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#1231761 - 02/26/09 11:23 AM .223 Dies
salvo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/07/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Vegas & S. Utah
I am going to pick up a die set for my Bushmaster AR.
Are small base dies a must have with semi autos?
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#1231762 - 02/26/09 11:26 AM Re: .223 Dies [Re: salvo]
2muchgun Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 14660
Loc: Michigun
A lot of guys use them, but I wouldn't call them a must have. I recently loaded up a bunch with standard dies and they work in the 2 AR's just fine.

There are others around who are more AR experienced than I that will help you with this....
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#1231763 - 02/26/09 02:42 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: 2muchgun]
odawgp Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 893
Loc: Utah
Quote:

A lot of guys use them, but I wouldn't call them a must have. I recently loaded up a bunch with standard dies and they work in the 2 AR's just fine.




Same here, keep track of the brass and where it comes from.

If it is shot in a 5.56 NATO chamber it "might" not fit in your .223 SAAMI chambered AR until you re-size it with a small base die.

** In 1979, SAAMI cautioned shooters that the 5.56x45mm military chambers and throats differ from the 223 Remington sporting rifle chambers. Therefore military ball ammo may produce high chamber pressures in sporting rifles.
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#1231764 - 02/26/09 03:10 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: odawgp]
OldTurtle Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 19624
Loc: East Central FL
I have both Lee and Forster FL dies that I use for my .223 and .204 ARs and have never felt the need to go to a 'small base' die... I think it's a matter of having your dies properly adjusted to start with..
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#1231765 - 02/26/09 03:31 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: OldTurtle]
Orneryolfart357 Offline
PM senior

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 9053
Loc: Nevada
Since the Mini 14 is a 5.56, maybe thats why some FL resized dont fit? My Mini will eat up new cases, but on reloads sized FL some wont chamber properly. Interesting thread. Hope to learn more.
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#1231766 - 02/26/09 04:03 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: Orneryolfart357]
odawgp Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 893
Loc: Utah
Quote:

Since the Mini 14 is a 5.56, maybe thats why some FL resized dont fit? My Mini will eat up new cases, but on reloads sized FL some wont chamber properly. Interesting thread. Hope to learn more.




The SAAMI 223 DIE will not resize the entire case

If you have the chance inspect one of your or someone elses resized cases and you will see that the die will leave a ring about 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch up from the rim that is were it stops resizing the case

Small base dies resize that last 1/4" - 3/8"

Rock river offers an AR w/ 223 Wylde chamber this is supposed to fix the cross compatibility problems between the the 5.56 nato chambers

FROM RRA SITE The .223 Wylde chamber was designed as a match chambering for semi-automatic rifles. It will accommodate both .223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO ammunition. It is relieved in the case body to aid in extraction and features a shorter throat for improved accuracy.


Edited by odawgp (02/26/09 04:08 PM)

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#1231767 - 02/26/09 04:17 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: odawgp]
CatShooter Offline
PM senior

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 9094
Loc: The Socialist Republic of CT.
Quote:

"... The SAAMI 223 DIE will not resize the entire case.




The SAAMI 223 die DOES resize the entire case.

Quote:

If you have the chance inspect one of your or someone elses resized cases and you will see that the die will leave a ring about 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch up from the rim that is were it stops resizing the case

Small base dies resize that last 1/4" - 3/8"




Small base dies do not resize this part of the case - the bottom 1/3" (the web) of the case is solid brass with a primer hole and does not get resized by any die.

The standard FL die will bring the lower body to within 4 to 6 thou of the bottom "web".

The Small base die will bring it to within 1 or 2 thou of the web... it will not change the size of the web.

.
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#1231768 - 02/26/09 05:03 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: salvo]
Evil_Lurker Offline
PM senior

Registered: 07/30/05
Posts: 6721
Loc: Oregon
It depends.
I've got 4 .223 semi-autos, and I want the ammo to interchange and feed reliably, so I only use SB dies.
If I had 1 .223 I was reloading for, I could get away with standard FL dies, properly adjusted.
Here is RCBS answer:

Quote:

The Small Base Die set is intended for use for ammunition to be used in auto, semi-auto, and lever action rifles so that the loaded round chambers and extracts easily. The Small Base Sizer Die sizes the case from the shoulder to the head of the case a couple of thousandths smaller than a Full Length Sizer Die. In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die.


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#1231769 - 02/26/09 06:18 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: odawgp]
Jack Roberts Offline
Former Admin/moderator - deceased

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 15854
Loc: Elko, NV formerly MD
"features a shorter throat for improved accuracy."

Baloney! Makes you wonder what else is false on their website?

Jack
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#1231770 - 02/26/09 08:16 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: Jack Roberts]
CatShooter Offline
PM senior

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 9094
Loc: The Socialist Republic of CT.
Quote:

"features a shorter throat for improved accuracy."

Baloney! Makes you wonder what else is false on their website?

Jack




Baloney!



Yeah - lemme see. It has a longer throat to take 5.56mm, but it has a shorter throat to make it more accurate.

OK, I get it now.

Jack - you called that one!!

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Here kitty, kitty, kitty...

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#1231771 - 02/26/09 08:59 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: CatShooter]
2muchgun Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 14660
Loc: Michigun



Yeah - lemme see. It has a longer throat to take 5.56mm, but it has a shorter throat to make it more accurate.





Wondering myself about that comment. Can't be both. I thought Wylde chambers were long throated, not short.....
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#1231772 - 02/26/09 09:47 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: 2muchgun]
2muchgun Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 14660
Loc: Michigun
I'm thinking Wylde throat is longer than SAAMI and shorter than NATO.........
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Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.....

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#1231773 - 02/26/09 10:29 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: 2muchgun]
Jack Roberts Offline
Former Admin/moderator - deceased

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 15854
Loc: Elko, NV formerly MD
The Wylde throat is longer than either 223 or 5.56. It is extra long so you can seat 80gr bullets long and not loose case capacity. You do have to single load the rounds as they are too long to fit in a magazine which is no big deal as all long range competition must be single loaded.

Jack
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#1231774 - 02/26/09 10:39 PM Re: .223 Dies [Re: Jack Roberts]
kelbro Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 1145
Loc: AZ
I like the SB dies for my ARs and Redding bushing dies for my bolt-action 223s. The Redding FL bushing die sizes just fine for my Stag, DPMS, and CMMG barrels. I have always used the SB dies for them and never had a chambering issue so I just keep using them out of habit I guess
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#1231775 - 02/27/09 05:34 AM Re: .223 Dies [Re: kelbro]
muskrat30 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 3124
Loc: Wisconsin
I have SB & regular 223 dies. Most often I use the SB dies for reloading. Some reasons are, I have 6 223's, 4 of which are semi-auto. In the past I haven't been great about seperating ammo for each gun. I've read the statements by Sierra about SB dies in semi-autos & have to take that into account. I have a good supply of brass once-fired from a mini-14.

I recently got an AR custom upper with a 223 Wylde chamber. I just measured the COL with my handy Randy tool. With the bullet I measured I was at Max COL at 2.24. This was shorter than any of my other 223's/5.56 COLs I have measured with that bullet. I have the scope mounted & shortened up a few rounds just a bit for testing next week.

As usual YMMV.
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