me or the scope

yoopereh

yoopereh

New member
Hello all, I am fairly new to pm. I recently bought an ar from dtech. The scope on it is a bushnell banner 3 - 9 x 40. I can pattern under an inch easily at 100 yards. At 200 yards my pattern is around 2 to 6 inches. Is it me, Is it the scope? Should I spend 300$ on a new scope and find out that I just should never shoot past 100. I have been shooting black hills 55 gr. fmj. Should I just keep shooting with the bushnell scope, and practice for a month or two before making that decision. Please help me. I do know I am not a great shot.
 
Personally, I couldn't do very well at 200 yds with a 9x scope, so 2-6" groups with factory ammo at that distance wouldn't exactly shock me, and I'm not a terrible shot either. My vision limitations just require a bit more magnification if I'm looking at a 1" orange dot that far downrange. I'm at that age (42) where my vision is actively changing and it's a drag.

I wouldn't jump right on a new scope yet if I was young with sharp eyes. It could be many other variables at play. My first inclination would be to let a reputable gunsmith give the whole package the once over first then evaluate things from there; try different ammo (consider twist rate and bullet mass), give the barrel time to settle in, etc.

Don't panic yet, my friend. Just experiment a little first. I once had a new rifle that wouldn't shoot well at all just because I was overcleaning it. It could be something very simple.
 
yoopereh,
After you have your rifle checked out and make sure the scope mount is secure to the rifle and the rings and scope are tight, too, if the rifle does not perform at 200 yards or a greater distance, it could be the scope parallax setting is off. Also, your technique of sighting your rifle through the scope may be inconsistant. There are several articles you could read that will instruct you on proper consistant technique in viewing through the telescope sight.

Even with a 4 power scope and with a good aiming point, you should be able to shoot around double the size of the 100 yard average group.

Tiny groups show consistancy of ammo, rifle and technique.

Best of luck to you.

Cheers,

Karl in Phoenix
 
I'd say a reputable gunsmith has already went through it if it came from Dtech. Did you do any kind of break in of the barrel? I'd use a really good copper solvent followed by some bore paste. I have a 3x9 Burris FF2 on mine and it does fine for me. They are in the $200 range. What kind of rest are you using to shoot groups? How was the wind when you shot? How is the trigger? There are lots of little things that can cause the group sizes you're getting, including the shooter or scope. What kind of mounts are you using? Can you borrow a better scope off a different gun or a buddy? Sounds like a minor roblem that needs a bit of tweaking. Try working on one thing at a time so you know what the problem was once you've fixed it. It could just be choice of ammo. Black Hills is pretty good but the FMJ is more of a plinking round. I'd buy some varmit rounds if you don't reload.

peace.
unloaded
 
There was a great article in feild and stream last month, according to them moving youre muzzle just a 1/16 of an inch horizonaly will move youre point of impact 5.29" at 100 yards 10.29" at 200 yards all the way to 21.18" at 400 yards. Pretty eye opening to me, nothing beats good form and practice. Work on that first before you start changing eq.

Good luck, Stan
 
yeah, 1 MOA at the end of the muzzle is .0069", so only 7 thousands of an inch of wobble will move bullets POI over 1" at 100 yards.
what trigger are you using? unless its a match trigger of some sort that could easily account for those groups.
My suggestion is have another reputable shooter run a few rounds through it and see if anything is different. also try changing ammo, maybe it doesn't like those bullets.
I have one of mike's rifles and I'll bet its not the rifles fault.
RR
 
I dont think it is the rifles fault. The bushnell scope has distortion from edge to edge. Its kind of like looking through a the bottom of pop bottle. I will try different loads. My rest has been a pile of sandbags. The trigger is a two stage from dpms. I have another 3-9x40 nikon on my 243 wssm. If things dont get better I think i'll do a swap. Thanks for all of the help. I'll keep you all posted as things progress. I would like to see a consistent 1 to 2" pattern at 200 yards.
 
The Bushnell Banner is just one step above the Sportsview from Bushnell and neither is something to write home to momma about . With that said, shooting groups at 200 yard is much harder to do than most think. It has more to do with shooting form , even tho you have to have equipment cablecable of doing it . I can't say 100% since i don't own a D-Tech built AR but he does have a good reputation for building accurate rifles on this forum. My guess would be the problem is more your shooting style than the rifle set up you are using, even tho the rifle would benefit from a better scope and better ammo. Scopes with cheap lens tend to have a lot of parallax, which makes shooting small groups extremely hard to do, especially at 200 yards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
yoopereh:

Quote:
The Bushnell scope has distortion from edge to edge.



Some good advice above; here's a couple more things to think about.

Sounds as if the scope leaves a bit to be desired.

Having said that, a couple of other things come to mind. Put the rifle in a solid rest (you can wedge it into your sandbags to hold it steady)aimed at your 200 yard target. Now move your eye side to side and look for any movement of the crosshairs on the target. If there is movement, this will cause your groups to open due to parallax in the scope if your eye is not in exactly the same position from one shot to the next.

Another thing that may help is to experiment with target size. I like a square target and aim just off of a corner; that is to say I bracket the target with crosshairs. I can hold much closer than trying to center a circle. If you prefer to center your target, try to find a size that leaves a small amount of orange showing at each quadrant of the crosshairs at the range you are shooting; too much or too little is harder to center.

One other thing comes to mind. Are you switching from a bolt gun to the AR? When I made the switch, I found that the high mounted scope made it more difficult to get a cheek weld on the stock and had to alter my shooting position to a "high chin/low cheek" weld to assure same eye relief/position on the scope. Move your head around and your groups will open without parallax and even more with.

Regards,
hm
 
Thanks for all the help guys. Just came back from watching Bradley a trick shooter with Benelli. [beeep] that guy is good.
 
Yoopereh,
You have a 50 yard scope on a 500 yard rifle.

Change scopes and refine your technique and you will find the results you seek.

I have a DTech rifle and it shoots just fine; I have a V24 scope on it (Mike Milli shared with me after I purchased the scope that he uses these for accuracy testing, too).

Best of luck to you,

Karl in Phoenix
 
Figure if your getting 1" at 100 Yards by doubleing the range your going to at least double the group size. Before you toss that scope have a friend who you know can shoot well test fire a few groups at 100, 200, and 300 yards. That will tell you if it is your scope or you. I am betting you will find you just need to work on breath and trigger squeeze.
 
I shoot pretty good at 100 yards but the farther away the target gets, the worse I shoot. Tried to blaim the rifles, but everytime I shoot past 200 yards my groups get bigger, no matter what I shoot. All my rifle must have the same problem, me. All the info above was very good, but it seems the farther you shoot, its a whole new game that only practice will cure. (A really big scope doesnt hurt either.)

Pysco-dog
 
You will often experience increased distortion when you up the magnification to the upper end of a scope's limit. And, it seems more so in cheaper scopes. But, if you have any question as to whether it's the scope or you, let a shooter who you know to be skilled shoot it. If they have similar problems at longer ranges, it's probably the scope.

Shooting small groups with lower power scopes can be done, but it puts a premium on shooter skill and the quality of the target. Some targets are easier to maintain a consistent point of aim than are others. Bullseye targets tend to be the worst for this kind of precision shooting. I often will take a two strips of electrician's tape and make a cross ...... not an X. If you make your taped lines wide enough, you can match them up with your cross hairs easier. With your scope, you will probably need something in the order of 2" taped lines, perhaps a bit wider at 200 yards.
 
How many wind flags are you using? When groups get that much worse at 200 it is usually a case of not reading conditions, wind and mirage.

Jack
 
A-Men Jack!

At 200 yards, wind tears groups all to heck, especially in a 223!

First of all, you need to have the utmost confidence in dtech.

As others have mentioned, your scope does not match your rifle. A Bushnell 4-16 4200x40mm would be an excellent scope for your rifle.

Good luck!
 
DPMS two stage triggers are not among the best for precision shooting... I've had a couple and they can be improved or upgraded.

Listen to most of the advice above, but especially the need to practice at longer distances... I know I can shoot reasonably good at 100yds, but the 200yd and above ranges require me to spend a lot more time and effort to achieve reasonable results.

The stability of your rifle and the trigger can be primary factors when the group starts to open up, provided you are maintaining the exact sight picture from shot to shot..regardless of the scope... If the wind is consistent, the group will generally stay the same, even if it drifts.
 
I just scanned thru the replies so I apologize if someone has already said this: Maybe the bullet has lost stabiliaztion. Try different ammo. If you are reloading use a smaller bullet. I've had loads that would open up expotentially after 100 yards if the bullets wouldn't stay stabilized. I'm no fan of bushnell products. I only buy Leopold today, but I'm richer in my old age than when I was young. I use to use Bushnell stuff.
 
As a general rule bullets almost always become more stable at longer ranges. This is because velocity decays much faster than RPM.

Jack
 
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