Wind bucking ability @ 500 yrds

chuck hunter

chuck hunter

New member
I'm not sure where to post this.


I was watching this video about shooting a 223 at a 1000 yrds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCJxQqkgGf0&feature=related
and it brought up this thought.

When I was young I read about the snipers in Vietnam using the 308 with the heavy bullets.
I never questioned the statements that heavy bullets were deflected less in the wind.
I’ve used my 7MM-08 while P dog and chuck hunting and did not like the rainbow trajectory, but the bullet would pick-up a chuck and through him if I could connect.

My 22-250 has a flatter trajectory and I’m sure the Swift would be even better. I’ve never owned one.
When I bought a .204, it really opened eyes.
That thing is so flat shooting I love it.
It’s like shooting the Swift but more fuel-efficient.
Great P dog gun. A little light for chucks ( in my opinion ) but I can aim right at a Coyote at 400 yrds and nail him it’s so flat shooting.

When I’m shooting my 7MM-08 at a P dog 500 yrds away, the wind will push the bullet 4 to 5"s to the left (down wind).
When I’m shooting my .204 at the same P dog I hit 2” Down wind.

That brings me to the thought that the smaller bullet has less time in the air (4000 fps) and it has less surface area for the wind to push it off course.
The larger heavier bullet is in the air longer and has more surface area for the wind to deflect the bullet.
I am sure there is a point of diminishing returns on the lightweight bullets.

I’m not exactly sure at what point the bullet loses it’s energy.
I know the lighter bullets shed energy quicker allowing the wind more effect it at some point in time.
So I’m talking about a 500 yrd shot here.

Now, I’ve said all that to ask this question.
What is your opinion on wind bucking.

What have you experienced and what’s your thinking?
Do the fast light bullet buck the wind better than the slower heavier bullets on a 500 yrds shot?


 
I know that my .243 AI pushing 105 Amaxs at 3200 will drop about the same and drift a lot less at 500 yds as a .204 shooting a 32 SBK at 3900. Put some 162 Amaxs in your 7mm-08 and I am pretty sure that you will have less drift than your .204.
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator2I know that my .243 AI pushing 105 Amaxs at 3200 will drop about the same and drift a lot less at 500 yds as a .204 shooting a 32 SBK at 3900. Put some 162 Amaxs in your 7mm-08 and I am pretty sure that you will have less drift than your .204.
Thanks for your input.
We can all learn from each other.
But the heavy bullets still give me that rainbow trajectory.
 
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Oh, I forgot to add that B.C RULES at long range. My 105s start off at 3200 and the .204 starts off at 4000, yet at about 400 yards my 105s drop the same amount. At 700 I think I am about 9-10 MOA less drop and a lot less wind drift. Thats when I found out that a high B.C absolutely rules at long range.
 
CH, i've been following some of your postings here and it sounds like u're really getting into long-range varminting. One of the things that helped me a lot when i 1st started into this stuff was studying external ballistics via the ballistics programs. When it comes to downrange wind effects it's probably about as important as experience is, or at least close to it. Oftentimes when guys build a rig up for a specific purpose the 1st thing they usually pick is the bullet, oftentimes more than the case, since it's the bullet that dictates many other aspects of a good custom build, and downrange ballistics is a big part of the system. Here's what i mean. Got a buddy that's shooting a big 7mm cartridge out of an XP-100 handgun (18" barrel). The bullet he picked has such a high BC that it beats the 300 Mag rifle using the 180 Accubond right out the muzzle for windage, going something like 300-400 fps faster than the handgun. Understanding the mechanics behind a ballistic coefficent will go a long ways towards downrange success, especially when it comes to long-range varminting. The best reference there is for that that i know of is Bryan Litz book, Applied Ballistic for Long-Range Shooting, i think it's called. Go to jbm ballistics too. That's another site that'll help. Lot of guys here will help as well. longrangehunting.com is another.
 
I've posted a couple of video clips shooting 500 yrds at P dogs.
That isn't the every day shot most are under 350 yards but I like the long range work.
I've been VERY happy with my .204 on the P dogs.
Very fast, flat and fuel efficient.
Because most shots are less than 500, it's a great cartridge.
I will use my 7MM-08 at times, but it uses more powder and after 40 shots or so, I notice my nerves get jangled and I start to shake a little.
Then I get jumpy as I'm pulling the trigger.
I never get that with my .024 or 22-250.
BUT........
It's good to know about wind bucking because I don't JUST shoot P dogs.
There are other critters to shoot at.
Using the heavy calibers and bullets gets to be hard on my wallet and nerves, but when you are shooting at an antelope at 500 yrds, this information IS very helpful.
 
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I missed more p.dogs from shooting over and under them than from wind.

Practice with what you have out in the dessert; set up targets at different ranges. You will get a feel for what the wind is doing at certain speeds. Get a scope that has target knobs, they are worth their weight in gold. I learned to dial in for windage before I ever fire a shot. There are little wind gages you can get and ballistic programs for free that will put you on target quickly.

A Remington 700 in 7 Mag loaded with the 162g Amax, loaded with Retumbo at 3100+ is real medicine for those longer range shots with wind. Mine sports a Muzzle break and kicks like a 243.
 
I have the varmint reticals in all my scopes to give me a hold over line and windage dots, but the wind is the real problem for me.
I have turret knobs on the scope in this video (link below) so I CAN do the dialing you are talking about.
When you look at this video, notice that the wind direction changes from one shot to the next.
It's hard to compensate for that.
I have a streamer set up near the target to see the wind direction
You cant run out and set up a streamer when your shooting at a antelope .



But thanks for the advice.
We can all learn from each other.
 
Dammed amazing shooting u're doing there sir. Here's the anemometers that i have used in the field. U guys may have missed out on the slickest anemometer of all time [beeep]--the Speedtech Weather Watch Pro that's in the middle, with the pop-up anemometer. I have used this device 3x in the field for successful long-range shots in the wind. When i get out of the truck i take a wind measurement and think about how it feels, then i try to gauge it when i need to take a long shot--
IMG_0743.jpg


I always establish a system for my rigs when i go to field. Even the simple plex reticle can prove beneficial for long-range shooting by applying a system for it. The below photo shows where i had to aim in a 10 mph full value 3 o'clock wind to kill a coyote several years ago with a 17 Mach IV XP-100 handgun-- the x-hair to plex post tip in this 4-12x Burris Mini measured 2.6 MOA @ 12x. And with my load the 300-yd. shot required .6 of that subtension for elevation and 1.25 for windage.
IMG_0745.jpg

Here's the dope system for this reticle that i use on my 6.5 WSM XP-100--
HUMRDiagram.jpg

435-yd. coyote @ 1.5 mil, 0 wind
065_65.jpg

066_66.jpg

IMG_0628.jpg

IMG_0630.jpg

As far as i can tell this system is the fastest and most efficient system of shooting to intermediate ranges (~400-600 yds.)--
 
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Here's another CH--probably the world record for the longest handgun shot ever made. Buddy Ernie Bishop using a 6-284 XP-100/115 gr. DTAC bullet on the 9th shot in some 2-5 mph variable wind (the secret to shooting in the wind is to use the higher BC bullets that MINIMIZE HORIZONTAL DANGER SPACE). I saw it all happen thru my Big Eyes--

img012.jpg

HPIM0060.jpg
 
CH if u're into the SP's at long-range u should consider coming out this next year in June to Rich Mertz Thousand-yd. Handgun shoot. It's been going on now for 3 or 4 years and this year there will be a roving field shoot (like a sniper-style comp.). Here's a link to some Rich's shoot--
http://www.moaguns.com/1000ctshoot.html
Mark Hampton's gonna have an article on it in the next issue of American Handgunner mag.
 
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Nice XP's.
I have some to.
I'm so impressed with my .204 that my brain has been thinking fast and flat.
But that only works at around 500 yards with my .204.

The rifle I was shooting in that video was a Remington 40X in a 6MM BR.
2 years ago I was shooting a 65 gr V-max.
After buying the .204 I wanted to get more speed and a flatter trajectory so I drooped down to the 58 gr V-max.
I think if I was shooing beyond 1000 yrds I'd have to go to the heaver bullets be cause the lighter one WILL start shedding energy.
I was coyote hunting about 5 years ago and saw two coyotes walk out of the sage brush (in the morning)and bed down, for the day out on the salt flats. (Utah)
They were 1000 yards out and there wasn't a bush, stick, or leaf to hide behind to sneak up on them.
So I was setting up my rifle to shoot at 1000 yrds.
In that video, I only got to 700 yrds and I could see the wind was the real problem.
I may have to go to a bigger caliber to reach out and touch those yodel dogs.
I have my rifle set up similar to the way you have yours.
I'm using the varmint reticle to give me a hold over point at distance.

leupold_varmint.jpg


The post (last line) is good to 600 yrds and most of my shooting is less than that.
Then after that I have tall turrets with micrometers to dial it beyond 600.
Then I'm using a Newcon optic 3000 yrds laser range finder to mark 650,700, 800, 900 yrds and so on.
Once my bullet hits 650 yards I make a note of the number on the dial and write it on my ballistic chart and so on.

http://swfa.com/Leupold-ScopeSmith-Ballistic-Charts-C996.aspx


IMG_0621.jpg


On a calm day, I'm sure I could reach out to 1000 yrds but you can't always depend on the wind.
The wind is the real enemy here
 
Originally Posted By: sscoyoteCH if u're into the SP's at long-range u should consider coming out this next year in June to Rich Mertz Thousand-yd. Handgun shoot. It's been going on now for 3 or 4 years and this year there will be a roving field shoot (like a sniper-style comp.). Here's a link to some Rich's shoot--
http://www.moaguns.com/1000ctshoot.html
Mark Hampton's gonna have an article on it in the next issue of American Handgunner mag.

Sounds interesting.
Is it in Wyoming?
 
Nice system CH. I also have a VH reticle on a Savage Striker 243 WSSM. I shoot the 117 DTAC out of it @ 2525 mv. I use a system very similar to yours, but with the .6 BC of that bullet the windage is almost 1/2 of all the subtensions. I also calc. turret clicks beyond the reticle's lower post tip, but i just don't feel comfortable (anymore) going beyond 500-600 yds. on a 6" vital-zoned coyote with any of my rigs.

Yes, the shoot is in Sundance, about 1/2 hour east of Gillette--where Ernie lives, BTW.
 
When the 243 WSSM came out, I was all hot and bothered to get one.
(It's a scaled up 6MM BR.)
Then it kind of feel out of favor.
I did a lot of reading about it and found that the barrels take so much punishment from the heat and pressure, they had to chrome line them to hold up over 10,000 shots and that caused many accuracy problems.
Plus in a striker, it seems over bored.
I'm a 6MM BR fan and have 3.
One in a striker and one in a XP.

What type of barrel do you have on that 243 WSSM in a striker?
Is it chrome line?
Stainless?
Chrome moly?
 
U know i have also read a lot about the WSSM's. Norm Johnson has done a lot of testing with the WSSM's. When they 1st came out the big push was to run the lighter bullets at the highest vel. possible, and could have something to do with the barrel heating issue. I'm driving the higher-BC'd bullets at low velocities and have no issues at all with it. I have an 18" Broughton on it and it cleans as EASY as anything i've ever used. A lot of guys talk about the overbore problem and i agree that there's a law of diminishing results with it, but the fact remains that it's a relative issue. Whatever u run in the shorter barrels u still lose the same ~25-40 fps/" of barrel length anyway. Besides that this rig is strictly set up for big game and coyotes so it doesn't see a lot of use. I probably have about a thous. rounds through it now and it still delivers about 1/2 to 3/4 MOA with the 117 gr. load. No way i'd ever use it in a prairie dog town.

U think this is overbore u oughtta' see what Ernie's building--a full blown 338 Lapua Mag. XP-100 (i think) with whatever barrel twist will stabilize the 300 gr. SMK. May be overbore but i'll bet dollars to donuts he's gonna' do some things with it WAAAYYY out there.
 
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Even though I started this post, it's getting off topic for the folks interested in wind bucking.
Soooooooo let's take this to the PM level.
 
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