by any other name will still stink the same:
http://www.breitbart.tv/obamas-budget-di...th-care-levels/
http://www.breitbart.tv/obamas-budget-di...th-care-levels/
A Death Panel
- Thread starter Stu Farish
- Start date
RedneckRepublic
New member
I take issue with this video on several levels. First of all the video skips, skips, and skips several times throughout, picking only a few snippets but not allowing for the full picture. Check out the full video clip here:
http://www.economicclub.org/
He is answering a question about national debt and even starts out by pre-empting what he is saying by explaining that projecting even five years into the future doesn’t give us a very clear idea of where we will be with the deficit. He makes the point that our national debt is growing because our health care cost have grown and continue to grow at disproportional rates. Thus, they want to focus on quality not quantity. I know a little about this because when I was pregnant with my son in the third trimester my doctor set appointments for me every three days. For about the last two to three weeks he did nothing more than check my vitals and stick a baby monitor on me, and say everything was fine. Why? Because every time I went to this doctor I was forced by my insurance company to pay a $25 co-pay. Thus, I was paying for this man’s fancy house and car because he had to base his services on quantity and not quality.
Another concern about this video is that you are calling this panel a death panel, but that is not true. Check out the following article which explains at the very end that the Independent Medicare Advisory Board is not a death panel and quotes directly from “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” bill H.R. 3590.
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/01/medicare-board-unrepealable/
http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act-as-passed.pdf
Also if you want to see what was going on during the healthcare debate in Washington here is an pretty good piece by Frontline.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...source=proglist
http://www.economicclub.org/
He is answering a question about national debt and even starts out by pre-empting what he is saying by explaining that projecting even five years into the future doesn’t give us a very clear idea of where we will be with the deficit. He makes the point that our national debt is growing because our health care cost have grown and continue to grow at disproportional rates. Thus, they want to focus on quality not quantity. I know a little about this because when I was pregnant with my son in the third trimester my doctor set appointments for me every three days. For about the last two to three weeks he did nothing more than check my vitals and stick a baby monitor on me, and say everything was fine. Why? Because every time I went to this doctor I was forced by my insurance company to pay a $25 co-pay. Thus, I was paying for this man’s fancy house and car because he had to base his services on quantity and not quality.
Another concern about this video is that you are calling this panel a death panel, but that is not true. Check out the following article which explains at the very end that the Independent Medicare Advisory Board is not a death panel and quotes directly from “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” bill H.R. 3590.
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/01/medicare-board-unrepealable/
http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act-as-passed.pdf
Also if you want to see what was going on during the healthcare debate in Washington here is an pretty good piece by Frontline.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...source=proglist
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ExpertMarksman
New member
He carries his pistol in a belt rig and has his CCW!
Good hunting!
Rugershooter
New member
RedneckRepublic,
"I know a little about this because when I was pregnant with my son in the third trimester my doctor set appointments for me every three days. For about the last two to three weeks he did nothing more than check my vitals and stick a baby monitor on me, and say everything was fine. Why? Because every time I went to this doctor I was forced by my insurance company to pay a $25 co-pay. Thus, I was paying for this man’s fancy house and car because he had to base his services on quantity and not quality."
I think your concept of quantity and quality is reversed. I look at it as he was giving you quality care. Quantity would be trying to see as many patients as possible and not checking each one out carefully. I do think every three days was excessive, but I am not a doctor. My wife went to the doctor about every two weeks in the third trimester, then every week for the last month. Maybe he suspected something might be wrong and didn't want to worry you without knowing for sure. You could have chosen not to go to so many appointments, but you chose to go because you trusted your doctor's opinion.
If there is really a concern for rising health care costs then look at the real causes. Someone has to pay for all the free care that so many illegals get at the ERs. These costs have to be recovered somehow if you want a hospital to remain open. These costs just get added to those that do pay. Correcting this along with tort reform and the problem with be solved without the government control.
"I know a little about this because when I was pregnant with my son in the third trimester my doctor set appointments for me every three days. For about the last two to three weeks he did nothing more than check my vitals and stick a baby monitor on me, and say everything was fine. Why? Because every time I went to this doctor I was forced by my insurance company to pay a $25 co-pay. Thus, I was paying for this man’s fancy house and car because he had to base his services on quantity and not quality."
I think your concept of quantity and quality is reversed. I look at it as he was giving you quality care. Quantity would be trying to see as many patients as possible and not checking each one out carefully. I do think every three days was excessive, but I am not a doctor. My wife went to the doctor about every two weeks in the third trimester, then every week for the last month. Maybe he suspected something might be wrong and didn't want to worry you without knowing for sure. You could have chosen not to go to so many appointments, but you chose to go because you trusted your doctor's opinion.
If there is really a concern for rising health care costs then look at the real causes. Someone has to pay for all the free care that so many illegals get at the ERs. These costs have to be recovered somehow if you want a hospital to remain open. These costs just get added to those that do pay. Correcting this along with tort reform and the problem with be solved without the government control.
RedneckRepublic
New member
It was quantity because he was more interested in the money, and I had to come whether or not he was there. So in other words, there were times when the nurses were basically doing his job. Again, you don’t know bud! If this is quality service then that is a serious problem. I live in the Appalachian Mountains and we know about the masses, which do not have healthcare and have to rely on free services. Many of these people are not bums or illegals in this video, they simply cannot afford to go to a doctor because of how expensive it is, and the fact they have no insurance. Now you might attempt to say that this is how healthcare is going to be for all of us? This is untrue because rationing of care has been going on for a long, long time in America, and the poor cannot afford it. It was not invented by Obama or Congress it was invented by greedy insurance companies who have found ways to basically screw, for lack of a better word, everyone. Here is an example, my father is a diabetic and is so bad off from years of not going to see a doctor that by the time they caught it his kidneys had already quite working. So he now has insurance partially thanks to the state (which he worked with for a few years) but because of all his complications he has to take tons of medicine. One of his medicines without insurance cost around $3.00. However, if his insurance pays for it, it will cost him $30.00 down the road. We caught this little trick and thus he pays for the medicine out of pocket. Yet I am sure there are tons of elderly people, who are caught in this trap who have not figured out in many cases the insurance is more costly than just buying the medicine out of pocket. When he went to the dentist to have three teeth pulled they told him it would cost him over $1300.00 even with his insurance and that it would all have to be paid up front.
I understand what Congress and the President were attempting to do, although I don’t agree with everything in the bill. We live in the richest nation in the world, and yet we have third world conditions in many of the poorer areas, and there is little or no healthcare in many of those regions.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/watch_excl.html
This is the largest free clinic and it is in a rural area with very few people in it. Before you ask all these people are from this spread out region but again many have no healthcare and they are not bums! Every year they have to turn people away. My idea of quantity and quality are not reversed by any means. Where I went to the doctor there was a fairly large waiting room. He was the only doctor and it stayed full and there were times when it could be difficult to find a seat. Don’t tell me he doesn’t get paid for each individual patient because he is charging their insurance as well as the co-pay. Every time a patient comes he gets to charge. You could be like our local hospital and charge even when patient don’t come. Of course, it is fraud but many do it.
I understand what Congress and the President were attempting to do, although I don’t agree with everything in the bill. We live in the richest nation in the world, and yet we have third world conditions in many of the poorer areas, and there is little or no healthcare in many of those regions.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/watch_excl.html
This is the largest free clinic and it is in a rural area with very few people in it. Before you ask all these people are from this spread out region but again many have no healthcare and they are not bums! Every year they have to turn people away. My idea of quantity and quality are not reversed by any means. Where I went to the doctor there was a fairly large waiting room. He was the only doctor and it stayed full and there were times when it could be difficult to find a seat. Don’t tell me he doesn’t get paid for each individual patient because he is charging their insurance as well as the co-pay. Every time a patient comes he gets to charge. You could be like our local hospital and charge even when patient don’t come. Of course, it is fraud but many do it.
Rugershooter
New member
I will not agrue the fact that doctors are interested in the money, but how do you know he was doing this for the money and not some other possible development problem you may have had? Do you define quality as longer time spent at one time? He most likely was able to gather the information needed in the amount of time he spent. Why spend more time "just to make it look better" when he could be with someone else.
If part of the health care problem can be cured by controlling greedy insurance companies, than lets do that insted of moving the health care rationing to greedy politions. I am able to sue a insurance company. How can I sue the government if I get turned down for a medical proceedure?
I don't mean to sound cruel to your father or to other people in a bad situation so look at this as an example, not an attack on an individual. Your father neglected to see a doctor. That was his choice. I hardly go to the doctor also and it will probably catch up to me sometime. His costs are higher, like you stated, because he took a gamble and lost. Now his health care costs are too high to afford. Is it the cost that is the problem? or is it the fact that he neglected to get proper care when he was younger?
Again, I believe health care costs can be controlled if the other problems are fixed (like tort reform and illegal aliens). People have to get there priorities straight. How many people say that can't afford health insurance, but that have an Ipod, cell phone, high dollar tennis shoes, most likly an X-Box or Wii connected to their big screen tv. If these people were to purchase health insurance, it would bring the insurance costs down. They should not be forced to buy insurance, but they should have to live with the consequences if they should gamble and loose. Yes there are some people that can't afford health insurance, but there are alot more people that are looking for a free ride.
In your last paragraph you stated "Don’t tell me he doesn’t get paid for each individual patient because he is charging their insurance as well as the co-pay. Every time a patient comes he gets to charge." How do you know all these people have insurance and pay their bill?
If part of the health care problem can be cured by controlling greedy insurance companies, than lets do that insted of moving the health care rationing to greedy politions. I am able to sue a insurance company. How can I sue the government if I get turned down for a medical proceedure?
I don't mean to sound cruel to your father or to other people in a bad situation so look at this as an example, not an attack on an individual. Your father neglected to see a doctor. That was his choice. I hardly go to the doctor also and it will probably catch up to me sometime. His costs are higher, like you stated, because he took a gamble and lost. Now his health care costs are too high to afford. Is it the cost that is the problem? or is it the fact that he neglected to get proper care when he was younger?
Again, I believe health care costs can be controlled if the other problems are fixed (like tort reform and illegal aliens). People have to get there priorities straight. How many people say that can't afford health insurance, but that have an Ipod, cell phone, high dollar tennis shoes, most likly an X-Box or Wii connected to their big screen tv. If these people were to purchase health insurance, it would bring the insurance costs down. They should not be forced to buy insurance, but they should have to live with the consequences if they should gamble and loose. Yes there are some people that can't afford health insurance, but there are alot more people that are looking for a free ride.
In your last paragraph you stated "Don’t tell me he doesn’t get paid for each individual patient because he is charging their insurance as well as the co-pay. Every time a patient comes he gets to charge." How do you know all these people have insurance and pay their bill?
Bill B.
New member
Here in Arkansas we have what is titled ARKids First. It is insurance for kids that families can't afford or any other insurance. I think it's a good idea, but it is abused like any other government program I pay for.
I've known two families with their kids on ARKids First. The first one owned his own business and his kids raced atv's on the weekends. Hmmmmm, bad choice?
The second owned his own business as well. He was a member of the local country club and played golf two or three times per week. Hmmmm, bad choice?
Everyone wants to make poor choices and let their neighbors pay for it. From the top corporate excecutives to the young women having sex and babies outside of marriage. Poor decisions they want the American taxpayer to take care of.
I've known two families with their kids on ARKids First. The first one owned his own business and his kids raced atv's on the weekends. Hmmmmm, bad choice?
The second owned his own business as well. He was a member of the local country club and played golf two or three times per week. Hmmmm, bad choice?
Everyone wants to make poor choices and let their neighbors pay for it. From the top corporate excecutives to the young women having sex and babies outside of marriage. Poor decisions they want the American taxpayer to take care of.
RedneckRepublic
New member
Actually, I do know that there was nothing wrong. When my baby was born he scored a 10 on both APGAR tests. He has never had a moment’s problem and has only been sick on occasion. I ask the doctor several times why he wanted me to come every week three times a week. His only excuse was that you are close (not that I was dilated because I did ask). I’ve talked to other women some with more than one kid and they seem to think with him this is just something he does. I’m not saying he is a bad doctor I just don’t agree with the idea of running to the doctor when there is nothing wrong (and nothing was wrong). Think as well it wasn’t too long ago that women didn’t go to the hospital to have babies and instead they often had midwifes who delivered. Although I by no means am advocating going back to that sometimes hospital’s and doctors really only seem concerned about money.
“Here in Arkansas we have what is titled ARKids First. It is insurance for kids that families can't afford or any other insurance. I think it's a good idea, but it is abused like any other government program I pay for.
I've known two families with their kids on ARKids First. The first one owned his own business and his kids raced atv's on the weekends. Hmmmmm, bad choice?
The second owned his own business as well. He was a member of the local country club and played golf two or three times per week. Hmmmm, bad choice?
Everyone wants to make poor choices and let their neighbors pay for it. From the top corporate excecutives to the young women having sex and babies outside of marriage. Poor decisions they want the American taxpayer to take care of.”
Yes, Bill but there are two programs ARKids A is for low income and is a comprehensive package. ARKids B is families with higher incomes. A family of three for plan A has to make under $24,352 and the same family for plan B has to make under $36,620. Now that said I don’t know how anyone who owns a business (unless it is a small independent business) can make under that amount. Sort of the same as FAMIS here in Virginia except there is no lower bracket. A family of three must make under $36,620. Although we have a comprehensive Medicaid for children which makes up for those in the really low bracket.
From what you have said, and I must base this own your word, I think it is a shame to take advantage of a system when there are people out their that are poorer (a.k.a. do not own IPod’s, business, atv’s, television with a hundred plus channels, belong to the local country club, etc) and do need the help. Although you seem to think that it is all corporate executives or unmarried women if you watch the video of the health clinic in my above post you will find many of the uninsured are hard working people who pay their taxes just like you. Personally, I have no problems helping an unmarried woman with a baby get out of a bad situation and better her life. Many do it without getting much help at all from the government. It is easy to judge others Bill when we just don’t know.
“Here in Arkansas we have what is titled ARKids First. It is insurance for kids that families can't afford or any other insurance. I think it's a good idea, but it is abused like any other government program I pay for.
I've known two families with their kids on ARKids First. The first one owned his own business and his kids raced atv's on the weekends. Hmmmmm, bad choice?
The second owned his own business as well. He was a member of the local country club and played golf two or three times per week. Hmmmm, bad choice?
Everyone wants to make poor choices and let their neighbors pay for it. From the top corporate excecutives to the young women having sex and babies outside of marriage. Poor decisions they want the American taxpayer to take care of.”
Yes, Bill but there are two programs ARKids A is for low income and is a comprehensive package. ARKids B is families with higher incomes. A family of three for plan A has to make under $24,352 and the same family for plan B has to make under $36,620. Now that said I don’t know how anyone who owns a business (unless it is a small independent business) can make under that amount. Sort of the same as FAMIS here in Virginia except there is no lower bracket. A family of three must make under $36,620. Although we have a comprehensive Medicaid for children which makes up for those in the really low bracket.
From what you have said, and I must base this own your word, I think it is a shame to take advantage of a system when there are people out their that are poorer (a.k.a. do not own IPod’s, business, atv’s, television with a hundred plus channels, belong to the local country club, etc) and do need the help. Although you seem to think that it is all corporate executives or unmarried women if you watch the video of the health clinic in my above post you will find many of the uninsured are hard working people who pay their taxes just like you. Personally, I have no problems helping an unmarried woman with a baby get out of a bad situation and better her life. Many do it without getting much help at all from the government. It is easy to judge others Bill when we just don’t know.
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doggin coyotes
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: RedneckRepublicPersonally, I have no problems helping an unmarried woman with a baby get out of a bad situation and better her life.
Personally, I don't either.
What I do have a problem with is this same unmarried woman having a second, third or fourth baby and I'm still helping her!
Personally, I think I've helped way more than my share of those unmarried leeches.
Personally, I don't either.
What I do have a problem with is this same unmarried woman having a second, third or fourth baby and I'm still helping her!
Personally, I think I've helped way more than my share of those unmarried leeches.
Bill B.
New member
RR,
Wow, you spend your spare time looking into another states welfare programs based off my post. That's rather interesting. Or is it that you have an unending need to be right?
You make the assumption that we are all hard hearted and don't want to help anyone. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think you will find that most every conservative thinker on this board is a generous soul to a point, myself included.
If you are down, I would love to get you back on your feet. However, I don't think I should have to hold you up for the rest of your life.
I also have a mother in law and sister in law that draw disability and live in government housing. Their main disabilities? One drank too much the other was hooked on drugs for too long and both are chronically lazy. Whos fault is that? And yes, you will have to take me on my word on that one, too. However, I think you will find I was raised to speak the truth.
I know there are a lot of people out there that need help but I think there are as many or more that create a situation and then want someone else to shoulder the responsibility. You are either a producer or a free rider. Too many free riders these days and they are making more just like them every day.
Wow, you spend your spare time looking into another states welfare programs based off my post. That's rather interesting. Or is it that you have an unending need to be right?
You make the assumption that we are all hard hearted and don't want to help anyone. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think you will find that most every conservative thinker on this board is a generous soul to a point, myself included.
If you are down, I would love to get you back on your feet. However, I don't think I should have to hold you up for the rest of your life.
I also have a mother in law and sister in law that draw disability and live in government housing. Their main disabilities? One drank too much the other was hooked on drugs for too long and both are chronically lazy. Whos fault is that? And yes, you will have to take me on my word on that one, too. However, I think you will find I was raised to speak the truth.
I know there are a lot of people out there that need help but I think there are as many or more that create a situation and then want someone else to shoulder the responsibility. You are either a producer or a free rider. Too many free riders these days and they are making more just like them every day.
Rugershooter
New member
RedneckRepublic,
You said that you knew nothing was wrong with your child because of the APGAR score. Did you or your doctor know this score before the child was born? Hind sight is always 20/20. You wanted to make sure your child was going to be alright, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but you had the choice to not go to so many visits. If you knew at the time he was doing it for the money, just don't go. If something would have been wrong and he didn't catch it in time, would your lawyer been there to see him the next day? He may have did it just for the money. He may have did it to cover his backside. Again, tort reform may have prevented this situation.
You said that you knew nothing was wrong with your child because of the APGAR score. Did you or your doctor know this score before the child was born? Hind sight is always 20/20. You wanted to make sure your child was going to be alright, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but you had the choice to not go to so many visits. If you knew at the time he was doing it for the money, just don't go. If something would have been wrong and he didn't catch it in time, would your lawyer been there to see him the next day? He may have did it just for the money. He may have did it to cover his backside. Again, tort reform may have prevented this situation.
RedneckRepublic,
Doctors are not god or the law, they perform a service. If you had issues with what the Dr. was doing, you should have question his/her care. If you did not agree with his/her standard of care you should have fired him/her. If you felt you were being over treated you should have asked why. So the only person responsible for his over treating you is you. And your insurance doesn't force you to do anything. You enter into a contract with the insurance company. It is as simple as that. If you don't like the contract find one that better suits you. Yes there are doctors out there that are more interested in money than patient care. I personally would never use one; I would fire them and find another provider. Also if you know your hospital is committing fraud you should turn them in. You can even get a part of what is recouped if it is Medicare or Medicade fraud. I don't know how it is where you live, but I live in a part of the country that also is poor. The amount of services I provide for reduced fees, no fees or actually cost me money would probably shock most people. Believe me there are much easier ways to make a living. Most doctors do what they do because we care. Should they make a good living, yes. The money and sacrifice that is made before they ever get out of med school is tremendous, then they still have invest in a community to start a practice, all to be in an industry that is constantly lowering provider reimbursement. So providers are being forced to see more patients to maintain a decent living. Yes there are doctors out there that make a great living, but most Doctors working in rural communities could make a better living doing something else. So when you complain about your doctors clinics being overcrowded you ought to be thankful they are even there. They could have chose a specialty that pays a lot better, has a lot less liability and dang sure better hours than OB. So the next time you see him/her give them a big hug and tell them how much you appreciate the fact that you delivered a healthy baby.
drscott
Doctors are not god or the law, they perform a service. If you had issues with what the Dr. was doing, you should have question his/her care. If you did not agree with his/her standard of care you should have fired him/her. If you felt you were being over treated you should have asked why. So the only person responsible for his over treating you is you. And your insurance doesn't force you to do anything. You enter into a contract with the insurance company. It is as simple as that. If you don't like the contract find one that better suits you. Yes there are doctors out there that are more interested in money than patient care. I personally would never use one; I would fire them and find another provider. Also if you know your hospital is committing fraud you should turn them in. You can even get a part of what is recouped if it is Medicare or Medicade fraud. I don't know how it is where you live, but I live in a part of the country that also is poor. The amount of services I provide for reduced fees, no fees or actually cost me money would probably shock most people. Believe me there are much easier ways to make a living. Most doctors do what they do because we care. Should they make a good living, yes. The money and sacrifice that is made before they ever get out of med school is tremendous, then they still have invest in a community to start a practice, all to be in an industry that is constantly lowering provider reimbursement. So providers are being forced to see more patients to maintain a decent living. Yes there are doctors out there that make a great living, but most Doctors working in rural communities could make a better living doing something else. So when you complain about your doctors clinics being overcrowded you ought to be thankful they are even there. They could have chose a specialty that pays a lot better, has a lot less liability and dang sure better hours than OB. So the next time you see him/her give them a big hug and tell them how much you appreciate the fact that you delivered a healthy baby.
drscott
RedneckRepublic
New member
Originally Posted By: RugershooterRedneckRepublic,
You said that you knew nothing was wrong with your child because of the APGAR score. Did you or your doctor know this score before the child was born? Hind sight is always 20/20. You wanted to make sure your child was going to be alright, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but you had the choice to not go to so many visits. If you knew at the time he was doing it for the money, just don't go. If something would have been wrong and he didn't catch it in time, would your lawyer been there to see him the next day? He may have did it just for the money. He may have did it to cover his backside. Again, tort reform may have prevented this situation.
Let me make my point one final time! No he was fine and that is not hindsight. I would not have gotten a lawyer because it would have been pointless. Let’s do a what if that actually happened in my husband's family.
His nephew woke up one night sick as a dog! He never liked hospitals but he knew he had to go. He went in and this doctor jumped up and said we've done all of these test and here is what is wrong: you have appendicitis. His wife was a nurse and she questioned the diagnosis but the doctor insisted. he made the point that they had a simple procedure to take care of the problem and then they would send him home. So within 24 hours he is at his house and he gets up to ge3t some water because he still isn't feeling good. He falls down in his hallway and dies! His wife knows something was wrong from the start and being a nurse knows she must move fast after he dies. She has a complete autopsy done, hires a lawyer, and since she knew many of the nurses gets them to do interviews. Several nurses having no knowledge of the other's testimony make this same statement of the fact that they had told the doctor he was wrong and that this man was about to have a major heart attack! His excuse was he made more money off of the other procedure than have open heart surgery. This was several years ago, yet his widow and daughter who have fought him tooth and nail have never seen a penny. Not only that he has continued to practice medicine with no repercussions!! Thus I do have quite a bit of knowledge about doctors who are only in the profession to line their pockets.
Personally, I don't either.
What I do have a problem with is this same unmarried woman having a second, third or fourth baby and I'm still helping her!
Personally, I think I've helped way more than my share of those unmarried leeches.
Those lovely Christian values of judge not least the be judged coming right to the surface their bud. I don't like the leeches the problem is thinning the heard and how it is done. Who gets to say who will get benefits and who will not? YOU I guess!!
Wow, you spend your spare time looking into another states welfare programs based off my post. That's rather interesting. Or is it that you have an unending need to be right?
Take it from an old Appalachian woman who was smarter than any of us. You might be born stupid but you don't have to remain that way at least that is what my grandmother always used to tell me. I think she always got pissed off by all the ignorance in America that she seen and how nobody was embarrassed by it. It is not a need to be right Bill, but to make sure the facts are out there when an discussion is going on.
"To Generalize is to be an Idiot. To Particularize is the Alone Distinction of Merit." -Blake
If you are down, I would love to get you back on your feet. However, I don't think I should have to hold you up for the rest of your life.
I also have a mother in law and sister in law that draw disability and live in government housing. Their main disabilities? One drank too much the other was hooked on drugs for too long and both are chronically lazy. Whose fault is that? And yes, you will have to take me on my word on that one, too. However, I think you will find I was raised to speak the truth.
That is the problem Bill many do not get the help they need because of the leeches as one member put it, but I see the difficulty that social workers face in having to choose who will get the help and who will not. Even most Americans cannot agree.
Doctors are not god or the law, they perform a service. If you had issues with what the Dr. was doing, you should have question his/her care.
I did question him and more than once.
Also if you know your hospital is committing fraud you should turn them in. You can even get a part of what is recouped if it is Medicare or Medicade fraud. I don't know how it is where you live, but I live in a part of the country that also is poor.
All I could say is good luck if somebody tried such a thing around here because it is doubtful that anyone would ever recoup any money off of these people.
The amount of services I provide for reduced fees, no fees or actually cost me money would probably shock most people. Believe me there are much easier ways to make a living. Most doctors do what they do because we care. Should they make a good living, yes.
That is great and we need more doctors who are good doctors like you. I agree that doctors should make a living and I don't think this new plan will stop that but on this end I don't know, I'm not a doctor.
The money and sacrifice that is made before they ever get out of med school is tremendous, then they still have invest in a community to start a practice, all to be in an industry that is constantly lowering provider reimbursement.
We all make sacrifices when we go to college. I know med school is tough, but it is also tough when you have a family, and have to work your [beeep] off for 8 plus years to even get a Bachelor’s. Teachers provide a service much like Doctor's do and they now want them to have 6 years at the lower level, eight at the higher level. I'm not complaining but they too don't make good money, period!
Yes there are doctors out there that make a great living, but most Doctors working in rural communities could make a better living doing something else.
Actually, most of my doctor's were foreign doctors. Some came here and got their degrees, some did not. They could have gone to their home country and lived yet for some reason they are here. Can you tell me? Maybe it is better pay and a better way of life, do you think? I'm not jumping on them, some of the best doctors I have had have been foreign doctors.
So when you complain about your doctors clinics being overcrowded you ought to be thankful they are even there. They could have chose a specialty that pays a lot better, has a lot less liability and dang sure better hours than OB. So the next time you see him/her give them a big hug and tell them how much you appreciate the fact that you delivered a healthy baby.
I wasn't complaining about it being crowded and if you watched the Bill Moyer's video you would see that many of the doctors around here are good. There are bad apples everywhere and maybe if their were some regulations on them we could run them off and then doctors wouldn't have to worry about running patients through like it was a mill but we will see.
I love how this conversation has evolved. I jumped on Stu for the bad video (and it was bad by any standards) try to talk about death panels when in fact the video was about national debt. Now we are somehow off on bad doctors, little to no pay, etc. We definitely have problems in our medical system and many abuses yet so many rallies against trying anything new.
You said that you knew nothing was wrong with your child because of the APGAR score. Did you or your doctor know this score before the child was born? Hind sight is always 20/20. You wanted to make sure your child was going to be alright, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but you had the choice to not go to so many visits. If you knew at the time he was doing it for the money, just don't go. If something would have been wrong and he didn't catch it in time, would your lawyer been there to see him the next day? He may have did it just for the money. He may have did it to cover his backside. Again, tort reform may have prevented this situation.
Let me make my point one final time! No he was fine and that is not hindsight. I would not have gotten a lawyer because it would have been pointless. Let’s do a what if that actually happened in my husband's family.
His nephew woke up one night sick as a dog! He never liked hospitals but he knew he had to go. He went in and this doctor jumped up and said we've done all of these test and here is what is wrong: you have appendicitis. His wife was a nurse and she questioned the diagnosis but the doctor insisted. he made the point that they had a simple procedure to take care of the problem and then they would send him home. So within 24 hours he is at his house and he gets up to ge3t some water because he still isn't feeling good. He falls down in his hallway and dies! His wife knows something was wrong from the start and being a nurse knows she must move fast after he dies. She has a complete autopsy done, hires a lawyer, and since she knew many of the nurses gets them to do interviews. Several nurses having no knowledge of the other's testimony make this same statement of the fact that they had told the doctor he was wrong and that this man was about to have a major heart attack! His excuse was he made more money off of the other procedure than have open heart surgery. This was several years ago, yet his widow and daughter who have fought him tooth and nail have never seen a penny. Not only that he has continued to practice medicine with no repercussions!! Thus I do have quite a bit of knowledge about doctors who are only in the profession to line their pockets.
Personally, I don't either.
What I do have a problem with is this same unmarried woman having a second, third or fourth baby and I'm still helping her!
Personally, I think I've helped way more than my share of those unmarried leeches.
Those lovely Christian values of judge not least the be judged coming right to the surface their bud. I don't like the leeches the problem is thinning the heard and how it is done. Who gets to say who will get benefits and who will not? YOU I guess!!
Wow, you spend your spare time looking into another states welfare programs based off my post. That's rather interesting. Or is it that you have an unending need to be right?
Take it from an old Appalachian woman who was smarter than any of us. You might be born stupid but you don't have to remain that way at least that is what my grandmother always used to tell me. I think she always got pissed off by all the ignorance in America that she seen and how nobody was embarrassed by it. It is not a need to be right Bill, but to make sure the facts are out there when an discussion is going on.
"To Generalize is to be an Idiot. To Particularize is the Alone Distinction of Merit." -Blake
If you are down, I would love to get you back on your feet. However, I don't think I should have to hold you up for the rest of your life.
I also have a mother in law and sister in law that draw disability and live in government housing. Their main disabilities? One drank too much the other was hooked on drugs for too long and both are chronically lazy. Whose fault is that? And yes, you will have to take me on my word on that one, too. However, I think you will find I was raised to speak the truth.
That is the problem Bill many do not get the help they need because of the leeches as one member put it, but I see the difficulty that social workers face in having to choose who will get the help and who will not. Even most Americans cannot agree.
Doctors are not god or the law, they perform a service. If you had issues with what the Dr. was doing, you should have question his/her care.
I did question him and more than once.
Also if you know your hospital is committing fraud you should turn them in. You can even get a part of what is recouped if it is Medicare or Medicade fraud. I don't know how it is where you live, but I live in a part of the country that also is poor.
All I could say is good luck if somebody tried such a thing around here because it is doubtful that anyone would ever recoup any money off of these people.
The amount of services I provide for reduced fees, no fees or actually cost me money would probably shock most people. Believe me there are much easier ways to make a living. Most doctors do what they do because we care. Should they make a good living, yes.
That is great and we need more doctors who are good doctors like you. I agree that doctors should make a living and I don't think this new plan will stop that but on this end I don't know, I'm not a doctor.
The money and sacrifice that is made before they ever get out of med school is tremendous, then they still have invest in a community to start a practice, all to be in an industry that is constantly lowering provider reimbursement.
We all make sacrifices when we go to college. I know med school is tough, but it is also tough when you have a family, and have to work your [beeep] off for 8 plus years to even get a Bachelor’s. Teachers provide a service much like Doctor's do and they now want them to have 6 years at the lower level, eight at the higher level. I'm not complaining but they too don't make good money, period!
Yes there are doctors out there that make a great living, but most Doctors working in rural communities could make a better living doing something else.
Actually, most of my doctor's were foreign doctors. Some came here and got their degrees, some did not. They could have gone to their home country and lived yet for some reason they are here. Can you tell me? Maybe it is better pay and a better way of life, do you think? I'm not jumping on them, some of the best doctors I have had have been foreign doctors.
So when you complain about your doctors clinics being overcrowded you ought to be thankful they are even there. They could have chose a specialty that pays a lot better, has a lot less liability and dang sure better hours than OB. So the next time you see him/her give them a big hug and tell them how much you appreciate the fact that you delivered a healthy baby.
I wasn't complaining about it being crowded and if you watched the Bill Moyer's video you would see that many of the doctors around here are good. There are bad apples everywhere and maybe if their were some regulations on them we could run them off and then doctors wouldn't have to worry about running patients through like it was a mill but we will see.
I love how this conversation has evolved. I jumped on Stu for the bad video (and it was bad by any standards) try to talk about death panels when in fact the video was about national debt. Now we are somehow off on bad doctors, little to no pay, etc. We definitely have problems in our medical system and many abuses yet so many rallies against trying anything new.
ExpertMarksman
New member
Solution: she had her sister adopt her child and she got the complete benefit package! Ingenious!
If the money lasts, this will work. It's hard to judge without a government data base if it will work out in the end. Way over my pay grade for sure!
Good hunting!
Bill B.
New member
RR,
You have too much spare time.
Let me tell you how my sister in law got on disability. She got hooked on drugs and ran off on her family. Well, she gets somewhat cleaned up and starts living in government housing and seeing a psychologist. All of which you and I get to pay for. When she filed for disability and was turned down her psychologist sent her to a lawyer buddy who knew how to work the system. Presto! She is now clinically depressed and disabled. Her depression is just anger without enthusiasm. She should be mad because of all her stupid decisions and make ammends for them but it is easier to wallow in self pity than do the right thing. I think both her psycholist and lawyer should be in jail. How many thousands upon thousands more are there just like her?
Also, it's not the governments job to determine who gets my charity. However, through soft theft (taxes) that is exactly what the government has done. My family has to do with less of my hard earned money so someone else can continue to make poor decisions.
There was a time when people were ashamed to have the government help them. If they did get something from the government they got off of it as quickly as possible. Not anymore. Now they sell their pride, dignity, and freedom for chump change.
I'm done in this thread because neither you or I is going to convince the other to see our point of view.
You have too much spare time.
Let me tell you how my sister in law got on disability. She got hooked on drugs and ran off on her family. Well, she gets somewhat cleaned up and starts living in government housing and seeing a psychologist. All of which you and I get to pay for. When she filed for disability and was turned down her psychologist sent her to a lawyer buddy who knew how to work the system. Presto! She is now clinically depressed and disabled. Her depression is just anger without enthusiasm. She should be mad because of all her stupid decisions and make ammends for them but it is easier to wallow in self pity than do the right thing. I think both her psycholist and lawyer should be in jail. How many thousands upon thousands more are there just like her?
Also, it's not the governments job to determine who gets my charity. However, through soft theft (taxes) that is exactly what the government has done. My family has to do with less of my hard earned money so someone else can continue to make poor decisions.
There was a time when people were ashamed to have the government help them. If they did get something from the government they got off of it as quickly as possible. Not anymore. Now they sell their pride, dignity, and freedom for chump change.
I'm done in this thread because neither you or I is going to convince the other to see our point of view.
Rugershooter
New member
RedneckRepublic,
If you read the first post, you will easily see how this conversation went the way it did. You tried to prove your point with a personal example. Either you didn't provide enough facts or you should have come up with another example. From what you said you knew everything was just fine with your baby before it was born. How you knew this was because your baby scored a 10 (after the birth). I guess you are able to see into the future and know the score. But what ever reason you had to know the baby was fine doesn't matter, you knew and yet you still went to the doctor. You took advantage of the insurance company because you knew you only had to pay the copay. This is what will happen with the government care. People will go because they don't have to pay, not because they need to.
If you read the first post, you will easily see how this conversation went the way it did. You tried to prove your point with a personal example. Either you didn't provide enough facts or you should have come up with another example. From what you said you knew everything was just fine with your baby before it was born. How you knew this was because your baby scored a 10 (after the birth). I guess you are able to see into the future and know the score. But what ever reason you had to know the baby was fine doesn't matter, you knew and yet you still went to the doctor. You took advantage of the insurance company because you knew you only had to pay the copay. This is what will happen with the government care. People will go because they don't have to pay, not because they need to.
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doggin coyotes
Well-known member
[Quote RR] "Those lovely Christian values of judge not least the be judged coming right to the surface their bud. I don't like the leeches the problem is thinning the heard and how it is done. Who gets to say who will get benefits and who will not? YOU I guess!!"
Well missy, The leeches should use their fine Christian values and thank God every day that I am not the one deciding on which leech receives what, how much, and for how long.
If'n I was, there would more than likely be alot of those leeches practicing better birth control.
Well missy, The leeches should use their fine Christian values and thank God every day that I am not the one deciding on which leech receives what, how much, and for how long.
If'n I was, there would more than likely be alot of those leeches practicing better birth control.
RedneckRepublic
New member
You took advantage of the insurance company because you knew you only had to pay the copay. This is what will happen with the government care. People will go because they don't have to pay, not because they need to.
I did not take advantage of my insurance company. The company I worked for paid very little of my insurance. They took a significant amount out of my paycheck every week. I had done this for many years before I had my child. When I went to the doctor I paid a $25 copay on top of that. I know many that paid nothing. I also had to pay a bill of whatever the insurance refused to pay for every doctor visit I went too. I then paid a lab bill which depending on what they tested for, varied from $15 to $200. My final bill from this doctor’s office was $600 dollars for my last visit, charged to me and not the insurance company. Not because I didn’t have insurance but because insurance didn’t want to cover it. That is not including the hospital bill which my weak insurance didn’t even pay a penny on. So I guess you are right, I took advantage of the insurance company. I took advantage of them and paid them and the hospital just about as much as I made. I bet if they read this post they would laugh their behinds off because this is the same bull they have claimed for years. :tears running down check: People take advantage of us!! Oh, we just want to go climb in a dark hole with all our money and not come out! :tears running down check: Please! If they are not making money then why would they continue to insure so many people? Insuring people is a profitable business that is why they wanted to make sure when this health bill passed they got two things: no public option and to make sure everybody had to buy insurance.
You talk about me having a lot of knowledge beforehand yet you are the one assuming that people will take advantage of government care. (This is what will happen with the government care.) Their will be no public option under the current bill so how do you know? You don’t! Isn’t that what you claimed of me! I guess a woman doesn’t know what is going on with her body when she is pregnant.
I did not take advantage of my insurance company. The company I worked for paid very little of my insurance. They took a significant amount out of my paycheck every week. I had done this for many years before I had my child. When I went to the doctor I paid a $25 copay on top of that. I know many that paid nothing. I also had to pay a bill of whatever the insurance refused to pay for every doctor visit I went too. I then paid a lab bill which depending on what they tested for, varied from $15 to $200. My final bill from this doctor’s office was $600 dollars for my last visit, charged to me and not the insurance company. Not because I didn’t have insurance but because insurance didn’t want to cover it. That is not including the hospital bill which my weak insurance didn’t even pay a penny on. So I guess you are right, I took advantage of the insurance company. I took advantage of them and paid them and the hospital just about as much as I made. I bet if they read this post they would laugh their behinds off because this is the same bull they have claimed for years. :tears running down check: People take advantage of us!! Oh, we just want to go climb in a dark hole with all our money and not come out! :tears running down check: Please! If they are not making money then why would they continue to insure so many people? Insuring people is a profitable business that is why they wanted to make sure when this health bill passed they got two things: no public option and to make sure everybody had to buy insurance.
You talk about me having a lot of knowledge beforehand yet you are the one assuming that people will take advantage of government care. (This is what will happen with the government care.) Their will be no public option under the current bill so how do you know? You don’t! Isn’t that what you claimed of me! I guess a woman doesn’t know what is going on with her body when she is pregnant.
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RedneckRepublic
New member
You have too much spare time.
Pretty much!
Let me tell you how my sister in law got on disability. She got hooked on drugs and ran off on her family. Well, she gets somewhat cleaned up and starts living in government housing and seeing a psychologist. All of which you and I get to pay for. When she filed for disability and was turned down her psychologist sent her to a lawyer buddy who knew how to work the system. Presto! She is now clinically depressed and disabled. Her depression is just anger without enthusiasm. She should be mad because of all her stupid decisions and make ammends for them but it is easier to wallow in self pity than do the right thing. I think both her psycholist and lawyer should be in jail. How many thousands upon thousands more are there just like her?
Again, I haven’t said your story isn’t true. I think just about everyone has bums in their families somewhere. I wish it wasn’t true but it is.
Also, it's not the government’s job to determine who gets my charity. However, through soft theft (taxes) that is exactly what the government has done. My family has to do with less of my hard earned money so someone else can continue to make poor decisions.
I wasn’t addressing you on this Bill somebody else had posted about this I am fairly sure. However, since you want to address it that is fine. First, who is the government? The state or the federal government. Welfare for the most part is state government not federal government. If you don’t like how much your state pays into welfare Bill move to another state. The federal government only has four roles when it comes to welfare. One it gives states many financial incentives to run the program. It decides what the level of payment should be and what services should be provided. It plays a key role in deciding what problems should be tackled or who gets the money. Finally, they directly run some of the programs (not the welfare part) usually Medicare and Social Security. State provides quite a bit of the funding for welfare not the federal government. You must remember that General Assistance depends almost entirely on state and local governments and the federal government is usually not involved. Every states welfare program differs. Who do you suggest gets to decide how to spend your tax money? You? That might work in some cases but their are some people you would not want spending even their own money.
There was a time when people were ashamed to have the government help them. If they did get something from the government they got off of it as quickly as possible. Not anymore. Now they sell their pride, dignity, and freedom for chump change.
Yes, before the great depression that might have been true. Yet I was raised by a woman who lived through that time. She didn’t like the way things were either or even the way welfare had become institutionalized but she also said that to go backwards to a time before the government interfered would not help anybody. I don’t know about selling of pride, dignity, and freedom. The truth is like you Bill I know people on welfare but my experience has been different. Most that go on welfare do it because they have no choice, no job, and no home. They don’t do it because they want to stay there for the rest of their lives.
That said there are quite a few welfare bums who would just rather stay on welfare and do nothing. I’m not denying that at all, Bill. Honestly, I probably like them less than you. In a generation we have watched most of them go from being bums who wouldn’t lift a shovel to help you to straight out drug dealers who have tried to harm the very people helping them. I don’t think they should be on welfare.
I'm done in this thread because neither you or I is going to convince the other to see our point of view.
I didn’t know that is what we were trying to do Bill, but alright, if you are done then you are done. I thought we were having a conversation on this one and not arguing. No problem!
Pretty much!
Let me tell you how my sister in law got on disability. She got hooked on drugs and ran off on her family. Well, she gets somewhat cleaned up and starts living in government housing and seeing a psychologist. All of which you and I get to pay for. When she filed for disability and was turned down her psychologist sent her to a lawyer buddy who knew how to work the system. Presto! She is now clinically depressed and disabled. Her depression is just anger without enthusiasm. She should be mad because of all her stupid decisions and make ammends for them but it is easier to wallow in self pity than do the right thing. I think both her psycholist and lawyer should be in jail. How many thousands upon thousands more are there just like her?
Again, I haven’t said your story isn’t true. I think just about everyone has bums in their families somewhere. I wish it wasn’t true but it is.
Also, it's not the government’s job to determine who gets my charity. However, through soft theft (taxes) that is exactly what the government has done. My family has to do with less of my hard earned money so someone else can continue to make poor decisions.
I wasn’t addressing you on this Bill somebody else had posted about this I am fairly sure. However, since you want to address it that is fine. First, who is the government? The state or the federal government. Welfare for the most part is state government not federal government. If you don’t like how much your state pays into welfare Bill move to another state. The federal government only has four roles when it comes to welfare. One it gives states many financial incentives to run the program. It decides what the level of payment should be and what services should be provided. It plays a key role in deciding what problems should be tackled or who gets the money. Finally, they directly run some of the programs (not the welfare part) usually Medicare and Social Security. State provides quite a bit of the funding for welfare not the federal government. You must remember that General Assistance depends almost entirely on state and local governments and the federal government is usually not involved. Every states welfare program differs. Who do you suggest gets to decide how to spend your tax money? You? That might work in some cases but their are some people you would not want spending even their own money.
There was a time when people were ashamed to have the government help them. If they did get something from the government they got off of it as quickly as possible. Not anymore. Now they sell their pride, dignity, and freedom for chump change.
Yes, before the great depression that might have been true. Yet I was raised by a woman who lived through that time. She didn’t like the way things were either or even the way welfare had become institutionalized but she also said that to go backwards to a time before the government interfered would not help anybody. I don’t know about selling of pride, dignity, and freedom. The truth is like you Bill I know people on welfare but my experience has been different. Most that go on welfare do it because they have no choice, no job, and no home. They don’t do it because they want to stay there for the rest of their lives.
That said there are quite a few welfare bums who would just rather stay on welfare and do nothing. I’m not denying that at all, Bill. Honestly, I probably like them less than you. In a generation we have watched most of them go from being bums who wouldn’t lift a shovel to help you to straight out drug dealers who have tried to harm the very people helping them. I don’t think they should be on welfare.
I'm done in this thread because neither you or I is going to convince the other to see our point of view.
I didn’t know that is what we were trying to do Bill, but alright, if you are done then you are done. I thought we were having a conversation on this one and not arguing. No problem!
One thing I'd pojt out is that you've attributed a motive to the Dr as fact when you really don't know what his motive was.
It may be as you said, that he simply wanted more income. Or it may have been him practicing defensing medicine where he took enough steps necessary to help ensure that he wouldn't be sued for malpractice due to not doing enough for a patient.
This is in fact one of the primary drivers of escalating health care costs here.
It may be as you said, that he simply wanted more income. Or it may have been him practicing defensing medicine where he took enough steps necessary to help ensure that he wouldn't be sued for malpractice due to not doing enough for a patient.
This is in fact one of the primary drivers of escalating health care costs here.