night vision scopes

Originally Posted By: Jeff MockI'm just glad that we here at Predator Masters have Night Vision Sponsors to appeal to EVERYONE's budget!

I firmly believe that with anything you may buy with your hard earned money, there is a "Price to Value" relationship.

If my son, "The Marine" who is about to be deployed to Afghanistan, after 2 tours in Iraq, is given a piece of Night Vision Equipment, I would hope beyond all hope, that he is issued the VERY BEST and modern piece of equipment that the Military has to offer.

When it comes to Night Vision, research is key, and making an "un-informed" purchase can indeed be costly and extremely frustrating.

Do your research, and maybe even test a few out, and I'm sure that you will pick the one that makes the most sense to you and your budget.



+1000 here!

You tell that Marine, thanks for his service from us and God Speed!

Vic Di Cosola
 
YES WE KNOW THAT GEN-2 IS BETTER THAN GEN-1…AND YES WE KNOW THAT YOU ONLY SELL GEN-2 AND HIGHER…SO WE WOULD NEVER EXPECT YOU TO SING PRAISES TO GEN-1…JUST UNDERSTAND THIS: THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS GEN-1 UNITS SOLD WORLDWIDE EACH YEAR – MANY MORE THAN GEN-2 OR 3 (NOT COUNTING MILITARY AND LE MARKETS) AND VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO BUY GEN-1 ARE SATISFIED WITH THEIR PERFORMANCE…SO JUST PLEASE STOP BASHING SOMEONE’S ELSE PRODUCT JUST BECAUSE YOU’VE GOT A DIFFERENT PRODUCT TO SELL…YOU MENTION THAT YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL NV MONOCULAR SOLD FOR $2,500 RETAIL – YES – I BELIEVE IT IS WONDERFUL…BECAUSE I’VE SEEN ONE FROM LUNA OPTICS (GEN-2+, RETAILING AT OR NEAR THAT PRICE)…BUT LOW-END GEN-2 RETAILING AT $1200-$1500 IS NOT THE SAME QUALITY AND WHILE IT HAS A SUPERIOR BRIGHTNESS TO GEN-1, ITS RESOLUTION IS VERY CLOSE TO THAT OF GEN-1 DEVICE (CENTER RESOLUTION OF A US-MADE GEN-2 TUBE IS 34-38LP/MM, WHILE CENTER RESOLUTION OF A TOP-GRADE GEN-1 TUBE IS 36-38LP/MM)…OH AND BY THE WAY – YOU ALWAYS FORGET TO MENTION ONE WELL-KNOWN FACT: US-MADE GEN-2 TUBES WERE STOPPED BEING MADE NEARLY 20 YEARS AGO AND ARE ALL SURPLUS TUBES THAT EITHER HAVE BEEN USED BY THE MILITARY YEARS AGO AND THEN SCRAPPED WHEN MILITARY CONVERTED ALL OF THEIR NVD TO GEN-3, OR THEY HAVE BEEN SITTING IN THE WAREHOUSES FOR 20 YEARS…SO ANY US GEN-2 TUBE IS A CAT IN A BAG – SOME MAY BE PERFECT AND NEVER USED, SOME MAY HAVE HALF OF THEIR LIFESPAN…BUT NONE OF THEM ARE CURRENT PRODUCTION!!! AND IF YOU TRY BUYING NEW RUSSIAN-MADE GEN-2+ TUBES, YOU WILL GET GOOD STUFF, BUT THEN YOUR GT-14 MONOCULAR WILL RETAIL AT $2,449 AND THAT MY FRIEND IS NOT A GREAT VALUE FOR AN AVERAGE WORKING GUY TRYING TO SUPPORT HIS FAMILY IN THESE TOUGH TIMES… SO MY ADVICE FOR YOU IS PROMOTE YOUR PRODUCTS WITHOUT BASHING EVERYONE’S ELSE AND LET THE CONSUMERS DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT!!! AND THE LAST POINT – YOU ADVISE NOT TO BUY “RUSSIAN JUNK”, YET ALL BODIES (INCLUDING ALL LENSES AND POWER SUPPLIES) FOR GT-14 MONOCULARS, D300 MONOCULARS, D760 RIFLE SCOPES YOU PRAISE AND MANY OTHERS ARE MADE IN RUSSIA/BELARUS AN UKRAINE…MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING YOU DIDN’T KNOW SINCE YOU ARE NOT BUYING DIRECTLY FROM THE FACTORIES, BUT PLEASE DO NOT INSULT MY INTELLIGENCE BY TRYING TO DISPUTE THESE FACTS! SO WHICH IS IT? RUSSIAN JUNK??? OR SOMETHING YOU AND MANY OTHERS USE EVERY DAY TO SIMPLY INSERT A REFURBISHED US-MADE GEN-2 TUBE AND SELL AT SO-CALLED “GREAT VALUE” PRICES OF $1,500 AND SUCH… YOU ALSO SHOWING EVERYONE IMAGES OF GEN-3 PRODUCTS COSTING WELL OVER $3,000-$4,000.
 
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Actually, Gen 2 units are still being produced from Litton (L3) who make the M845 with the res VERY close to 50LP! No one is insulting other products, but the fact and specifications speak for themselves in regards to Gen 1 products. Folks can save several hundred dollars more and get a M845 with a CURRENT Gen 2 US tube, NOT surplus and have a wealth of performance increase for the price point under 2K. $1750 for the 1.5x version. Presently why would someone NOT want to try to save their hard earned money for something CLEARLY better than ANY Gen 1 on the market?

Also, never called anything "Russian Junk"? Some housing ONLY are made in Russia, BUT all the tubes we use are the latest ITT Pinnacle or L3 Litton for the Gen 3 systems. Heck even the 6-7K Raptors Rifle scope housings are made overseas...Nothing "junk" about them as well.

As for calling anyone stupid, no sir, never have, NEVER WILL. We just are trying to educate the public about what one can expect from these devices so they can spend their hard earn money with the best advice we can give. Believe me, we get enough phone calls every week, with how disappointed users are after spending 600-1K on a Gen 1 system that does not come close to meeting their needs.
Hope this helps.

Vic
 
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Hey guys I think you have to keep your perspective. If I was hunting something that was hunting me (combat)I would sell my truck and buy a thermal imaging scope.
However I just want a way to call in a coyote without putting them on alert with a light. If you have to get them in close enough for a positive ID with a light it seems that Gen 1 with IR assist would do the job also.
Anyway, I'm going to find out soon....I have one being shipped.
 
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Originally Posted By: Gman757Hey guys I think you have to keep your perspective. If I was hunting something that was hunting me (combat)I would sell my truck and buy a thermal imaging scope.
However I just want a way to call in a coyote without putting them on alert with a light. If you have to get them in close enough for a positive ID with a light it seems that Gen 1 with IR assist would do the job also.
Anyway, I'm going to find out soon....I have one being shipped.

Well said and please let us know your findings with your new equipment!
 
I am a long time lurker, and a long time NightVision Hunter/shooter/enthusiast. My buddy and I have entered multiple contests using Night Vision(Graham and SanAngelo)I have been using night vision for the last 7 years.
In my first venture, I didn't have anyone to ask, so I made the mistake of buying an ATN Gen 1 unit from cabelas and returned it, a short time later.I felt more comfortable using a spotlight.Since that time, I have had just about everything under the "moon". I found out the hardway, save your pennies, and treat night vision as a long-term investment. Times are tough, and I believe one would be better saving for a one unit, that will last a lifetime, rather than multiple purchases on inferior technology.

Full disclosure:
I consider Victor a friend, and he's come down and hunted with us a few times. There's a reason he doesn't sell Gen 1 stuff, it's because the customer would be unhappy with their purchase.
All my current gear is Gen3, but I have a Litton M845 in route.I am very excited, as it is a CURRENT PRODUCTION Gen 2 Military contract unit, and I look forward to comparing to my Gen 3 stuff.
Bottom line, Research is a must, before buying ANYTHING, I recommend asking questions on the AR15.com night vision forums, those guys eat and breath the stuff, and will give unbiased advice.
Flame away.
 
Originally Posted By: wes1I am a long time lurker, and a long time NightVision Hunter/shooter/enthusiast. My buddy and I have entered multiple contests using Night Vision(Graham and SanAngelo)I have been using night vision for the last 7 years.
In my first venture, I didn't have anyone to ask, so I made the mistake of buying an ATN Gen 1 unit from cabelas and returned it, a short time later.I felt more comfortable using a spotlight.Since that time, I have had just about everything under the "moon". I found out the hardway, save your pennies, and treat night vision as a long-term investment. Times are tough, and I believe one would be better saving for a one unit, that will last a lifetime, rather than multiple purchases on inferior technology.

Full disclosure:
I consider Victor a friend, and he's come down and hunted with us a few times. There's a reason he doesn't sell Gen 1 stuff, it's because the customer would be unhappy with their purchase.
All my current gear is Gen3, but I have a Litton M845 in route.I am very excited, as it is a CURRENT PRODUCTION Gen 2 Military contract unit, and I look forward to comparing to my Gen 3 stuff.
Bottom line, Research is a must, before buying ANYTHING, I recommend asking questions on the AR15.com night vision forums, those guys eat and breath the stuff, and will give unbiased advice.
Flame away.


+1. Excellent post.
 
Originally Posted By: Gman757Gen 1 with IR assist would do the job also

I know this is an older post but I would like to add my 2 cents anyway
smile.gif
I have used night vision in the field on hundreds of coyote hunts. I currently own a D-740 GEN2+ and a USNV-14 GEN3 and have as stated before spent hundreds of hours with it. I currently scan with the GEN3 and shoot with the GEN2 and on dark nights I have a hard time going from one unit to the other. The difference in brightness is very apparent on those very dark nights. Because of this I'm considering up-grading my D-740.

Using IR Illumination in my opinion spooks coyotes in my neck of the woods. I have seen this many times now and I can't be certain that they are actually seeing the light that’s emitted or just the lens where its being generated from. All I know is that 7 out of 10 coyotes will stop dead in their tracks when hit with the ELR (Da Torch) IR Illuminator. It works awesome but you had better be ready to make the shot when you light them up!

Vic and Chip my hats off to you and your detailed explanations of the complexities of Night Vision.

No one here has considered the SAFETY factor.
I agree that we all have a budget but let’s face it the reason we are out there hunting is to engage a target, right? That being said you at least have to be sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that what your seeing is something you’re about to destroy. So please keep this in mind when you "Pull the trigger" on your Night Vision purchase.

Happy Hunting
 
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All of this is really good info, but several of you are missing the point. People are looking for a functional unit, at an affordable price. $2000-$4500 for a sighting system, to kill a couple of coyotes, is hardly justifiable. I have a Vietnam issue Starlight (Gen 1), and while heavy and bulky, it illuminates very well. I have found if the sky is overcast, that a small AAA penlight, with the batteries almost dead, and barely emitting a yellow light, will illuminate hogs at 125 yards, with the Starlight. Manufactures need to figure out how to come across with better night vision products at affordable prices. By this, I mean under $750. Don't say it is not doable. We have all seen how expensive electronics are when they hit the market, and how fast they come down to 20% of what they were, in just a few years time.
 
Originally Posted By: ChickAll of this is really good info, but several of you are missing the point. People are looking for a functional unit, at an affordable price. $2000-$4500 for a sighting system, to kill a couple of coyotes, is hardly justifiable. I have a Vietnam issue Starlight (Gen 1), and while heavy and bulky, it illuminates very well. I have found if the sky is overcast, that a small AAA penlight, with the batteries almost dead, and barely emitting a yellow light, will illuminate hogs at 125 yards, with the Starlight. Manufactures need to figure out how to come across with better night vision products at affordable prices. By this, I mean under $750. Don't say it is not doable. We have all seen how expensive electronics are when they hit the market, and how fast they come down to 20% of what they were, in just a few years time.

Fist of all all units Gen 1 to the top of the line Gen 3 are functional, however, their performace is considerably different. The Vietnam issued starlight scope you have probably performs much better than the ones being sold to consumers today. If "affordable" means a unit under 750.00, then you are probalby talking about Gen 1 units. I don't recommend those for hunting because their range is very limited even in good ambient light conditions. They also have very low resolution meaning you are guessing about your target (are you shooting at a coyote, someones dog, a deer or maybe a raccoon). Gen 2 works better but you have to wait for good ambient light conditions and they still leave you gussing sometimes about your target. I hope that manufactureres can come up with a way to produce very high performing Gen 2 and Gen 3 units for under 750.00......I will be able to sell many many many more at that price point. Right now, 75% of the cost of most NV units is the intensifier tube. If ITT and L3 can come up with a way to mass produce the tubes you will probably see the prices fall considerably. Right now each and every tube is handmade, some are better than others, the military gets the best (as it should be) and we consumers get what is left over....meaning a limited supply. This is what makes them so expensive and there is currently no way around that. If you want to buy a NV device that your can use in all light conditions, have pretty much the same shooting range that you have in daylight, and do not want to be disappointed with your purchase, then go with a Gen 3 device. If you want something less than that, you can try a Gen 1 or Gen 2 device....but beware of return stocking charges from most NV dealers. If you don't like it and want to return it, most NV dealers are going to charge you a 15 to 30% restocking charge which means a lot of $$ for nothing.....other than you got to try one out. Kevin
 
As a follow-up and to give folks a perspective on tube costs, a new Gen 3 medium grade (blemished) tube costs around 1700. Add 500.00 for a very clean tube. Also, we all need to realize that some people will never be able to justify buying a NV scope to go out and shoot coyotes. There are quite a few things out there that are not really justifiable....buying a speed boat, motor coach, beanie babies, farmland for 10K per acre, and the list goes on and on. My advice is spend your money on what makes you happy....you can't take it with you when you go ! Kevin
 
The sign above my mother-in-law's desk at her travel agency before retiring said, "If you can afford to fly first class and don't, your heirs will."
 
HTRN57, is right spend money on what makes you happy. I often have people look at my NV/thermal gear and say damm thats crazy! Those same people have a $30,000 RV, $15,000, boat,$40,000 truck to pull it all in their drive way. Yet Im the crazy one? Fact is we all spend money on something thats important to us. On NV its not cheap but a good gen 3 system thats cared for as it should be will be around a very long time so cost per hr of use is very small over that time. I still have my first gen 3 mono I bought in the early 90's brand new it still works perfect after a few thousand hours of use in fog,rain,snow,ice,100 degree heat,near zero temps rural and urban areas and carry more miles than I could count in my fanny pack or pocket. I have never had a tube die on me but wore out a few housings that needed to be replaced over the years but that can normally be done for less than $1000 mil spec system like the PVS-14 and much lower for a commerical spec system.
 

I have been reading everyone's comments about night vision scopes, and thought I would add my experiences. Personally, I think everyone is probably correct, or I have that view. The difference, in my mind, is the intended purpose required of the scope. Basically, I see it as bait hunting vs mobile hunting, close range vs extended ranges.

Currently I am using a Gen 1 ATN Spartan 410 with 5X magnification for shooting coyotes over bait. For that purpose, and with some IR lights at the bait site, that scope is all I need, very bright. I've only squeezed the trigger twice, but two coyotes hit the dirt at the 60 yard site.

I had read all the reports before pertaining to night vision when I purchasd the Gen 1. My mouth was watering for desire for a night vision scope for hunting, but when I looked at the prices of good Gen 3 stuff, it about knocked my hat off. Even Gen 2 was pretty expensive. I really wanted a good night vision scope, but I just couldn't afford that much money. Saving for it would require quite a bit of time, and like a lot of people, I wanted it "now."

So, I thought I would give the Gen 1 a try to see if it would work for my intended purpose. If I didn't like the scope, it could be returned for a refund, this told to me on two separate occasions by the company reps I ordered it from. So, I took a gamble.

Right off the bat I noticed the Gen 1 was lacking. I had not looked through (still haven't) either a good Gen 2 or Gen 3 scope, so I realy had no comparison to go by. After looking through the Gen 1, I knew it was limited. I could see well enough to maybe 40 yards with the IR illuminator that came with the scope. The scope just needed more light.

I then decided to see if there was some way to enhance the distance that the Gen 1 could operate at "well enough," so I purchased a Luna laser illuminator ($350 worth). It helped. The good thing about the Luna is that it can be focused down to a pin point, putting all the light into a small area. That extended my range somewhat. I can now see to shoot about 100 yards, maybe a bit further, but I would not say the light is really bright, just enough to be able to identify and make a decent shot. I prefer more.

Later I found some IR lights on Ebay that cost around $11.00 each. They have 48 LEDs, operate at 850 nm, their own photo cell and operate on DC power. In a nut shell, those IR lights have provided me with all the illumination I need (actually more than I need) to take coyotes at a bait site with the Gen 1 scope.

Away from the bait site, the problem with light is real for my Gen 1 scope. I believe, without having looked through them, that Gen 2 or 3 will be much better, this on the word of many memebers and sponsors I have talked to, plus the various photos posted here and there illustrating what a Gen 3 sees.

During all this experimentation, I also purchased the EagleTac T100C2 that a member recommended. It's a great illuminator, very bright, but still it does not extend the range of my Gen 1 scope much beyond 40 or 50 yards. I have probably spent somewhere near $1200 total - over a period of a couple of seasons, on the scope, two illuminators and various other IR lights, in trying to make the Gen 1 work. I could have almost purchased a Gen 2 scope. The Pulsar N550 is close to that price.

After all my experimenting, I have come to a conclusion, and it is this: If you are jumping-at-the bit for a night vision scope on a limited budget, and for BAIT HUNTING, maybe coyotes or wild hogs, then a good Gen 1 scope with proper IR lighting at the bait site will be all you will need and you will be very pleased. However, if you plan to use the scope for calling and being mobile, you will most likely find a Gen 1 to be disappointing.

I still want a better scope, and my desire is to get one at some future time. For now, however, I am enjoying the heck out of my cheap Gen 1 at the bait site. For the price of $539 for the scope, and a couple of those IR lights at about $25, and a battery to power them, I have all I need for shooting at a bait site. My last coyote was taken while using only one of those little IR lights, and I could see very well. Taking the shot was easy. The only reason I wanted to use more lights initially was for video purposes, to help the camera to see well in order to have a good video of the kill.

What I have found lacking, is magnificatin of night vision scopes. My scope has 5x, but I really would like more. The limited magnification, for me at least, translates into the problem of getting a crosshair on a target at greater distances. Seems that everything looks much further away at night than in the daytime. I also understand that the higher a scope's magnification, the more loss it has in resolution.

Victor, I like the idea that the new Gen 2 scope you mentioned will be available in 4X. To me personally, that would be a minimum magnification I would want in a scope.

Kevin, the scope you have that mounts to a day-time scope is a neat idea. I like that.

The illuminators I purchased, while they added a little range to my scope, should work much better I think, with a Gen 2 or Gen 3 scope, so I will keep them and hopefully put them to good use later down the road. Maybe money was wasted up front, but will pay off in the long run. Actually, I shouldn't say wasted, because I did take a very nice bobcat while using the Luna illuminator away from the bait site.

Here are a few video clips of some of my experimenting with IR lights. It will give you an idea of what I have done with the Gen 1. Keep in mind the scope sees much brighter than what is indicated by the movie. I hope this information helps in some way. If nothing more, perhaps it will show the enjoyment I have had with night vision on a limited budget. I admit half the fun has been the experimenting part, though it did run into a bit more money than I initially wanted to spend.


Night Vision Coyote at Bait Site
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsbURr0lUAc&feature=youtu.be


Example of trail Camera IR and added light from small LED lights



My initial experimenting with the Gen 1 scope, IR lights, Luna illuminator, and hunting shack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzfRFiTeLQY&feature=youtu.be



 
Originally Posted By: 6mm06
I have been reading everyone's comments about night vision scopes, and thought I would add my experiences. Personally, I think everyone is probably correct, or I have that view. The difference, in my mind, is the intended purpose required of the scope. Basically, I see it as bait hunting vs mobile hunting, close range vs extended ranges.

Currently I am using a Gen 1 ATN Spartan 410 with 5X magnification for shooting coyotes over bait. For that purpose, and with some IR lights at the bait site, that scope is all I need, very bright. I've only squeezed the trigger twice, but two coyotes hit the dirt at the 60 yard site.

I had read all the reports before pertaining to night vision when I purchasd the Gen 1. My mouth was watering for desire for a night vision scope for hunting, but when I looked at the prices of good Gen 3 stuff, it about knocked my hat off. Even Gen 2 was pretty expensive. I really wanted a good night vision scope, but I just couldn't afford that much money. Saving for it would require quite a bit of time, and like a lot of people, I wanted it "now."

So, I thought I would give the Gen 1 a try to see if it would work for my intended purpose. If I didn't like the scope, it could be returned for a refund, this told to me on two separate occasions by the company reps I ordered it from. So, I took a gamble.

Right off the bat I noticed the Gen 1 was lacking. I had not looked through (still haven't) either a good Gen 2 or Gen 3 scope, so I realy had no comparison to go by. After looking through the Gen 1, I knew it was limited. I could see well enough to maybe 40 yards with the IR illuminator that came with the scope. The scope just needed more light.

I then decided to see if there was some way to enhance the distance that the Gen 1 could operate at "well enough," so I purchased a Luna laser illuminator ($350 worth). It helped. The good thing about the Luna is that it can be focused down to a pin point, putting all the light into a small area. That extended my range somewhat. I can now see to shoot about 100 yards, maybe a bit further, but I would not say the light is really bright, just enough to be able to identify and make a decent shot. I prefer more.

Later I found some IR lights on Ebay that cost around $11.00 each. They have 48 LEDs, operate at 850 nm, their own photo cell and operate on DC power. In a nut shell, those IR lights have provided me with all the illumination I need (actually more than I need) to take coyotes at a bait site with the Gen 1 scope.

Away from the bait site, the problem with light is real for my Gen 1 scope. I believe, without having looked through them, that Gen 2 or 3 will be much better, this on the word of many memebers and sponsors I have talked to, plus the various photos posted here and there illustrating what a Gen 3 sees.

During all this experimentation, I also purchased the EagleTac T100C2 that a member recommended. It's a great illuminator, very bright, but still it does not extend the range of my Gen 1 scope much beyond 40 or 50 yards. I have probably spent somewhere near $1200 total - over a period of a couple of seasons, on the scope, two illuminators and various other IR lights, in trying to make the Gen 1 work. I could have almost purchased a Gen 2 scope. The Pulsar N550 is close to that price.

After all my experimenting, I have come to a conclusion, and it is this: If you are jumping-at-the bit for a night vision scope on a limited budget, and for BAIT HUNTING, maybe coyotes or wild hogs, then a good Gen 1 scope with proper IR lighting at the bait site will be all you will need and you will be very pleased. However, if you plan to use the scope for calling and being mobile, you will most likely find a Gen 1 to be disappointing.

I still want a better scope, and my desire is to get one at some future time. For now, however, I am enjoying the heck out of my cheap Gen 1 at the bait site. For the price of $539 for the scope, and a couple of those IR lights at about $25, and a battery to power them, I have all I need for shooting at a bait site. My last coyote was taken while using only one of those little IR lights, and I could see very well. Taking the shot was easy. The only reason I wanted to use more lights initially was for video purposes, to help the camera to see well in order to have a good video of the kill.

What I have found lacking, is magnificatin of night vision scopes. My scope has 5x, but I really would like more. The limited magnification, for me at least, translates into the problem of getting a crosshair on a target at greater distances. Seems that everything looks much further away at night than in the daytime. I also understand that the higher a scope's magnification, the more loss it has in resolution.

Victor, I like the idea that the new Gen 2 scope you mentioned will be available in 4X. To me personally, that would be a minimum magnification I would want in a scope.

Kevin, the scope you have that mounts to a day-time scope is a neat idea. I like that.

The illuminators I purchased, while they added a little range to my scope, should work much better I think, with a Gen 2 or Gen 3 scope, so I will keep them and hopefully put them to good use later down the road. Maybe money was wasted up front, but will pay off in the long run. Actually, I shouldn't say wasted, because I did take a very nice bobcat while using the Luna illuminator away from the bait site.

Here are a few video clips of some of my experimenting with IR lights. It will give you an idea of what I have done with the Gen 1. Keep in mind the scope sees much brighter than what is indicated by the movie. I hope this information helps in some way. If nothing more, perhaps it will show the enjoyment I have had with night vision on a limited budget. I admit half the fun has been the experimenting part, though it did run into a bit more money than I initially wanted to spend.


Night Vision Coyote at Bait Site
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsbURr0lUAc&feature=youtu.be


Example of trail Camera IR and added light from small LED lights



My initial experimenting with the Gen 1 scope, IR lights, Luna illuminator, and hunting shack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzfRFiTeLQY&feature=youtu.be





Nice post, thanks for your input...this should help others understand what to expect from a Gen 1 device. Also, you indicated you use it at a bait site. Do you think it would be good for calling when you are not sure where the predator will be coming from or for positively identifying the animal you have coming in (coyote, fox, raccoon, dog, etc)? I would assume the IR flood lights you have at the bait pile put out quite a bit of light so not having that available at a calling site might limit the range you could detect an approaching predator. How far would you estimate you could positively identify an approaching coyote and make the shot using only the IR device in complete darkness (no moon and cloudy night)? Thanks again for the post. Kevin
 
6mm06

I am on my 3rd NV scope. the first one was a US Nightvisions Gen 2+ that I bought about 8 years ago. I paid $1800 way back then for it then which was a lot of money to me especially then! and it was better than what you describe with your gen 1 but not great. the problem I had with that scope was parallax. if you did not put your cheek in the EXACT same spot, forget it. I tried several times to sight that scope in and never could. I ended up getting so frustrated with it that I gave it away... it now serves my hunting partner as a (heavy) spotting scope and does decent if you assist it with IR.

Then I decided to make the plunge once again last year and I picked an ATN Night Arrow 4x Gen CGT ($1600)which is supposed to be a "better" gen 2. the parallax on this scope is no problem. I was able to sight it in placing all 5 rounds in the same hole at 75 yards with my Bushmaster. but the lack of brightness control makes the scope too bright after short periods of time hard on the eyes and it works much better on a bright clear night and degrades rapidly without a moon and clouds. and the scope weighs 3.1 lbs. Still a decent scope. but the weight and some darker nights pushed me to get something better.

I just ended up buying a PVS-14 gen 3 Pinnacle and now I don't even want to look through the ATN scope... it is that much better! If you like what you have you better never look through a gen 3 or you will be writing a check before the end of the week! the PVS has a gain control on it and is very adjustable. I can't say enough good about how clear and bright it is. I got the Torch IR to mount on the rifle and an EagleTac to use hand held. the IR reall lights things up but I haven't really even needed to use it with this scope. I also got the helmet and mount and received my DBAL I2 for it today.

the moral of the story is that I could have got the gen 3 the first time and would have enough left over for another rifle or a bunch of ammo to boot and would not of had to spend what I just did on the gen 3 had I done it the first time. So I am of the buy once cry once mindset now... after I spent all that other money learning the hard way...
cursing.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Shurshot6mm06



the moral of the story is that I could have got the gen 3 the first time and would have enough left over for another rifle or a bunch of ammo to boot and would not of had to spend what I just did on the gen 3 had I done it the first time. So I am of the buy once cry once mindset now... after I spent all that other money learning the hard way...
cursing.gif


VERY well stated and so true. We try to tell all to save for at least a Gen 2 type system. Looking into a cloudy fish bowl of most if not all Gen 1 systems is just not worth it.

Vic
 

[/quote] Nice post, thanks for your input...this should help others understand what to expect from a Gen 1 device. Also, you indicated you use it at a bait site. Do you think it would be good for calling when you are not sure where the predator will be coming from or for positively identifying the animal you have coming in (coyote, fox, raccoon, dog, etc)? I would assume the IR flood lights you have at the bait pile put out quite a bit of light so not having that available at a calling site might limit the range you could detect an approaching predator. How far would you estimate you could positively identify an approaching coyote and make the shot using only the IR device in complete darkness (no moon and cloudy night)? Thanks again for the post. Kevin [/quote]


Kevin, thanks.

Your thinking is correct about the limitation of the Gen 1 scope for general calling purposes. While the Luna laser illuminator is a good one, it only helps the Gen 1 somewhat. Away from the bait site area, my Gen 1 scope is very, very lacking. However, at the bait site and with the use of the IR lights, the illumination is so bright that's it's a piece of cake to take a coyote.

The problem I have found, however, is that some coyotes are very intimidated by the IR lights and are skiddish and reluctant to come to the bait. The lights I use operate at 850 nm, so the red glow is visible. Just last night a coyote passed through the bait site, scared and didn't take his eyes off the light. Two nights ago, a coyote came to the bait and was more relaxed. It was initially skiddish, but warmed up to the light and then came on in to the bait and appeared more relaxed after a while.

I would have no problem identifying and making a shot at over 100 yards while using the IR lights, but that would be within the illuminated area. I have an IR light at a 125 yard site and can see quite well. I consider the limited magnification (5X) of my scope to be more of a factor than the lights.

In a nutshell, the Gen 1 scope combined with the small IR lights is all a guy needs for some good sniping over bait. But, out and about, mobile and calling, seeing animals coming from a distance etc., the Gen 1 just won't cut it. A shot can be managed while using the Luna illuminator, but it's not very bright and I have to concentrate a lot to see well enough. The IR lights illuminate an area well, but once a coyote is outside the illuminated area, it is dark and the scope doesn't see anything. So, in answering your question about seeing an animal approaching from any direction, the answer is "no." It would have to be within the illuminated area. That is OK, however, if all a guy does is shoot over bait.

While the Gen 1 and IR lights work well at a stationary site, I really want to find at least a good quality Gen 2 scope so as to illiminate the need (at least some or most of the time) for additional lighting that might scare the coyotes, as well as to be able to see "outside" the illuminated area.

Also, I wonder if any Gen 2 scopes will operate with illuminators or IR lights in the 940 nm range? Does anyone have info about that?

Sureshot, I don't have any parallex problems with my Gen 1 Spartan. It seems to hold zero well and once sighted in at a particular range, is dead on and stays there.

I do have problems with trajectory, and I think from talking with others on the forums, that is a general issue with NV, due to the scopes sitting so high off the bore. Shooting over bait, however, is easy since I sight in at the actual bait site, so no problems and none with parallax.

Victor, I'm waiting to hear good news that you may in the future have a scope of at least 4X (tested to be 4X) in the Gen 2 line, similar in brightness to the M845 - and for an affordable price at Gen 2 price. If you get one, I'll be taking a close look. One thing, however that I don't like about the M845, is the rubber eye piece that has to be pushed in order to open. I wear glasses and I think that would pose a problem for me. It would be nice to have a simple, rubber bellows type eye piece that you just look through, no pushing required. Wishful thinking.

Question pertaining to the M845, can the rubber eye piece be modified to where it doesn't have to be pushed to see through, or, is there an aftermarket eyepiece available for the scope that is like traditional ones?



David

 
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