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#1555391 - 03/11/10 12:21 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Three 44s]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming
I have only been doing this about a year so this is what I use my dogs for. At first it started I got a pup. I would take her calling with me. She would be out wandering around in front of me. Then one day I found a den with pups in it. I snuck in close and gave my best pup yelps and in no time at all a pissed off coyote came in to eat my 8 month old pup. The pup ran behind me and hid. From that day on she would not leave my side when calling. I bought a started dog from Duane. I took him out in the first part of Sept with my pup. They usually are out running around. I called in a pair and my pup got her butt kicked by one and came back to me that coyote bugged out. Zipper was off chasing a coyote. I got him back and the coyote followed him back to the gun. We did this 4 times. That is one example I can give more but this is all ready long. If I am calling and a coyote hangs up and the dogs see it they will go out and confront it. Sometimes the coyote follows the dogs back some not. The end result is usually my dogs sitting next to a dead coyote in a picture. I am not good enough to get the action video yet. This winter I have played [beeep] getting any coyotes to come in. But if I wound one that i shoot from the truck I turn the dogs out. They will either hold it at bay or kill it. I have found the dogs work real well in spring, summer and early fall so I am not too worried about my poor success this winter. I love killing coyotes but watching the dogs run a coyote and then that coyote follow the dogs back to me is great. You are right Devin this would be a good topic. So lets hear it, what does everyone use there dogs for.

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#1555440 - 03/11/10 01:17 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Devin69]
Aaron_Proffitt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 516
Loc: Elgin, OK
Originally Posted By: Devin69
I hope you don't take this the wrong way.And I would be the first one to buy Duanne's book and video.
But what would this book be about? What Duanne Uses a dog for and I use a dog for are 2 different dogs. Duanne and I have talked about this before. Quess my question would be is what would you like to see in this book, as far as dog work goes? Many of you are from different parts of the country and What someone in oklahoma calls a decoy dog, I may not.
Lets hear your ideas of a decoy dog. Alot of guys would call a decoy dog, a dog in a picture sitting next to a dead coyote.
I think this would help anyone taking on the task of writing this book.



Good point...but it doesn't have to be just the narrow scope of decoying w/ a dog . I don't consider a dog that sits while calling to really be a decoy dog or a 'toller'...doesn't mean that the dog doesn't have a purpose though. When I first started taking a dog with me, it was my veteran duck dog Fisher. He knows that when the boss sits down and starts making funny noises, he is to sit until he has a job to do. But know what I learned real quick ? That I missed a heck of alot of coyotes that came in due to not seeing them. Fisher would scent or hear/see the coyotes coming in and stand up and growl, he would indicate the coyote coming in and I dumped alotta coyotes in front of Fisher. But he isn't what I consider a decoy dog....more like a sentry.

In my mind, a decoy/toller should be roaming out and actively engaging the coyotes as they respond ; stringing them along and keeping the coyote occupied.That's what I picture, anyway.

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#1555449 - 03/11/10 01:33 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Aaron_Proffitt]
DoubleCK Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 3485
Loc: Wauneta, NE / Gold Canyon, AZ
I have experience with dogs and coyotes but not much with this Decoy/Tolling deal, but I am hooked. I have talked at length to many of the regulars here. Those really cool dogs in my Avatar belong to Dustballs. I am on the hunt for what can be the best pup for me. (Devin, I sent you a PM)

The way I see it a Decoy dog is one who will sit with me on a stand keep a sharp eye out and give the coyote something to look at so as to draw his attention away from me. The dogs that actively go out and engage coyotes to bring them in would be a Tolling dog. Of course both have to be my "Best Friend."

I am not sure which will be best for me. Gonna do something, even if it's wrong.

Decoy vs. Tolling dog. Am I wrong, right, way off, even close?

Is this question a chapter in the book Duane? unsure

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#1555634 - 03/11/10 05:57 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: DoubleCK]
drscott Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 02/18/03
Posts: 753
Loc: Southwestern NM.
Back in the late 70's through early eighties I had a dog that was a airidale mutt. Not sure what he was crossed with. At that time he was used mostly for working cattle. He was also my trap dog and always went calling with me. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a decoy dog back then. He would sit next to me or sometimes move around close by. he always knew before me when coyotes or cats were around. He was great on trailing down wounded animals or finding my trapped animals on drags. Coyotes would often see him moving around and come in not paying any attention to me. He was a great companion and a great all around working dog. I would love to have anouther but working in an office now I don't feel I can dedicate the time to train and use a working dog properly. When the dogs I have now are gone and I am closer to retiring. I will get anouther to train. Working dogs need a lot of time, exercise and use or both the dog and you are going to be frustrated.

drscott
_________________________
It's never to late for a happy childhood.

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#1555856 - 03/11/10 09:18 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: drscott]
Wackmaster Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 715
Loc: SW Colorado
I think a solid focus, for the sake of sales, should be on the recreation caller aspect. Chapter 1 types of dogs and what to look for in breeding and traits. Chapter 2 different styles and uses, ie-trollers, sitters, recovery, etc.Chapter 3 training dogs to your style of hunting and mentioning the type of training equipment needed, like collars, etc. Chapter 4 goverment guys and how they use their dogs. Chapter 5 how to care for your dog, shots, hurt feet, porqupines, etc. You could get some of the well known recreational and goverment guys to add a little of there knowledge as well. Just a few of my thoughts.
_________________________
One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted... Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting.

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#1555939 - 03/11/10 10:25 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Wackmaster]
gonzaga Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 4365
Loc: Raton, NM U.S.A.
Very well said gentlemen, I liked what Wackmaster had to say there in the end.

I would want him to alert me if I don't see them first. I want my dog to be with me when I am calling wandering around and if he sees the coyote I would want him to engage the coyote by barking or going out to meet him, or them and then come back to me and hopefully bring the coyotes in tow. I want him to find wounded animals or animals that are on a drag.

Basically I want another Bubba, as if that would ever happen.

I have Tug trained right now that whenever I do the lip squek that he comes running. I will cast my shorthair out and let him run and then I will tell Tug "Sic 'em", and he will take off after Gus and start biting him and after he chases him for awhile, I start to lip squek and they come running back. I don't know if that is right or not, but so far that is what has been working. He will sit and stay but doesn't want to heel too good. WHenever we are walking, he always stays in front of me running back and forth checking stuff out.
_________________________
Tighten up your helmet and grab your crayons Turbo.....this could get bumpy....

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#1555997 - 03/11/10 11:09 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: gonzaga]
Wackmaster Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 715
Loc: SW Colorado
You might also use the ki-yi to get him to return. Sometimes the dog could be out further or barking at a coyote and not hear the lip squeak.
_________________________
One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted... Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting.

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#1556253 - 03/12/10 10:09 AM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Wackmaster]
DTOM Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Far from the crowds
I expect my dogs to get out and get after the coyote. I want them to beat feet to a bugger that hangs up and decides he doesn't want to come in. I want my dogs to change his mind. All the dogs I have will grab a hold of fur. The key in my mind for a good coyote toller or decoy dog is a dog that has been given enough exp. to know how to walk that fine line between to much aggression and no aggression at all. I don't want one that will just sit next to me and I don't want one that will chase every coyote into the next state. It's something I've found that either the dog has the temperment for or he doesn't. Obiedience and rock solid handling go without saying.

I also want my dogs to back track to the den. About 75% of my calling/dog work is denning and having a dog that will find dens takes alot of the time aspect out of hunting for dens and allows me to make more stands in a day.


It takes a lot of coyotes put in front of a dog to make a good one. Dogs are not the end all be all for coyote calling and at certain times cost you more then they gain. Some coyotes don't respond well to dogging. I've been decoying coyotes with dogs for a long time and I've had some good ones and more then a few ones I didn't keep. In the end some dogs have it and some don't. I ask a lot of my dogs and the ones that can and will are a pleasure to hunt with.

Tim
_________________________
Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life.

Dont Tread On Me

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#1556293 - 03/12/10 10:47 AM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: DTOM]
DTOM Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Far from the crowds
Here's a write up on Decoy Dog by Gary Rowley. I copied and pasted it but if you google "Decoying Coyote with Dogs" you can find the PDF file. He touches on some good points but doesn't go into much detail. In my exp. there is only so much you can train a dog. If the individual dog doesn't have it in it to do the job it is awful hard to get the dog to work properly. As a buddy to have on the stand and maybe trail a cripple sure....but what I would call a working decoy dog .....not so much.

I don't know that a book, aside from the entertaiment aspect would be much help in aquiring and training a decoy dog. There is already a bit of media out there you can grasp hints and some help from. Quite a bit on this forum here and others like it. It's just one of those things that if the dog you use has it and you do your part and get a handle on the dog and put TONS of coyotes in front of it in it's first few years, more than likely you will be good to go. I don't know that you can "teach" a dog to interact with coyotes.



Decoying Coyotes with Dogs
by Gary J. Rowley & DeLyle Rowley

--Decoy dogs, used in conjunction with a predator call or coyote howl, are an effective technique to reduce coyote depredation on domestic sheep ranges during the spring and summer when coyotes are highly territorial and aggressively protect their young and den area. Trained decoy dogs, when chased by coyotes, return to their owner bringing the coyotes into shooting range. The type of dogs used successfully for this work is discussed.

INTRODUCTION
Professionals in Animal Damage Control (ADC) have used dogs (Canis
familiaris) as a technique in controlling predation by coyotes (Canis
latrans) for many years. Denning dogs are used in locating coyote dens (Wade 1978) and aid in destroying the pups; greyhounds hunt by sight, pursue, capture, and kill the coyote (Wade
1973), and hounds are used similar to greyhounds, but trail by scent (Duffey
1964, Hawthorne 1980). The use of decoy dogs in ADC operations started in the mid to late 1960's. Decoy dogs lure coyotes by provoking the defensive and den guarding behavior of coyotes by intruding in their territory and natal area.

Gary J. Rowley and DeLyle Rowley are credited as forerunners instrumental in development, employment, and use of decoy dogs in operational ADC programs. also increases. Established territories and den sites are highly defended and protected (Kleiman and Brady 1978). Intruding canid species, particularly domestic dogs, are agressively attacked by coyotes in an effort to provide protection to their young. This display of defensive behavior is effectively used as a strategy to control depredating coyotes.

The use of decoy dogs in reducing coyote predation has many applications
and can be successfully used in any habitat and terrain. It is one of the
most effective and efficient means of selective coyote damage control during the late spring and summer grazing seasons.

APPLICATION
Adult coyotes normally hunt at night and early morning and return mid-morning to the den to feed their offspring (Young and Jackson 1951). Vocalization of adult coyotes is easily instigated at this time. Imitating a coyote howl by a person's voice or using a predator call encourages a response from the coyote(s). This response can be used for triangulation in estimating the coyote(s) location. Approach the den site cautiously and
select a "stand" location. It is very important to select a place where the
wind is blowing directly from the den to the stand. This favorable wind direction provides an olfactory advantage to the decoy dogs in detecting the scent of the coyote(s) and a disadvantage to the 179 coyote(s) in detecting the shooter sitting on the stand.

The use of 1 decoy dog has been successful, but 2 provide the best results. However, the use of 3 or more dogs appears to reduce success. It is speculated that the presence of 3 or more dogs may increase intimidation
and decrease aggression in the coyote(s). Once the stand is selected and the
shooter is in position, reproduce a coyote howl. Usually, the coyote(s)
respond with a return howl and come to investigate the sound. Immediately
after hearing the coyote(s) howl, the decoy dogs respond and sprint toward the approaching coyote(s). After visually locating the coyote(s), the decoy dogs will begin to chase it. Coyote(s) will normally respond by barking as a warning to the encroaching decoy dogs. This barking also acts as a stimulus and encourages other coyotes near the area to investigate the disturbance. In some cases, the coyote(s) will become frightened when confronting the decoy dogs and retreat. However, frequently the retreating coyote(s) stops, holds its ground, reverses the dominance, and begins to chase the dogs. It is common for the decoy dogs and coyote(s) to exchange dominance during the chase. During this time, the shooter should be patient, restrict movement, and remain out of sight. With increased experience, decoy dogs learn not to chase coyote(s) for long distances before returning. When the decoy dogs begin to return to the stand the coyote(s) will pursue, and their aggression and attacks intensify. Fights occasionally occur if the coyote(s) captures the dog. In very aggressive attacks, coyote(s) appear to
be less cautious as full attention is given to the decoy dogs. This provides
the shooter an advantage. When using decoy dogs from the start of denning
season to late summer when the pups disperse, it is not unusual for more
than 2 adult coyotes to appear and join in the chase. The authors have witnessed up to 6 adult coyotes attacking the decoy dogs in one
location. Most of the time when the decoy dogs return to the stand the coyote(s) will be following. Very often the decoy dogs will successfully lure the coyote(s) within 10 yards of the stand. The use of a shotgun accompanied with a rifle is recommended. Often the coyotes concentration on the decoy dog is so great that they pay no attention to the shooting. If escape occurs, encourage the decoy dogs to pursue and in conjunction reproduce a coyote howl. Occasionally the fleeing coyote(s) will stop, show aggression and resume chasing the decoy dogs and provide the shooter with another attempt. Infrequently, the coyote(s) refuse to evoke a chase and will only respond tothe decoy dogs for a short distance from the den site. A possible explanation for this behavior is that the coyote(s) are at their extreme distance from the den site. If this is suspected, select a closer stand, approach cautiously and prevent the coyote(s) from visually detecting the shooter.

BREEDS OF DOGS
No one breed of dog is specifically used in developing decoy dogs. It is the
dog's individual characteristics, qualities and training which dictates the success. Usually medium sized dogs (25- 50 pounds) with medium build are best suited. Color or physical appearance of dogs has little or no relative effect on coyotes. Short-haired dogs are preferred in summer due to the heat factor. The more common breeds of dogs the authors have successfully used are: McNabb shepherds. Border collies, Australian shepherds, Norwegian elkhounds, and wirehaired terriers. A few of the hound breeds and large terriers have developed into excellent decoy dogs, but the majority tend to betoo aggressive.

TRAINING
Preferred attributes and traits required ot a dog for consideration as a
prospective decoy dog are few. Proper training and experience are imperative in developing a successful dog. Basic characteristics needed in selecting a candidate dog are: (a) one that likes to hunt, (b) one that will free range within 400 to 500 yards, and (c) one that possesses a small amount of aggressiveness. Start the training by familiarizing the dog with a trapped or snared coyote to encourage assertiveness and build confidence. Have the dog accompany the trainer when calling and denning and allow the dog to free range. Accustom the dog with rifle and shotgun fire but avoid muzzleblast by restricting the shooting when the dog is very close
or directly in front. Once a dog becomes "gun shy", it is useless.


ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
The authors are grateful to all
USDA - APHIS - ADC personnel in Utah,
Colorado, and California who, through
the years, have provided improvement and
training suggestions. A special thanks
to H. Alan Foster, State Director, USDA
- APHIS - ADC, Grand Junction, Colorado,
and George E. Graves, Wildlife
Biologist, USDA - APHIS - ADC,
Lakewood, Colorado, for their
assistance in writing this manuscript
and for providing helpful editorial
comments. We also wish to thank
Barbara Dillard and Joyce Brown for
typing the draft and final manuscript.
LITERATURE CITED
Duffey, D.M. 1964. Coyote hounds in
Texas. Outdoor Life.
134: 118-122.
Hawthorne, D.W. 1980. Wildlife damage
and control techniques. Pages 411-
439 in. S.D. Schemnitz, ed. Wildlife
management techniques manual. The
Wildlife Society. Washington, D.C.
Kleiman, D.G., and CA. Brady. 1978.
Coyote behavior in the context of
recent canid research: problems and
perspectives. Pages 163-188 in M.
Bekoff, ed. Coyotes biology,
behavior, and management. Academic
Press. New York, N.Y.
Wade, D.A. 1973. Control of damage by
coyotes and some other carnivores.
Colo. State Univ. Coop. Ext. Serv.
Bull. 482a, Fort Collins. 16pp.
. 1978. Coyote damage: a survey of
its nature and scope, control
measures and their application.
Pages 347-368 in M. Bekoff, ed.
Coyotes biology, behavior, and
management. Academic Press. New
York, N.Y.
Young, S.P., and H.H.T. Jackson. 1951.
The clever coyote. Wildl.
Manage. Institute. Washington, D.C.
411pp.
181


Tim
_________________________
Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life.

Dont Tread On Me

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#1556391 - 03/12/10 12:32 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: DTOM]
Aaron_Proffitt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 516
Loc: Elgin, OK
Man, talk about dated material.

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#1556417 - 03/12/10 12:58 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Aaron_Proffitt]
DoubleCK Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 3485
Loc: Wauneta, NE / Gold Canyon, AZ
Great stuff. Always fun to gleen professional writing for useful info.

I guess the level of dating depends on your D.O.B. Seems like just yesterday to me. If you are referring to the footnotes, I don't know for sure what to tell you. unsure


Edited by DoubleCK (03/12/10 01:19 PM)

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#1556623 - 03/12/10 04:43 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: DoubleCK]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming
I liked the read.

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#1556657 - 03/12/10 05:30 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Dustballs]
DTOM Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Far from the crowds
Here's something that I've never seen in print before but I'm sure somebody must do it because its very effective.

I used to think that decoying coyotes was a daytime game. I love calling at night under the full moon with no lights just moonlight and snow to reflect it. I've always used the dogs to track and hold cripples even at night but a few years ago we were having a hard go of it during a full moon phase and had lot's of coyotes hang up and just howl or bark from cover but not expose themselves for a shot. A perfect scenario for a decoy dog. I decided that my current parnter was trust-worthy and cool enough to have the discipline it takes to shoot around a working dog and we took my cur Shorty out and started hunting him at night just like during day time but under the moon. It was like magic. The coyotes bombed in to harrass him, he worked coyotes that hung up back to us, he allowed us to clean up double easier.

I only hunt him at night by myself or with someone I trust and has exposure to decoy dogs due to it being kinda hairy at times and inexp. guys tend to get the "fever" and do stupid potentially threatening things.

Anyone else decoy at night? It's great to get coyotes in fur season to decoy dogs and the dogs don't seem to care it's night.

Tim
_________________________
Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life.

Dont Tread On Me

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#1556675 - 03/12/10 05:56 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: DTOM]
Dustballs Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 861
Loc: Wyoming
I have never tried it at night. I may have to try it. I know what you are saying about trusting someone around your dogs. I hunt most of the time alone.

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#1556856 - 03/12/10 08:35 PM Re: Time someone writes a book. [Re: Wackmaster]
Duane@ssu Offline
Retired moderator

Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 4095
Loc: Gods Country
Devin makes a great point, and he and I have talked about this many times.What I like in a dog, and the traits I breed for might not suit others, and what they breed for might not siut me. Doesn't make any of us wrong, just a matter of diff country, and different expectations of our dogs. I know hound guys that kill 100+ yotes a year, there dogs are good at what they do, but I don't wanna run yote hounds.Those same guys don't want a "decoy dog"(there are as many definitions as there are hunters).I don't know yet, what, if anything, I'm gonna do.
But, I got some more "ideas" today.
Whatever I do, it won't make everyone happy, any time you try that, no one is happy. I need to finish the project I'm working on now.Then I'll start my next project.
Any has ?'s or ideas, we can continue in this thread, or you can send me a "pm".
I don't have any idea where to start, or if I even should do it.
If something like this ever happens, I won't be just from me, It will be with the help of many other guys.
There are alot of guys, that are all successfull, with all diff styles of dogs.


Edited by Duane@ssu (03/12/10 08:53 PM)
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"IF YOU'RE GONNA TALK SMART,YOU BETTER RIDE A FAST HORSE"








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