Guard animals

NASA

New member
Sheep herders have used dogs for centuries for herding and guarding small flocks of sheep. But coyotes always seem to know how to draw off the dog and bag at least one lamb, anyway.
Now, I hear that llamas are supposed to be better guard animals than dogs. Seems to me that a hungry coyote might just see a llama as a long legged, long necked sheep. Any ranchers out there with experience or opinions?
 
NASA:

Believe it or not, but a couple of landowners that have invited me to hunt Yotes on their land are Llama ranchers or herders or whatever.

Anyhow, they seem to have the same problems as cattle and sheep ranchers do. Primarily with the birthing season, but during the rest of the year it seems that the coyotes don't really mess with them like they do sheep, more like cattle, as they are big and fairly handy at protecting themselves.

There are reports of incidents of adults being chased and killed in the winter by a "pack" of what is believed to be coyotes. I have yet to have that information verified and it may well be feral dogs for that matter.

I also know of a couple of hog/pig farmers that have had problems too.....

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one shot~one kill
 
I kinda' thought that might be the case, but living where I do, I had no experience to draw on.
The A/R folks are proposing that ranchers make more use of llamas and and have less dependency on Federal and local ADC programs. They seem to be getting some States to listen to them. I can't see how this could possibly work.
 
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i suspect more than you wanted to know about llamas......

http://www.rockisland.com/~castalia/guard.html

http://www.mor-llama.com/Guard%20Llama.htm
http://www.llama-llocater.com/guard_llama_guidelines.html

http://www.llamapaedia.com/behavior/guardbehav.html
 
NASA, I was in Wyoming a few years back and saw a llama with the cattle, needless to say I never seen that before and I come from a cattle ranching family, I said to myself, what the hell is that thing doing out there, so I went and ask one of the cowboys what the heck was that thing doing with the cattle, and he told me that the coyotes are scared of llamas, I did'nt believe it then and I still don't, there ain't no damn coyote scared of a llama, I think all them ranchers got took big time. Hey NASA, come to Apple Valley and I'll sell you an apple tree, hehehehe.
 
I'll tell you one thing. Llamas can be mean SOB's. They'll kick, bite and head butt the crap out of ya'! Piss one off and find out. I imagine that one llama can fend off a coyote or two.

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Bye y'all
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B. Pierce
 
Here is an article I pulled up on "Predator Friendly Wool"...no sh*t. Llamas are part of the program. There was a TV program last year funded by, who else, Ted Turner that promoted Predator Friendly Beef. All you have to do is leave the coyotes alone, get a donkey, a llama, and a dog.......problem solved.
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The sixites were very, very good to these people.
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WESTERN ROUNDUP

Can sheep and coyote ever coexist?
by Todd Wilkinson

Finding a niche has never been a problem for the coyote. The wily predator thrives in dense forests, bone-dry deserts and even cities, despite more than a century of human persecution.


Taking a cue from the coyote, a scrappy coalition of conservationists, biologists, entrepreneurs and ranchers in Montana is trying to claw its way into the unstable woolgrowers' market of the Northern Rockies, while fostering tolerance for the dog-sized carnivore.


Two years ago, the founders of Predator Friendly Wool conceived of a way to use the market to help both predators and ranchers. They reasoned that environmentally conscious consumers might be willing to pay more for clothes made from wool grown by ranchers who don't kill coyotes. In turn, ranchers might be willing to risk leaving predators alone if they could receive premium prices - nearly double the going market rate - for their wool.


Despite vocal opposition from some ranchers, the idea is already beginning to pay off. By early 1995, nearly 1,500 pounds of Predator Friendly wool were washed and converted into a special line of hats, mittens and coats by fashion designer Cindy Owings. And the managers of Robert Redford's Sundance Company, among others, agreed to advertise the green products in 3.5 million mail order catalogs. Hundreds of consumers and a number of ranchers from around the country have phoned and written the group for more information about the idea and the products.


"We're putting our money where our mouth is," says Becky Weed, a sheep producer in the Gallatin Valley outside of Bozeman who hopes to qualify with a few bundles of wool next year. She and another Predator Friendly participant have made beautiful blankets out of the first "clean" batches of fiber sheared last spring.


To qualify for price bonuses, ranchers must meet strict criteria. No coyotes can be killed during the calendar year prior to when the sheep are sheared in the spring. Ranchers also are encouraged to adopt non-lethal methods of protecting livestock, such as stringing up electric fencing and posting guard dogs, mules, llamas and cows, which are proven deterrents. Part of the proceeds earned by Predator Friendly, which is a nonprofit organization, will be channeled back into field seminars and possibly to help woolgrowers who are interested in growing predator friendly wool, but can't afford to do it.

Finding common ground


The concept was born during an argument over coffee; conservationist Lill Erickson and rancher Dude Tyler were locked in a verbal standoff when they realized that their goals didn't have to be mutually exclusive. Money talks.


Tyler initially was skeptical about whether Predator Friendly could change any attitudes and he admits that he, too, was a tough sell. Growing up a rancher's son in what he proudly calls "the redneck bastion of Sweet Grass County," he knew only one method for handling coyotes: "You blast them," he says. "With predators, I was always taught that if you don't eliminate them, they're going to cost you money. For a long time, I assumed, like many of my neighbors, that the only good coyotes are dead coyotes."


Helping to persuade Tyler was biologist Bob Crabtree, who has studied coyotes for two decades. Crabtree says coyote-killing campaigns, which disrupt the structure of coyote society, may actually spur more predation.

"The rancher thinks that if coyotes are killing sheep, then by killing coyotes you have less predation, but that isn't necessarily the way it works," he said. "Nature is dynamic."


At the same time, environmentalists need to be sympathetic to what sheep and cattle producers are confronting, he adds. "Many environmentalists are not willing to perceive the coyote as a real economic threat to the livestock industry, which it is."


Times are hard for woolgrowers because Congress recently voted to withdraw price supports that have been in place since the end of World War II. In addition, raw wool prices have been in wild fluctuation.


Still, the bureaucracy which runs the sheep industry has been downright hostile toward the Predator Friendly idea and has even subtly threatened participating ranchers with boycotts. "Maybe if some of these growers find a small mill to accommodate them, they could theoretically succeed, but only on a small scale," says Bob Gilbert, secretary-treasurer of the 2,500 member Montana Woolgrowers Association. "It's not going to work for the whole industry."


Gilbert claims there are many areas of the high plains where sheep graze across thousands of acres and no level of preventative measures - short of aggressively killing coyotes - will provide relief. "People can't raise sheep and keep coyotes out," he says.


The opposition to Predator Friendly has at times turned nasty. Designer Owings says she has received threatening, anonymous phone calls.


"I guess I was a little surprised that woolgrowers, especially during tough economic times, would fight this the way they have," she says.


Rancher Becky Weed says most ranchers have listened politely to her pitch about Predator Friendly. But she realizes that full acceptance will only come after the idea is a proven money-maker.


"This is a real chicken-and-egg experiment," says Weed. "We don't want to recruit too many woolgrowers because the market needs to be tested first."


Aiding the cause is a diverse group of supporters. "Anything that makes predators more valuable to the landowners is a positive step in the right direction," says Terry Anderson, a natural-resource economist with the Political Economy Research Center, a conservative think tank in Bozeman. "The key is to make predators an asset instead of a liability."


"I believe this is an opportunity to do the right thing," says Tom Skeele, director of the Predator Project, which generally opposes public-lands livestock grazing.


Together, Skeele and Tyler, who also sits on the board, took part in spring shearing and fleece packing at a sheep ranch in south-central Montana. A short while ago, they would have growled at one another. "Probably the biggest positive benefit is that we have put in the same room people from two incredibly opposite sides of an emotional issue," Tyler said. "We've been able to cast our differences aside, look each other in the eye and say, "What are we going to do about it?" "




[This message has been edited by Calypso (edited 06-06-2001).]
 
The "Greenies" don't seem to get it. You can't put an electric fence around 2-3 thousand acres of Montana highland. Even if you could, that won't stop a coyote from crossing it. I've watched a coyote get zapped on the nose trying to crawl under a charged fence. After the third zap he figured it out. He turned around and started digging, all the while piling the dirt up on the bottom wire. When it was good and covered he moved over about 5 feet and tested the wire again with his nose, VERY cautiously. When he was satisfied the fence was disabled he crawled thru and took off. I watched for 15 minutes while this episode unfolded.
 
I have a llama in my yard as a pet. He assumes it is his yard. He will challenge anything and anyone that comes into his area. Too stupid to have any fear. He is so curious that he will run up to whatever comes into his area. I think that coyotes are unnerved by this behavior and bugger off when confronted. My neighbor has not lost any sheep to coyotes since he has gotten his guard llama. He says he has seen it kill a coyote with its hooves. Mind you, we may not have the density of coyotes some areas do, and they have not found out llamas are good eating, yet
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Coyotes are adaptable, and I think they can circumvent almost any system designed to keep them from their prey, if given time.
Just my ramblings.
 
We have lots of sheep around here. I remember when the donkey idea came around. Everyone had a donkey in with the sheep to keep the coyotes at bay. Sometimes it worked sometimes not. I know they would come over all fired up if you were calling in the pasture. Now everyone has switched to llamas. These can be flat out mean critters. If you get an aggressive one that has been raised with the sheep it will take on the role of big brother to the sheep and go to great lengths to kick the crap out of anything that messes with the flock. Other llamas can be pretty useless, but a good one will easily keep the coyotes away usually. Most sheep ranchers have a Great Pyrenees sheep dog or two. Like the llamas, if it is a good dog, it can be a very effective coyote deterrent. These dogs are HUGE and just live right in the field with the flock.

We all know that nothing is effective as hands on "human" coyote control though.
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Hail to the predator caller! lol

[This message has been edited by Curt (edited 06-08-2001).]
 
Now THAT could work!!

But llamas? They may be effective for a back yard operation, like a small Mom & Pop owned flock, but I can't imagine them being useful for large flocks of hundreds or even thousands of sheep. If you figure 1 llama for every 12-15 sheep you're going to need 2/3 more grazing area, which means wider distribution of the flock, which means greater exposure to more home territories of coyotes. I'm still not convinced they're effective for a commercial operation.

[This message has been edited by NASA (edited 06-07-2001).]
 
Reminds me of a story about an elephant. The Phoenix Zoo used to have an elephant named Ruby. She died a couple years ago due to complications with a pregnancy. Some of you may know of her for your paintings.
Well, when she was initially brought to the zoo, and before her painting talents were discovered, she was the only elephant at the zoo. Apparently she was kinda lonely and cranky and sometimes mean!
One of pasttimes involved the ducks wandering the zoo. With the various bodies of water and food around the zoo, ducks were allowed to roam free. Ruby would take some of her feed corn, sprinkle it onto the area outside of the enclosure and work a trail inside the bars. The ducks would take up the trail, feeding along, coming inside the enclosure, working closer to Ruby, munching the feed, quack-quack-SMASH!!!! Ruby would stomp them to dust!!!!
 
Guard animals - a favorite topic of mine. Before I start let me head off any "sure, Wiley's just protecting his job" implications. Understand that there are many occassions where we may be busy enough that it takes some time to respond to a complaint. Meanwhile the producers are loosing valuable livestock which is their livelihood. It's very presumptious to assume that someone else has a better answer to preventing livestock loss than someone who is actually experiencing it.

I have had a lot of experience with guard animals. The only guard animal that I have seen experience SOME degree of success is guard dogs such as Great Pyranees (sp?). They too have their limitations.

I once had a producer that had a Lama in open pastures. He didn't work worth a darn until after he died. After he died, I used him as a draw station to catch coyotes with.

I have numerous producers with guard dogs.

Guard dog limitations are:

1. The coyote population in the area. If coyote populations are kept down, GOOD DOGS can handle the remainder providing that the following limitations are accounted for:

2. The roughness of the terrain. If the country is not open and visible, coyotes will sneak in and do their dirty work.

3. The sheep band is not too spread out so the dogs can cover them.

4. That the dogs are doing their job. Good working guard dogs were born and raised with the sheep and are not camped on the porch licking your boots.

5. That the right sheep to dog ratio is used so that they can cover them.

If any one of these important elements are missing, they fail! I have seen them work well when all these things are in place but that is always in addition to aerial hunting to keep the coyote population at a number that the guard dogs can handle.

Donkeys and Llamas are virtually worthless for open range situations. They may have limited value in a tight enclosures but that's even a stretch. I had coyotes kill a Llama once.

"Predator friendly wool" is one of the best jokes I have ever seen played on the anti ADC groups. In a nutshell it is ranchers taking advantage of a bunch of A/R idiots. That's what it is. There was even a stipulation where you could designate a percentage of your wool crop as "predator friendly". Excuse my cynical attitude here but what a joke. Can anyone else see the hand writing here.

"Yes mam, all those bundles there are from sheep where no predator control was utilized but this bundle here was from sheep where we had no option but to kill the coyotes. What was that price again". LMAO!

Robert Crabtree's research in Yellowstone Park, although fascinating, is misleading. Yellowstone Park is an unexploited coyote population unlike most areas in the United States. Robert used his Yellowstone theories to come to false conclusions in the real world. Our own Steve Allen could bury Robert Crabtree in his degree of coyote knowledge on any given day and he has done so but never intentionally. Robert Crabtree is widely quoted because he says what "feel good" people want to hear. He doesn't know near as much about coyotes in unexploited populations as he thinks.

Robert Crabtree is the one that started this, "if you have a good coyote in the area, leave him alone or bad ones will move in and start killing."

Coyotes are opportunistic killers and will take what is most readily available. Territorial adults are the one's most prone to killing livestock not young immigrants unfamiliar with the area. Robert hasn't got a clue! The longer a coyote lives in an area, the more he builds up the courage and familiarity of the area to do the things he shouldn't do. Like killing calves and sheep.

Yes there are times when a pair of coyotes will live near sheep and not be bothering them. If those coyotes are removed, yes, other coyotes may move in that area and start killing. This is the RARE EXCEPTION, certainly not the rule. To build an ADC program based on the exception is pure foolishness. It's another "feel good" scenerio for ADC critics to hang their hat on though.

Many times I have asked these concrete and asphalt biologists to come out here and show me a better way. To pay for the livestock losses during their learning process. Guess what, no takers! None, notta, zero! Just more sideline critics.

This is a hot topic for me as I have been subjected to more than my fair share of criticism but I still have no takers to show me a better way to protect livestock than to kill the coyotes.

Thank God most of you guys don't buy into this ignorance. It's like taking a $50 bill out of someone's wallet everyday and telling them they are too stupid to prevent it from happening. Elitist attitudes at their finest. Sorry guys, I hope you understand, this topic sets me off but it is also important to discuss!

"Predator friendly wool" give me a break!

Alas, all is not lost! As long as professional and accountable ADC men are removing the problem animals as opposed to wholesale yearround slaughter, that leaves more for the recreational hunters like you guys. A concept that I totally embrace. Go get em' boys! What a country! GOTTA LOVE IT! Wiley E

[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 06-07-2001).]
 
Hey Wiley E.,

Great post!

Calypso

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“No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms, is as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”
Thomas Jefferson, June 1776
 
OK thats it, put your money up, I'm gonna get me 4 hungry coyotes and one llama, put em in a big fild and see who wins the fight, who will you put your money on???? True I'm older and for sure and not real smart, but I am wiser with age and I'll bet yeah I wont lose this bet. Hummm who am I gonna get 4 hungry coyotes and a llama????? hehehehe.
 
Two years ago I wrote a post on the Shade Tree (Leonard remembers this one) about a local goat raiser that had 100 nannies, all with kids, inside a 40 acre compound surrounded with a 5 ft. woven wire fence protected by a Great Pyrenees named Goliath, a llama and a donkey and was still losing 3 kids a week to a single female coyote. None of the guards and precautions were doing the job. It took a predator unfriendly bullet to settle the matter. The farmer, Jake, did tell Bill Lynn and me a pretty good story about his neighbor though. The guy bought a young male llama and raised it as a pet. Jake said the thing followed the guy everywhere around the farm, stuck to him like a shadow. Every afternoon he would make two manhattens and sit out on the back patio, drink one and the llama would lie down by his side an drink the other. Jake said the guy dearly loved the llama. The man put up a fence around his pasture and the llama followed him every step getting in the way and even leaning on him to the point it was impossible to get anything done. One morning the guy took a short 2 battery electric prod with him and when the llama leaned on him he zapped it. The llama smashed the guy to the ground and stomped the hell out of him. The guy told Jake he was able to climb a tree or he doesn't doubt the llama would have killed him. Now he keeps it in a corral and the beast tries to attack him on sight.
 
Predator friendly? What will the coyotes eat when they cannot eat lambs? Is there
some kind of animal that will protect the
field mice, rabbits, quail, farm geese, miniature dacshunds? I think they are cuter than coyotes.

Ouch!
Clyde
 
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