Fire Lapping Results
- Thread starter Frank44
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Martyn4802
New member
Originally Posted By: kelbroI don't get how a person would want to firelap a barrel before they ever shot it. I can't imagine that rounding off the sharp edges of the lands and grooves would improve accuracy.
Oh well, I will try to keep an open mind.
Your point is well taken.
For consideration here, aftermarket barrel makers all lap their barrels before they sell them.
Just something to ponder...
Oh well, I will try to keep an open mind.
Your point is well taken.
For consideration here, aftermarket barrel makers all lap their barrels before they sell them.
Just something to ponder...
Fitch
New member
Originally Posted By: Martyn4802Originally Posted By: kelbroI don't get how a person would want to firelap a barrel before they ever shot it. I can't imagine that rounding off the sharp edges of the lands and grooves would improve accuracy.
Oh well, I will try to keep an open mind.
Your point is well taken.
For consideration here, aftermarket barrel makers all lap their barrels before they sell them.
Just something to ponder...
What barrel makers do and firelapping are two profoundly different things. Barrel makers cast a lead lap in the bore, coat it with grit, push it through the barrel a few times, then cast a second lap, repeating until the barrel meets their requirements. This process doesn't round the corners of the lands like firelapping.
Firelapping is essentially radically accelerated wear that is very hard on the throat. The only difference between firelapping and accelerated wear on a new barrel is the lack of thermal cycle fatigue in the throat because it hasn't been exposed to many cycles.
I've inspected rifles I've chambered. After 20 rounds of what I consider normal breakin - four 5 round groups with some cleaning inbetween, the reamer marks on the throat are gone and the rifling in the barrel looks new with crisp edges on the lands.
There may be times when firelapping is called for, I just haven't experienced them yet.
Fitch
Oh well, I will try to keep an open mind.
Your point is well taken.
For consideration here, aftermarket barrel makers all lap their barrels before they sell them.
Just something to ponder...
What barrel makers do and firelapping are two profoundly different things. Barrel makers cast a lead lap in the bore, coat it with grit, push it through the barrel a few times, then cast a second lap, repeating until the barrel meets their requirements. This process doesn't round the corners of the lands like firelapping.
Firelapping is essentially radically accelerated wear that is very hard on the throat. The only difference between firelapping and accelerated wear on a new barrel is the lack of thermal cycle fatigue in the throat because it hasn't been exposed to many cycles.
I've inspected rifles I've chambered. After 20 rounds of what I consider normal breakin - four 5 round groups with some cleaning inbetween, the reamer marks on the throat are gone and the rifling in the barrel looks new with crisp edges on the lands.
There may be times when firelapping is called for, I just haven't experienced them yet.
Fitch
Bayou City Boy
New member
Originally Posted By: songdogslayernow next friday come I didn't have the rent . . . and out the door I went.
BCB, I always wonder what the motivation is when someone posts an off-handed remark suggesting the thread is something other than worth the time to read it. Maybe just being funny is reason enough to read it? What's so funny? Subject line reads Fire Lapping Results and the contributions appear to be on the up & up . . . maybe you're against breaking in a factory barrel, or fire lapping . . . ?
Have a good wk/end gang,
-Scott
songdog:
Oh my....where to start...?
Originally Posted By: songdogslayer.....The first 50 rounds through this particular .243 were the final finish rounds. .....Tubbs final finish is one of the steps I will always use in a factory rifle."
First off...If you buy a factory rifle with a bad barrel in it, no amount of breaking in, fire lapping, or Papal Blessings are going to turn it into a decent shooter. Only a new barrel will do that.
If the barrel is found to be decently accurate from the git-go after firing it, why shoot abrasive bullets through it to "improve it". Using the barrel normally will do the same thing without excessive wear on the barrel. I definitely wouldn't shoot abrasive bullets through any barrel of any age without knowing the accuracy level of the barrel to begin with. Why waste good barrel steel and barrel life just because "once upon a time in a land far away" the Tubbs system helped prolong the life of a poorly cared for old barrel? That's what the Tubbs system was designed for... It's not designed for using in new barrels with unknown accuracy potential when new. And the Tubbs final finish system will generally remove far more than your pick a small number estimate of 300 rounds from the life of a new barrel. It might add 300 rounds of life to an old barrel, but again, that's what it was designed to do. It definitely wasn't designed to remove 0.030" of the throat in a new barrel which it will easily do.
Originally Posted By: songdogslayer....I'd rather get 1200 - 1500 rounds of stone-reliable accuracy out of my son's .243 than 1500 - 2000 rounds of 'spray & pray' accuracy.....
Again, you will get good accuracy from a decent factory barrel without trying to improve it with drastic, last ditch efforts. All the Tubbs system is going to do is use up useful barrel life. It doesn't cure cancer...or a bad barrel.
If you'll read the comments following yours posted by TA17rem, kelbro, and Fitch - and if you can understand what they are saying - then maybe you'll understand why I find other comments like yours amusing.
Breaking in a barrel on a factory rifle is one topic...using the Tubbs final finish to do it is pure folly. Why not just run a patch with sand paper down the tube to "break it in"..? That would probably cause less throat damage to a new barrel than your silly approach is doing.
Originally Posted By: songdogslayer....(and I won't be running it through the replacement McGowen 1:8 I bought for my own .243)....
As for McGowen barrels, I've seen a few new ones in the past that needed help from the start. Maybe you're on to something there with your sand paper treatment.... Don't rule the Tubbs system out in your scenario if, in your mind, it helps new, rough finished barrels.
In fact, a McGowen barrel is comparable to a good custom hand-lapped barrel about like a Volkswagen Beatle is comparable to a fine luxury car.. For not a lot of money more, you could have bought a good hand-lapped custom barrel from several reputable barrel makers that require no break in and are at their best when the first shot is fired through them - or the maker will replace them. That's not normal history with a McGowen barrel. Also fact; many of the factory rifle barrels running around that you say require abrasive treatment just to make them shoot coming out of the box are in fact McGowen barrels.
Beyond that: It's obvious you know very little about me or any experiences I've had, which is AOK with me. Maybe some folks only buy barrels that they will assume to be bad from the git-go, while other folks only buy barrels that they expect to be good shooters at the start.
In the interim while you're thinking about that statement, keep guessing, relax, and go have... 1 Bourbon 1 Scotch 1 Beer. It might help you to not take yourself so seriously.
TA17rem, kelbro, and Fitch: Good posts. Your posts and a few others here are spot on for useable information. Hopefully readers will take your comments to heart and not waste useful barrel life doing absolutely nothing productive for a new barrel.
The rest of the posts just make you want to giggle a little bit, even though that obviously offends some folks... I just hope those in doubt can sort through reliable truthful facts like you provided, and the otherwise silly and laughable fiction others have posted here..
-BCB
BCB, I always wonder what the motivation is when someone posts an off-handed remark suggesting the thread is something other than worth the time to read it. Maybe just being funny is reason enough to read it? What's so funny? Subject line reads Fire Lapping Results and the contributions appear to be on the up & up . . . maybe you're against breaking in a factory barrel, or fire lapping . . . ?
Have a good wk/end gang,
-Scott
songdog:
Oh my....where to start...?
Originally Posted By: songdogslayer.....The first 50 rounds through this particular .243 were the final finish rounds. .....Tubbs final finish is one of the steps I will always use in a factory rifle."
First off...If you buy a factory rifle with a bad barrel in it, no amount of breaking in, fire lapping, or Papal Blessings are going to turn it into a decent shooter. Only a new barrel will do that.
If the barrel is found to be decently accurate from the git-go after firing it, why shoot abrasive bullets through it to "improve it". Using the barrel normally will do the same thing without excessive wear on the barrel. I definitely wouldn't shoot abrasive bullets through any barrel of any age without knowing the accuracy level of the barrel to begin with. Why waste good barrel steel and barrel life just because "once upon a time in a land far away" the Tubbs system helped prolong the life of a poorly cared for old barrel? That's what the Tubbs system was designed for... It's not designed for using in new barrels with unknown accuracy potential when new. And the Tubbs final finish system will generally remove far more than your pick a small number estimate of 300 rounds from the life of a new barrel. It might add 300 rounds of life to an old barrel, but again, that's what it was designed to do. It definitely wasn't designed to remove 0.030" of the throat in a new barrel which it will easily do.
Originally Posted By: songdogslayer....I'd rather get 1200 - 1500 rounds of stone-reliable accuracy out of my son's .243 than 1500 - 2000 rounds of 'spray & pray' accuracy.....
Again, you will get good accuracy from a decent factory barrel without trying to improve it with drastic, last ditch efforts. All the Tubbs system is going to do is use up useful barrel life. It doesn't cure cancer...or a bad barrel.
If you'll read the comments following yours posted by TA17rem, kelbro, and Fitch - and if you can understand what they are saying - then maybe you'll understand why I find other comments like yours amusing.
Breaking in a barrel on a factory rifle is one topic...using the Tubbs final finish to do it is pure folly. Why not just run a patch with sand paper down the tube to "break it in"..? That would probably cause less throat damage to a new barrel than your silly approach is doing.
Originally Posted By: songdogslayer....(and I won't be running it through the replacement McGowen 1:8 I bought for my own .243)....
As for McGowen barrels, I've seen a few new ones in the past that needed help from the start. Maybe you're on to something there with your sand paper treatment.... Don't rule the Tubbs system out in your scenario if, in your mind, it helps new, rough finished barrels.
In fact, a McGowen barrel is comparable to a good custom hand-lapped barrel about like a Volkswagen Beatle is comparable to a fine luxury car.. For not a lot of money more, you could have bought a good hand-lapped custom barrel from several reputable barrel makers that require no break in and are at their best when the first shot is fired through them - or the maker will replace them. That's not normal history with a McGowen barrel. Also fact; many of the factory rifle barrels running around that you say require abrasive treatment just to make them shoot coming out of the box are in fact McGowen barrels.
Beyond that: It's obvious you know very little about me or any experiences I've had, which is AOK with me. Maybe some folks only buy barrels that they will assume to be bad from the git-go, while other folks only buy barrels that they expect to be good shooters at the start.
In the interim while you're thinking about that statement, keep guessing, relax, and go have... 1 Bourbon 1 Scotch 1 Beer. It might help you to not take yourself so seriously.
TA17rem, kelbro, and Fitch: Good posts. Your posts and a few others here are spot on for useable information. Hopefully readers will take your comments to heart and not waste useful barrel life doing absolutely nothing productive for a new barrel.
The rest of the posts just make you want to giggle a little bit, even though that obviously offends some folks... I just hope those in doubt can sort through reliable truthful facts like you provided, and the otherwise silly and laughable fiction others have posted here..
-BCB
bigwheeler
New member
I made my own lapping bullets for a super redhawk years ago. The gun
shot 5-6 moa and the rifling looked like it was cut with a hammer and
chisel. The gun has shot 3" @ 100 ever since. 2 1/8" was my best ever group.
So in my case it worked and since a revolver has a forcing cone I wasn't as
worried about the throat as I would have been with a rifle.
shot 5-6 moa and the rifling looked like it was cut with a hammer and
chisel. The gun has shot 3" @ 100 ever since. 2 1/8" was my best ever group.
So in my case it worked and since a revolver has a forcing cone I wasn't as
worried about the throat as I would have been with a rifle.
Evil_Lurker
New member
Quote:After more shooting I don't think the fire lapping improved the accuracy much.
You might think about having the barrel recrowned.
You might think about having the barrel recrowned.
Dakota Yote
New member
Most match grade barrels have already been hand lapped by them. For instance my PacNor super match barrel was already hand lapped by them. In the warranty, and I believe many other costume barrel makers, if you lap the barrel yourself you have just voided the warranty. I have hand lapped a few rough barrels on factory rifles, but it hasn't always improved accuracy. It is best to lap a barrel as soon as you get it. If any copper is still in the barrel after cleaning you are now lapping away at the remaining copper and not the barrel itself in those places. Fire lapping will reduce the life of your barrel more than hand lapping. One of the things I like best, other than the possibility of improving accuracy, is the reduced copper fouling.
Edit to add: Been away to long and need to make sure I read all pages before posting.
Edit to add: Been away to long and need to make sure I read all pages before posting.
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