Fox cartridge

SDH

SDH

New member
I know where a couple of red's are hanging out, but am reluctant to go after them with my coyote trasher. It's a 17 Rem that makes a tiny hole, but turns coyote and bobcat innards into soup. I'm just afraid I'll shred a fox with it. I'm thinking of just loading it down some.

I have a couple of other choices but thought I would seek a voice of the experienced fox slayer out there.
 
The 17 does well if you can keep the bullet in the fleshy areas, like a head on chest shot or just behind the shoulder. Head shots are'nt to bad either.. it would also help alot if you can keep the vel. down a little, like around 3600-3800 fps.
I never got around to useing the 20 gr. H.P. but think they would do well on the fox.
 
If you hit the fox in the "central mass" you should be alright. I have shot greys with a .22 cal 60gr V-Max @2800fps shot and had zero pelt damage but its all about the shot placment. Just stay on the bottom end of the velocity and hit in the mass and you should be just fine.
 
.17 Rem...good for yotes too.

Go to the bottom of this page: http://www.rmvh.com/17%20Predator%20-%20In%20The%20Field.htm and click on the video link. It's 17 yotes being shot with the .17 Predator which runs about the same speed as a .17 Rem

You'll get tiny little entrance holes with a .17 Rem and almost never an exit....but DRT.

In the DVD "Winter Magic", most of the K9's in the first hour are shot with a .17 Javelina which also runs about the same speed as a .17 Rem

The reason the .17 Rem is preferred over all other .17's is due to being a bit more available so you don't have to mess with cases. Loading them down is a good option though. Work up a load if you can. Berger's 25 gr Match bullets are a favorite of many. IMR 4320 and Varget seem to do good too. If you're not a reloader, there's some factory loads out there too. R Buker uses factory Remington Express 25 gr HP's with no complaints.
 
Here's a post i made elsewhere:

Seems that a lot of people think of the HMR as being the only .17 Caliber out there and it seems to get a lot of confusion going. .17 HMR's are not a good coyote round. Many have even claimed that they're not adequate for fox either. I DO NOT suggest using a .17 HMR for prdeator hunting no matter what you've heard.

Just to clarify a few things. First, the .17 HMR is not the only .17 cal out there. There's actually quite a few. Most .17 caliber predator hunters nowdays use the .17 Rem. Although the .17 Predator and .17 Javelina have quite a following too. If you haven't seen "Winter Magic" yet, buy it. Most of the dogs on that video are shot with a .17 Javelina and a few with a .19 Here's a few links:

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/which17.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/17wildcats.html

http://www.rmvh.com/The%2017%20Predator%20cartridge.htm

Look at the .17 Predator video here....30 dogs with a .17: http://www.rmvh.com/17%20Predator%20...he%20Field.htm

So...there's proof that some .17's are good coyote killing guns. If you can shoot a .17 caliber with a 25-30 gr. bullet pushing 3,500-4,000 fps....you can kill a lot of dogs. The good thing is, it puts a pin hole in them with no exit wound...97+% of the time. Too many people way overgun themselves then there's a few that under gun themselves for coyotes. Good thing is, you get the same results with the same rifles with cats and fox too. Hit a fox with a .22-250 and you'll walk up to a two pieces of a fox more times than not. Hit a fox with a .17 Rem and 97% of the time you'll walk up to a fox and have to search for any holes.

The .17 Rem seems to be the most popular .17 caliber for K9's. It's been around since 1971 and has had a great following. Factory loads can still be had, but most hand load them with 24.5 gr. of IMR 4320 and a 25 gr. Berger Match Target bullet. This seems to be the best combination. It enters the dog and turns the organs in the chest cavity to jello...with no exit hole. The .17 and .17 Predator are quite similar in velocity and downrange performance. They shoot the same bullets too, obviously. On top of reloading the Beger's, the Wood Chuck Den now offers .17 bullets called Golds. They are also offering a new boat tail bullet that'll likely buck the wind a ton better for really long range shooting a prarie dogs and chucks.

Here's some good reading on the .17 Rem:

http://www.sgrcustomrifles.com/perfe...tor-rifle.html

http://www.coyotegods.com/pagepart15.html

http://www.geocities.com/graymist44/...b.html#results

http://www.theamericanoutdoorsman.co...ting&Itemid=98

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/17rem.html

http://www.varminter.com/particles/wt17.html

http://www.woodchuckden.com/

Remember, we are hunting in MI and almost never shoot at a dog over 300 yards....harly ever shoot at a dog over 200 yards for that matter and if you can't get them within 150 yards, you should probably take up another hobby. We're not in the praries of the Dakotas, so we don't need to be shooting at a dog in the next section. That being said, you don't need a hide busting .22-250, .243, 6mm, etc. Those guns are meant for prarie dogs, deer and antelope...not 30 lb coyotes....way overkill.

Go do some research for yourself and you'll see that most .17 Caliber Centerfires kill dogs DRT with minimal hide damage. You're gonna need a few fur strtchers too, so go to the F&T link at the top of the page and get yourself a few wooden stretchers, push pins, combs and brushes....and start making a few bucks off the dogs you shoot. Don't bother picking up any thread and needles, you won't need it with a .17 centerfire.

Good Luck!

P.S. Just to let you know, a .17 HMR is about the size of a .22 mag, give or take...other than the bullet. The .17 Rem is similar in size to the .223. It was actually based off of the .222 which was a necked down .223 case. Therefore, it's safe to say that the .17 Rem is based off the .223 case, just necked down and shoulder reduced to a .17 caliber. This should give people a better perspective of the case differences. The .17 Rem has very little recoil, but packs a powerful punch.

Also, keep an eye on the .17 Remington Fireball (FB) in the future too and do some research on it. It was introduced by Remington in 2007. It may be a pretty good round, but not much has been said about it. I'm wondering if it'll even stick around that long. I have a good feeling that Remington will drop it and start making .17 Rem's again....which they stopped in 2007. CZ and a few other small manufactuers still make the .17 Rem. A lot of guys are rebarreling their guns to a .17 Rem now which costs about $175-$350...so there are options out there. Many guys have had the same gun for over 30 years, they just rebarrel them after about 4,000 rounds. SuperSeal on here could give more info about that and hopefully he'll post some pics. Oh, and some are even building a .17 Rem on a AR-15 platform too. A lot of guys out west are going this route.
 
Not by much though. He's getting 3,850-4,110 fps with the Predator.

With Remington Express ammo in .17 Rem, you'll get 4,040 fps. When loading them down, you'll get 3,500-4,000 with a .17 Rem
 
When loading down, how finiky are they for accuracy? I don't have any experience with the 17 Rems and just want to learn more.

Also, what about close-range shots on bobcats and such, and fur damage? Most of my shooting here in the mountains takes place under 50 yards.
 
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6mm06,

In your case, the .17 Rem would be perfect. There's usually no damage at that range on fox, coyote or cats. Just a pin hole entrance.

When loading, they can be a bit finicky. That said, it seems like most use about 24-25 gr. of powder. Some say 24.2, others say 24.5...... As for pressure issues, I'm not the one to ask. Never seen a problem myself, but others have. One guy on the Saubier forum claims he loaded one down too low some how....don't know the details.
 
Doogy: If you are going to compare one 17 to another you have to use the same bullet weights.
The Pred. is useing a 30 gr. bullet and the 17 rem is useing a 20 gr..A 17 rem useing a 30 gr. will produce about 3800-3850 in vel.


You can load a 17 rem down to around 3600 safely and still have good accuracy.
If you are going to target just fox and cats then the 17 F.B. or 17 Mach-4 is the ticket..
A 17 rem. also works well with a max. load on cats..
 
Thanks for all the info.

I reload, so that's not a problem. I can load it down a bit for fox with a different bullet.

I've been using the 30 gn Golds at between 3700 and 3750 and they are spooky. (It's a 1:7 twist and bullets seem to be barely holding together at that.) The last 2 coyotes I took with that I took with it, just had pinholes for entrance holes and no exit wounds at all.

I shot this bobcat a couple of weekends ago at about 60 yds and the internal damage was incredible. But the hide had one tiny hole in the front of the chest. Internally, there were no lungs or heart left. This was a large tom for around here, at least. The internal damage could be seen near the haunches, meaning fragments plowed through about 18" or so.

I was just concerned about the 30 gn being a bit much on a fox because of that. I do have some 25 gn Hornady HP's that hold together well that perhaps I can try. With the 1:7 twist, not just any ol' bullet holds together for me.

BigTom-sm.jpg


Thanks again.
 
.17 Predator:

Load Data

Rifle: Gre-Tan custom Remington 700
Cartridge: 17 Predator, .197" neck
Barrel: Lilja 26" stainless #5, 9-twist fluted
Cases: Reformed W-W 223, neck turned to .0115"
Primer: Rem 7 ½
All loads with Woodchuck Den 17 cal. 30 grain Gold bullet

N-540 24.5 gr 3850 fps (fire form load; accurate)

N-550 26.3 gr 3835 fps
N-550 26.7 gr 3915 fps
N-550 27.1 gr 4110 fps (good working load)

N-560 28.5 gr 3825 fps
N-560 29.0 gr 3975 fps
N-560 29.4 gr 4030 fps (case Full)
 
Quote:
.17 Predator:

Load Data

Rifle: Gre-Tan custom Remington 700
Cartridge: 17 Predator, .197" neck
Barrel: Lilja 26" stainless #5, 9-twist fluted
Cases: Reformed W-W 223, neck turned to .0115"
Primer: Rem 7 ½
All loads with Woodchuck Den 17 cal. 30 grain Gold bullet

N-540 24.5 gr 3850 fps (fire form load; accurate)

N-550 26.3 gr 3835 fps
N-550 26.7 gr 3915 fps
N-550 27.1 gr 4110 fps (good working load)

N-560 28.5 gr 3825 fps
N-560 29.0 gr 3975 fps
N-560 29.4 gr 4030 fps (case Full)



Dooger,

That is impressive. 4110 is screaming with that bullet. There's little excuse out to 500 yds+ though with that speed though. I don't know if I could handle the stress of that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
SDH,

I don't have all the answers here, but maybe TA could help....aren't the 30 gr. made more for a 1:10 twist or is it the 1:9? I wonder if your 1:7 has anything to do with the 18" of travel?

I've heard that the ratio can have a lot of effect on bullet performance on impact, but don't know much about it honestly.
 
Where did you hit that cat at anyways?

If you're gonna change bullets, go with the 25 gr. Match that Berger makes. Many shoot fox with that bullet with NO complaints. The Match bullets have a harder cup. On the Berger website, they're listed as Match Target, not Match Varmint.
 
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Quote:
The Remington Express ammo is using 25 grain HP's. You're thinking of the Premier Accutip.



Dooger: In one of youre posts you where compareing the 17 rem. with a 20 or 25 gr. bullet to the 17 Pred. with a 30 gr.as far as vel. goes.. If you shoot a 30 gr. from both cartridges the 17 rem will produce a vel of 3850 fps. and the 17 pred. with 30 gr. will give 4100 fps. Big difference...

For 30 gr. the 1-9" twist seems to be almost perfect. I have'nt tried it but you may have good results with a 25 gr. in the same twist..

I have a 1-6 twist barrel that was used for the 37 gr. bergers.. You can shoot the 30's in it just have to watch the vel... I tried some in mine and got around 3800 fps. without bullets blowing up..


Thats a nice looking cat in the pic..
 
Quote:
Where did you hit that cat at anyways?

If you're gonna change bullets, go with the 25 gr. Match that Berger makes. Many shoot fox with that bullet with NO complaints. The Match bullets have a harder cup. On the Berger website, they're listed as Match Target, not Match Varmint.



The cat was hit right from the front, right down the middle.

The only reason I was thinking of the Hornady 25 gn HP was because I have them and those bullets have shot well in my 1:7 twist barrel. Otherwise, I would definitely use the Berger bullets. I just don't know if I have the time to get them. I don't live anywhere near where Berger's are sold in a store.
 
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