Lake City 5.56 VS WIN. 223 brass

Oregon310

Oregon310

New member
Ok, here's the deal. 500 new, unprimed pieces of LC 5.56 & Win. 223 brass are close to the same price. So here are my questions.

1) I resize all my new brass, so would 5.56 or 223 be better, or would it even matter.

2) Which brass would you buy between the two & why ?

All the loads from this brass will be fired from AR's, one with a 5.56 chamber & the other with a wylde chamber if that would matter to you.


Thanks for looking
 
Two weeks ago I would have said there's probably not a big difference between the two if sized and trimmed the same BUT last week I was doing some load testing and found with the exact load the only differnce being LC brass vs. Winchester brass - LC brass loads (ALL OF THEM) shot like crap compared to the Win and even Rem brass. All were trimmed and sized using the same equipment to the same spec's. It took many loads to come to this conclusion but I sorted all my LC brass out and stored them separately and they won't come back out until absolutely needed or I sell them.
 

here's a bit of measuring I did a while back

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There's nothing wrong with Lake City brass and just because it didn't shoot good with your "proven" load proves nothing. Apparently that load wasn't taylored to your Lake City brass.

Chances are, all other things being equal, the loads would shoot just as good if they were worked up again in the Lake City brass. Probably more or less powder.

Loads are like recipes. Changing one ingredient can throw it all off.
 
Originally Posted By: kelbroSounds like a capacity difference between the LC and the Win.



my thought also, I shoot alot of LC brass and it shoot as good or better than the rest.
 
Lake City works great for me. major difference between LC and 223 is that it has a thicker web. Helps with the higher pressure loads found in 5.56Nato. Form trim and work up a load, you will be happy.

Adam
 
PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT DUCKDOG IS SAYING! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 5,56 BRASS AND COMMERCIAL 223 BRASS, IS IT INTERCHANGEABLE YES! IS IT THE SAME DIMENSION INSIDE NO! DIFFERENT PRESSURES WILL OCCUR WITH IDENTICAL POWDER CHARGES.
 
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 5,56 BRASS AND COMMERCIAL 223 BRASS

I don't think that's a given. Last bunch I weighed the LC wasn't any heavier than several commercial brands.

But it could be, you need to weigh cases and see.

Manufacturer Avg. Wt.(Sample) Extreme Spread Standard Deviation
Lapua----------- 93.35--(100)--- 1.2 gr.------ 0.31 gr.
Hornady--------- 93.88---(50)--- 1.7 gr.------ 0.43 gr.
Federal---------- 96.28---(50)--- 2.3gr.-------0.75 gr.
Lake City '04----- 92.97---(50)--- 2.5 gr.------ 0.61 gr.
WCC 99---------- 95.5----(20)--- 2.9 gr.------ 0.74 gr.
IMG (Guatemalan) 95.42---(25)--- 3.1 gr.------ 0.88 gr.
PMP------------- 104.4---(50)--- 3.9 gr.------ 0.93 gr.
Radway---------- 96.05---(50)--- 4.1 gr.------ 0.89 gr.
PMC------------- 93.48---(20)--- 4.6 gr.------ 1.36 gr.
Remington-------- 92.33---(50)---4.9 gr.------ 0.85 gr.
Winchester------- 93.91---(44)--- 6.5 gr.------ 0.96 gr.

There's a data set from 6mmbr.com and the LC is actually at the low end of the weight scale. The PMP would represent a heavy military case.

6mmbr.com link

Quote: After Lapua, the recent Lake City brass is very good, and it offers the highest case capacity, at 30.6 grains.

So weigh a few of yours up and see what you get. Just because LC '04 was like that isn't any guarantee yours is.
But I've never run across any that was heavy, yet.
 
Evil; Your right about the weight. Here's the catch. If you take a fired unsized case[I used a 06 LC and rem 223 both weighing the same] and filled them to the top of neck with powder[I used TAC for it's fine grain] Both cases took 34gr. Then I FL resized both cases and found the rem to take 31.5gr and 06 LC took 30.8 gr. Then I cut each case in half length ways and found the base thickness to be .o225 for the LC and .o186 for the rem.
A resized case changes the inside dimensions, so say both cases recieved an near max load of TAC or any other rather fast burning rifle powder. The LC case would ignite at higher pressure. Another factor is small capacity and faster burning powders are much less 'forgiving'. I also saw that data taken from 6mmbr.com site, it's been requoted on several forums so I decided to research the problem after seeing pressure changes in commercial and mil brass with same powder charges.
Just a thought for what it's worth! Chuck
 
Lake City Brass is Federal "Military Spec" brass and yes it is a bit thicker which results in less internal capacity. Which is what many of the previous posts mention.

The same load will shoot hotter with greater pressures in L.C. Brass that other types of "commercial" (Winchester) Brass.

Just another example of why you should never take someone else's load and shoot it with out reducing and working you way up.

IMO and experience
With Proper loading technics & load developement, you should be able to develope just as accurate load with LC brass as others.
 
Yeah, I thought about possibility that the brass may be distributed inside the case differently. Tha would result in a slighly different pressure curve as the powder column burned.

So, I agree with you, they're not identical, just because they weigh the same.

I was trying to kill that notion that LC brass is "thicker", since on the average (over the entire case), it's not, or it would weigh more.

I'm going to find a couple the same weight (LC, Win. and Rem.) and do a capacity test. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that 30.8 to 31.5 sounds fishy to me.
The same amount of brass, formed to identical exterior dimensions, seems to me would yield identical interior volumes.
As the base gets thicker, the walls would have to get thinner (to weigh the same), and it seems it should all balance out to zero difference.

But I've eaten crow before with my "thinking", so let me ponder it for a while and do some checking.
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I'm going to be using small-base dies, not sure if that's a factor or not.
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It would have sounded fishy to me too, particularly after finding each fired case capacity measuring the same. The surprise came after resizing! Both cases I presume were fired in semi-auto guns [ I picked this brass up on desert in same spot among several rounds all with streaked soot marks]. I'm on the same page with you on quality of LC brass. But I don't mix manufacturers especially for contender loads. I didn't use small base dies, will be interesting .
 
If your starting with VIRGIN LC brass, all the same lot, it is every bit as consistant as any commercial Win brass. The case capacity issue noted in the earlier posts does make some loads vary more than others depending on the powder used, it's temperature sensitivity, and ambient temperature. I get around this issue by using a less temp sensitive powder like Benchmark or Varget.

Case unformity and capacity can be addressed by uniforming all cases and sorting by headstamp and lot if possible. If you can get by with only neck sizing with a DEDICATED shoulder-bump bushing type die, your going to see very little difference in accuracy or POI between the Win or LC brass. Tests I have done with both cases in my RRA AR show virtually no difference with the same near max loads. If your using the same die setup for both your ARs, neck sizing is not very feasible. I would still recommend using dedicated FL sizing dies for both ARs to control headspace clearance independently. You still need to work up the best loads for your rifle. If you FL size with small base dies or standard dies, the smaller case capacity can make some loads vary enough to notice changes in pressure, velocity, and POI.

Using mixed LC brass VS Win brass from the same lot is not a fair test of LC brass. I have found that the LC lots I have seem to keep the primer pockets tighter, longer, than the Win brass. The virgin LC cases that have not had the primer pockets crimped, reamed, or swaged are very nice to work with, outlast the Win brass, and shoot just as good.

I would take new Win brass over mixed lots of LC brass. Since I am loading near max, I would take the new LC brass over the Win brass, if the price was the same.

The 223 Rem VS 5.56 chamber VS the Wylde chamber is really not worth considering as it applies to the brass.
 
I purchased 2000 rds of 5.56 brass from http://www.scharch.com/ for a PD shoot in Wyoming. Based upon the info already published above regarding the LC case uniformity when compared to Win brass there was not a question.
I will take 25 fps loss in velocity and gain in accuracy any day of the week.
This is not a pie in the sky claim.
My reloads has a extreme spread of 5 fps. I have never obtain that when using WIN brass - in fact I will go so far as to say WIN brass is crap.
I used Benchmark, Rem BR Primers, and Rem bulk 50gr HP bullets (laugh if you wish), group sizes out my stock M700VS in 223 were 0.39" for 10 shots. I loaded them to 3400 fps.
My son and I went thru 1550 rds of ammo during our 3 day shoot.
 
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