Ralph Lermayer's "It Is What It Is!" article in Predator Xtreme......

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I just don't want hunters paying landowners and therefore ruining it for everyone else down the road. It's a very simple concept.

Rusty



If only it were that simple, Rusty. For reasons already stated by myself and others earlier in this thread, paying a land owner is the most cost effective and least time consuming method of acquiring land to hunt for those of us who don't have the good fortune to live in Texas. Surely you can understand that.

And I can understand how it's got to be a pretty sweet deal to have ranchers letting you make money off of there land by allowing you to take clients out hunting on it. Granted, you provide a service to them, but let's be honest, ranchers who are truly having predator problems don't depend on guys who guide on there land to take care of those problems. They or their ranch hands or professional trappers do the real predator control work. You'd be hard pressed to find a coyote on the ranch I hunt. The rancher just does not let them get established. He's got a lot of foxes and bobcats, but they don't really put a dent in his cattle herd or his deer population so he doesn't waste much time going after them.

I think this idea that the sport is going to be ruined or become something that only rich people can do as a result of people paying landowners for access is a little overblown. Let's say you're right, though. Do you think that maybe guides who advertise on the internet, and people who make videos about predator hunting might not have had a little something to do with how it got to the point where people are willing to pay landowners for access?

As for me, I don't share your bleak outlook. I'm all for guides making money off of predator hunting. I'm all for guys making videos and making a pile of money off of them. And I'm all for ranch owners making some dough too. I think all of these things are good for the sport and they put food on the table for those individuals to boot.

I'll leave you with a little something to chew on from the movie Unforgiven. There's a great scene in the movie where the Scofield Kid, after having just shot someone for the first time says to Clint Eastwood's character, "Well, he had it coming, didn't he?" To which Clint replies, "We all got it coming, kid." Translation: Go ahead think that guys who pay for access are ruining the sport if you want. But you're fooling yourself if you think you and people you are associated with haven't played a part in how the sport got to where it is today also.
 
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Rusty,

Being the Yankee that I am, I'll bet you ten bucks that I can kill as many predators in a night as you can in Texas. All I have to do is ride in your chair and take every other stand. I'm guessing we'll have pretty good odds against each other. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I sure wish I had something to offer to this discussion. It doesn't seem right that there's a hot discussion and I'm not in the middle of it.

*This post approved by R. Buker*
 
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Buker....you can come down here and hunt for free and we'll see who kills the most. (I'm betting you will, but I'll never admit it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif)

Good night,

Rusty



One day.... You know I'll be back...

Probably because of that .17 rem? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Randy
 
Now there you go again, Rusty. I've explained it to you before, but you seem to have difficulty understanding. My paying a landowner for access has little to do with an unwillingness to do leg work and a lot to do with making smart use of my time. I need a place to stay when I go to Texas and I can stay on the ranch I'm hunting and hunt predators for pretty much what it would cost me to stay in a motel anyway. Last year my son and I hunted four days and nights for 625 dollars and had access to 33,000 acres and a place to stay on the land we hunted. We spent five night on the ranch, but didn't hunt the first night. (By the way, is 33,000 acres a ranchette? And how can you possibly know anything about the quality of the land I hunt?) The closest motel is about 45 minutes away. Sorry, not driving 45 minutes both ways and paying for a motel to access land I can sleep on for about the same price. Is that that difficult to understand?



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Don't try to decrease your liability while trying to put more on me because there is a difference. It's common sense. The bottom line is that you'd rather pay cash vs. doing some homework and contacting a landowner and simply asking them. You even said yourself that you thought your chances wouldn't be that good at trying to gain access by simply talking to a rancher and asking for permission. How do you know if you've never tried? Sorry....sounds like a lazy cop-out to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Rusty



I'm not trying to decrease my liability. As for as I am concerned I have no liability. What I do in coming to Texas to hunt for a week or so every year is nothing but a good thing all the way around. It's good for me and my sons, good for the rancher, and good for the local economy. Somehow I have a feeling that guys who really want to predator hunt will find a way to do so. Just like guys who really want to deer hunt can still find a way to do so if they work at it some.
 
Hey Rusty, I was born at night, but not last night. I find it hard to believe that ranchers routinely give out of state strangers not only access to land but also ranch houses to stay in for free. Sounds kind of farfetched to me, but then again I’m not from Texas. If I’m wrong, I’m sure some of these out of staters you’ve referred to will chime in here and back you up. Maybe they’ll even provide me a link to some previous posts they’ve made on this forum about trips to the ranch they hunt for free that comes with a ranch house to stay in to boot. I’d be real surprised if any of those type situations involve a transaction between a rancher and a stranger from out of state.

Nothing personal here either. I don’t believe predator hunting is going to go the way deer hunting has, but if it does, it will be for lots of different reasons. And nobody will be blameless. Even guys who claim to have the purest of motives will have a hand in it. And some might argue that predator hunting has already become a rich man’s game. You need look no further than this forum to find more than a few guys with very expensive rifle/scope combinations, 500 dollar e-callers, and 25,000 dollar pickups with high racks that they cruise the land on in search of predators. I don’t have a problem with any of that. I like to see money being made and spent in pursuit of the sport. I think that ensures that the sport will survive. If you are so concerned about the direction the game is moving though, I suggest you disassociate yourself from anything that plays a part in moving it in that direction. And don’t be so quick to label people as lazy or naïve simply because they don’t see things your way.
 
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I'm not doing any hand-holding and people likely aren't going to jump on here and tell you exactly where to go. You have to build relationships with the landowers and that can take time


Rusty



I never said anything about people people telling me anything about exactly where to go. I just suggested that if gaining access for out of staters was as easy you suggest, there would be more people who would chime in in support of your position. You said it yourself, "You have to build relationships with the landowers and that can take time." Out of staters generally don't have that kind of time.

Considering that most ranch houses are behind locked gates, how is that an out of stater is going to even contact the rancher. I know I could hang out at the feed store or the local chew and chat and hope that some kindly rancher comes along, but I'm not so sure how wise it would be to drive seven hundred miles on the hope that something pans out in the 4 or 5 days that I have to hunt. I would really appreciate it if someone who is from out of state and experienced in gaining access could simply relate a plausible scenario in which a guy from out of state with about 4 or 5 days to hunt can drive to Texas and have reasonably good chance of securing land to hunt within that time frame. Anyone?
 
Rusty I do hear what your saying and under stand it, but your not understanding that we the out of state guys have great hurdles on gaining access to property to hunt in Texas.
the part of the state I hunt is very much a pay to play area . I hunt some very large and famous ranches that are owned by very big family in south Texas , I always thought I got a good deal hunting this type of place for the moneys I spent . I am a regular guy that got up 430 every morning and put my hand to work till the sun went down , predator hunts are what I could afford to do . no big elk hunt no big deer hunts I only hunt with friends around the country or places like I hunt in Texas places I can afford .
I worked hard and hunt hard I don't wont the help of anyone just the opportunity to hunt . I am sorry that your state is so into the making of money of game and hunters . if I could I wouldn't pay I dime pal not one red cent would I take from my family if I could do it for free. there are thing that come before hunting and my people and friend will always come first .. so I don't have the time to gain access to land that's 2000 miles away and I cant afford to spend days away from work when it much cheaper for me to just pay for access
I have many million of free hunting Acers here in my state that I can hunt predators 24/7 but if you hunted here for predators you would understand what a trip to predator calling friendly south Texas mean to a every day caller from PA. Again and fro the last time I am sorry that thing are getting harder and harder down there for you guy do to the fact that guys like have to pay Texas ranchers to hunt there land but if you have a solution I am all ears. I find this all a little funny coming from a guy that lives in the land of pay to play and the land of the hunting lease ..... Texas is and always will be the place for the rich to hunt and the everyday
hunter to watch from the side lines . look at the deer contest held in the area I predator hunt down there they are only won by the guys with the biggest bank accounts not by the best hunter.a 160 class deer there isnt 1/2 the trouphy a 90''white tail s here. you could bye enough land to hunt up here for what 1 years deer lease would cost in the Webb co. and the surrounding county's down that way , I almost would say that the hunter dollars go a long way in supporting some community down there.
with all that said i feel where your coming from but I cant do without with my 2 ,3 weeks a year down there and if I have to pay little something don't blame me blame the guys making me pay and no it ant guys like me that turning every thing bad its the hole Texan pay to play thing that's been going on for years down there.

no need to reply I am done with all this . maybe when I am in west Texas next year we will run into each other and see we are much the same, you may be smarter and more comprehendible and not so fast to rely before thinking but I bet we would get along just fine.

so as you say, god bless
Big George
 
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Fitz..I fully support what Rusty and Joel have been saying.

Texas ranchers are some of the most down-to-earth and friendly people I have ever met. Also very observant. They can smell city on a person from a mile away. LOL. They notice the dirt under your finger nails, calluses on your hands, and the way you talk. In other words, just a short face to face meeting tells them a lot about a fellow. Especilly about your honesty.

You also must do what you say you are going to do. Meaning..produce dead animals. The next time you see them, saying you called up 10 coyotes and just killed one aint going to cut-it. We usually make a point to show them the next morning if at all possible.

The ranchers appreciate what you are doing and in turn you need to show your appreciation as well. Some want to go with us hunting and we gladly let him sit in the chair all night if he wants to.Any of the ranchers friends are welcome as well.We retrieve their animals and let them shoot our rifles. We have barbecues for all the surrounding ranches. We feed hay, water horses, corall lost goats, and report any water leaks or broken oil pipes. We really enjoy doing this and the ranchers realize that.

After a while, the word gets out. More gates are opened and more vacant houses are made available. Like I said, you need to be honest and produce results. Being from the farm and not being afraid to get your hands dirty helps too.

Randy
 
Rusty,

What sounds assinnine is guy who is so attached to his narrow point of view that he would make up a long and ridiculous story about people paying money to swim in alligator infested bayous and think he had scored some kind big point. That was a doozy, bud.

R. Shaw,

I'm glad you agree with Rusty, but as of yet no one has related a plausible scenario in which a guy from out of state with about 4 or 5 days to hunt can drive to Texas and have a reasonably good chance of securing land to hunt within that time frame. And no one has pm'ed me.

If you care about the sport as much as you say you do Rusty, why don't you pm yourself with some strategies for gaining land---that way I won't go ruining it for everyone else.
 
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I would really appreciate it if someone who is from out of state and experienced in gaining access could simply relate a plausible scenario in which a guy from out of state with about 4 or 5 days to hunt can drive to Texas and have reasonably good chance of securing land to hunt within that time frame. Anyone?




...and I told myself I was not going to get in this debate! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

I put together a calling school and guiding service with expectations that my house would sell a long time ago and it has not. I'm still an 'out of stater' yet hosted hunts in Texas and New Mexico this season, in which I put together a large amount of calling land together without spending a dime...except for gas and shoe leather.

Fitz is correct that contacting ranchers is extremely challenging in Texas. Locked gates and land owners that live in the big city make the old fashion knocking on doors a major challenge. But as Rusty says...it can be done. Here is my scenario:

My main focus is coyotes, but for the limited bobcat land that I needed, I targetted an area on the map in Texas that should have good cat populations, based on terrain. I chose a town that should be far enough away from other outfitters, out of respect.

I spent 2 days knocking on doors and asking for access. I found the smaller ranchers (3-10 sections) were much easier to get access to than the bigger ones. The larger ones (100+ sections) already had their hunting rights leased, promised to other callers for calling contests, was already paying someone for predator control, has their land flown each year and doesn't want the liability of someone on there land, etc... So, I focussed on the smaller ranches.

Driving up with 'out of state' license plates definately yields some looks, but nothing that can't be overcome with open honesty and a good personality. I let each landowner know exactly what I was doing, that I'd be guiding and filming and would be in the area only for 2-3 days and asked if they'd like their varmints thinned out. In addition, I asked if anyone else was already calling on their land. One would be suprised at the amount of land that hasn't even had any ask permission for calling in 10 ore more years.

Once given access, I asked if they had any neighbors or friends that might also like their varmints controlled for the weekend. The networking is absolutely key to picking up multiple ranches. I was able to put together 6 ranches that pretty much all connected each other as neighbors. Each drove me around his ranch to show boundaries and such and was quite happy to have this free service. I spent an average of an hour or so with each rancher, so they got to know me. Most asked (pretty much required) that any and all hogs to be shot on sight. I told them it would be our pleasure.

One rancher asked that if we shot a bobcat off of his land, if he could have it, as his wife wanted a rug. We killed 4 of them on the first night and I gave him 2. He was very pleased and asked for me to come back anytime I wanted. A solid friendship was established. I've called once more on his ranch with the "Absolutely, Go get 'em" response when I called him.

That's my out of stater' Texas scenario. Was it easy...not necessarily. Was it worth it...absolutely. It took a couple of days time, but it can be done.

My New Mexico scenario is quite different, as I stayed in the same small town for 2 solid months. I spent every free day knocking on doors and networking. I was able to, not only put together 20 or so ranches that average 75 sections each, but also received multiple phone calls from other ranchers that had heard about our success and asked if we could come and call their calf killers. We subsquently, will be moving to that area.

A totally different scenario....I have access to 5 big ranches in Nebraska. I actually haven't hunted them in 3-4 years due to the increase of mange, every time we went there. Access was all free and very welcomed. One rancher had a small schoolhouse, now converted to a cabin, that we would rent for $75 for the entire week. At that rate, anyone would be silly not to utilize it, especially when the nearest motel was an hour away. I didn't feel that we were paying for access to hunt coyotes, but rather rented the cabin to sleep.

My brother, our friend Joey, and I have free access to over 6 million acres of private land in Idaho and Nevada for calling coyotes. We camp out for 10 days almost every year. Each trip involves knocking on more and more ranch doors, asking for permission. The only thing we've ever paid for was the occassional $7 shower at the closest Indian reservation. After 5 or 6 days of calling and camping...it's well worth it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have no dog in this long drawn out fight, but access can be put together for free, even if you are an 'out of stater'...no matter what the target state is.

Tony
 
If more Texas hunters were like George, there wouldn't be an issue of having to pay. George took a week of his time, fed me, housed me and called his heart out for turkeys just so I could have the best hunt of my life. He even supplied the guns, ammo, warm clothes and everything else I needed. I didn't have to go knocking on doors because people from here were generous beyond belief. Wouldn't it be nice if a predator hunter from Texas took a Yankee out on his properties out of the kindness of his heart? Lifetime friendships are made, the out of staters don't cause a ruckus with the locals and all live happily ever after. By the way. George is the Real Deal! He is a real hunter through and through.
 
Tony,

Thanks for the response. My position has never been that it can't be done. I'm sure it can if you have the time to devote to it. You're trying to establish a business and so you took 2 full days to knock on doors and you got your access. I don't have two days to spend knocking on doors. I'm on vacation and want to get in all the hunting I can, so my priorities are different.

All the issues about access aside, my bottom line is it's kind of disengenuous for someone to get all outraged about something and declare that certain people are going to ruin the sport by paying for access, when that same someone played a part in getting the ball rolling in that direction. Rusty, believes the ball will start rolling faster with people paying for access. I'm not so sure. I've never been good at predicting the future. But I do know that when things change, they usually do so for many reasons.
 
fitz...my suggestion is that on your next vacation, forget about hunting and use that time to develop some landowner relationships. Make some friends and enjoy things that Texas has to offer besides hunting.

Randy
 
Nobody said you mentioned alligators, Rusty. It's just kind of ridiculous that you would spend all this time dreaming up this analogy that is ridiculous on it's face. But I guess that escaped you. Everybody knows that most of the bayous in South Lousiaina are full of gators so nobody with any common sense spends a lot of time swimming in them.

So far, two people have posted about how to gain access. I appreciate the time they took to post, but neither of them has addressed the specific question that I have asked about relating a plausible scenario in which a guy who's on vacation time, from out of state, with about 4 or 5 days to hunt can drive to Texas and have a reasonably good chance of securing land to hunt within that time frame. And no one has pm'ed me. I'm not driving seven hundred miles on the chance that I might get to hunt.

Go ahead and think guys like me are ruining the sport if you want. I guess some people just need to have a villain and present themselves as the guy in the white hat.
 
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