliber or larger, both of
which must be available as a factory load with
the published ballistic tables of the manufacturer
showing a capability of at least 500 foot pounds
of energy at the muzzle. Note:There is no case
length limit for straight-walled cartridges.
 Non-expanding, military-style full metal jacket
bullets cannot be used to harvest white-tailed
deer; only soft point or expanding bullets (including
copper/ copper-alloy rounds designed
for hunting) are legal ammunition

As you can see, they believe there is a difference. If you shoot a fox with too much gun, you have a small entry wound. And a fist sized exit wound. The bullet doesn't expand that much, usually doubles in size. Or just watch video of a bullet going through ballistic gel. You can see an expanded wound channel. If there is research on hunting rounds I would really like to read it. If it was all about shot placement than everyone could hunt with a .22LR.


P Side, I agree with you. Do stay away from the term "hydrostatic" shock though. That one is FILLED with controversy...means different things to different folks.
When it comes to killing/stopping power, there IS more to the equation besides energy, but energy (impact energy to be more precise) is a BIG PART of the equation no doubt. As far as the bow and arrow comparison is concerned, I think it's a dead herring. First of all, the arrow is a very poor stopper to put it mildly and no one but no one ever thinks of using a bow and arrow to STOP dangerous game. Now, I wonder why? Could it be the PH's know something about the difference of killing and stopping? Heck, a couple months back, I was watching a video about bowhunting coyotes. I think there were a good 20 or more coyotes taken, just about every single one was hit well. Only two coyotes went down where they stood. One was hit in the head and the other I believe got spined. The others made tracks like there was no tomorrow. And these were double-lung'ed hits too! I saw that over and over and over again. Yes, I KNOW that everything up and including elephant has been taken by the bow and arrow...BUT...that video (and my eyes) didn't lie! The performance I saw would have been deemed mighty POOR had it delivered by a rifle!--Mike


Edited by Mike Pearson (05/06/10 09:03 AM)
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Giving is living and living is giving.

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#1595581 - 05/07/10 04:37 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: Mike Pearson]
greydog Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 124
Loc: Pa.
Energy=Mass does apply. But not all the time. Would you rather have a 22 caliber bullet in a coyotes Brain fired from a 22 Magnum at 100 yards or a 45 caliber bullet fired at 100 yards from a 458 Winchester Magnum in the leg of a coyote?? It is not about energy. It is about bullet placement when hunting.
_________________________
I've got a shotgun, rifle and four-wheel drive and country boy can survive... Hank Williams Jr.

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#1595617 - 05/07/10 06:27 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: greydog]
nightcaller Online
Die Hard Member

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 918
Loc: CO
oh great. not another one of these. bullet placement is great but if you shoot fmjs it does significantly less damage than an expanding bullet.

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#1595783 - 05/07/10 10:46 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: greydog]
Mike Pearson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 305
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: greydog
Energy=Mass does apply. But not all the time. Would you rather have a 22 caliber bullet in a coyotes Brain fired from a 22 Magnum at 100 yards or a 45 caliber bullet fired at 100 yards from a 458 Winchester Magnum in the leg of a coyote?? It is not about energy. It is about bullet placement when hunting.


Why does it have to be a .22 bullet from a .22 Magnum at 100 yards? I knew a guy who killed a deer instantly with a .20 air rifle at 20 yards. The deer had been hit by a car and my friend decided to end the deer's misery. All he had was the air rifle in his truck. He shot it between the eye and the ear. The doe dropped dead instantly. The pellet was found just under the skin on the opposite side. If that had been a .177 pellet, the deer would have been just as dead, just as quick. So what's my point? When you're discussing killing/stopping power OF A CARTRIDGE, bringing up brain shots is really a red herring! When you're discussing placement of the bullet, you are discussing the experience (or lack thereof) and discipline OF THE SHOOTER and NOT the performance of the cartridge. However, and conversely, when we are discussing the killing/stopping power of a cartridge, we are discussing IT'S performance relative to the clean, quick, humane taking of game, predators, etc.. Basically, we are talking of chest shots (heart/lung). Why? For several reasons, first being that the heart/lungs shot is a much larger target. That's a big reason right there. Hunting conditions being what they are, a cartridge that can make clean kills on the LARGEST of vital organs is definitely a plus in our favor. Second, shots to the head of an animal DO NOT always reach the brain. Sometimes an errant bullet can take out a jaw and sometimes, on a frontal shot, a bullet can skid and be deflected. I remember shooting a big raccoon in a trap with .22 shorts, two hollowpoints and one solid. Took me three shots to get the job done at point blank range. I was shooting it from the front into the head. The third shot was the charm. Later when I skinned the critter, I actually SAW the skid marks on the skull where the bullet deflected away from the brain. In a hunting situation, I want a cartridge that can get the job done cleanly, quickly and humanely on a VERY CONSISTENT BASIS using well placed chest shots. For a brain shot, ALL I NEED IS PENETRATION. My friend's .20 airgun doe was killed instantly. In other words, not even a .460 Weatherby could have killed that deer any quicker! A .20 dome pellet makes a mighty small hole...in the brain, mighty small is still big enough.
We don't HUNT deer with .20 air rifles, or .22 shorts and hopefully, not even with .22 Magnums. We hunt them (and for the vast majority of hunters on this forum I'll wager the same is true) with rifles, shotguns, handguns and bows that can CLEANLY take them with chest shots.
Anytime you take a chest shot, you're going to need enough killing/stopping power from the cartridge/bullet combination. Anytime you discuss killing/stopping power, you're really discussing (IF THE DISCUSSION IS TO BE MEANINGFUL THAT IS) chest shots.
Chest shots require more, MUCH MORE, than just penetration alone. They require a wound channel WIDE ENOUGH (as well as deep enough) in order for the kill to be quick, clean and humane. In other words, chest shots require SUFFICIENT PERFORMANCE from the cartridge/bullet combination....and energy on impact is a PART of that performance. Hope this was helpful. --- Mike


Edited by Mike Pearson (05/07/10 10:54 PM)
_________________________
Giving is living and living is giving.

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#1595795 - 05/07/10 11:09 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: Recko555]
Mike Pearson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 305
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Recko555
I can't believe you guys put that much work into an internet pissing contest, but whatever.
I have heard of 400 ft.lbs is what to shoot for, but don't know if it is true.


That 400 ft.lbs. figure was written by Rick Jaimison who used to write for Shooting Times. Rick was and is one EXTREMELY savvy writer and, for one season, actually made his entire living on nothing else but called-in coyote hides. It was just something he had to do to see if he could do it. He'd hunted coyotes since he was a kid and was mighty adept at it...but, still wanted that challenge. He wrote a book on the subject too (long out of print as far as I know). Rick wasn't saying that 400 was precisely the minimum. What I remember from his articles where he used that figure, he was delving from his (considerable) experience and came up with what he felt was a USEFUL number. Of course, different bullets at that same 400 fps can and will render different performance but he assumed that the reader would use a bullet that would perform properly at that impact energy. I have that book and read many articles by the man and I can tell you, he was a middle of the roader in his choice of cartridges and bullets. The rifle he used for that full time season was a Remington 788 in .22-.250 with a 3x-9x scope, Canjar trigger and 52 grain Match hollowpoint bullets. He took chest shots only and was adamant about that. The 400 figure was meant to be helpful and useful, not definitive. ---Mike
_________________________
Giving is living and living is giving.

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#1595874 - 05/08/10 01:17 AM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: Mike Pearson]
tunered Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 08/20/09
Posts: 621
Loc: S E Ohio
I seen my brother in law shoot a dog broadside at 40 yards and down he went, waiting for the other one to come clear, i shot the other one, down plop. As we quit calling to go get the dogs the first one jumps up and heads for the next county, it was shot with a 50gr vmax out of a Ruger compact 16 1/4in barrel, so not really high velocity, moral of story, I believe the [so called energy knocked this dog out but did not penetrate at all, I believe the bullet has to match the velocity or the so called energy is wasted. ed
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#1595954 - 05/08/10 09:05 AM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: tunered]
Mike Pearson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 305
Loc: Michigan

Thanks Tunered! Great example! A bullet has to match the velocity or the energy gets wasted...great point. You got that coyote but I'm sure you wouldn't want to hang your hat on zero penetration, shot-in, shot-out! Same thing applies with using fmj bullets or solids on medium game. Heck, I remember shooting about a half a dozen fox squirrels with .22 LR (solids) in the chest before it finally dawned on me that I had ALL the energy I needed; I just needed a better TRANSFER of that energy. In my situation, I was given a brick of .22 LR solids for Christmas and figured to use them up hunting before I switched to hollowpoints. Good intentions...bad idea! Those squirrels (all 6) acted like they received no hit at all. All six times, I shot for behind the shoulder. All six remained totally motionless as though no hit had occurred. Through my scope, I could see no indication of impact. All six squirrels got a follow-up in the head and yes, all six squirrels had a neat little bullet hole in the lungs. Yes, fox squirrels ARE mighty tough little critters, about as tough ounce for ounce as it gets. A .22 LR high velocity gets somewhere around 140-150 ft.lbs. at the muzzle and these shots were taken at around 20-30 yards. Plenty of energy but not nearly enough energy TRANSFER to the vitals! Contrast that mediocre performance with that of any .22 LR hollowpoint load (high velocity or subsonic) and the difference is like night and day. For that matter, contrast it with my Beeman RX-1 using .20 Crow Magnum pellets at 20ft.l.bs. and my Beeman Kodiak using .25 Crow Magnum pellets (or any other pellet for that matter...25 is wicked in airguns) at 25+ ft.lbs. on fox squirrels at the same ranges using the same shot placement. The airguns with only a fraction of the LR's energy are truly WICKED killers on 2-3 pound fox squirrels taking them with authority. The Crow Magnum pellets expanded well in the squirrels out to well over 30 yards.
Energy charts are and can be useful/helpful but need to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt and a healthy dose of common sense! Thanks for posting! --- Mike
_________________________
Giving is living and living is giving.

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#1596160 - 05/08/10 04:46 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: podunkcowboy]
greydog Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 07/16/04
Posts: 124
Loc: Pa.
Shot a deer with a AIR GUN?????????????? Is that even legal in any state in the Union??? If bullet placement is not important then just use a 155MM Howitzer. You only need to be close then.
_________________________
I've got a shotgun, rifle and four-wheel drive and country boy can survive... Hank Williams Jr.

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#1596212 - 05/08/10 07:34 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: greydog]
Mike Pearson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 305
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: greydog
Shot a deer with a AIR GUN?????????????? Is that even legal in any state in the Union??? If bullet placement is not important then just use a 155MM Howitzer. You only need to be close then.


Actually, it IS legal to use some of the larger bore PCP airguns on deer (.45, .50). Google search the matter and you'll find any number of articles on the use of big-bore airguns on big game up to and even exceeding the size of deer. Heck, search this forum and you'll find hunters who hunt successfully with these types of airguns. Still, I take your point. The type of airgun my friend used is NOT allowed in any state to my knowledge. With that said, it has to be emphasized that he was NOT hunting deer. He was dispatching/mercy killing a deer that had ALREADY been hit by a car and beyond the repair of a vet. He did this with the only gun in his vehicle. Be that as it may, I brought it up to make a point. Yes, placement is important...the most important part of bringing an animal down cleanly. Re-read my post, that was emphasized over and over. Still, when talking about the killing/stopping power OF THE CARTRIDGE ITSELF, you're not talking about brain shots anymore than you are non-vital shots. ---- Mike


Edited by Mike Pearson (05/08/10 07:35 PM)
_________________________
Giving is living and living is giving.

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#1596234 - 05/08/10 08:33 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: FurFlyin']
shanedogg Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1548
Loc: arizona
+1
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c'mon! Just one more stand!

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#1596377 - 05/09/10 12:03 AM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: shanedogg]
Chris_Brice Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 1579
Loc: Iowa
Energy doesn't kill. Wound channels, shock and blood loss do (i.e. damage). A combination of energy, bullet design and location of hit is used to create what kills. Choose poorly in any of these factors and you limit your ability. Is there a set number for acceptable energy? More than likely yes but all I know is what works all the time (think rocket launcher), what works most of the time (think centerfire with proper bullets) and what doesn't work most of the time (think rimfire).

CB

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#1596821 - 05/09/10 09:37 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: Chris_Brice]
shanedogg Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1548
Loc: arizona
wouldn't have shock w/ out significant energy, fast bullets= hydrostatic shock= terminal wounds imo......
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c'mon! Just one more stand!

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#1596901 - 05/09/10 11:47 PM Re: Energy to kill a coyote [Re: shanedogg]
Byron South Offline
Pm Advertiser Retired PM Staff

Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 2810
Loc: Texas

Mike,

I agree with what you have said.

Leon,

I've read the same stuff as you have posted as well. I've also read all the other as I sure you have. These guys have some great information based on science, lab test, examining actual bodies, as well as eye witness testimony. Their conclusions can't be dismissed.

With this said I have also seen what Mike is referring to as "energy transfer". I'm quite sure you have too and agree this is an important thing to have when you’re after quick humane kills.

To me this "energy transfer" is a obtained when you use a properly designed bullet, move it along at the proper velocity where it will perform as designed (within a certain velocity window), and then put this bullet in the proper place.

I've seen a fair amount of game shot, I would say many thousands. From squirrels all the way up to bear. I've seen lots of stuff shot with arrows of all kinds. I've seen animals also shot with just about every caliber under the sun. Some have been shot with what I would call inadequate calibers and some shot with cartridges that were designed for MUCH larger game. I've seen deer, and coyotes with their hearts shot out run well over 100 yards, and I've seen both shot through the lungs drop dead and never kick. After witnessing all these animals shot I've come to some pretty firm conclusions as to what works. As a result I also know what I won't use or recommend. These studies and experiences of writers is useful and while I agree with some of what they say, I also apply what I know.

So here is what I know and recommend to the OP as far as coyotes are concerned. Get you a good 22 centerfire from 223 up and shoot good 55 to 65 grain bullets that are designed for shooting game and this will work well. These cartridges create enough energy and have the right kind of projectile at the right velocity to reliably kill every coyote at reasonable ranges as long as you put it in his chest. Don't be drug into trying to shoot coyotes or any animal with the smallest caliber, or lightest bullet posibble. Remember you need penetration, and energy transfer for good clean kills. This is not an arrow that kills by rapid blood loss. This is and instrument that kills with energy transfer to the vital organs or disruption of the central nerve system.

The force that is often referred to in ballistics charts as "energy" is just a simple calculation using weight and velocity. While this is a somewhat useful way of comparing one cartridge to another is shouldn't be used and a measure of killing power or effectiveness ruler. As I have mentioned above there are other factors such as proper bullet weights, bullets construction, and their velocity which are very important and should also be considered.

For you guys that don't believe in Hydrostatic shock. You should watch what a 50 grain v-max leaving at about 3600 fps will do to a prairie dog. He is not nearly as resilient as the rubber ball used in Leon's analogy. I've witnessed hydrostatic shocks effect on large whitetails shot. In slow motion you can see the ripples over their entire body. When this happens you can also see the damage while cleaning them or by doing a post mortem. When you are using a good bullet and it fully penetrates or is found whole or close to it under the far skin this tells me that it only punched a narrow hole through the lungs. But yet the peripheral damage would suggest and at least to me prove that the shock wave caused by the energy transfer was the only thing that could have caused this. Arrow don't make jelly out of internal organs, good bullets at good velocities placed there do, thus the term hydrostatic shock.

Man I rambled on this post but it's late and I was interrupted a couple of times. I'm by no means and expert but I do have plenty of real word experience shooting animals and seeing animals shot. I haven't meant to step on anyone’s toes just sharing my thoughts.

Good Hunting, and God Bless,

Byron


Edited by Byron South (05/09/10 11:58 PM)
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