Gun for 1000 Yard Prairie Dogs?

I've killed probably in excess of 20K pdogs in the past four years. I killed one at what I think was ~900 yards, but though I could clearly see the body in my scope from my shooting position, I couldn't (in three attempts) drive directly to the carcass to verify the range.

That said, my personal confirmed "best" is currently 794 yards, which happened a couple weeks ago. I was shooting my 6mm Rem with 75 grain VMaxes launched at 3670 fps (insert disclaimer here...don't try this at home). Though I have the opportunity often to try 1K, I'm gonna say right now, if I ever hit one at that range, it'll be almost entirely luck, and I don't think anyone could do it consistently, let alone "on demand". That final 200 yards of the 1K quest is where the gremlins live.

As to optics, much over 20X will prove pretty useless once the sun's up enough to heat the ground enough that the dogs are active. Just for kicks, a friend and I tried his competition 6BR with the 45X power-boosted Leupold. While I think the rig may have been capable of some good results, I wish one luck in getting a dog in that tiny FOV....at any distance. In over fifteen minutes of trying (each) neither one of us was able to get the crosshairs on a pdog (at any range) in time to get a shot off. You'll also find that the eye-relief on a 45X scope is so ridiculiously critical that any movement at all trying to get your target in the scope will black it out. 20-24 X is pretty much the most magnification one can use, even discounting the effects of mirage.

As to laser rangefinders, I'll certainly agree (again). On the flat featureless plains of eastern Colorado, you may as well leave it at home if your shots will be limited to more than ~325 yards. I was given the opportunity to independently real-world test several models during an active pdog shoot by one of the local big-box stores. The prices ranged from the mid $300 range to well over $1K, and included pretty much every brand you've ever heard of. The Bushnell Pinseeker (designed for golf) at ~$550 performed the best, and truth is, returns past 350 yards were uncommon even with that one.

The old-tech optical rangefinders rule the roost (or compete unchallenged, would be more like it)at long range out here. Or you could just work out a good comeups table and fire a few spotters.....that's pretty quick, though arguably not the most efficient use of ammo....

1K's tough....optics, ranging, and ballistics are all stacked against you.....badly.

Mike
 
instead of doing that try your current rifle with open sights at 500 you will have just as much of a hard time hitting them and the cost well you already have the gun
 
Dang Linefinder, 20 thousand?? No wonder I can't find any to shoot out there!

Joe, you would be better off using your current rig and just trying to up your percentage on shots in the 400-600 range. That in itself is pretty tough and you will learn a lot without spending any more money than what it takes to go on the next trip. Do some more studying of wind deflection and trajectory, and have a spotter for your shots (and use Catshooter's String of Death idea if you can). And if you can find one of those old Swiss military optical rangefinders, grab one - they can sometimes be found for only the price of a laser type, but they work on what you can see for as far as you can see it.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. I have been talking with Catshooter and plan on having the "Wild" optical rangefinder before my next trip out, knowing what range I was shooting at sure would have been nice. That would allow me to actually calculate wind and drop instead of guess, shoot, miss, reguess, shoot, miss.... The muzzle brakes helped infinately for this process. I am planning on buying another gun before the next trip; Im hoping it will increase my hit ratio over 500 yards, but I want it to also to have a decent chance of eventually hitting a 1000 yard dog if the opportunity presents itself.
 
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Dang Linefinder, 20 thousand?? No wonder I can't find any to shoot out there!




Yeah, but that's not as high a number as you'd think when put into perspective. The first 2 1/2 years I lived here, I averaged 3-4 days a week out on the towns, and I did that pretty much year round. Some of the best shooting you can get can happen on one of those "slightly warming" bluebird days just behind a blistering cold spell. Seems that all I did for quite a while was either sit behind a rifle or at a loading bench. I gained a lifetime of experience in a short amount of time.....

My favorite pdog town got sold to a doctor, who won't let anyone shoot it....since we all know gunfire spooks cattle. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

I found another nice town about 8 miles from that one that showed some real promise last antelope season, but by the time I got back out to shoot it, plague had wiped it out. It's a bummer when you spend over half a tank of gas (a 35 gallon tank, at that) and pretty much a full day to see 4 pdogs. I didn't fire a shot that day.....well, except my 9mm into a rattler. Which I missed 4/7 at about 8 feet. That hurt my feelings some, and I guess I need to go brush up at the pistol range... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've still got several towns left that I haven't hit this year, but truth is, as serious as I was about it for as long as I was, I just haven't had the fire in the belly as much this year. Sitting out on the plains a couple weeks ago, I caught myself looking toward the distant mountains thinking about elk and skiing season more often than normal.

Plus, though I never really paid much attention to gas cost at $2.75 a gallon, $4 a gallon gets my attention for some reason. Between ammo (handloads), gas, and even a very moderate amount of incidentals, the cost of even a mildly active day on the towns runs in excess of $150.

So, for you guys that live where you get the chance to go after pdogs only once or twice a year, you might want to count your blessings. Those of us who have the bug bad, and live in proximity to a decent supply of the rodents, drop $$ that'd probably make a cocaine addict shudder.

Back to the specifics....I wholeheartedly agree with the muzzlebrake thing. I own only one pdog rig without a muzzlebrake, and that's only because I didn't want to bother with a brake of the factory barrel. When I rebarrel (haven't decided on contour yet) it gets braked.

A brake won't increase your first shot success rate, but your second shot hit rate goes up substantially. Plus, I've found even with a mild .223 Rem, after 11-12 hours over the rifle, fatigue has set in to the point that even it's mild recoil will knock me out of the scope half the time. A muzzlebrake goes a long way toward reducing the effects of fatigue during long hot hours over a gun.

Mike
 
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Dang Linefinder, 20 thousand?? No wonder I can't find any to shoot out there!



HA!...

Don't think for a second that what I and a few others were saying means to imply that 1,000 yard dogs are easy.

The idea that you can drive up to a dog town, and toss your Rem 700 Varmint Special over the hood of the truck and say, "Hey Ferdy, watch me roll that pd that's out there a fur piece." ... is nonsense.

This type of shooting is more like micro-artillery - it is shooting ability, but it is also brain work and a lot of planing.

You need a rifle that shoots ~1/3" or better on a fairly regular basis (not just "one" best group). It should NOT be a magnum (unless it's a 222 Magnum /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ). We're talking about a good benchrest grade rifle, that probably weighs in the 12 to 15 pound range (or more).

You need a scope that will vary from around ~6x to 20-24x. As said by Claimbuster, you can use the 20/24x in the mornings and some evenings, but during the day, you will be down to 10 or 12x, unless it's heavy overcast or raining... (being out in the rain in the Prairie is a real bummer).

To get to 1,000 yds, you will need to use ALL of the available elevation smartly... the classical 6-20x40 Leupold (and the Nikon equivalent) have 42 to 45~ish moa of total elevation.
For the calibers that we are talking about - (6mmBR, or heavily loaded 223, and similar) - you will need 35 to 39 moa to get to 1,000 yds.

When mounting a scope in standard rings, you loose 1/2 of your elevation, so a scope that has 40 moa, will give you about ~20 moa of "up". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

So the scope needs to be mounted in Burris Signature ZEE rings, and using the plastic shells, set up the scope so the 100 zero is at the very bottom of the elevation adjustment... this gives you two advantages - first, you get the full elevation in the scope, and second, when set up this way, you have the turret set to "0" at the bottom of the calibrations... so if you need 35.5 moa, you dial 35.5 moa from the bottom, not from some point in the middle of the calibrations. If you are at 35.5 moa, and need to go to 28.25, you just dial 28.25, without having to go back to some midpoint and "count" your way back.

And you will need a bubble level!

The scope needs to have accurate clicks. Test them at 100 yds, not a 6" box test, but on a large piece of paper from top to bottom, and figure out what distance each moa really is... ideally, a 40" box test should be done, and the adjustments should be changed with each shot - that will tell you the good (or bad) news about the adjustments, and what they are - and if they are repeatable... and they need to be repeatable.

At the very least, take a long piece of paper (as long in inches as the scope's total elevation adjustment is in moa - plus 10"), and put a dot at the bottom.

Shoot one round at the dot, crank up the elevation to the top, like 40 moa of elevation, and shoot one round (still aiming at the bottom dot), then back down and shoot a round, and keep this up until you have two five shot groups - those two groups will tell you "What you have" in the scope department - what the actual spacing of the clicks are, and if the scope adjustments are repeatable... which translates to whether you can make hits at long range.

P.S... your scope maker will NOT love you for this test - it is a real scope killer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

For long shots like this, you will need to shoot in the early morning, so you should scout out the town beforehand, and decide where to set up. It has been my experience that in the spring and summer, the winds mostly come from the north east - (Canadian air surplus /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

So when you are scouting towns, make notes of the prevailing winds so you can pick the side of the town you will be setting up on.

You will need a good optical rangefinder - so buy, beg or borrow, a Wild, or a Barr & Stroud. The Wild is in meters (and the best there is), the B&S is in yards, but not as good a rangefinder.

There are some Swedish mortar crew optical rangefinders floating around that are outstanding - with optics that are as good as the Wild - and range to ~1,600 meters, but they are very hard to find.
"Cheaper than dirt" sold a few hundred of them about three years ago, and I have never seen one for sale since.

With the rangefinder, you will need a good ballistic chart made for your bullet and velocity.

For those that think that Ballistic data is useless, useless, read these threads...
... Flybuster had a 2" error at 975 yards when dialed up from 100yds using a good chart made for him.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...age=11#52871117

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=2792011

When you have set up all of your kit, and sun isn't up yet, pick a group of mounds that are at the range that you want. Fire a few shots and watch where the hits fall, and make any final elevation adjustments...

... and sit back with your friends and some coffee and wait for the enemy to surface.

Those that say it can't be done, have either never tried it, or tried it with poor kit and poor preparation.

It is not easy, but it IS doable, and one hellova challenge to the shooter that is interested in long range shooting.

It's also very addicting.


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Agree with above... great advice.

While rifles that are consistently "minute of prarie dog" at 1000 yards are arguably non-existent, you can definitely hone in on them real, real close with the right equipment.

Equipment and skill will reduce the amount of luck you need to hit a PD at 1K by a LOT...

...but even then, there must be some small factor of luck (good luck on your part or bad luck on the dog's part) involved for a bullet to connect on a target about 1/5 MOA wide at 1000 yards.

Dan
 
We don't have P-Dawgs in our area, but. Our Rockchuck populations have been decemated in alot of good area's here in Eastern Oregon. People don't know when to stop pulling the trigger. They shoot till they don't see anymore.

I Make 1 or 2 trips a year, to area's that everyone hasn't found. If I see 10 rockchucks, I might take 1 or 2 out of that spot. To limit our success we shoot them at mid to long range. That way we get lots of shooting, and don't over harvest an area.

With my 6 Dasher hitting a 4" clay pigeon at 1000 yards is no big deal. I took a guy I work with last Monday shooting with me. Shooting 105 A-Max Fireforming loads he hit 4-5 clays with about 10 shots. And it was windy, he fired as quickly as he could and I was pretty impressed.

I know clay pigeons are one thing, but varmints move around. Once you get that sighter, by the time he pops back up the wind has changed. I guess that's the challenge of it, and its not for everyone.

Here's a webpage of a good shooter from our side of the states. He makes a yearly P-dog trip and is striving for a 1500 VHA shot. http://www.the-long-family.com/2007_TRO_hunting_trip.htm
 
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One question, how the heck do you even see a prarie dog at 1000 yards? Big AZZ scope and maybe a loooonggg barrel



Here's a 975 yard view through my Leupold VX-III 8.5-25x50. You just have to squint /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
scopepic975.jpg




But that ain't no prarie dog.... I repete how do you even see a critter that is less than two feet tall at a thousand yards? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
It really isn't as tough as you'd think, at least on the eastern plains here in Colorado. It's flat as a pancake for the most part, and the grass (if you care to call it that)is sparse and during the "good" season, never more than an inch tall. Anything taller either grows in clumps (meaning a lot of open area even with the vegetation)or so thin you can see and shoot right through it.

On a clear day, an upright pdog at 1K is easy enough to see at 20X. I was shooting at some around 1200 a couple weeks ago with my .223 Rem just for the heck of it. I didn't land a bullet within 10 feet of any of them, but I had no trouble at all seeing them.

Mike
 
Look at the legs holding the target frame up. They are 3-3/8" x 30" long. I don't know how exactly tall a prarie dog is, but I just put that up there to give you an idea how small things look out there.

I have no problem seeing rockchucks past 1000 yards even in the heat of day, when mirage occurs most prominetly. I don't know if the prarie mirage is any different than the mirage we get, over our rim rock country.
 
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One question, how the heck do you even see a prarie dog at 1000 yards? Big AZZ scope and maybe a loooonggg barrel...

... But that ain't no prarie dog.... I repeat, how do you even see a critter that is less than two feet tall at a thousand yards? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif



An adult PD is about 10" tall and 4" to 5" wide.

A 20x scope will visually bring that PD to 50 yds away (1/20 of 1000yds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

If you had a PD standing 50 yds in front of you... you could easily hit it with a 1x scope... probably with iron sights too.

Or put another way, a 20x scope will make that PD look 17 feet tall and 9 feet wide at 1,000 yds - easy to see.


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Glad you could put that into words "most" will understand because I was just gonna say it aint that difficult to see a dog at 1000 yards with a good quality 20x scope. Some just dont know or wont believe it untill they have looked for themselves...
 
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To be even moderately successful(not one lucky shot out of 50) will require a lot of money and even more dedication.


As one who finally made the 1000 yard club, I can confirm the dedication and money aspect. To put this in perspective, I shot a p-dog at 986 yards last summer with a 7mm Remington Magnum pushing 168 grain Berger VLD's as hot as I dare to go. I saw the hit in my scope. The time of flight is enough to torch the round off, recover from the recoil, and watch the happenings.

I am ditching my long range varmint set ups in favor of something that makes more sense. If you want to buy a reasonably priced base rifle to build from (short action Remington) that already has a 20 MOA base, 30mm rings, and a 5.5-22 Nightforce scope, send me a PM.
 
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