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#1444113 - 12/14/09 11:10 PM which mil dot scope for $300 to $500
notimer Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: south central Va
Well looking to switch to a mil-dot I'm right handed
have good eyes, won't be shooting at much of anything
less that 6" or maybe an egg or two @ 200 and usually no
more than 700 yds..although I may try some @ 900yds
...I don't want to waste $$ on something that's no good,
like the chinese junk. I got the math down and am ready
to start...and would like a $200 to $500 scope
and I know you guys wouldn't steer me wrong..
If I have to spend $600 or more I'll have to
wait a couple more months.That won't be a problem., but I
won't even think of spending over $800 for one...
I just don't want to need a better scope after
a month or two...I really want all american made although
I don't have much problem with Japan....or true military surplus......
..I'd be thankful of any advise given..

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#1444122 - 12/14/09 11:20 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: notimer]
reloadmike78 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 228
Loc: West NE
What caliber?
_________________________


1st BN 5th Marines Wpns Co 03-07
Semper Fi

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#1444131 - 12/14/09 11:25 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: reloadmike78]
notimer Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: south central Va
25-06

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#1444196 - 12/15/09 12:38 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: notimer]
joshk1234 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 154
Loc: Ephrata, WA
i really like the clarity of the vortex viper line- lifetime warranty, exceptional glass, good bang for your buck. and they're $50 off form now till the new year....

http://swfa.com/Vortex-65-20x44-Viper-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P13285.aspx
_________________________

Winchester Model 70 featherweight .270
Weatherby Vanguard .223
Savage 93 .17hmr
Ruger 10/.22
Remington .30-06
NEF Varmint .204
12 Ga.
Glock 22 .40

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#1444198 - 12/15/09 12:45 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: joshk1234]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
Whatever u do try and purchase a mil-dot optic that's calibrated for a power lower than the highest. I have a 6-18 Nikon Buckmasters MD that's cald. for 12x (typical of all the Nikon mil-dot optics). But i apply it for rangefinding and downrange zeroing at the optic's highest power (18) where it now becomes 2.4 inch per hundred yds. between dots and the dots become a 1/2" dot now instead of a 3/4" dot...basically.

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#1445015 - 12/15/09 08:15 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
djscott Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 222
Loc: NW Ohio
I'm leaning twords the ss hd (super sniper hd) that swfa has out. Theres a great reveiw out on video at snipershide.com if your looking for a mil / mil tactical scope.
I'm still trying to simplify the math myself.lol

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#1445422 - 12/16/09 01:02 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: djscott]
txdiamond17 Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Stanton, Texas
I am thinking of the SS in the 10x42. I read alot of good reviews, and not just from their site. I don't see the hd on their site. I looked for the video, do you have a link? I am only worried the 10x fixed may limit me on closer shots. If it were 6 or 8x I would go ahead and order one. But, I think i am going to try one out after Christmas.

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#1445424 - 12/16/09 01:06 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: txdiamond17]
txdiamond17 Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Stanton, Texas
Heck, I went back and saw the HD model. It doesn't give much explanation as to why it is so much more. I assume its the mrad or whatever. I think is has much more precise clicks than moa. Just my guess

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#1445958 - 12/16/09 03:44 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: txdiamond17]
notimer Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: south central Va
Thanks Guys is there any more options other than SWFA
Of course I've never heard of them.......I will do some
checking on the co.are they USA or Chinese imports????
can't see much with a picture. I like to use a loupe to
look at stuff before I buy....You can tell alot
about Quality from one of those........condisider me
an infant about these products for I havent bought a
scope in about 10 years.......but I will give these
SWFA's a look. I've owned older Tascos, Burris, Redfield
Simmons, and I know you get what you pay for, but I do
know most chinese stuff is pure junk, and these days
there seems to be some dishonesty to where stuff comes
from with the new B/S laws concerning country of orign..
One co. I called said oh If we touch the product we can
put Made in America on it..It's the new laws..I got Ill..
so guys forgive me for being a little leary..........
Any more suggestions?....Thanks again.....

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#1446046 - 12/16/09 05:15 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: notimer]
Brasshound Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 456
Loc: Montana
Viper series are Jap glass.
Diamond series are China,

Try to look through a Viper series, if you can, target dot is not normaly stocked by stores that I am aware of...

If you decide you want one, I can help..

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#1446322 - 12/16/09 08:23 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Brasshound]
JDReno Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 253
Loc: Northern Nevada
I owned a SS 10x42 and it was a great piece of glass for the price(I got mine on sale for $289 shipped with sunshade and caps). I had it on my 20" DPMS bull barrel that was outfitted with a Magpul PRS stock and setup for punching paper essentially. At 100 yards it was still very useable and not "over-powered" for shooting targets. Although at anything further than about 300 yards you were straining to see your hits. So if you're truly looking for a long range mil-dot scope, they offer the same scope in 16x or 20x. If I was building a bench gun for distances out to 1000 yards, I'd opt for the 16x.
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#1446596 - 12/16/09 10:46 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: JDReno]
TAA Online
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 141
Loc: Arizona
I just bought a nikon monarch 4x16 mildot. it's in your price range. I haven't mounted it yet so no review but it gets pretty good reviews. The glass is super. Check on long range hunter website for more reviews.

The only reason I didn't get the Vortex was the short eye relief. Mine is going on a 300 win mag and I didn't want to risk scope eye.
_________________________
Next purchase, shopping cart to haul all my calling stuff to the stand.

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#1446618 - 12/16/09 11:01 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: TAA]
kirby Offline
PM senior

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 7902
Loc: nowheresville
I owned a SS 20x42 some yrs back. Very clear/sharp glass for the money. Not sure if they've done any improvements on that scope model in the last 8yrs or so. But the [W & E]adjustment shank's, the turrent knobs were mounted/[screwed] onto. Were not knurled, but smooth brass. which made them/ [adjustment knobs], prone to loosening up.


Edited by kirby (12/16/09 11:05 PM)
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retired

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#1447114 - 12/17/09 12:01 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: kirby]
seaaggie Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 317
Loc: East Texas
just for an interum scope while the new vipers are coming out, i am going to play with a Mueller APT on my Model 700 in .308. ill test it some and post up here

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#1447602 - 12/17/09 07:56 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: joshk1234]
Bucksquirrely Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 162
Loc: Centre County,PA
Originally Posted By: joshk1234
i really like the clarity of the vortex viper line- lifetime warranty, exceptional glass, good bang for your buck. and they're $50 off form now till the new year....

http://swfa.com/Vortex-65-20x44-Viper-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P13285.aspx



I just recently received that exact scope after having problems with several in the Crossfire line. To make a long story short they ended up crediting me for the original scope I bought plus the 30mm scope rings I bought to mount the third scope they sent me and charged me 50$ for a scope that was about 4 times the price of the original scope I bought. I am very pleased with the customer service and I am very pleased with the Viper. Glass was better than expected (which is saying a lot, I had pretty high expectations already) and judging from the box test I did it tracks very well and is true to its 1/4moa adjustments. Overall I am extremely pleased with the way my problems were handled by Julie at Vortex customer service and the quality of the final scope I received.

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#1447780 - 12/17/09 10:17 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Bucksquirrely]
Brasshound Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 456
Loc: Montana
Those Vortex people are great, and the Viper series is outstanding in my opinion.

If any one needs Vortex stuff, let me know.... I can help...

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#1449124 - 12/19/09 02:16 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Brasshound]
Snipedu1st Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Glendale, AZ
I'm new here and this is my 1st post. I'm glad that it's on this topic. I own two Super Sniper 10x scopes. One has the side-focus (SS10X42M) and the other is a rear focus (SS10X42). Both have been awesome and I've really enjoyed shooting with them on my 22" .223 AR-15 Varminter and 24" Savage .308 Tactical.

I primarily shoot 200 yards but have smacked gongs out to 500 with the savage. For the price you can't go wrong with these. Clarity is great (slightly less than Leupold Vari-X IIIs, IMHO), click adjustments are great, never lost zero in the 5 years I've owned them, and SWFA is a FANTASTIC company. Great customer service and FAST.

Once, I purchased a new rifle case and it was a "bit" too thin. After my flight from Houston to Phoenix, I managed to damage the windage adjustment knob from being knocked around in the belly of the plane. I called SWFA and they set up my RMA. Two days later I received a BRAND NEW SS10X42 via FedEX Next Day Air and inside was the FedEX return label for the damaged one. They didn't even ask me for a credit card to secure the new one! I don't know what the warranty is on these scopes but SWFA stands behind them 100%.

They've always been great to deal with and I go back to them time and time again.

Now, with that said I will confess that I will be selling both of my Super Sniper 10x scopes. Reason: For target shooting and long range medium/large game hunting, these scopes ROCK! But, since I made the switch to varmint and predator hunting, they will not work for me. All the prairie dogs I've seen are beyond 250 yards and they are "tiny"! So, I need a higher magnification. All the coyotes and foxes are under 50 yards; I need a lower magnification. This is what I'm faced with in Arizona. So, they won't work for me any longer.

I just purchased a Vortex 6-24x50 mil-dot scopes for my AR-15 "prairie dog" Varminter and Savage .308 tactical. Also, a Pentax 4-12x44 BDC for my AR-15 "coyote" M4.

Of course, I went back to SWFA because those guys ROCK!

Now, I need to sell these Super Sniper scopes before my credit card statement shows up, or my wife will be MAD! LOL.


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#1451011 - 12/20/09 09:45 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Snipedu1st]
notimer Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: south central Va
Thanks Guys I will strongly look at these suggestions...
I'll probably wait till the end of feb now..
I might even can go to the 600 range by then
for I'm in no hurry...I think I'm pointed in the right direction......

and to Snipedu1st Just buy her a diamond now...

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#1452514 - 12/21/09 11:35 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: notimer]
Stickboy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 40
Loc: Utah, SLC
I'll add another option to your list. Let me start by saying I like the super sniper from SWFA. One of the tactical guys I used to shoot with had one. They track well and for the money the glass is ok. What I didn't care for was the adjustments are a little mushy, still tracks though. I have purchased several scopes from SWFA and they are great!

I ended up going with a Falcon Menace. Now if you can get over the name, there not bad. Same price point as the SS. They're tubes are made in China. I preferred the MP 16 reticle over the mildot offered by SS, esentially hash marks at half mill and full mil incriments. I prefer FFP for the variable scope also. I now have two and am in the process of buying another.

Another good option for a straight 10X is the 3200 Bushnell Elite. I think the glass is better than Menace or SS. They are 1" tubes as well so you may be able to use some rings you have on hand already, and you should have enough internal adjustment inside of 700 yrds.

Hope this helps.

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#1452737 - 12/22/09 08:06 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Snipedu1st]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
Originally Posted By: Snipedu1st
Now, with that said I will confess that I will be selling both of my Super Sniper 10x scopes.[/b] Reason: For target shooting and long range medium/large game hunting, these scopes ROCK! But, since I made the switch to varmint and predator hunting, they will not work for me. All the prairie dogs I've seen are beyond 250 yards and they are "tiny"! So, I need a higher magnification. All the coyotes and foxes are under 50 yards; I need a lower magnification. This is what I'm faced with in Arizona. So, they won't work for me any longer.

I just purchased a Vortex 6-24x50 mil-dot scopes for my AR-15 "prairie dog" Varminter and Savage .308 tactical. Also, a Pentax 4-12x44 BDC for my AR-15 "coyote" M4.

Of course, I went back to SWFA because those guys ROCK!

Now, I need to sell these Super Sniper scopes before my credit card statement shows up, or my wife will be MAD! LOL.


That's why i always suggest puchasing a mil-dot optic where the mil is calibrated for a power lower than the highest. I've shot PD's with an XP-100 handgun out to 500 yds. with my 6-18x Nikon Buckmasters where the mil is calcd. for 12x. At 18 it's 66% of 3.6 IPHY or 2.4 IPHY and the dot is now a 1/2" instead of 3/4th's.

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#1453903 - 12/23/09 02:17 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
OKIE2 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 113
Loc: TERLTON, OKLAHOMA
Originally Posted By: sscoyote
Whatever u do try and purchase a mil-dot optic that's calibrated for a power lower than the highest. I have a 6-18 Nikon Buckmasters MD that's cald. for 12x (typical of all the Nikon mil-dot optics). But i apply it for rangefinding and downrange zeroing at the optic's highest power (18) where it now becomes 2.4 inch per hundred yds. between dots and the dots become a 1/2" dot now instead of a 3/4" dot...basically.


How can you tell what your mill dot is calibrated at if you bought the scope used with no book or any information about it?
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6.5 REM MAG, 264 MAG, 270WSM, 300 WIN MAG

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#1454311 - 12/23/09 01:22 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: OKIE2]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
Whenever u get a mil-dot optic, it should be marked on the power ring somewhere. But it's a good idea to check it. If u wanna' use it at the milliradian subtension of 3.6 inch per hundred yds. then go out and set a target at 100 yds. with 2 lines on it separated by 36". Then adjust the power ring until u've bracketed those lines perfectly between all 10 mils (heavy post tip to heavy post tip). Then mark the power ring somehow. But u should be careful with some optics. I was looking thru a Swift optic a couple days ago at a gun show and the last mil unit (from 4th mil to 5th mil) was larger then the other dot to dot spacings, so i'm not even sure if it was made correctly. Probably a good idea to make 2 more lines at 3.6 IPHY too and double check the dot to dot spacings as well.

Now when i checked my 6-18x Buckmasters @ 18x (mil. is supposed to be 12x) i just measured the reticle as accurately as possible on one of those sight-in tgts. that have 1/2" lines on them. The dot to dot subtension of that optic was as calculated (66% of 3.6 IPHY or 2.4 IPHY). I prefer to use my optics for rangefinding and downrange zeroing at it's highest power, instead of mil-cald. power. This way i have positive "zero stop" if u will that is very consistent.

To get the most precise subtension calculation possible (i think). Then go out and rangefind 10-20 tgts. of vaious known dimensions and known ranges, and "reverse-mil." the subtension using the mil-ranging formula. This way i think u can calculate reticle subtension to an accuracy level of ~.05". Actually that's just a theory of mine that i haven't proven yet.


Edited by sscoyote (12/23/09 01:29 PM)

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#1454929 - 12/23/09 09:17 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
jakermeister Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 197
Loc: SW Colorado
I've got a falcon menace too. Tracks awesome with some long range shooting I've done. Its also a FFP (first focal plane) You can mil at any zoom setting. I would recommend the ML16 (hash mark i think) I picked up the EMD (enhanced mil dot) reticule and the dots are a little long (oval). It also comes with MOA knobs if you want to go that route too. I had my scope shipped for $420. The eye relief is also pretty good. I was a little afraid of getting the scope because the 3 screw turrets but was surprised how strong they were. Haven't had a problem with them stripping with all the resetting I've done. The glass is pretty good as well. I bought mine from Matt at Wonder Optics


Edited by jakermeister (12/27/09 02:19 PM)

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#1457358 - 12/25/09 08:46 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
Urimaginaryfrnd Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 367
Loc: Iowa, U.S. A.
Snipedu1st http://www.samplelist.com/tradeinform.aspx
SWFA will buy them back from you and sell them as used on Samplelist.

I've had all of the Super Sniper scopes except the 16x and I could see buying one of those. I really like the new 3-9x42 with first focal plane reticle and 1/10 mil clicks and much improved glass. I have two of them and wish I had ten.

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#1458157 - 12/26/09 03:56 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Urimaginaryfrnd]
SanDiegoGuy Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 1
Loc: carlsbad ca.
Snipedu1st... PM sent

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#1458708 - 12/27/09 12:10 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: SanDiegoGuy]
chz Online
Seasoned Member

Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 214
Loc: Iowa
Have you ever looked into getting a Sightron scope? I just recently purchased a Sightron SIII 6-24x50 for prairie dog hunting and am extremely pleased with it. Fantastic glass and tracking. I read a lot of reviews before making my choice but this one stood out for me. Lucky for me my buddy even purchased one before I was ready to and I got a chance to check it out before I made my decision. I paid $725 shipped for it. I know it's more then you were planning on spending but the SII series are in your price range and as far as I can tell the only real difference is a 1" tube instead of the 30mm.. (as far as I can tell) Check out the links for some decent information/reviews..

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/quick-review-sightron-siii-6-24x50-lr-mildot/

http://www.westernshooter.com/2008/11/sightron-siii-6x24x50-riflescope.html

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#1458746 - 12/27/09 01:06 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: chz]
OldTurtle Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 19591
Loc: East Central FL
I have a 4-16x Mil Dot Sightron II on my .204 AR that I use for Prairie Dogs... It's super clear, not affected by mirage at 16x like some of the higher powers are, and still goes low enough to use for general hunting..

Sightron also has a great warranty and customer service, if you ever need them..I had to call and ask about the Mil Dot synchronization and they not only answered my question, but sent me a whole three page explanation on using them...
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#1458805 - 12/27/09 03:07 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: OldTurtle]
Urimaginaryfrnd Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 367
Loc: Iowa, U.S. A.
Sightron makes some of the best glass coming out of Japan they are a fine choice. Bushnell's higher end scopes are also very nice glass but not as much internal adjustment. Weaver is coming out with some tacticals also that should be worth a look. One of the most unique scopes though is the Trijicon Accupoint with its tritium and fiber optic illuminated reticles.

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#1459625 - 12/27/09 07:30 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Urimaginaryfrnd]
sandhillshunter Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 604
Loc: Nebraska
Another Sightron guy here. I started going with them last summer and have been very please! Was impressed enough, that I added their line. Like urimaginaryfrnd said, very nice glass, with a lot of adjustment. The also have one [beeep] of a warranty. I'm also becoming a fan of Weaver, nice glass at a great price. The Bushnell 4200 is one that I really like also, but Weaver offers the same glass for less money. All three lines track great from my experience!

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#1463034 - 12/30/09 08:35 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: notimer]
NMdoghunter Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 81
Loc: New Mexico
Nikon Buckmaster 4.5x14x40 w/the BDC reticle. Have one on my 22-250 that allows me to shoot accurately out 500. Anything past that u might want to look into something different.
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#1464809 - 12/31/09 02:54 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: NMdoghunter]
Recko555 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Iowa
Another vote for Sightron. I have a SIII 6-24x50 and loving it. Ranged a coyote with the mil dot (forgot the range finder in the truck) at 350 yards. Actually yardage was 375 yards. I think I did pretty good. It is clear, bright, and tracks REPEATABLY.

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#1564448 - 03/21/10 01:43 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Recko555]
ThanksGuys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 27
Loc: SD
I've been looking at the Bushnell 6500 Tactical 4.5-30x50mm and the Sightron SIII 8-32x56mm scopes, both in mildot. I've been searching (as you can tell by bringing up this old topic) but have been unable to find at what power the Sightron is set at. I found the SIII 6-24 is set at 24 power and the Bushnell 4.5-30 is set for 12?? So could anyone tell me what power the Sightron 8-32 is set at for using the mildots? Thanks
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These guys aren't kidding, YOU WILL BE ADDICTED!!!

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#1564543 - 03/21/10 04:11 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: ThanksGuys]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
TG--according to the '09 catalog the 8-32 is not offered in the MD. Is this new for this year?

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#1564625 - 03/21/10 05:57 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
ThanksGuys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 27
Loc: SD
Midway
SWFA
OpticZone

There's other sites but these were the first two i came across. Aren't those it, or is there a "waiting list" type thing with these that i just missed?? I guess i'm confused now... unsure

Oops, well i think i just found my answer, guess i should read things more carefully. On the Midway link under the title in smaller print it says "Manufacturer #: SIIISS832X56LRMD(AT 24X MD)." So i'm guessing that means it's at 24x? This would make the Bushy more appealing as i can range at 12x and also use 6x, 24x, and 30x if necessary by going 1/2, 2 times, and 2 1/2 times respectively. At 24x on the SIII using 12x (.5 24x) to range, each .1 mil would be very critical and 32x would be 1 1/3 making it slightly more difficult to figure out. As an example, if my math is right, i used 12" for a coyote. At 1 mil it's 333yds away, 1.1 mil is 303yds and .9 mil is 370yds. So if i miss guesstimate by .1 mil i'm off 30-40yds. Now if that's at 12x then i can use 24x and double it so each .1 mil will be more forgiving. 2 mil is 333yds, 2.1 mil is 317yds and 1.9 mil is 350yds, so i'm only off 15-20yds. That is if my math is correct, i'm still learning the mildot system. Same thing goes for holdover and windage, except everythings doubled so you divide by 2.


Edited by ThanksGuys (03/21/10 09:38 PM)
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These guys aren't kidding, YOU WILL BE ADDICTED!!!

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#1564786 - 03/21/10 09:03 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
TA17rem Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 1895
Loc: Minn.
tt2


Edited by TA17rem (03/23/10 03:18 AM)

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#1565254 - 03/22/10 11:03 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: TA17rem]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
Sounds like you've got it down pretty good TG. Playing around with the mil-ranging formula is a lot of fun. As it turns out the mil-ranging formula actually defines range finding (and downrange zeroing) with any reticle or turret. Many think that the mil-ranging formula was designed for the mil-dot, but it's actually just the opposite.

Thks. for the links. Sometimes the catalogs are great and sometimes they're not.

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#1565284 - 03/22/10 11:54 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
ThanksGuys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 27
Loc: SD
SS, no problem with the links, and thanks. Yes it is kind of fun, math was always my strong suit... Before all this i was leaning towards the Sightron, but the Bushnell seems more "user friendly" if you will. So now i'm back to square one ha. I noticed you use 18x to range, how do you think 24x would be? I guess if something is close, you shouldn't need to range it. So maybe that higher magnification wouldn't be so bad at greater distances, 250+ (that's when my bullet starts to drop off). I also noticed you're going up 1/3 power. I suppose once you figure it out and make a little "chart" it wouldn't be so bad. I think i may have to go to the sporting goods store and see if i can look through a scope set at 12x and one at 24x and see if there's a difference.
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#1565763 - 03/22/10 07:55 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: ThanksGuys]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
TG, if math is your strong suit then this stuff is right up your alley. When i 1st started investigating reticle-rangefinding i'd met this guy that was adapting Leupold's RES system for use on coyotes and he was having pretty good luck out to ~500 yds. or so with it. This was right before lasers came out and i was fascinated with what he was doing. At that time it was touted as the most accurate way to determine range for long shots, which was what i was into. So i started my research into the mil-dot for rangefinding, and once i understood that the most basic mil-ranging equation could be used with any multi-stadia reticle and not just the mil-dot that was a HUGE epiphany. Now i could use any 2 points to calculate range. I remember once i was talking about this stuff to a guy and i said u could range the moon with the simple plex reticle if u wanted once u knew what the stadia points subtended (measured) at any distance. Well the guy goes out and does it, and got within 5% of the true distance. I thought that was pretty neat.

I use every multi-stadia reticle i have for rangefinding from simple plex to Ballistic Plex to mil-dot, whatever. I have found that the finer the stadia subtension and the higher the magnification, the more accurate rangefinding is. Take this reticle for instance with the finest subtension at 0.2 mil--



Using this reticle to rangefind with u can interpolate (guess) to a level of ~.02 mil (~1 tenth of the .2 mil gaps--). I have one of these reticles (Leupold's TMR) in an 8.5-25x optic that allows me to reticle rangefind hard tgts. very accurately to ~1000 yds., because of the magnification and super-fine subtension. If i can guess the size of the tgt. accurately with this reticle i can always get the range within 3% of true distance. It's phenomenal how well ti works really. Here is the most basic equation that i use (inches to yds.)--

tgt. size (") x range of reticle subtension measurment (usually 100 yds.) / reticle subtension (") / "mil-reading" (decimal equivalent) = range (yds.)

Looks complicated, but super simple to apply. Hows about the Nikon 2-8x Nikoplex reticle (upper left corner of pg54 of Nikon's '10 catalog gives the subtension between post tips of 8.63 inch per hundred yds...@ 8x), and an 18" back to brisket deer that occupies 1/2 (0.5) of the post to post gap (x-hair to post tip). Just puch in the varaibles and u get--

18 x 100 / 8.63 / 0.5 = 417 yds.

Once the equation is understood u can "reverse-mil" with it to calculate tgt. size. One time we were at a shoot and one of the guys wanted to know the size of the 1000-yd. tgt. we were shooting at. A buddy had a mil-dot reticle that i measured on another tgt. at 500 yds. that i knew the measurement of (mil-dot was cald. for a power lower then the highest, and i wanted to use it the optic at a hgher power for increased accuracy). When i mild.' the thousand yd. tgt. and calcd. it out it came out 18.9". When we later measured the tgt. it was 19.2! I about fell over--adapting a reticle to measure a tgt. to a level of 0.3" accuracy at 1000 yds. was phenomenal i thought.

U wouldn't believe how much wrong information is circulating about reticle-rangefinding in the industry. Guys that own companies based upon the mil-dot don't know this stuff, and it's so simple. It amazes me the misinformation out there.

It takes just the right sort though. Your intuitive adaptation of the mil. reticle that u've shown in your posts already tells me that your one of those shooters, that has just a bit more than a passing interest in mathematics. Shooter + simple math is just the right combination really.

The End.

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#1565807 - 03/22/10 08:49 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
5.56YoteKiller Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 516
Loc: Mid Tn, USA
Has anyone checked out the Gantry Mount?

Looks like an easy alternative to figuring out MOAs.

Watch the attached video for a demo at the range.


Edited by 5.56YoteKiller (03/22/10 08:50 PM)
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#1565816 - 03/22/10 08:55 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: txdiamond17]
Joe M Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 212
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: txdiamond17
Heck, I went back and saw the HD model. It doesn't give much explanation as to why it is so much more. I assume its the mrad or whatever. I think is has much more precise clicks than moa. Just my guess



The 10x HD is a totally new scope and a lot better, from what I hear. It is the one that gets reviewed on snipers hide. The SS 3x9 is also a really good scope to for the money. Both the SS 10x HD and the SS 3x9 are mil/mil.

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#1566020 - 03/23/10 12:04 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
ThanksGuys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 27
Loc: SD
SS, that is interesting info. I never heard of the stadia subtension method, sounds interesting. Do most scopes give the subtension between post tips? I like the lines instead of dots, plus the .5 mil lines are an added bonus. I may just have to check into some different types/brands of scopes. I am kind of partial to the higher magnification as it's wide open country up here. Plus i like to not just aim at a target or coyote, but aim at a spot on the target/coyote. One of my buddies has a rangefinder, but he doesn't get out much. Plus when it gets cold the batteries don't last long and sometimes with the snow, sun and open country you can't find anything to range. I go by myself alot so i wanted to be able to range things fairly quickly, accurately and reliably. My one buddy and i are always disputing over distances, it's kind of funny really. I always think they're farther and he thinks they're closer, not sure who's been right... yet! wink

The formula i've been using is the basic mil equation i guess.

---Target Size(inches) / 36 x 1000 / Mils read = Range(yards)

I have since simplified it a little,

---Target Size(inches) x 27.77 / Mils read = Range(yards)

1000 / 36 = 27.77 saves me an extra step or two

I may have to play around with your formula, although i know it's dependant on the scope's reticle subtension. I was trying to understand your formula a little better...

18 x 27.77 / 1.2 = 416.55 yds... 1.2 mils = 4.32"(100yds)

18 x 100 / 8.63 / .5 = 417 yards... 8.63 / 2 = 4.32"(100yds)

My mind is drawing blanks now, so tomorrow i'll have to play around with your "reverse mil" to figure out target size. I'm not sure what the Nikoplex reticle looks like offhand, but i think your way would be more accurate. You could really narrow it down and get an accurate reading vs trying to measure the little space between dots. Thanks for the information!! I think it will be pretty handy and definitely more accurate, i just have to play around with it. One thing i don't get is how an 18" object at 400+ yds covers half your scope (tip to tip) at 8x??
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#1566228 - 03/23/10 10:30 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: ThanksGuys]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
TG, your formula is the same as mine just increased by a factor of 10 (you use 36x1000, and i use 3.6x100). Your formula also inverts the 1st 2 calcs. compared to mine. The problem with the 27.8 factor is just that. It's a factor that many guys never realize where it comes from. It's what i refer to as the "subtension unit". It's just the subtension of the mil-dot at 100 yds. (or 1000 yds. in your equation). 100/3.6=27.8. The SU for the Nikon would be 100/8.63=11.59.

The 417 yd. range in the example above is the yardage the 18" tgt. subtends between x-hair and plex post tip (1/2 of the 8.63 inch spacing between plex post tips).

You know it's really not enough to know how to calculate the formula. A quick system of application is important too. I've seen guys put their rangefinding dope on a piece of paper taped on the side of the gunstock. That's OK but i've found the best way to do it is to put it in a Blizzard style Butler Creek scope cap cover, so all i have to do is glance up to it to reference the chart, without getting out of position for the shot. Here's mine for Darrell Holland's Ultimate Mil reticle using 1/2 mil as my subtension unit for an 11" back to brisket coyote to as far out as that reticle will take me practically--



It's always in that order too--mil reading, then yardage as the mil-reading is the 1st information that's known, then ydge. The "P" is point blank range. So if i have to shoot fast i can still tell if the coyote is within PBR or not by simply bracketing him quickly. If he's as big as the designated gap or bigger, then just aim dead center and shoot.


Edited by sscoyote (03/23/10 10:45 AM)

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#1566249 - 03/23/10 10:58 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
Another advantage to understanding the complete formula (whichever arrangement your using), is that it also defines downrange zeroing as well, since if u think about it a tgt. size at distance is really the same sort of dimension as a bullet drop when refernced with an optic (turret or reticle). I.e. suppose u want to know how many mils to hold for 43" drop at 534 yds. (this is actually reverse-milling once again). Just fill in the variables--

43 x 100 / 3.6 / X = 534
X=2.2 mils

Hows about 46" drop with a .25 MOA turret at 624 yds.--

46 x 100 / 0.24 / X = 624
X=30.7 .25 MOA clicks.

Fun stuff man, fun stuff!


Edited by sscoyote (03/23/10 11:01 AM)

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#1566259 - 03/23/10 11:17 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
ThanksGuys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 27
Loc: SD
So how many "charts" do you put on your gun? I am thinking i can write everything down in a little notebook so i have all the information. Then make some small charts and see which ones i would want or use most often. I like the scope cap idea.
I've come up with a lot of charts one can make, but how many is too many and what's practical and not.

1. Mils for ranging distance (could have more than one depending on power setting, ex. 24x & 30x)
2. Moa adjustments at x yards, drop and windage
3. Mil adjustments at x yards, for holdover and windage
4. Wind drift (would only need to chart 5 mph, seems close enough to just x2 for 10, x3 for 15, etc.)

I think it'd rather dope the scope for better accuracy, but if mr yote doesn't give you the time to, or if there's multiple yotes and multiple distances.(one comes in and one stands out there) It would be "quicker..."
I've thought of marking the turrets with tape for moa adjustments? But then if i switch between different bullets, i'd have to take them on and off. During the season though maybe it wouldn't hurt. I don't know maybe my friend is right and i'm "over thinking" things haha. You don't get many opportunities, so i just want to make every one count.

That "P" is a good idea.


Edited by ThanksGuys (03/23/10 11:20 AM)
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#1567623 - 03/24/10 07:58 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: ThanksGuys]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
That's the big question really--how far do you take this stuff for hunting? I've put a lot of study into this and the best system i've come up with is a simple chart in both Butler Creek scope cap covers. The ocular has the zero dope, and the objective has rangefinding. I'm only going out to 600 yds, maximum with my rigs--an AR-15 and specialty pistols. Here's the ocular dope for another reticle designed as efficiently as i could think of just like the one for this XP-100 6.5 WSM. The nice thing about the BC system is all i have to do is glance up to it WITHOUT HAVING TO GET OUT OF POSITION. For coyotes you have to be fast most of the time, and this is the best system i could think up--range, elevation and windage (@10 mph). All my dope is calcd. for only one magnification usually the highest (except for a point blank range power i've calcd. most of the time)--





Got another buddy of mine i've been hunting with that has dope all over his gun, and uses reticle as well as turrets. He also carries an I-Pod Touch with the JBM ballistics program he's calcd. and tested using a G-7 drag funcion for the 87 V-Max out of his AR-10. He calls in for air density updates several times a day and uses a Kestrel for elevation and temp. Too much, huh? I thought so too, but he's got 4 1st-shot kills from 470-785 yds. this year with only 1 miss beyond 400.--amazing. So who knows what works best. Each to his own.

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#1568044 - 03/25/10 09:25 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
joshua79109 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/18/10
Posts: 369
Loc: Amarillo, TX
I have 2 of the 10X SS scopes from SWFA. I have one on a 308 and one on a 223. Each have been excellent and have held their zero well. The glass is good and I believe it is comparable to my Leupold VX-II. I use the rear focus models, a friend of mine has a side focus model and to me it's a little harder to reach the side focus than the rear. I have practiced a lot and have gotten decent at finding range with it. I use one of the paper calculators to help when in a hurry.

One problem with the 10x is that it makes it tougher to get doubles. The 10x does focus well up close and out far.
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#1568602 - 03/25/10 08:51 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: joshua79109]
KAG Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 1192
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: joshua79109
I have 2 of the 10X SS scopes from SWFA. I have one on a 308 and one on a 223. Each have been excellent and have held their zero well. The glass is good


I second this. I have 2 also and no complaints. The other optic in this price range is the Wonder Optics WOTAC-10, very close to the SS except I like the fine lines of the WOTAC for longer range targets. I am seriously considering buying another WOTAC-10 for my new AR 243wssm purchase. I like fixed power scopes though.

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#1568976 - 03/26/10 08:27 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: KAG]
Krakkon Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 394
Loc: Billings MT
I just bought a Ipod Touch and put Isnipe and the Jbm calc on it also.. [beeep] is technology FUN!

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#1569270 - 03/26/10 03:22 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: Krakkon]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
Krakkon, that's what my buddies doing too. He's got his trajectory dead nuts on...but he had to use the G7 drag function to eliminate some error beyond 600.


ThanksGuys, wnet out today with a buddy that just bought a 3.5-10x Mk4 with M3 turret. He has the mil-dot reticle in it. I was showing how to apply it for rangefinding and downrange zeroing. At the last range we were shooting at 425 yds. on an 18" plate. I told him to bracket the plate and we would calculate the range. He told me about 1 mil. So i ran it in to the equation and got--

18x100/3.6/1.0=500

I thinks to myself, something's wrong--should be better than this. So i asked to take a look at it. And it appeared to actually occupy just a hair less then 1.2, figured a guess at 1.18--

1800/3.6/1.18=423.7

The guy just couldn't believe it. He said, i didn't realize u had to break the reticle up that closely. I told him it makes a geometrically greater difference the further out u go. Imagine that though--a rangefinding accuracy level to ~.3 percent using a reticle. Gotta love it!

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#1569661 - 03/26/10 11:03 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
ThanksGuys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 27
Loc: SD
SS, that is crazy. I think being able to breaking the reticle up closely and accurately will come with practice. I was actually just looking at a Mil scope that was broken into .2 mils. They were lines instead of dots. Then i was looking at an MOA reticle and thought hey that might be easier math.

Target size(inches) / MOA read x 100 = distance in yards
12 / 3 x 100 = 400yds

BUT that reticle was in 2 MOA lines. So as i played with the "easier" ranging math i quickly realized it may not be the best. 12 / 3 x 100 = 400yds and 12 / 2 x 100 = 600yds. As if the 2 MOA spacing between lines didn't seem small enough, HALF of that covers 200yds!!! It looked like there was more space between the .2 Mil lines than the 2 MOA lines on the reticles. So i think that would make it easier to get a much more accurate reading.
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#1569753 - 03/27/10 06:55 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: ThanksGuys]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
The way i see it is that when using the mil-ranging formula with any stadia to stadia gap the whole idea is to break it down into tenths of whatever unit u have available (the 2 MOA would actually be 2.094 inch per hundred yds.). Even though it's true that the difference between 2 MOA and 4 MOA would be a lot, u're still going to break it down into tenths of that gap. So IMO you should be able to achieve an accuracy level of one tenth of the 2 MOA gap or .2094 IPHY (basically 1 tenth of 200 yds. in your example or ~ +/- 20 yds.). If u think about it the 2 MOA gap is still more accurate than the mil-dot (smaller).

Now the .2 mil is very accurate of course @ .2 mil or 0.72 IPHY, which if my theory is correct would give u an accuracy level of ~ +/- .07 IPHY interpolatively. So in your 12" tgt. example at ~300 yds. that would be--

12 x 100 / .72 / x = 297

x=5.6

So +/- .1 error would give--
303 for 5.5
292 for 5.7

5 yds is of course insignificant.

Awhile back i came upon something though that gives even a hair better accuracy with line reticles (like the .2 mil systems). If u think about it most guys bracket their tgt. between lines not from center of line to center of line, so in an attempt to get the most accuracy from reticle-rangefinding the thickness of 1 line should be subtracted from your subtension unit. So in the example of Leupold's .2 mil TMR reticle above, that amounts to 0.02 mil (line thickness) or 0.648 subtension unit instead of true .2 mil. I actually stumbled upon this concept a couple years ago while attempting to reticle-range a buck antelope i came upon while coyote hunting using the Burris 3-12x pistol scope with Ballistic Plex reticle (line stadia). Darrell Holland actually teaches this in his long-range shooting school too. But i think he's the only one.

When reticle rangefinding with a ballistic reticle that doesn't have a repeating subtension unit (like the mil-dot), then u have to do a bit more math. It gets a little more complicated too (i.e. more practice), which is why i have this article on-line for ballistic and rangefinding reticles-- www.ottllc.com/specialtypistols/sp20.pdf Item C) Reticle Rangefinding

Actually just looked again at your example and you were using an avg. of 500 yds. instead of 300 as i quoted--sorry, then +/- .1 SU would be ~ 100 yds....which is why my reticle-rangefinding on game usually ends at 500 yds.


Edited by sscoyote (03/27/10 07:30 AM)

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#1569756 - 03/27/10 07:09 AM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
sscoyote Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/28/02
Posts: 2379
Loc: pueblo, co
With all my data i have come to the conclusion that u really can't do much better than about 3% error CONSISTENTLY with any reticle that i've used (many ballistic and rangefinding reticles). You will get accuracy to the level i mentioned earlier often but it's not the std. 3% ain't bad though--sure beats guessing...IMO.

U know what's really cool about all this is the feeling your getting while punching the figures into the calculator (not while hunting, BTW). I mean this guy was probably looking at me like i was some kinda' nut. But when i showed him th result, it was sure fun watching the look on his face change.

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#1571155 - 03/28/10 10:42 PM Re: which mil dot scope for $300 to $500 [Re: sscoyote]
dpms panther Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 71
Loc: oklahoma
i ran in to the $ problem last year and went with a konus pro for a 22-250 it got good glass and i paid around 400 for it well worth the money for the quality

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