Temperature sensitivities for powders

Posted by: Hcboy

Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/06/18 10:06 PM

Iím curious if thereís any websites or somewhere on this forum that has information on powder temperature sensitivity? Iím mostly interested in the temp sensitivity in cfe 223 and 8202 xbr. Does anybody know how susceptible these powders are in the cold? Living in North Dakota itís something I want to be aware of and avoid developing loads that are prone to this. Thanks
Posted by: Rock Knocker

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/06/18 11:20 PM

I threw together a load last winter with CFE223 and it shot amazing with little testing, this summer shooting the same load the groups were very poor. I haven't done any testing to find out what was going on, if I was really trying to figure it out I would down load the CFE a little in the summer and test if that was the problem, but for whatever reason, there was a large difference.

If you're not familiar with CFE223 (Copper Foiling Eraser), CFE can perfectly also represent Carbon Fouling Explosion, it's messy powder. Sometimes I do some shooting with my AR and leave the gun loaded, left loaded for a couple days and the top rounds in the magazine start to tarnish from whatever they put in the powder to cut down on copper fouling.

Not to say CFE223 sucks, if I can get it to shoot year round how it was shooting last winter I would put up with it's downfalls, because it was doing great.

Here in MN I shoot if it's -25 or 95+, the best powders I have used and been consistent year round have been from Hodgdons extreme powder line. IMR has come out with their equivalent "Enduron" powder line that's supposed to be pretty good with temperature stability also but I haven't tried any yet.
Posted by: Hcboy

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/07/18 11:29 AM

Sounds like cfe 223 might have some temporary sensitivity. Iím using h322 currently which is in the extreme line of Hodgdon but just wanted to make sure Iím not missing out on something.
Posted by: rudymontana

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/07/18 11:43 AM

I use CF&E 223 year round here in Montana. Never been a problem. I use it in my 223 & 204. I don't load hot, I find what works for my rifle and use that load. I go to the range before I start the fall predator calling and in the spring for prairie dogs. That way I know that the rifle is going to shoot where I aim. JMO

Rudy
Posted by: reloader326

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/07/18 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: rudymontana
I use CF&E 223 year round here in Montana. Never been a problem. I use it in my 223 & 204. I don't load hot, I find what works for my rifle and use that load. I go to the range before I start the fall predator calling and in the spring for prairie dogs. That way I know that the rifle is going to shoot where I aim.

+1
We can believe the commercials, the hype and our friends, but this is the only surefire way to prove that you are spot on.
I make it a point to take several trips to the range throughout the year, just to make sure that the guns I'm hunting with are still dialed in with the load I will be hunting with.
I've heard that IMR8208XBR is supposed to be temp insensitive, cfe223 makes no such claims.
Posted by: SnowmanMo

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/07/18 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Hcboy
Iím curious if thereís any websites or somewhere on this forum that has information on powder temperature sensitivity? Iím mostly interested in the temp sensitivity in cfe 223 and 8202 xbr. Does anybody know how susceptible these powders are in the cold? Living in North Dakota itís something I want to be aware of and avoid developing loads that are prone to this. Thanks


Someone over on 68forums.com posted this chart. You might be able to find a factory temp sensitivity chart from a manufacturer.
download (1) by Jason Mosler, on Flickr
Posted by: EMP3

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/07/18 07:17 PM

I'm no powder expert. I do believe powder "sensitivity" is more marketing gimmick than reality. I've killed big game at freezing temps and a shirt sleeve elk rut hunt. Temps didn't affect accuracy.

There's an old fishermen saying: fishing tackle is designed to catch fishermen. I can trout fish the Western USA with a half-dozen lures. I can offshore fish for big tune with a couple. I learned the expensive way: I have tackle boxes full of stuff that has never touched water.

I'm new to predator/small game hunting. I've bought a pound of IMR-4198 for my brand stanking new Triple Deuce. I have a feeling it'll be the only powder I'll need. I can load my big game rifles with only H-4831 & be content.

Just my opinion, and I ain't a powder expert. I merely know what works.
Posted by: 204 AR

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/07/18 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Hcboy
Iím curious if thereís any websites or somewhere on this forum that has information on powder temperature sensitivity? Iím mostly interested in the temp sensitivity in cfe 223 and 8202 xbr. Does anybody know how susceptible these powders are in the cold? Living in North Dakota itís something I want to be aware of and avoid developing loads that are prone to this. Thanks


I wanted to know about 8208 so I tested it. I loaded 5 in a mag and threw it in the freezer for awhile. And threw another mag in the oven, checking it often, till it was just fairly warm. There was quite a difference in speeds, I'm thinking 80 fps but can't remember for sure, I just know it was more than I was expecting.

I don't remember seeing any difference in accuracy, so the only problem would be with your dope on longish shots.
Posted by: Hcboy

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 02:58 PM

Wow thank you gentlemen.

Originally Posted By: SnowmanMo
Originally Posted By: Hcboy
Iím curious if thereís any websites or somewhere on this forum that has information on powder temperature sensitivity? Iím mostly interested in the temp sensitivity in cfe 223 and 8202 xbr. Does anybody know how susceptible these powders are in the cold? Living in North Dakota itís something I want to be aware of and avoid developing loads that are prone to this. Thanks


Someone over on 68forums.com posted this chart. You might be able to find a factory temp sensitivity chart from a manufacturer.
download (1) by Jason Mosler, on Flickr

This shows a pretty significant drop for cfe 223 if Iím reading it right.
Posted by: Rock Knocker

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 05:02 PM

Originally Posted By: EMP3
I've bought a pound of IMR-4198 for my brand stanking new Triple Deuce. I have a feeling it'll be the only powder I'll need. I can load my big game rifles with only H-4831 & be content.


Hodgdon 4831 is very temperature stable, and IMR4198 is pretty good also, that's why you can use them year round with zero problem. If you were using temperature sensitive powders you would see a difference in climates that swing over 110 degrees.
Posted by: reb8600

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: EMP3
I'm no powder expert. I do believe powder "sensitivity" is more marketing gimmick than reality. I've killed big game at freezing temps and a shirt sleeve elk rut hunt. Temps didn't affect accuracy.


Temperature sensitivity is not a gimmick. I have seen some big differences in loads worked up in the winter then shot in the summer with some powders.
Posted by: GLShooter

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 07:25 PM

748 is the powder of the devil when it gets hot. I've blown more primers with it in OKLAHOMA/ARIZONA heat with cool temp loads than everything else. I don't load anything with it now.

Greg
Posted by: Bob_Atl

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 07:29 PM

powder temp stability is an issue, apparently more so for some than others.
picked this up off the www so it has to be right, right?
_______________________________________________________

HS-6 1.21 fps per *
H110/W296 1.24 fps per *
Imr4227 1.17fps per *
Lil' Gun 1.31 fps per *
RL10x .71 fps per*
Benchmark .44 fps per *
Imr3031 .73 fps per *
Imr8208xbr .59 fps per *
H4895 .23 fps per *
Alliant Varmint pro .89 fps per *
Alliant AR comp .77 fps per *
Varget .19 fps per *
W748 1.32 fps per *
Imr4064 .53 fps per *
Ramshot Tac .91 fps per *
CFE223 1.72 fps per *
Imr4895 .87 fps per *
AA4064 1.11 fps per *
AA2520 .98 fps per *
RL15 1.52 fps per * from 50* and up
PP2000MR .99 fps per *
Imr4320 1.32 fps per *
Ramshot Biggame .98 fps per *
H380 1.44 fps per *
VV N150 1.08 fps per *
H414/W760 1.42 fps per *
Imr4350 .64 fps per *
AA4350 .47 fps per *
H4350 .29 fps per *
RL17 1.42 fps per *
Hybrid 100v .78 fps per *
RL19 1.61 fps per *
VV N160 1.24 fps per *
Imr4831 1.19 fps per *
Ramshot Hunter .86 fps per *
H4831 .36 fps per *
RL22 1.71 fps per *
Imr7828 1.36 fps per *
Magpro 1.01 fps per *
H1000 .21 fps per *
RL25 1.59 fps per *
Ramshot Magnum .87 fps per *
Retumbo .49 fps per *
US869 1.68 fps per *
H50bmg 1.64 fps per *




Posted by: Hellgate

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 08:48 PM

Same experience as GLShooter with 748. Worked up max loads in the cool of winter (in the 40s) blew primers & seized up a bolt on my Rem 788 shooting sage rats in the hot summer. I still use 748 but not near max loads.
Posted by: 19grizz69

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 09:40 PM

EMP3 i can tell you have never used h380 power this is very temp. sensitive.the difference in my 243 at 50 degrees and at 15 below is around 500 fps.Living in Montana i have the ability to shot in temps. from 40 below to 100 above . i have pages of loads shot at many different temps. all power are effected by temp.
Posted by: rudymontana

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 10:17 PM

Interesting figures! Still go to the range when seasons change and check the zero. I put my coyote rounds away after the season. I load up for P.D. season in late spring and zero the rifle again. I haven't shot any of the above powders, just the CF&E in my 223 and 204.

Rudy
Posted by: spotstalkshoot

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/08/18 10:18 PM

That's why I like Varget and H4895.
Posted by: Bob_Atl

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/09/18 08:54 AM

here's another chart, found it on the 6.5 G forum, again fwiw..


and took the previous chart then sorted it, twice....
no surprise these two charts are very close but not exact !!


Posted by: Matt1953

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/09/18 12:27 PM

Great info guys. Iím going to make this a sticky.
Posted by: Lodgepole

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/17/18 09:12 PM

Help ! What does the # mean ! such as CFE --1.72 ? Is it a percentage of the ????
Posted by: 204 AR

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/17/18 09:42 PM

I believe it means 1.72 fps change per degree difference.
Posted by: GLShooter

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/17/18 10:05 PM

Yep.

Greg
Posted by: Lodgepole

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 11/18/18 12:22 AM

GL & 204 Thanks for this info .OK ,so if it is 50 degrees colder then 50 x 1.72 fps slower .That is not going to make a bunch of difference if I am getting this right ? 86 FPS slower. Thank you both
Posted by: firehunt77

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 12/01/18 04:38 PM

I am very good friends with the Hodgdon family and I have a couple of friends that work at Hodgdon powder company. I have asked the same question about temp sensitive powders. Their answer in short is, any Hodgdon "extreme" powder or any IMR "enduron" powder is temp stable. Other powders that are not in the Extreme or Enduron lines will be effected more by temperature swings. Also, all temp stable powder is an extruded powder. However, not all extruded powder is temp stable. I can't speak for other powders out there since I only use Hodgdon and IMR. Hope this helps a little.
Posted by: HunterLee

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 12/31/18 12:43 PM

BLC2 is not a cold weather powder and found that the hard way. Shot great in the fall working on a load. Come coyote season I was key howling but it was -10.

All my coyote loads are extreme loads. When it gets real cold, like -20, even they seem to lose a little bit.
Posted by: Redneckbmxer24

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 12/31/18 02:27 PM

Originally Posted By: HunterLee
BLC2 is not a cold weather powder and found that the hard way. Shot great in the fall working on a load. Come coyote season I was key howling but it was -10.

All my coyote loads are extreme loads. When it gets real cold, like -20, even they seem to lose a little bit.


If you're key holing it's not the powder and most likely not related to the decrease of velocity although that could play a small roll. More than likely it was the drop in temperature as that plays a larger role in stability than 100fps or so in velocity loss.

Most likely your bullet was on the ragged edge of stability and the temperature drop threw it out. The lower the temperature the lower your stability factor will be. Berger has a handy stability calculator that you can play around with by entering your bullet info and twist rate (always best to measure yours since they can easily vary as much as .5"). It's a nice tool to check out.
Posted by: trshootem

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 02/11/19 09:02 PM

I used CFE223 and BL-C2 in .22-250 and .223 last season, based on that chart it seems pretty accurate. I also noted that CFE appears to be the same powder compound as the BL, but modified with tin oxide? for copper dispersion. I answered my own questions about these in cold weather, so I have gone back the Extreme variety. In .280 Remington, RL19 and RL22 also exhibited some velocity loss in cold weather, typically near zero* or below.
Posted by: Plant.One

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 02/12/19 12:55 AM

i wonder if those numbers in the charts from the 65g forum are caliber and barrel length specific or not?



still a neat reference for comparing sensitivity though as a rough gauge at the very least
Posted by: 70sdiver

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 02/12/19 11:38 AM

blc-2 will spike in warm temps if you work up loads in the fall or winter and shoot in the summer.worked up some .223 loads for coyotes temps at testing around 40 degrees and about .05 under max hogden load data.went sage rat shooting at 90-92 degrees and pierced primers.
Posted by: wileC

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 02/15/19 05:54 AM

So I would assume the FPS numbers you get from a reloading manual would be a regulated temp of say 70 degrees?
Posted by: Bob_Atl

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 02/15/19 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: wileC
So I would assume the FPS numbers you get from a reloading manual would be a regulated temp of say 70 degrees?

As good an assumption as any,,, works for me.
Posted by: Plant.One

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 02/15/19 12:39 PM

hornady doesnt list that data in their books that i can see, but i'm sure a quick note to tech support would get the info.
Posted by: Don Fischer

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 06/01/19 04:29 PM

I have heard about temperature sensitive powder since I started reloading. That was about 1966! I have never run into a problem that I'm aware of with any powder. I suspect temp can make a difference but I have never noticed it. I have never loaded and worked up loads in freezing weather, I like spring weather for working up loads. I have never hunted in weather in the 90+ range either. Make's me sweat to much. I just don't see this as being the problem it's made out to be but I do guarantee you one thing. You think you need it and someone is gonna develop it for you for a price! Manufacturer's are much more tuned into what you want than what you really need!
Posted by: Hellgate

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 06/03/19 08:30 PM

I worked up a load (as recommended in Bob Hagel's book on practical ballistics for the N. American Hunter) which was on the upper end of the charts. Actually, exceeding the charts and managed to blow primers and seize the bolt on a Remington 788 .223. I worked up the load in the winter and shot in July using W748 powder. I'll never do that again.
Posted by: reb8600

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 06/03/19 09:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Don Fischer
I have heard about temperature sensitive powder since I started reloading. That was about 1966! I have never run into a problem that I'm aware of with any powder. I suspect temp can make a difference but I have never noticed it. I have never loaded and worked up loads in freezing weather, I like spring weather for working up loads. I have never hunted in weather in the 90+ range either. Make's me sweat to much. I just don't see this as being the problem it's made out to be but I do guarantee you one thing. You think you need it and someone is gonna develop it for you for a price! Manufacturer's are much more tuned into what you want than what you really need!


So you have never worked up a load in the winter or shot in 90+ degree weather but say that temp tolerant powder is not an issue. I have done both and can tell you that some are real sensitive to temperature fluctuations.
Posted by: ackleyman

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 09/04/19 11:09 AM

Those of us older folks learned a long time ago that it is best to have a hot weather load and a cold weather load, and ask God for the Common sense to know the difference.

I and partners shot 748,335, Win 760, and AA2700 going from 75*-100*, but we knew how to deal with it, the bonus was long barrel life.

Old time favorites like IMR 3031,4895, 4064, 4350 all had at least a .5g pressure spike, so backing off the load a tad was always in order for red hot dog towns...literally.

So, Hellgate, you know how all of old pharts dealt with this through the years. It takes shooting a rifle in the Winter, then again in the Summer recording loads and we used an Ohler 33. The accuracy node was usually at a particular speed.

So, to make the load development easy, we backed off the COLD weather load 2.0--2.5g in hot weather and worked up. When we hit the Winter time accuracy(speed), Accuracy was back again!!! Dumb butt simple! This aint even close to rocket science.

Now, for all of those that have drank the Kool Aid that the NON temp sensitive powder are not sensitive to hot and cold weather...well, You are probably not using a chronograph and shooting very small groups.

If I were out to get a one load do all, I would go to the Enduron series of powders, and look no further. I have found that H4895, Varget, and H4350 do vary from very cold to very hot weather(32-95*) when you are looking for bug hole groups. Varget burns ungodly hot, another issue when it comes to cleaning hard cooked on carbon out of the barrel .

There is a heat index for various powders, and I hope you will take this index to heart as it is will bring front and center how a powder choice will burn up a barrel quicker/slower. Don't confuse the burning rate chart with heat index chart.

Learning to reload is a life time hobby with all of it's various tid bits of information that will add to your education of being your own
ballistician.
Posted by: longrange454

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 02/14/20 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By: reb8600
Originally Posted By: Don Fischer
I have heard about temperature sensitive powder since I started reloading. That was about 1966! I have never run into a problem that I'm aware of with any powder. I suspect temp can make a difference but I have never noticed it. I have never loaded and worked up loads in freezing weather, I like spring weather for working up loads. I have never hunted in weather in the 90+ range either. Make's me sweat to much. I just don't see this as being the problem it's made out to be but I do guarantee you one thing. You think you need it and someone is gonna develop it for you for a price! Manufacturer's are much more tuned into what you want than what you really need!


So you have never worked up a load in the winter or shot in 90+ degree weather but say that temp tolerant powder is not an issue. I have done both and can tell you that some are real sensitive to temperature fluctuations.
Most definetly so. Found that out using AA2520. May not be such an issue on deer sized game or larger, but on coyote and smaller . Yes.
Posted by: ackleyman

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 07/08/20 09:17 PM

Varget and H4895 eats barrels like you are shooting battery acid, special purpose powders only!!!!


Seems like no body has any common sense these days!
Posted by: Plant.One

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 07/10/20 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: longrange454
Most definetly so. Found that out using AA2520. May not be such an issue on deer sized game or larger, but on coyote and smaller . Yes.



i made a post elsewhere, but happened to see your note on 2520... there;s a recall just issued a few days ago on that powder.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Recall-7-3-2020.jpg

hth

stay safe!
Posted by: Zastava223rem

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 12/04/20 01:51 PM

Originally Posted By: reb8600
Originally Posted By: Don Fischer
I have heard about temperature sensitive powder since I started reloading. That was about 1966! I have never run into a problem that I'm aware of with any powder. I suspect temp can make a difference but I have never noticed it. I have never loaded and worked up loads in freezing weather, I like spring weather for working up loads. I have never hunted in weather in the 90+ range either. Make's me sweat to much. I just don't see this as being the problem it's made out to be but I do guarantee you one thing. You think you need it and someone is gonna develop it for you for a price! Manufacturer's are much more tuned into what you want than what you really need!


So you have never worked up a load in the winter or shot in 90+ degree weather but say that temp tolerant powder is not an issue. I have done both and can tell you that some are real sensitive to temperature fluctuations.


Yep, just about any Ball powder comes to mind. A Max load of H335 developed in 50 degree weather sure does change in 92 degree summer heat.
Posted by: 6GUNSONLY

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 12/07/20 08:10 AM

Good info here and food for thought. I don't tend to shoot (rifles, anyway) or hunt in hot weather and my area doesn't have extremely cold weather (we love it if it is actually freezing or below, hunting is usually better), so I guess it's never been a big issue. But something to keep in mind if say, I were going to hunt elsewhere in temps colder than are typical for me. My most used rifle powders recently have been AA-2230 (.223), Reloder 15 (.308), and H-4350 (6.5 Rem. Mag.). I know none of those are "stabilized" powders, but how do those tend to rate on the sensitivity scale?
Posted by: Zastava223rem

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 12/07/20 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By: 6GUNSONLY
Good info here and food for thought. I don't tend to shoot (rifles, anyway) or hunt in hot weather and my area doesn't have extremely cold weather (we love it if it is actually freezing or below, hunting is usually better), so I guess it's never been a big issue. But something to keep in mind if say, I were going to hunt elsewhere in temps colder than are typical for me. My most used rifle powders recently have been AA-2230 (.223), Reloder 15 (.308), and H-4350 (6.5 Rem. Mag.). I know none of those are "stabilized" powders, but how do those tend to rate on the sensitivity scale?


H4350 is actually one of the most stable powders out there right up with Varget. I have heard mixed opinions on RL15, I have 5 lbs but havent tested it yet. Not sure about 2230, is it ball or extruded?
Posted by: baltz526

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 05/27/21 06:24 PM

Loading up to max is the problem with some powders in the heat of summer. I have never had a problem with W748 with lead core bullets. Solid copper/gilding metal bullets, yes.
Posted by: Terry Lightle

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 05/29/21 06:27 PM

Only problem with powder I have had was with H380,worked load in winter and following summer accuracy went to [beeep] in a hand basket,Varget ever since for me.Was in 22-250 with 55 V MAX
Posted by: Stugotz

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 09/23/21 05:27 PM

Deleated
Posted by: Stugotz

Re: Temperature sensitivities for powders - 09/23/21 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Bob_Atl
here's another chart, found it on the 6.5 G forum, again fwiw..


and took the previous chart then sorted it, twice....
no surprise these two charts are very close but not exact !!




Could you provide a link as to where these charts originated? TIA