Les Baer Super Varmint Model in 223

sir my thoughts may be biased because LB would not sponsor me in the good years of my shooting career- they only sponsor women. BUT- here goes anyway- if you can get an upper for about 1100 or less then it is a worthwhile deal. Anymore than that for just an upper I would talk to White oak (John Holligher). John recently built me one in 223 for competition and yotes and it shoots very well. John has built many uppers for me and other competitors and has put many of us on stage including National champion victories. LB started off building short sticks and got into AR plate forms later. Not saying they are not good, I am sure they are. But proof is in the pudding (or hanging titles on the wall). Champions Choice sell the LB complete 223 comp gun for a little over 2 or 2.2K. I don't know any hard guns that shoot LB, maybe it is the price? Seems steep to me. Talk to John ask for turn on a Krieger tube. Good luck and stay center. JHG
 
I'm fairly sure Skeetlee on this board had a Les Baer like you're describing. He could probably give you some good feedback on it.
 
My local shop uses a LB to sell other brands... examine it, look at the test groups and compare yourself. Guess it is working because he moves AR's daily using the comparision and the LB sits. I believe load development is the key here. If you have a good gun to start with, you can get it shooting to most satisfaction.
 
The 1/2" guarantee is a bit bogus. In order to shoot 1/2" consistently, you need to use a rest, and the stock in this unit (or any AR clone) is not conducive to being shot off a rest. The trigger has to be very consistent, as does your hold, and the scope has to be top-drawer and stress-free. Everything has to be just so...

The autoloader, by it's very design, won't chamber a round the same way every time either, and the magazine won't allow you to seat the bullets to within .020" of the lands, as needed.

Let's be honest here - besides the fact that this isn't a bench gun, and you pretty much need to bench shoot for 1/2 MOA or better groups, in a practical situation your hold and skills are the true limiting factor.

When LB, Cooper, Kimber, Nosler, Spencer, Borden, etc...guarantee 1/2 MOA, they shoot it from a machine rest or bags, and single-load the rounds so that they can seat them out to the lands. They typically shoot several groups and send you the 'good one or two', not the 4 or 5 other ones that shot MOA or larger.

That being said, you'd have to shoot the thing under practically 'BR' conditions to get that group size, and it wouldn't be consistent.

I wouldn't pay a premium for a guarantee that couldn't be reproduced in field conditions.

I have been a gunsmith for over 15 years, and have built many a rifle, including 1/10th inch group LV/HV benchrest guns. If you want a 1/2 MOA rifle, you are looking at a bolt gun with a premium barrel, and stock that will ride bags, and a trued action. For the 'black rifle', 1 to 1.5MOA is what you can expect for a consistent group size/accuracy level.

I'm not trying to pee on your parade, I just don't want to see you spend a premium and be bitterly disappointed, or burn up the barrel in frustration shooting group after group that doesn't ever measure up.

 
skip,
I think it's mostly common knowledge when a manufacture gives a a claim like that it is meant off the bench in controlled environment. I hate to rain on your parade , but a lot of black guns can shoot that. now days a lot of stock out of box rifles will shoot with mfg match ammo under 3/4" and smaller with handloads. I agree built rifles at longer distance and better constancy but at 100yds 1/2" groups is very common.
 
I'm not any kind of "expert" shooter, but my D-Tech .223 upper with an Oly SUM barrel will cloverleaf 5 pretty much every time off the bi-pod at 100. I have a Jewell trigger in it, and a 4-12 Monarch AO.
I'm thinking in a machine rest, that would give a Les Baer a pretty good challenge, and it's a ton cheaper.
That said, if somebody gave me a Les Baer, I wouldn't be too upset, either.
grin.gif
 
I guess I'll have to do a little raining myself. I owned a RRA Pred., bone stock, out the box, would shoot 60gr. V-Max into a little bitty bug hole group, almost every time I did my part. Of course, talking off a bench. I doubt very many bench rifles will shoot bug holes off a bi-pod or off a set of shooting sticks. Before I rant off the subject, the RRA out the door was only a grand. There, now I'm done!
 
I had one for a while. It could shoot for sure. I ended up needing tuition money so I sold it though. The 1/2" is suppose to be with 69gr Fed. Gold Medal ammo. Which I was able to duplicate. BUT with black hill blue box 60gr v-max it would one hole'em. I was able to hit the primer pockets at 100yds more then not. Was the rifle worth it? Yes. Could a cheaper rifle do the same? MAybe. But at that time I just wanted a rifle that would shoot and was willing to pay extra to insure that I got it right the first time.
 
I have two custom built uppers that cost way less than what a Les Baer costs, about half if you add in the lower with a tuned match grade trigger and they both will keep up with the claims of accuracy that LB makes, on a consistent basis...

I would suggest having one built by a reputable gunsmith that specializes in ARs and put the money you save into ammo and/or any 'dress up' accessories to suit your taste..

There are two basic items that really affect AR accuracy... The quality of the barrel and the quality of the trigger...everything else is generally superficial...

Certainly your optics/sights will play a part, but the basic set-up will get you by if the barrel and trigger are good..,.
 
1/2'' out of any AR isnt very had to do.
Most are capital of that but probly at least 75% of the shooters I see at the ranges are not capital.
If I have a gun that wont shoot 1/2'' it ends up going down the road,plain and simple.
 
Thanks for all of the informative replies!

While I am sure the Les Baer 223 can shoot 1/2" or less, I am very sure I could not duplicate that myself.

My interest was sparked when I saw one listed on Gun Broker by a local gun dealer. I called him directly and asked him if I could come over and look at it as I had never seen a Les Baer AR before.

He told me no and rudely informed me that he was not running a 'Petting Zoo'. He did add however that if I gave him a certified check for the full amount that I could touch it all I wanted at home.

So much for customer service.
 
I will save the site moderator some work on this: Sounds like a typical x7^$#_+@?/%ED AH old X54-$3( that can't shoot anyway, Have a great Monday.
 
HA- that dealer there would be short on work around here with an attitude like that. I would have told him off before I left his store. That is a nice hyena - so rare that i can't even spell it.

See if White Oak or one of the custom shops can build you an upper- they should run about 1-1.1K with a choice barrel. i saw that MIDWAY had a whole bunch of vaitaions and not too costly- but then again I don't know whose barrel they are using.
 
Oh- also I seen some bench rest champion shooters with those 10 thousandths of inch guns that can't hit ditly once you put ears on that target. They would throw away some 1/2 inch gun or have a lamp shade made out of it. So if you can or you can't hold MOA- everything changes when antlers or ears on it come running for your chirper and your in some "pinch a loaf" squat position not ready for him in that direction. We can talk about training for that shot later. enjoy.
 
Originally Posted By: GySgtOh- also I seen some bench rest champion shooters with those 10 thousandths of inch guns that can't hit ditly once you put ears on that target. They would throw away some 1/2 inch gun or have a lamp shade made out of it. So if you can or you can't hold MOA- everything changes when antlers or ears on it come running for your chirper and your in some "pinch a loaf" squat position not ready for him in that direction. We can talk about training for that shot later. enjoy.

Ha ! I like that !
 
for the original question: I have the Les Baer M4 and I love it. I don't know about the 1/2" but I know it shoots much better than I can. I have to assume the super varmint would perform as well.

of all the AR style rifles I own or have examined, the LBC is one of the best for fit and finish I have seen.

I am sure there are several guns out there that shoot real nice and have a good fit and finish. If you like the LBC, don't be afraid of what you are paying for - you will get your money's worth.

PM me if you want specifics on the LBC.
 
I've got one and like it just fine. Shoots and functions well. It has a nice coating but the varmiter is a bit heavy. I don't think you would be dissatified with it, would another rifle shoot as well, probably, but the LB is a good one.
 
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