NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy...

Posted by: GC

NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 06:29 PM

The Day, Range, and Set-up...

The day was bright and clear. Temperature was in the mid-60's with a moderate swirling wind blowing. The range is equipped with large, very solid, wooden benches bolted to a concrete base. An Outers Varminter Rifle Rest was used to steady the shotguns while sighting. Patterns were shot at 25, 40, and 50 yards from the bench. There were at least two shots of each combination fired at each range. A 4'x4' piece of 3/4" plywood was used as a target backer. The targets themselves are Score Keeper 100 Yard SmallBore Rifle targets. The black inner circle is 8" in diameter, the outermost scoring ring is 12" in diameter. There were no other shooters on the range, and no interuptions of any sort. A really nice day...

Shotguns...

The two shotguns used are mine. Both are .12 gauge and chambered for 3" shells. Both have screw-in chokes. Both shotguns have chrome lined bores and were cleaned before this testing.

The first is my Benelli M1S90 Camo Turkey Gun with a 24" barrel. It has an orange fiber optic bead sight and is sling equipped.


The second shotgun is my Benelli M1S90 Tactical Model. This shotgun has an 18 1/2" barrel and low profile rugged sights. It is also sling equipped.


Chokes...

The chokes used are from Kick's-Ind. One is a Gobblin' Thunder .660". The other a BuckKicker .680". Both are angle ported and extend 1 1/2" from the barrel.


Loads...

The loads tested were IMHO the best choices available at this time for 3" .12 gauge shotguns. The first was my old reliable Federal Premium No. Four Buck 41 pellet load at 1,210 fps as specified by the factory.


The next is the Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote T-shot and 1,300 fps.


Next was Remington's HD T-shot at 1,300 fps.


Last of the loads tested was Remington HD BB at 1,300 fps.


Because of the number of images this post contains it must be continued...
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 06:34 PM

PART TWO...

Patterns... 25 Yards

The first series of patterns were shot at 25 yards. This first target is from my old reliable Turkey/.660" combo and the Fed. No. 4BK. There were 25 hits in the 8" black. Counting all the hits a total of 34 within the 12" scoring rings. Target 1:


Target 2 is the Tactical/.680" with Fed. No.4BK. There are 20 hits within the 8" black, and 35 total within the 12" rings.


Target 3 is the Tactical/.680" combo with Dead Coyote T-shot. This scored 28 hits within the 8" black and 40 total within the 12".


Target 4 is the Tactical/.680" and Rem. HD T-shot. This scored 17 hits in the black and 28 overall. In fairness to this load it shot slightly high and afterward required a six o'clock hold. This is the only load that patterned slightly off the exact point of aim from my guns and chokes.


Target 5 is the Tactical/.680" and Rem. HD BB load. It scored 35 hits within the black and 47 total in the 12" rings.


I did try the Rem HD BB-load from the .660" choke and it exhibited the classic over choked "donut pattern." At this 25 yards distance the pattern was wide open in the middle with only a few strikes around the edges of the scoring rings. Everything else was clumped together in small places scattered around the edges of the target paper. A very wild pattern. At 40 yards I tried the same thing and could reuse the target as it only had a very few pellet strikes on it anywhere. The HD BB load and .660" choke were completely incompatiable for me.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 06:36 PM

PART THREE...

40 Yard Patterns...

Target 6 is the Turkey/.660" Fed 4BK combo. There were 8 hits in the black and 14 total within the scoring rings. I don't know about this. Past testing has proven this to pattern better...


Target 7 is the Tactical/.680" and Fed. 4BK. I scored these targets by counting any pellet that cut the line. With that said, this combo scored 10 hits in the black and 13 total. In truth, 3 of those ten were line cutters on the black 8" innner circle at five o'clock. In this testing I feel the .660" Gobblin' Thunder performed better with No. 4BK than the .680 X-Full BuckKicker choke. Judge for yourself...


Target 8 is the Tactical/.680" with Dead Coyote T's. This scored 10 hits in the black and 18 overall.


Target 9 demonstrates how finicky shotguns, chokes, and loads can be. This is the same combo as above, the Tactical/.680"/DC-T's, only the hits are much better. This target has 17 in the black and 25 overall. Interesting huh?


Target 10 is the Tactical/.680" Rem HD T's. I could not get this load to shoot well at all. It scored 7 hits in the black and 18 overall.


Target 11 is the Tactical/.680" with Rem HD BB load. This wanted to shoot a bit high at 40 yards and this and the next target clearly shows that tendency. This target scored 19 in the black and 30 overall.


Target 12 is the same as above with a six o'clock hold. Not quite as many hits overall, but much better centered. There were 15 in the black here and 28 overall.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 06:37 PM

PART FOUR...

50 Yard Patterns...

It's a long way out there fellows... Target 13 is my old standby, the Turkey/.660" with Fed No. 4BK. 7 centered hits in the black and 10 overall makes it a killer out there at the mid-field mark. NOTE: I only had one last shell to pop with this combo at 50 yards. I hesitate to say this, however, past testing tells me this combo usually patterns better than this particular target would indicate.

Byron South and I have discussed this, we both feel you need at least five solid hits for reliable kills. I don't believe in the "magic pellet" and hoping for one or two lucky pellet strikes. Many of these new fangled hi-tech loads have the pellet energy for five good hits to reliably kill coyotes at long range. But can you get the pattern out there... Here's Target 13:


Target 14 is the Tactical/.680" and Dead Coyote combo. This one scored 6 in the black and 9 overall.


Target 15 is the Tactical/.680" and Rem HD-T load. Only 4 in the black and 10 overall.


Target 16 is the exact same as above - another try. 4 hits in the black and 8 overall.


Target 17 is the Tactical/.680" and Rem HD-BB. Scored 5 hits in the black and 9 overall.


Target 18 is the same as above - another try. 6 in the black and 7 overall.


SUMMARY

Without a doubt there is a lot of work left to be done. Nothing here really blew me away! I honestly thought I was going to find a wiz-bang long distance load that would really strut its stuff. I did not find such a load and choke combo on this day... I only wish I had more chokes, loads, and time to work with. I really wanted to chronograph the loads to see if the 5 1/2" inches in barrel length made much difference in velocity. Unfortunately after taking the time to setup my CED chronograph for this test - it didn't work. I had two fresh batteries along, nothing, it wouldn't turn on. That was a set back. Guess it'll be making a trip back to the factory for repair.

I did not test penetration of the individual loads. That would be interesting and useful information. I just had too much on the plate on this day for that extra testing.

I also wanted to dissect the various loads, count pellets, and weight them. I started shooting and simply lost track of the number of shells I was gunning donwrange.

It did seem as if the longer barrel of the Turkey Model with its 24" inch tube out patterned the shorter 18 1/2" Tactical Model. That would need some more testing to ensure that the difference simply wasn't between individual shells. There can be a marked difference between identical shells from the same box. Maybe that explains why sometimes we have to add an additional shot when other coyotes have dropped on the spot under similar shot conditions. I have that planned for a future range session.

In my guns the .660" definately outshot the .680" with the Fed No. 4BK. I did try No. 4BK through the Turkey gun with both chokes and the .660" simply outshot the more open choke. I ran out of the Federal load before I was completely through with what I wanted to do. All these loads were older shells and this will give me a chance to buy some fresh shells. I noticed that Federal is making a big deal about "spiral loading" the shot and this is supposed to contribute to tighter patterns. We'll see... And, the .680" performed much, much, better with the Rem HD-BB load. It pays to pattern with various chokes.

That range work is also important for point of aim issues. I'm pretty lucky with my Benelli's. They both seemed to shoot everything pretty well right to point of aim with the exception of the Tactical shooting slightly high with the Rem HD stuff at longer distances. Not a biggie for me, but absolutely worth noting if those were going to be my "go-to" hunting loads. I've seen other shotguns shoot much further off point of aim. Gotta see what they'll do on paper - no excuses.

The same thing applies to some of those 70+ yard claims for choke or load effectivness. No doubt some loads have the energy - if you can hold a pattern together out there. Obviously, nothing shot that well for me and my combo's.

Again, there is more work to do. I love this stuff, just finding the resources and time to "git er' done" is sometimes problematic. We'll probably draw some varying conclusions from this testing. Of course this particualr testing is all conditional upon my guns, chokes, and these particular loads. However, hopefully this will be useful...

UPDATED SUMMARY...

I have edited this post to bring my latest batch of testing to the front of this very complete and lengthy thread...

A update is in order. I now have a Kick's Gobblin' Thunder in .670" thanks to Chuck from Kick's Chokes. Can't say enough about how well I have been treated by the Kick's company - superb product and better service! Anyway, I grabbed a chance to head to the range today with some Remington HD-BB's, 3" .12 gauge.

I shot both Benelli's with the same .670" GT at 25, 40, and 50 yards and the HD-BB's. This load has been extremely consistent in patterning and I've shot a bunch of it at paper this year! Unfortunately, the target backers were soaked and as soon as I placed the same Outers targets on and stapled them, they soaked right through with water. I made my counts while the targets were stapled flat to the backer and when I pulled them off to bring home for pic's they pretty much shredded. Bummer because this time I had some pretty fair patterns to show off!

Using the same procedure as in my original post, the Outers target has a black inner circle of 8" and scoring rings the largest of which reaches out to 12". At 25 yards (and all the ranges) I shot 5 targets with the Tactical/.670" HD-BB and 5 with the Turkey Model/.670" HD-BB combo. In the other testing I felt the 24" barrel of the Turkey Model Benelli slightly outshot the shorter 18 1/2" Tactical Benelli. Not this time, the Tac Model outshot the longer barreled Turkey brother with the .670" GT.

25 yard patterns gave me a saturated 8" circle with from 37 - 40 hits. The outer 12" rings all contained 55 - 62 strikes. It was obvious the Gobblin' Thunder .670" was shooting a very center dense pattern. Both guns shot right to point of aim with the choke and HD-BB load. It was a pretty impressive looking 25 yard performance.

40 yard performance went like this. The inner 8" took 25 - 30 hits. The 12" total count average 35 strikes.

The long range 50 yard patterns still held 10 - 12 pellet strikes in the inner black 8" circle. The outer 12" scoring rings contained 18 - 20 strikes. Now we're talking a pattern and load that can easily get it done at the half field mark. Ok, I'm broke... Now I need to shoot some fur! And boy am I ready...

Conclusions...

At this point I think the very best of the best would be the Remington HD-BB load and a choke of .670" constriction. My testing would seem to indicate that this combination will give the max number of appropriately sized pellets (BB), harder and heavier than plated lead, fast at 1,300 fps, with considerably better penetration, this load has patterned very consistently throughout my shooting from two shotguns and two differing choke diameters. A new shooter, or, an older one that wants to try something new would do well to begin with the HD-BB/.670" combination. This compares to the newest cutting edge magnum type rifle cartridge/bullet combo in the hunting world. The downside? They are expensive...

For an inexpensive alternative, I have to look back at my old standard, No. Four Buck with a .660" choke. Much less expensive than the new fangled hi-tech loads and effective enough for most shotgunning of called predators. IMHO, the No. 4BK/.660" combo is sorta like the .30-06 of the hunting world, a proven standard by which all others will be judged by.

An observation, with all the testing I have done here and in the past, and all the results I have seen posted by reliable and honest shotgunners, not one of us has yet to discover the mythical "70+ yard shotgun, choke, or load." Maybe there is one floating around out there, but please excuse me if I seem skeptical when some of those wounderous claims of longrange shotgunning of 70 - 100 yard kills surface in a post or an advertisement from a company.

Another thing, this testing also drives home the point that patterning is so very important BEFORE you go hunting. One thing is for sure when talking shotguns, chokes, and loads... they are as finicky as any rifle can be. Change any one variable and the test shooting must begin again. I think I'm ready to go hunting...

Posted by: Weasel-UT

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 07:14 PM

Thanks for sharing your results. All very interesting information.
Posted by: yotenaylor

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 07:45 PM

WOW!!!! Thats a ton of work you've done. Thanks for takin the money and time to share that with all of us. Patterning shotguns is sometimes a brutal chore, looks like you put in a hard days work.

Im also using the kick's 660 in my 870 supermag. Its a solid performer for 4 buck for me as well.

So......what ya got in mind for penetration tests? Plywood? newspaper? flat stock?
Posted by: hm1996

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 07:46 PM

Very interesting; thanks for sharing.

Regards,
hm
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 08:40 PM

Thank you for that detailed report GC!

The .665 Kick's GT patterns 3" #4 Buck very well in my SBE...@ 40 yds. Very similar to your findings...
Posted by: iblong

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 08:43 PM

Thanks for taking the time,good info.
iblong
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 08:53 PM

Good job GC and thanks for all the information. Yesterday I shot some Remington Wingmaster HD 3" BB's and some Federal Premium 3" copper coated BB's at some 9-1/4" paper plates at 40 yards through a Carlson's Dead Coyote choke. The Rem HD 1-1/2 oz of HD BB's had 73 pellets in them and the Federal 1-7/8 oz of lead BB's had 98 pellets in them. The Remington HD load with less pellets in it put more holes in the paper plate at 40 yards. None of the Federal copper coated lead BB's penetrated the 3/4" plywood that I taped the paper plate to at 40 yards. About half of the Remington HD BB pellets penetrated the 3/4" plywood at 40 yards.

Thanks again GC for doing all the expensive work and sharing the results with us.
Posted by: rkite

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/07 10:01 PM

All of those loads look coyote deadly to me. I have not tried Dead Coyote but have been getting decent patterns with cheapo Remington 4 Buck and OO Buck loads with a .670 Trulock turkey tube. You would have at least 9+ hits on a coyote broadside with the 4 Buck load at 50 yards but a perfectly head on shot may be a little sparse at that distance. I have heard of people getting 60 yard patterns but have yet to see one on paper. Good Job!
Posted by: CDR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/16/07 08:25 AM

Thanks for the detailed work. Too many guys are satisfied to take a crack at a beer can sitting on a post and call it "pattern testing". They have no idea of how much time, energy and expense can be involved in doing it properly. And, more importantly, they have no idea as to how much variability there can be between the pattern performance of chokes/loads and guns being used.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/16/07 01:16 PM

Thanks for the compliments guys. It's about as much work to resize all those pictures, upload them to Hunt101, then post them here - as it is to pack the gear and shoot the patterns! Whew, that gave me a headache messing with all those pic's.

yotenalor,
For penetration I'd like to use soaked telephone books and measure the penetration in inches. That's not as scientific as ballistic gel, however, it's cheap, easy to work with, and a fairly good comparitor between loads. Regarding the recoil, I shot two rounds of skeet the evening before. Then, after testing these coyote hunting loads, I took the Tactical Model and patterned 00 Buck and slugs. BTW, it performed best with an Improved Modified choke for those two chores. Anyway, thank goodness for a slip on PAST recoil harness and Advil!

derbyacresbob,
Your testing also shows how important it is to pattern test. Shotguns, chokes, and loads are fickle as you show on your paper plates. Even though there are less pellets in the HD-BB load, it out shot the other conventional load of BB's. I've seen this before with a few different types of loads. Especially 2 3/4" plated lead BB's, these can be real sleepers for a good tight pattern. I think they've been bypassed with todays hi-tech loads, but back in the day they worked really well out to 40 yards.

rkite,
Most of those loads would kill a coyote to forty yards. However, beyond that is where it gets interesting and the "rubber meets the road."

CDR,
I'm not satisfied yet... I want to do more shooting and pattern testing. I need to get my chronograph fixed for some comparisons between barrel lengths. Penetration test would be really cool to do. This was a unique opportunity to shoot two near identical guns with different barrels lengths and a couple of different chokes to see how much those factors affect patterning. The frustrating part is the difference that can happen between two identical shots. One may pattern great, the other medicore at best. That variability is irratating as heck! And, I still haven't found a "wonder load" that'll snatch the earth out from under a coyote past mid-field. But I'm still plotting and planning...
Posted by: JAMaidens

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/16/07 01:35 PM

Great work GC... thanks for all the very well put together info!
Posted by: BigJake

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/16/07 01:38 PM

Wow that's a lot of money GC. The tests prove that even though there have been major improvements in shotgun technology, it is still a short range weapon and those 70+ yard kills we hear about have a bit of luck involved in them. But the shotgun will remain the weapon of choice in thick cover. The only load I have tried that you tested is the DC T-shot, and let me tell ya it's worth it. The fox I have shot with it have been pass throughs, at about 30-35yds...simply amazing.
Posted by: bigben

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/16/07 01:38 PM

not to high jack your thread but, here are some targets from the gun pictured in the bottom. barrel is a 18.5 inch cylnder barrel I picked up at a yard sale and I made a choke with a .690 constriction and this is what I got. the first one was the #4 buck remington 3" 41 pellet load and the bottom one was a BB 3" federal load it had 2oz of shot in it. the circle is roughly 4" wide and the cardboard was 24X24. both shot at 40 yds.



Posted by: bigben

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/16/07 01:42 PM

and thanks for doing this little test. bet your shoulder hurts.
Posted by: CDR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 07:39 AM

One thing I read, and this was supposed to have been taken from a factory email reply to an inquiry on the subject ...... Benelli bore ID tolerance runs from .721" to .728". So you are not necessarily just testing the effects of barrel length differences, unless you have also had your bore ID's mic'd to verify they are the same. I have read, most run close to .723" ID, but one of your guns could be oversized or undersized as compared to the other.
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 10:40 AM

GC many thanks for your detailed and comprehensive testing.

Wish I could of let you barrow my Carlsons DC choke for testing out of your Benelli's. Are you considering investing in one of the Carlsons????

I'm looking forward to the velocity tests between barrels though.

Interesting how on several of your targets you have several pellets touching or in close proximity to each other at various ranges. Fatal for the coyote if they are vital hits.

I don't think the HD in T has much potential, but the BB load looks good thanks to your testing and Bob's plate test.

I still think the 3" 4 buck and DC loads will be our best individual or combination of both loads for us in the field.

Shotguns are just plain fun in tight cover hunting, but for sure you must be ready for a follow up shot on these tuff predators if your shot is off the mark.

Thanks again for your detailed and expensive test..
Posted by: Squeeze

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 12:00 PM

I am not sure how far to open up the choke, but some of your
data suggests less restriction may improve pattern density.
I did a fair amount of pattern testing on some 10 ga.
Hevishot loads I developed for turkeys, and with the very
hard Hevishot, I found a sweet spot with an older Tru-Glo
Turkey choke, versus a more restrictive Patternmaster.
My brother also has a Browning Gold 10, and was using the
Patternmaster. His results, also showed poorer patterns
on both Hevishot, and Copper plated lead. He borrowed
my old Tru-Glo choke, and ended up having his gun guy search
for the out of production Tru-Glo, and now uses that choke
tube for turkeys, with both lead, and various Tungsten alloy
shots. Just a thought on something to look at. With little
to no shot deformation in the harder shots, the idea is less
choke gets more pellets heading straight down range versus
jamming in the tight choke tube, and getting "spun" out in
a slight arc. There is a sweet spot in the choke
restriction versus tungsten alloy shot pattern, though.
I tried my regular Browning Mod, Full, and Extra Full choke
tubes, and the results were poorer than the more restrictive
Tru-Glo. As for the exact measurements of the chokes, I
would have to check my data, in my loading shop, but the
bottom line is test all chokes available to you, even in
less restrictive chokes, with tungsten alloy shot. One will
jump out at you, especially at the 40 to 60 yard range.

Squeeze
Posted by: berettaman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 02:22 PM

Thanks for your patterening results GC! I know the work involved and I appreicate it. Nothing has beat my .660 extended turkey choke yet....have some work to do with #2 shot and hope it patterns as well with that choke, I really like that choke!!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 03:20 PM

Ben,
You're welocme into the thread, don't worry about "hijacking." This is all informational and every positive bit helps in my opinon.

CDR,
You're right, Benelli barrels run tighter than most other makers barrels do. It would be nice to have a 28" barrel and cut it off in two inch increments, testing the same criteria along the way, chokes, loads, and along with velocity data. At around $400 per barrel for the Benelli's, unless someone donates it, I don't see it happening by me. Plus, to be consistent in the testing you'd have to thread the barrel for the chokes each time it was cut off. That'd require a skilled machinest/gunsmith. A lot of trouble, but how cool would that be?!!! Turkey Hunter Magazine did this very thing awhile back and it was interesting information. I found it interesting the tighter the choke, the higher the velocity. IIRC a cylinder bore lost nearly 100 fps velocity from a turkey tight choke, which clocked much higher than the no choke cylinder barrel. Constriction allows pressure to build, thus higher velocity. Also, all other things equal, shorter barrels were slower than longer barrels up to about 28" or so. Factory velocities are supposedly quoted from 30" barrels.

Dogboy,
I would like to test a choke around .670" to compare to the .660" and .680" that I tested already. Rhino makes a .673" for the Benelli that looks really interesting. Except for the price, at $100 per Rhino choke! I don't really know the constriction of the Carlson's for the Benelli. Wonder if anyone has that data?

Squeeze,
Actually, I mistakenly ordered a looser constriction when I ordered the .680" and did shoot a few patterns with that choke before I sent it back. It did not shoot as well as the tighter chokes. You mentioned this:

Quote:

I found a sweet spot with an older Tru-Glo
Turkey choke, versus a more restrictive Patternmaster.




Patternmaster chokes are only a Modified to Improved Modified constriction, no tighter than that. If that Tru-Glo is a turkey choke it should be considerably tighter than the Patternmaster.

I agree 100% about shooting as many combinations as possible to determine the very best rig you can assemble. I mentioned above that when I was done with the predator loads I shot the Tactical Model with 00 Buck. I had four types of 00 buckshot and shot that through five choke tubes. Improved Modified gave the absolute best patterns for me, and two types of that buckshot were much better than the other two. One of those, the Federal Premium with FliteControl wad was head and shoulders better than the closest competitor, the Hornady TAP. The Fed Premium with IM choke patterns nine 00 pellets within 8"-10" inches at 25 yards. Just about perfect for my uses on the job...
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 03:43 PM

Question for you guys... Looking over the patterns and loads I posted - which load and choke combination would YOU choose? I haven't quite made up my mind yet...
Posted by: rkite

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 04:08 PM


I would say the Federal Premium 4 Buck loads. The patterns were as good as Dead Coyote and I would imagine are significantly less expensive.

I patterned with a .670 and .690 Trulock tubes with cheapo Federal 2 3/4 BB, 3" Remington Express 4 Buck and OO Buck loads. Next I am going to try Federal Premium 4 Buck.

Here were my results --> http://rodney.davisnetworks.com/web/patterns/buckshotPatterns.html
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 04:25 PM

GC,
I'm liking the Tactical/.680/Rem BB combo for pattern density @ 40 yards. Interestingly, my 835 has a short tube and I use a GT .680. Seems like a shorter barrel performs better with more gradual constriction?

Once you reach farther than 40yds, retained energy of pellets may begin to factor into the equation. Although the BBs do pattern real well, they may bleed off a lot of fps(energy) out past 40 yds, moreso than the larger #4 buck would. This is sheer speculation on my part, however.

Penetration tests @ 50yds with the different loads you selected would be VERY interesting to prove /disprove if that supposition is indeed accurate. I'm sure you know better than me that the pattern is only as good as how hard it is hitting...
Posted by: bigben

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 07:04 PM

here is some more pattern info on the famed dead coyote load. allright my opinion changed on dead coyote load. here is the pattern. I know it is not centered but there was a yellow flower in front of where I shot at and that was the aiming point. but check out how dense the shot is. this is actually the back side of the cardboard. I am also happy to report that this load kills yellow flowers. HeHe just for chits and giggles I went to 70 yds and shot a pattern. it hit three pellets in a 8"circle. not a 70 yd load but atleast a 60 yd load. if I wanted to waste the money I would really shoot the whole box of 10 but did not feel it was needed. 60 yds is a ways out there. and I will trust it. so is it worth the 29.00 I paid for it? every penny. the shot might not have been very good one at 70 yds beacause the dot in my scope and no rest I could have pulled it. this target was 50 yds away.

Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/07 09:29 PM

GC target #9 is my favorite. I judge the load at 40 yards and beyond to decide what I want to use.

Remember Bob's test on the plywood prior to your testing?

Most of the hevishot pellets punched through the plywood at 50 yards. That's impressive to me...

I agree with bigben that the DC load is a for sure out to 60 yards.

Based on Bob's and your testing, and one dead coyote we got at 68 yards, I'm convinced it's an excellent load.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 09:23 AM

The No. 4BK and Dead Coyote are contenders for top spots for me. The HD-BB load looks real good out to 40 yards or so too. I had high hopes for the HD-T load, but it just never came together for me. I'm leaning heavily toward the Dead Coyote for the increased penetration at longer ranges. But, I think I may need to tweak the choke...
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 09:42 AM

Yep the DC will be my primary in terrain that allows 50 plus yard shots, backed up by 3" 4 buck. Some areas I call the old standard 2 3/4 shell will still do the trick.

I think it would be smart if Remington lowered their prices some if they want to compete with hevishot. I won't pay their prices when I can buy something that is cheaper and does better or just as well as their product.

I think the hevishot B's or 2's are not out of the running either, as their prices are way lower than the DC or HD stuff.

I agree the HD BB load looked good on your tests.

I think you should break open the piggy bank and buy at least one Carlsons choke, since it will fit both your Benelli's.

I'd be real surprised if it didn't do as good or better than the chokes you have now... And their only $30.
Posted by: sleddogg

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 11:39 AM

GC thanks for kicking off a great thread! Thanks to all the other knowledgeable shotgunners as well.

Massachusetts has just increased the legal shot size to 243 (number 4 buck) for coyotes, so I've been reading alot on shotguns.

This thread has good real world groups, loads and chokes and how they work together. Helps a perspective shotgunner (me) to at least make a good first attempt at getting in the ballpark.

I'm a rifle guy, so this post is most helpful to getting a handle on whats REALLY going on in the shotgun world.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 12:13 PM

GC, We have shot several hundred pounds of Hevi Shot at Canada geese over the years, almost all of it in handloads. Using browning and winchester guns (Slightly overbore compared to yours) we have been able to get 55% patterns in a 30" circle at 100yds. And this is not internet hype. One thing we learned in our testing is that Tungsten tended to pattern very inconsistantly with vented choke tubes. We settled on a patternmaster .695. This is quite less choke than you are using. Our loads use Ballistic Products TPS wads, Hard felt fillers, a mylar shot wrap, and buffer. They have all been 3-1/2" 12ga, and 1-3/4 to 1-7/8oz of the overpriced shot in a Federal hull. Guess the point of this is try an extended, non-ported tube in the constriction you're having the best results with. You just may find that you lose some flyers, and the pattern is more consistant from shot to shot.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 03:24 PM

Cat Slayer,
I'm listening... with a couple of things for us to ponder. Aren't Patternmaster's also ported/vented chokes? The ports on the Kick's chokes mostly serve to strip the shotcup from the shot. Just as the internal bumps in the Patternmaster choke does. Supposedly, the angled ports of the Kick's chokes also serve to keep escaping gases from colliding with the rear of the exiting shot so that doesn't disrupt the shot at a very critical time/place. Can you expand on your thoughts as to why a non-ported choke would pattern better than a ported one, and, how is it that the ported Patternmaster is the choke you settled on as best in your testing, given your advise above? I am not being a smart aleck, I am sincerely interested in your reply. Maybe a non-ported Carlson's choke would give better results. I need to know the constriction though. I might try a Teague Choke. They are a long extended non-ported British choke that has a tapered constriction. I like the thought of the taper constriction, and, the Brit's do know a thing or two about shotgunning.

The difference between wingshooting and predator calling is that just like a turkey hunter, we want a more center dense pattern, rather than an evenly distributed pattern for catching flying critters with a few pellets. We need to concentrate many shot into a narrow cone to perforate the relatively small vitals of a coyote. Again, just like a turkey hunter concentrating on a gobblers head/neck. 30" circles do us little good other than to verify the pattern is on point of aim.

One thing many will overlook is that the .680" choke from the tight Benelli barrel isn't as constricting as it would be in other makers barrels as they are larger internal diameters than the Benelli barrels. Especially so the overbored barrels of some makers. Screw the same choke onto an overbored barrel and you have a much more abrupt constriction for the shot load. Usually Benelli barrels require a slight bit more choke (tighter) to get similar pattern results to other makers.

And BTW, I still am not satisfied with my long range results and plan to tinker with choke constrictions. That's the fun of it...
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 04:03 PM

GC The tubes we have are slick as a baby's butt inside with no dimples. Maybe they're an older style. I always loved Kick's chokes for steel shot. Patterned great. Less muzzle jump. Not with tungsten. We have a company here in Arkansas called Angle Port (Ballistic Specialties). They're in Batesville. Played with their chokes both ported and unported. Same thing, ported chokes did thicken the center somewhat more than unported. However, shot to shot was terrible. Patterns were never round, and would have holes... Reminds me of when we used to use lead and too much velocity for the hardness would "Blow the pattern". Yes, you will get less central thickening w/o the vents. I'm pretty sure of this. However, I'll bet the pellet count in the inner circle will be much more consistant, and probably higher. One thing's for sure, in my guns the whole pattern has been smaller and rounder. You should be getting about 80% in a 30" circle at 60yds with the right choke. That will kill anything, duck, goose, turkey, or coyote. If you can't with an unvented tube, send me a pm, I'll turn you on to some unbelieveable handloads... You might have to buy a 3-1/2" gun though...
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 04:45 PM

Edit:
I have served my one month "ban", and I'll gladly take my permanent ban whenever dictator Redfrog is ready. Thank you.

Wise up boys and girls. Redfrog needs to be kicked to the curb.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 06:09 PM

No, none of that. Slick inside with about 1/2" // section. Maybe I have brands mixed up, but I don't think so. I have several. I had a sp10 for awhile, sold it. If you've gone the BP route with TPS wads, mythick, mix47, etc. My best suggestion is to call the guys in batesville or Briley. You can send them the gun, some handloads, and some green stuff. They can lengthen the forcing cone, and make a tube to fit the barrel. tell them what you want. They will make a tube that starts bore size, and is overly choked. Then they will pattern it, ream a little, pattern, ream a little etc.
I've had best results with Hevi-Shot around 1300fps. The only powder to use is "Steel"
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 06:12 PM

You guys really got me scratchin' my head. Going home to look and see what brand tube is in the durn thing.....
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 06:17 PM

Edit:
I have served my one month "ban", and I'll gladly take my permanent ban whenever dictator Redfrog is ready. Thank you.

Wise up boys and girls. Redfrog needs to be kicked to the curb.
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 06:18 PM

Edit:
I have served my one month "ban", and I'll gladly take my permanent ban whenever dictator Redfrog is ready. Thank you.

Wise up boys and girls. Redfrog needs to be kicked to the curb.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/18/07 09:56 PM

Cat Slayer,
Every PatternMaster I've ever seen had the dimples inside. You also said something about the choke being .695" and I've never seen or heard of a PatternMaster that tight. Check that choke and let us know what you've got.

Joel,
Fifty yards isn't a "gimme" is it? It can be done, and more, with just the right combination. I'm thinking of 3" .12 gauges now. Most of us aren't lucky enough to just fall into that without some real work involved. Lot's of "blue sky" stories about long distance 70, and even 80 - 100+ yard shotgunning floating around. There is a problem obtaining decent patterns at those ranges, plus the consideration of pellet energy and penetration. Coyotes are tough little buggers. Shotguns don't make for great blood trails on thick furred critters, and, soft feet don't much for tracks in a lot of thick cover country. It's a shame newbie predator shotgunners have to wade through all that stuff and find out the hard way that 70+ yards for the typical rig off the shelf is out of the question. The good news is that it is pretty easy to get a solid 40 yard rig without too much trouble. My dad and I were reviewing our shotgun shots from the last several years and I think 40 yards, maybe a bit less, is about the average shot distance for us. I've had some closer, a few that were too close and required a tight hold so as not to miss. Some farther, with a few over the 50 yard line. Some of them you have to give another dose or two of lead before they figure out they're shot and should give up the ghost. Shot angles certainly have something to do with that, as well as distance. Head on isn't a great angle, going straight away is a terrible angle - especially at longish ranges.
Posted by: Byron South

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 01:03 AM

GC,

I just got through reading this entire thread and think you pretty well summed it up in your last post. I agree that 50 yards is not a gimme, and to find a combination that will reliably do it sometimes takes a lot of effort/chokes/ and ammunition, even then some luck mixed in don't hurt. On any shotgunned coyote I always plan on giving him another dose or two, especially on the longer shots. I would say my average shotgunned coyote is less than 40 yards and don't need a second shot but over 40 they sometimes do and experience has taught me that when in doubt give him some more. I've even been known to cut the distance a few yards before giving him another.

On deciding between the heavy weig
Posted by: Byron South

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 09:36 AM

GC,

I just got through reading this entire thread and think you pretty well summed it up in your last post. I agree that 50 yards is not a gimme, and to find a combination that will reliably do it sometimes takes a lot of effort/chokes/ and ammunition, even then some luck mixed in don't hurt. On any shotgunned coyote I always plan on giving him another dose or two, especially on the longer shots. I would say my average shotgunned coyote is less than 40 yards and don't need a second shot but over 40 they sometimes do and experience has taught me that when in doubt give him some more. I've even been known to cut the distance a few yards before giving him another.

On deciding between the heavy weights and lead I will always go with the heavy weights for the extra energy as well as hardness. They just flat out penetrate and break bones better. I've killed lots of coyotes and a few cats with the DC and a couple with the HD stuff and it just flat crushes bones and penetrates better than anything I've ever used. It is more expensive but worth the extra cost to me. With guys like you putting in the work and narrowing down what works the best it will save us all a bunch of money narrowing down our best combinations to try for ourselves.

I plan on testing the Remington HD more in the next few weeks when I get more chokes and my shotgun. I did however cut open a DC load and a HD load to see what the difference was, if any. Here are a couple of pictures of what I saw. It’s apparent that the HD stuff is slicker looking and is slightly more uniform. Not sure how they are made but the Remington stuff is not as brittle as the DC. Not sure whether or not it makes a difference or not but I was unable to break the Remington shot with pliers and was easily able to crush the DC stuff. I'd heard rumors that the Remington stuff was softer. I don't think so as I was unable to get a mark on it with considerable effort on the pliers. Keep in mind I'm not saying this makes it more effective on coyotes at all. It's simply just an observation.





Thanks everyone for sharing your results.

Byron
Posted by: CDR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 09:43 AM

I have an original Pattern Master for my 10ga BPS. It was purchased somewhere around 1992-1994?, can't remember exactly when. It does have wad stripping lugs in it. I was never particularly impressed with it's performance with lead shot, but it did pattern the slower (<1350 fps.) large pellet steel shot loads well, though.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 10:15 AM

GC and everyone else, Went home last night and looked. Guess I'm getting old. Choke tube is from Ballistic Specialties. (Angle Port) .695 unported Invector Plus. Guess I shouldn't type from memory without checking the facts. Was advertising for the wrong company. I've got tubes from most everyone. Anyway you guys are all missing the origional suggestion. Try an extended unported choke about .005-.010 tighter than lead full in your gun for Hevi-shot. Make sure it's hardened. I also found (at least in the guns I've played with) that you CAN improve patterns handloading Hevi-Shot over factory just like you can improve groups in a rifle. I was also surprised at the DRAMATIC changes to a pattern you can make with small adjustments. Also, remember all the work I have done has been with the 3-1/2" 12ga, because of differences in wad column I'm more than sure your results will be different. I'm also very confident you can get to 50yds with handloads and some work. You might also have to have some barrel work done, but it is possible. I am also 99.5% sure I could get to 60yds with a 3-1/2" 12ga and some load work.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 10:40 AM

BTW guys Here's some food for thought. A Giant Canada weighs about 15-17 lbs. When we shot them with lead we used BB's. When we started shooting Hevi-Shot thats where we started. Crippled everything over 40 yds. Went to 1's same problem. Went to 2's Magic! 2's will shoot completely through one at 60-70yds with most of the pellets. I've cleaned hundreds of the durn things. Pattern density was the key. Guys, a 15-17lb goose is pretty dense and tough! I think you might be able to drop down a size or two and get your 100% kill at 50yds you're looking for. This stuff penetrates much differently than lead. The extra weight combined with less frontal area makes more difference than you think. I think your answer is BB's or 1's, not T's. to get your 100% kills. I also think in a 3" it will be a handload.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 10:45 AM

Byron, Not sure if the rounder pellets in the rem shells will pattern any better, but the shot string WILL be shorter. Super long shot strings have always been the limiting factor on Hevi-Shot at long range. The stuff strings so bad it will only kill about 1/2 as far on a crossing shot as a straitht away.
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 10:51 AM

Edit:
I have served my one month "ban", and I'll gladly take my permanent ban whenever dictator Redfrog is ready. Thank you.

Wise up boys and girls. Redfrog needs to be kicked to the curb.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 11:00 AM

Joel, Reloading Specialties has a retail outlet called Buck's Run. You can access it from their web site. They have or had every size made. They sell it in 10# bags for about the same price as Ballistic Products sells their plastic jars for. BUT I use Ballistic Products Other components most of the time.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 11:23 AM

Over the years I have killed quite a few coyotes with the 3" Federal Premium 1-7/8 oz of copper coated lead BB's. Now it looks like I will have to switch to lead free ammo in the area I hunt most in California. Since the Remington Wingmaster 3" BB shell has 23 more pellets in it than the HD and DC 3" T loads do I am going to use the Rem HD 3" BB. The Rem HD BB's out penetrate the good old Federal Premium BB's at 40 yards on the 3/4" plywood test by quite a bit. Most of the coyotes I shoot with a shotgun are at 30 yards and less. The only reason I am going to switch completely away from lead loads is because I have to. I am just glad I don't have to shoot steel shot.
Posted by: rkite

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 01:28 PM

Maybe what you guys are really talking about is one of these 300 yard 12 gauges? Mine is 3" 12 gauge over .308.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/combination_shotgun-Rifle/SPR94_specs.asp
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 01:43 PM

No, We are being realistic. I know Heavy 2's will out perform lead BB's. Have several hundred dead geese to prove it. If lead BB's will kill Coyotes reliably at 40 yds, someone please shoot one with heavy 2's and report back. I still think the answer will be 1's, BB's, B's or maybe even 2's for 50yds. I just don't think the pattern density will be there with bigger shot, especially in a 3" gun. I'm keeping my .17Rem and 22-250!
Posted by: TA17rem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/07 02:22 PM

We have one member in our crew that uses a shotgun on running coyotes his go to load is a load of cooper BB's in the chamber backed up with dead-coyote or buckshot in magizine. The BB's break the coyote down at longer shots and then the buckshot finishes them off.
Posted by: yotenaylor

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/20/07 06:02 PM

Cat slayer-
Your smaller is better is right on the nose. Ive never tried the #2's in heavy shot, but the remington 1 3/4 oz single b load has accounted for more than a few coyotes at long range (40+). Its just so darn expensive.

The suggestion kinda spurred me to head to the range this morning- I took the chronograph and 4 loads and shot each one at 50 yards.

Heres what I came up with.
Remington 870 supermag 28 inch barrel, Millet red dot sight.

Winchester 3.5" #4 buck 54 pellets, Mark Drury 1003 .660 choke (Tried it this morning, not too impressed, I like the kick's better, but forgot it at home)
Velocity 1004 fps
5 pellets in a 8 inch circle.
.240 diameter, 20 gr, 790 fps at target, 28 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 140ft/lbs applied to target.

Remington 3.5" Hevishot B 1 3/4 oz (86 pellets), Remington full factory choke tube .708 (had good luck with this one and the improved modified with hevishot.)
Velocity 1259 fps
13 hits 8 inch circle.
.170 diameter, 9.5 gr, 874 fps at target, 16 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 208 ft/lbs applied to the target.

Environmetal Hevishot 2 3/4" 4 shot 1 1/4 ounce, remington full choke tube .708
Velocity 1208 fps
23 hits 8 inch circle
.13 diameter, 3.4 gr,750 fps at target, 4 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 92 ft/lbs applied to target.

Heres the neat one, made two shell this am, absolutely positively will investigate this one further.
Reload Hevishot 3.5" B 1 1/4 oz (56 pellets) Remington .708 full choke tube.
Velocity 1626 fps/1605 fps (fired both shells to be sure of chrono numbers)Fell short of data specs.
14 hits 8 inch circle/13 hits 8 inch circle
.170 diameter 9.5 gr, 965 fps at target, 19 ft/lbs per pellet, total of 266 ft/lbs applied to target.

An 8x8x1/2" plywood square was taped center to the back of each 15x17 cardboard target. All shells except the Environmetal 4 shot penetrated the plywood. It was shot again at 40 yards and penetrated. Im certain that the newer higher velocity shells would net better results.

Anyways, Yes, I agree most guys are using too tight a choke with the nontoxic shot and are suffering from rebound mentioned in the BPI library. And Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that 100 percent 50 yard knock em flat dead patterns are possible- with factory fodder no less. I just dont think that the bigger is better applies. I do not want to rely on the magic one hit kill either ( but I'd gladly take it ), I want dense patterns and I think that some 2 hevishot goose loads would absolutely give those results. I know the single b load does, just ease back on the choke thats all.
Posted by: BoomSplat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/21/07 07:14 PM

GC,

Your post prompted me to get off my arse today and pattern my 870 with some Federal Premium 3" lead BBs. Gun was Rem 870 with the Rem. 21" scoped Rem choke barrel with HS Strut Undertaker extended choke tube, .675. Aim point was adjusted due to gun being sighted in for slugs.



I think this will work for coyotes.

BoomSplat
Posted by: GeorgiaJoe

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/21/07 07:40 PM

I shoot a Mossberg 835 with 3 1/2" Hevi-Shot "Dead Coyote".
A couple years back I tested several and ended up using Trulock TKY .680.


Trulock TKY .680 @ 50yds

Just had to try one of the new Carlson's Dead Coyote choke tubes I've been hearin'/readin' about.
Here's the results at 70yds.(Those are 3" targets. The X's are from other shots. The holes have been highlighted with a sharpie)

Carlson's "Dead Coyote" tube.




Trulock TKY .680

Here are a couple from my first tests.


GAJoe
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/21/07 11:35 PM

Thanks for contributing to the thread BoomSplat and GeorgiaJoe. Joe, your pictures in particular reveal why patterning is so important. The manufacturers make claims of 70 yard performance for that choke and load, however, it just isn't there in those patterns. Maybe some guns can make it happen, however, I've yet to see it. This is a good no BS thread about real results.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/22/07 04:39 PM

Yotenaylor, The 2's we've been getting weigh anywhere from 7.5-8.5grs. Ya know they look like rocks. There are about 130 pellets avg in a 1-7/8 oz load, if my memory serves. There are quite a few less pellets than the charts say. I think its b/c they use ruond pellets to give weights and numbers. All the shot I've ever bought has been somewhat oversized. This is another reason 2's might be better than they look on paper.
Posted by: Quarter Round

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/22/07 07:17 PM

Quote:

This is a good no BS thread about real results.




GC, Have been lurking for the past year and working OT. Good to see your post and results. Hope this prompts members to do more research on their shotguns, chokes, and loads. Good Job!
Posted by: kal52

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/22/07 10:21 PM

I too did some more patterning this weekend here are the results.

All target shot at 40yds through a Dead Coyote tube using my 870 HD


this is 3" #4 buck federal premium


This is 2 3/4" #4 buck federal premium


This is 3" BB hi density Federal Premium


Im not sure what to think really after some of the other patterns here I dont think these are up to snuff. Since I forgot my other chokes 250 miles away I didnt have anything to compare these too at the time.

2 3/4" #4 really patterned well the last time, but has been really inconsistant, though it did well on a porcupine @ 50ish (the only shot i had) that was too close to the yard.
every time I use it, it shoots different, both the 3 and 2 3/4.

I do like the BB and most penetrated the 1/2 plywood at 40yds, found a few stuck in it, which is pretty good.

Does anyone know the constriction of the DC choke?


Just thought Id contribute a little to a really good thread

Thanks again for all the work guys

Dave
Posted by: yotenaylor

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 12:31 AM

Quote:

Yotenaylor, The 2's we've been getting weigh anywhere from 7.5-8.5grs. Ya know they look like rocks. There are about 130 pellets avg in a 1-7/8 oz load, if my memory serves. There are quite a few less pellets than the charts say. I think its b/c they use ruond pellets to give weights and numbers. All the shot I've ever bought has been somewhat oversized. This is another reason 2's might be better than they look on paper.




It would not surprise me at all if 2's would be the ticket. The single B loads Ive used on live coyotes just seems to hit harder than the #4 buck that weighs twice as much. energy levels between the two ( 2's and b's) would not be that different and the potential to "bring the rain" would definately be there adding 30-40 more pellets into the pattern certainly cannot be overlooked.

I know this is going kind of in the other direction than the Dead Coyote T shot, but I think honestly Cat slayer is on to something. We all know that the tungsten alloy pellets are a completely different beast than their lead counterparts, Is Dead Coyote enough for a 50 yard dump- everything Im seeing here leads me to say undoubtedly, but what if the same results, ie dead dog, could be attained thru smaller shot with denser patterns and less recoil?

Right now, Im seriously looking into the 1 1/4 ounce high speed b loads I made saturday, Out of my gun they performed above and beyond what the 1 3/4 ounce loads did at 50 yards. Thats noteworthy right there. Using 2's in that load seems to be a good direction to go. Might just go buy a box of 2's and scavenge the shot and buffer .

Hey, any of you guys read the handloaders article about tungsten shot this month? Seems as though a company in china is producing tungsten shot that is consistant in weight, size and roundness. Fiocci is going to be producing shells using this shot. I wonder how big of shot they will have availible?

I just had an elderly Husband and Wife pass away within 24 hours of each other- Im gonna be quite busy for the next few days, will report back when I can, probly by Saturday.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 11:13 AM

Yotenaylor, PM me and I will send you a handfull of wads and Buffer. I really don't have time to work on this until after deer season. We can't hunt Coyotes at the "Good Places" until after waterfowl season over here. I really think 2's will kill one further than lead BB's. There's a sweet spot here. Experimentation will tell if 1's, 2's, or larger actually is the answer.
James
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 12:09 PM

It's good to see the contributions to the thread and guys getting out there and patterning the guns, chokes, and loads before hitting the woods. That's good for everybody.

I am really liking the looks of the Remington HD-BB loads. I'm thinking that with the right choke combination they might just be the ticket. For those that are dropping down in size, Winchester and especially Federal both have high density loadings of 1 3/8 ounce of single B pellets at a scorching velocity of 1,450 fps. Those might have be worth checking out. I really do not want to drop to less than a BB pellet size, plus I'd like to maintain at least 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1,300 fps. Federal has a load of heavy BB's at 1,450 fps, but only 1 3/8 ounce of shot - fewer pellets. I have contacted Kick's about new choke constriction recommendations for the BB and T-size shot and we'll see what they have to say. If I don't hear from them I think I'll try an extended 2" Rhino .673" with the rear porting. That just might be the ticket, the entire front is unported, it's long, and the constriction might just be the perfect "sweet spot." All I have to do is drop the $100 for the choke and buy more shells...
Posted by: kal52

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 01:19 PM

GC these BB from federal were the ones I was using in my testing this past weekend. They are the High velocity/density loads.



Here is one target shot at 25yds with that same load.



Like I said earlier the penetration seemed pretty good to me at 40yds, I dont really know what your pass/fail is on that, but im going to get some more shells and chokes out this weekend.
Maybe Borrow some phone books from work and see what happens.

Dave
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 01:37 PM

Ok, well that is interesting. That is the Federal load I was speaking of. You shot that at 25 yards using the Dead Coyote choke tube, your target is the same size and scoring rings as the one I used in my testing. If I count correctly you scored 23 hits in what would be the 8" black of my target, 36 hits total in the entire 12" scoring rings.

The Remington HD-BB and Kick's .680" at 25 yards shot 35 in the inner black 8" circle and 47 total overall as a comparison. Good comparison and interesting results. Think you could measure the interior diameter of the choke tube on your gun?
Posted by: kal52

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 04:00 PM

GC I didnt have anything to measure it with so I called Carlson's and they told me that it was a .665.

The Targets I posted were Just a one shot sample, not really enough to make a definitive judgement on how consistant the BB would be, I didnt really have a lot of time, but it does give me something to go by.

This weekend Im going to shoot 3 targets with each load and choke, time/weather permitting.

Dave
Posted by: yotenaylor

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 04:14 PM

Guys- Im beggin ya- try a improved modified or plain old full choke tube for jusst a couple shots.
Posted by: Cat_Slayer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 04:21 PM

yotenaylor, 1+
Glad to see at least one of the 80 million gun owners I don't know personally agree with me ;-
Posted by: crapshoot

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 04:23 PM

I have tried it. I wasn't impressed.
Posted by: R Buker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 04:40 PM

With my 10 gauge, my best patterns with Remington hevi-shot BB's come out of a modified choke. My full choked makes it too spotty.
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 04:52 PM

.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/07 05:08 PM

Hey thanks for making that call. That's considerably tighter than I would have thought. I was thinking it would be .670" - .675". Good info for the thread...

yotenaylor,
I have never had great results from the more open chokes. I'm glad they work for you, I just can't make them pattern really well. This isn't the first pattern testing I've done. Been doing it for years from a variety of shotguns, chokes, and various loads. In my experience, the more open chokes don't hold up at longer ranges. Mind you, I'm talking 3" .12 gauge, not the .10 gauge where you're cramming more shot through the bore. I've owned a .10 gauge before, and shot other ones, just didn't care for it. The weight and balance threw me off. I can imagine the 3 1/2" .12 gauge as being the most finicky to pattern, that's a lot of shot and a small bore (unless overbored barrel) and could lead to all sorts of problems. Anyway, we want to make sure we're all on the same page and communicating. Summary, for my various 2 3/4" and 3" .12 gauges the more open chokes just couldn't strut their stuff out at the same distances as the more heavily constricted chokes. That within reason of course, it is absolutely possible to over choke a load.
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/25/07 09:34 PM

GC you patterns look very poor. I wouldn't hunt with any of them. I'd try some different chokes and loads if I were you. Try win extended range it performs best for me. There b load is a good one. I've only tried 3.5 inch though. I'm using lead now though everything else is to expensive for me.
Posted by: kal52

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/31/07 07:37 PM

Ok did some more testing and here is what I have

These are for Cat Slayer, he was talking about #2, so I got all excited and went out and got a box of the Federal Premium HD 3"

I only have 2 chokes atm that shoot Heavy shot so its minimal. but here they are

this one is with the dead coyote choke(.665) at 40yds



this one is with the H.S. Undertaker Heavy Shot(.675)



Pretty grim results, though im not done, going to bring out some big sheets of Cardboard or paper and see if they are shooting more to the right.

not the best but I thought id post them anyway.

Still have more to come when the candy is all given out or I eat it all B4 the lil gremlins get here!

Dave
Posted by: hotrod3h

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/01/07 10:28 AM

I just note found this thread and found it most interesting. First of all I must say thanks to everyone's hard work in patterning and then making the pictures available for everyone to see. I know too well how hard that is to do. I wish I could see GC's original pictures but all I see are the red x's and can't see them so I'm totally missing out on them.

Just some food for thought here from my experience pattering my shotguns trying to get the most efficient load for turkeys. I was totally anal about it. As everyone has suggested there just aren't any shortcuts. Every shotgun will shoot different just the way they are made. Then you go adding choke combinations and different ammo into the mix can get very confusing. So the only way to get that deadly load is to get out and try it on paper. Then try something different to compare then something else.

Chokes are expensive especially the better extended ones. Kick's has a policy where if you order a choke from them and it doesn't shoot what you want you send it back (your expense) they ship you another one. Say it was too tight then you say I want something .005 more open, etc. Now that's better than dishing out anywhere from $40 on up on a choke and having it not do anything then your stuck with it. They have charts there that give starting points. I called and talked with Charlie Boswell I believe the guy that runs it. He asked what gun I was using and what shot I wanted to use then said this is what I would suggest. As luck would have it first choke was the best but that's another story. Better to have that ability to send it back if needed then to save a dollar in my book.

Another point we're asking alot out of a 12ga to pattern good to that magical 50 yd mark. The difference between 40yds and 50yds is amazing. I know most people on here probably have the 3" models and that's even tougher to some degree. My experience with my shotguns for turkey was that a 3" Rem 11-87 out patterned a 3 1/2" 11-87. The 3" has a 28" barrel and the 3 1/2 has a 23" barrel. I believe there is something to the longer barrel theory. In turkey hunting you always hear stories about the "long tom turkey guns" those are the older model guns with the long barrels. From my experience I tend to believe that. Of course the longer models are not the greatest for carrying through the woods but I do believe there is something to them patterning better.

I'll just throw this out there. 3 1/2 inch 12ga are not 10ga's as much as people want them to be. Me most of all. To get a DEADLY 50 yd + gun I'd start with a 10ga. BUT most don't want a speciality gun like that me included but I said it. I'm going to start patterning my shotguns for a yote load soon. I'll try and keep contributing to this topic. I know it's going to be no fun doing, cost some money, alot of time plus my shoulder will certainly hurt but also know if I want a great longer range shot I need to do it. Lastly I agree that I could probably settle for a 40yd shooting gun and get away with it but I won't. Just on that off chance I need those 10 + magical yards.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/01/07 11:48 AM

Hummm... must be a problem with the picture hosting website. I'll keep an eye on it and see if it corrects itself. If not I guess I'll have to load all that stuff elsewhere and redo the pic's...

Kal52,
Thanks for posting those patterns and hanging with this thread. I agree, they aren't as we'd like them to be.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/01/07 06:32 PM

GC,
I am still shooting the 12 gauge Browning BPS "Game Gun" that takes the standard Invector choke tubes. I have gone thru about a dozen rounds of 3" Dead Coyote fodder in past week or two. My best results so far with the Dead Coyote has been with the Kick's Buck Kicker X-Full which is .690 I.D. This combo looks good to fifty yards, and I haven't tried it any further as of yet. Here is a fifty yard photo.
Posted by: kal52

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/01/07 07:28 PM

I went out and bought some 2 3/4 fed premium BB last weekend also just to see how it compared to the 3" HD that I had already tried. Here they are...

this one is with the Undertaker HS (.675)


This one is with the Dead Coyote (.665)


Just for fun I got these Hastings chokes for really really cheap, they are pretty dang tight but I though for that price what the heck

Hastings .650


and the Hastings .645


when talking about too much choke, I was looking for these to give a good example of that, but the tightest one did the best . although I wont be using it, just thought I would show a comparison of the REALLY tight chokes.

I think im going to go up to at least .680, going to try some of the cabelas chokes, they are a bit cheaper and have a good aray of sizes.

thanks again

Dave
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/01/07 09:41 PM

Rich,
Yes, that does look good. I think that is better than my results.

Kal,
You have become a patterning fool my friend! I'm lovin' it and appreciate the efforts. See, that over choking thing - dang shotguns and chokes and the way loads interact are so stupid fickle it's hard to tell what the heck they're gonna do.

Hey look... my pictures are back! Thank goodness, I really didn't want to repost all those.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/09/07 10:30 AM

Update... Chuck from Kick's chokes generously sent me a new Kick's Gobblin' Thunder .670" to test. As soon as deer season is over this next week I plan on hitting the pattern boards with this new .670" and wring it out. I've got a good feeling about it...
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/09/07 02:33 PM

I will be watching for your results GC, keep this thread going. I am planning on shooting the Remington Wingmaster HD 3" BB's and T shot at some paper and maybe do another penetration test between the HD BB's and the Federal Premium copper coated lead BB's. I will post some pictures when I do it.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/09/07 06:38 PM

Good deal. I will post my results right here on this thread also.
Posted by: hotrod3h

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/09/07 07:27 PM

GC... First of all I can finally see the pics. Nice job and very informative. May I inquire as to the shot you were going to try out of the new Kick's GT choke you got. I e-mailed them and they told me they wouldn't shoot any of the "heavier" shot through it. I accidently shot one shot of Buckshot through mine today. Was in a hurry and forgot to change. At 25yds it was good but I don't need an accident if you know what I mean.

I'm just getting started with my testing and need some more sheels for comparison. I'm going to try and get some pictures up soon. I'm by no means happy with my first test loads. I think they would kill a yote at 50 but not sold. It was Federal #04 buckshot.
Posted by: ackleyman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/09/07 09:37 PM

I have patterned a lot of custom and factory loads in various shot guns.

For goodness sakes guys, pattern your shot guns at 40 and 50 yards!

25 yard patterns don't tell you jack Sxxt! Most of the coyotes that I have shot with a shot gun have been 30-60 yards with only a small percentage in the 20-25 yard range.

If you are a shot gunner, then by all means get a Brownell's catalog, try some differnt chokes.

I have found the tightest patterns in my 1100 and 11/87 with the Hastings turkey choke. 20" patterns at 40 yards are common, and with this choke 15" with 000 buck, not that I would EVER use ooo buck on yote, foxes, or bobcats....just not enough pellets.
Posted by: Pack_Wolf

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/09/07 09:46 PM

Are there any problems using # 4 buck with a full choke?
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/10/07 08:51 PM

I went out today and shot some more coyote loads at paper and shot at three catalogs taped together for a penetration test. I have always liked the Federal Premium 3" 1-7/8 oz of copper coated BB's for shooting coyotes, they have worked great at 40 yards and less. The Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote and the Remington Wingmaster HD out perform the Federal Premium BB's by a long ways on paper and for penetration.

The Federal Premium lead 1-7/8 oz of BB load I counted had 98 pellets in it. Only 57 pellets hit the 22" X 28" paper and 15 pellets hit in the 12" circle at 40 yards.

The Remington Wingmaster HD 3" BB load I counted had 73 pellets in it. The HD BB load put 62 pellets on the 22" X 28" paper and 32 pellets in the 12" circle at 40 yards.

The Remington Wingmaster HD T shot Predator load has around 50 pellets in it? The HD 3" T load put 45 pellets on the 22" X 28" paper and 23 pellets in the 12" circle at 40 yards. All of these loads were shot through a Rem 11-87 with a Carlson's Dead Coyote Choke in it. Now for the penetration test. I taped three catalogs together, the first catalog had 355 pages in it and the second catalog had 600 pages in it.

The copper coated lead BB's from the Federal Premium shells were found between pages 89 and 127 of the first catalog, they were all torn up. Most of the Rem HD BB's were found between the first and second catalog, 355 pages. Three of the HD BB's were found at pages 27, 44 and 62 of the second catalog. The Rem HD T shot was found between the first and second catalog "355 pages" and as far as 230 pages deep into the second catalog. The Rem HD pellets looked brand new and round after digging them out of the catalogs.

I got my a$$ chewed out for using my wife's china plate in the pellets picture.
Don't forget about the $15.00 cash back offer per box from Remington for the HD loads through January of 2008!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/10/07 10:10 PM

Bob,
That is some good stuff, thanks for doing that! Those Remington HD-BB's look mighty impressive to me and I have high hopes for them. Those should be the cat's a$$ on called predators... literally. I gotta get this deer season done before I head back to the range. I killed a nice doe on a bonus tag today and am on the lookout for a respectable buck through this next week and next weekend. At any rate, good job again and thanks for the pictures.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/10/07 10:28 PM

GC, I was very impressed with the Rem HD BB's penetrating 228 to 290 pages more than the Federal Premium lead copper coated BB's did at 40 yards. The deepest penetrating Rem HD T pellet went through a total of 585 pages or 458 pages deeper than the Federal copper coated lead BB's did.
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/11/07 02:04 AM

Good info there Bob.
Posted by: MB2

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/11/07 05:17 PM

OK, we need some more input for Remington 870 shooters. Here's my addition. 870 Express, 26" barrel, 3" chamber. This is using a Cabelas (for Hevi-Shot)Turkey Super Full tube (.665)
This is with Remington Magnum 4BK. (41 pellet load) 8 hits on the 8 inch circle, 37 on the cardboard.

And here's with the best coyote load available, so what if it costs 3 bucks a pop. It's aptly named. 17 hits on the 8" circle, 55 on the cardboard.



My gun shoots high. I held the pin at the bottom of the circle on both shots, and they still are about 3-4 inches high. So it shoots about 7-8 inches high.
I'm loving the Dead Coyote load, look at how dense that pattern is. I will try both at 50 yards sometime this week.
Does anyone know how many pellets are in a 3" DC load? I know 4 pellets on the #4 buck are missing but I don't know how many are missing on the DC load. I'm guessing a few went over the cardboard.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/12/07 01:31 AM

50 pellets of T-shot in the Dead Coyote .12 ga. 3" loading.
Posted by: yotenaylor

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/12/07 09:38 AM

Quote:

Bob,
Those should be the cat's a$$ on called predators... literally.




Its really lookin that way isnt it? I honestly think this can and does open the door for a lot of things.
Posted by: CDR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/12/07 10:00 AM

It may not pattern as well as it does through a slightly more open choke, is all. You never really know how it will do until you try it.

And, patterning a shotgun at 20 or 25 yards, says virtually nothing about how well it will do at the longer ranges. It is normal to get tight patterns at the short ranges, but only a very few choke/lead load combinations can hold the shot together to be effective at 50 or 60 yards.

The guys using Hevishot, or similar products have a lot more leeway insofar as what chokes they can use and still get dense long range patterns, but if you may take a shot at 50 yards, or further, you need to shoot a few patterns at that range to see how dense or how thin your patterns may be at the longer range.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/12/07 12:52 PM

Randy,
Thanks, but there are a lot of good contributions to that thread. The penetration test of Bob's is a great example of that. The old saying "Two heads are better than one..." is in play on the shotgun thread with good contributions from a bunch of guys. Hopefully we'll see some real definitive results and be able to arrive at some solid conclusions as we keep the thread alive with ongoing and up to date info.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/12/07 09:50 PM

Quote:

BTW guys Here's some food for thought. A Giant Canada weighs about 15-17 lbs. When we shot them with lead we used BB's. When we started shooting Hevi-Shot thats where we started. Crippled everything over 40 yds. Went to 1's same problem. Went to 2's Magic! 2's will shoot completely through one at 60-70yds with most of the pellets. I've cleaned hundreds of the durn things. Pattern density was the key. Guys, a 15-17lb goose is pretty dense and tough! I think you might be able to drop down a size or two and get your 100% kill at 50yds you're looking for. This stuff penetrates much differently than lead. The extra weight combined with less frontal area makes more difference than you think. I think your answer is BB's or 1's, not T's. to get your 100% kills. I also think in a 3" it will be a handload.



Cat_Slayer, after doing the penetration tests on the catalogs with the Remington Wingmaster HD BB 3" loads and reading your posts again, I am going to have to try some of the Rem HD's in #2's. I use to hunt geese quite a bit back in the 70's and 80's and I was very impressed with the Federal Premium 3" copper coated lead BB's. The Rem HD BB's make my old favorite lead load look pretty bad. The heavier, harder and faster pellets that stay round when they hit something are great penetraters.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/17/07 04:07 PM

Look what 2&3/4" Federal #4 Buck does with the Buck Kicker at 40 yards.
Posted by: chuckhunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/17/07 06:57 PM

Rich,

That is one great pattern. What is the ID of that choke tube and what gun are you using it in? I would like to get #4 Buck to pattern like that. Let us all know. Thanks.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/17/07 10:44 PM

chuckhunter,
My shotgun is a Browning BPS "Game Gun" with 23" barrel, iron sights and takes the standard "Invector" tubes. The choke is a Kicks "Buckicker X-full" which is a .690 I.D.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 11/18/07 07:00 PM

That is a good pattern Rich. Thanks for sharing that.

Chuckhunter, one thing to remember is that different firearms may require different internal diameters based on the interior dimensions of the makers barrels. As an example, because Benelli barrels are tighter bore than Remington, an X-Full BuckKicker for Benelli is .680". That will provide the same constriction of the shot for the Benelli as Rich's .690 does for his Remington. Kick's has a chart on their website with interior dimensions and if you e-mail Chuck @ Kick's he is a super helpful resource and will give you solid info.
Posted by: Flyrod1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/25/07 03:58 AM

BTT
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/25/07 08:06 AM

Here is a 50 yard pattern of 3" Remington H.H. BB fodder thru a Comp-n-Choke .685 tube.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/cronkcalls/CompnChoke.jpg
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/25/07 09:49 AM

Rich, that looks pretty good to me for 50 yards, and those Rem HD BB's are penetrating 3 times farther than lead BB's.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/25/07 11:14 AM

derbyacresbob,
Yes, I think my search is over as far as choke tubes and ammo. I don't really want to get the pattern much tighter. I,m sorta concerned about blowing big holes in 15 yard coyotes. My old eyes are having problems seeing the iron sights too. Since I want to try some night calling over snow, I mounted a scope on the Browning this morning. It is an old 4x Bushnell ScopeChief with post and crosshair.
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/25/07 12:17 PM

Good pattern tests Rich, looks real good, especially the 50 yard plate with 20 hits from the Rem HD BB.

I have not tested the Remington hevishot #2's on paper, but in the field that are working very well on fur out two 35 yards. Haven't shot beyond that yet.

Have not had a runner with hits from this load.

Bob, I hope you do try the 2's too, you might like them and they are cheaper than the DC loads.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/26/07 10:27 PM

Quote:

I have not tested the Remington hevishot #2's on paper, but in the field that are working very well on fur out two 35 yards. Haven't shot beyond that yet.

Have not had a runner with hits from this load.

Bob, I hope you do try the 2's too, you might like them and they are cheaper than the DC loads.




Quote:

We had a couple come to the call, but out of shotgun range, two that winded us, a couple misses. A couple we hit but just didn't want to die right there....




That second quote is from an earlier post of yours about one of your recent calling days in which you mentioned the Hevi 2's. Could you be more specific about that last sentence and the performance of the Hevi 2's? I don't think I'm understanding something...
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/27/07 10:10 PM

A update is in order. I now have a Kick's Gobblin' Thunder in .670" thanks to Chuck from Kick's Chokes. Can't say enough about how well I have been treated by the Kick's company - superb product and better service! Anyway, I grabbed a chance to head to the range today with some Remington HD-BB's, 3" .12 gauge.

I shot both Benelli's with the same .670" GT at 25, 40, and 50 yards and the HD-BB's. This load has been extremely consistent in patterning and I've shot a bunch of it at paper this year! Unfortunately, the target backers were soaked and as soon as I placed the same Outers targets on and stapled them, they soaked right through with water. I made my counts while the targets were stapled flat to the backer and when I pulled them off to bring home for pic's they pretty much shredded. Bummer because this time I had some pretty fair patterns to show off!

Using the same procedure as in my original post, the Outers target has a black inner circle of 8" and scoring rings the largest of which reaches out to 12". At 25 yards (and all the ranges) I shot 5 targets with the Tactical/.670" HD-BB and 5 with the Turkey Model/.670" HD-BB combo. In the other testing I felt the 24" barrel of the Turkey Model Benelli slightly outshot the shorter 18 1/2" Tactical Benelli. Not this time, the Tac Model outshot the longer barreled Turkey brother with the .670" GT.

25 yard patterns gave me a saturated 8" circle with from 37 - 40 hits. The outer 12" rings all contained 55 - 62 strikes. It was obvious the Gobblin' Thunder .670" was shooting a very center dense pattern. Both guns shot right to point of aim with the choke and HD-BB load. It was a pretty impressive looking 25 yard performance.

40 yard performance went like this. The inner 8" took 25 - 30 hits. The 12" total count average 35 strikes.

The long range 50 yard patterns still held 10 - 12 pellet strikes in the inner black 8" circle. The outer 12" scoring rings contained 18 - 20 strikes. Now we're talking a pattern and load that can easily get it done at the half field mark. Ok, I'm broke... Now I need to shoot some fur! And boy am I ready...
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/27/07 10:30 PM

Hey moderator, could you make a "Sticky" out of this thread please? There are a lot of questions these days about chokes for High density shot.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/27/07 10:33 PM

I have mounted a 4x Bushnell ScopeChief on my Browning BPS, and I have a .675 Comp-n-Choke on the way right now. We will soon see if old GC is still King of the coyote shotgun.
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/27/07 10:39 PM

GC regarding your quote from one of my posts.

I've killed one bobcat and 2 coyotes with the hevishot #2's this last month.

I do not load #2's on every stand, just the really dense brush, where the shot will be at 30 yards or so.

One shot was at 25 yards on the cat, just dropped in its tracks.

One coyote was at 35 yards and the other at 30 yards both dropped in their tracks.

The two coyotes I refer too that ran off were running shots at 45 yards with 3" 4 buck. They spun when hit, dropped and got up and ran into the thick cover before I could get a follow up shot.

Hope this clears the confusion..
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/27/07 10:41 PM

Bring it on Rich! On a serious note, that is the great thing about this thread, all the quality contributions made by the good folks here. This thread dispels some of the myths, offers solid and honest info, and gets people pointed in the right direction. The patterning, choke selections, load info, and the penetration test information is all top notch info with good pictures for reference, and, never before gathered in one spot. Good idea, maybe it should be made a "sticky" as a good resource and reference for PM members.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/27/07 10:53 PM

Good job GC! This is a great post. Too much money and pain went into this pattern information to just let it go away.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/28/07 10:40 AM

"Good job GC! This is a great post. Too much money and pain went into this pattern information to just let it go away."
-------------------------------
Right on derby! I may have to take out a loan pretty soon.
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/28/07 12:04 PM

Killed 3 more coyotes, 1 fox, and shot a nice big coon outta a tree yesterday with #5 turkey loads. All head shots between 20-30 yards except for the coon cause I was a ways from his tree and he was up a ways probably over 50 yards all dead right there. Really starting to like them. Going to buy a bunch of my favorite turkey load(fiocchi turkey thunder) now while the price is still reasonable since they work so good on coyotes, foxes, coons, and of course turkeys.
Posted by: CRITRGETR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/07 12:14 PM

Thanks GC for an awesome thread. Lots of valuable info!
I just ordered a Kicks Choke for my Rem. Can't wait to do some testing of my own.
CTR
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/07 02:17 PM

CTR,
Well the credit gets spread around among a whole bunch of folks. What constriction Kick's did you get and what load do you think you'll be trying?
Posted by: CRITRGETR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/07 05:14 PM

I ordered the BuckKicker XFull .690 for #1 & #4 buckshot.

After looking at Rich's pie plate with #4 buck, I had to give it a try. I may end up going a little tighter at .670 but I'm using this in tight cover so I wanted to step up the shot size.

I will try #2's (already have a box) #1 & #4 buck to start

CTR
Posted by: Red Dot

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/03/07 05:50 PM

This might be of some interest to some one thinking about cutting off a long barrel shotgun to make a handy coyote gitter.
My hunting pardner has a Savage 24F over & under, 22 hornet / 12 ga., well he wanted it to be shortened up as it was barrel heavy and bulky.
I cut it down to a 19" barrel. Recrowned it and silver soldered it together. The 22 Hornet shoots as good as ever.
Here are the results of the patterning using BB & #4 Buck in an open bore.

Here is a photo of the gun after being cut off.


Here is a photo of the BB @ 37 yds.




Here is a photo of Winchester #4 Buck, you will notice no hits., a big big hole on the pattern.



I think the BB's will kill a coyote easily out to about
35 yds. and he will have the 22 Hornet for longer shots.
He has other shotguns and rifles, but this was something he thought would work on close in coyotes.

The funny thing about the #4 Buck is that shooting them in my Beretta Xtrema 2 with factory full choke they work great, but not in this creation..
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/03/07 10:12 PM

Perfect example of why we pattern BEFORE we go hunting! Thanks for sharing that. Imagine if your friend didn't pattern, then geting a coyote trotting in at 35 yards, a sure range, and then cutting loose a shot of that 4BK load! He would shake his head and wonder "how in the world did I miss that coyote?"
Posted by: Jonathan

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/03/07 11:45 PM

Red dot
I am shooting an Extrema 2 with kick off and I was just wondering if you have tried any aftermarket chokes in it
I have and I did not like the results of any of them
so far I used the kiks high flyer in steel mod,full and x full
with about 10 different loads and I like my mod beretta beter
then all as for turkey I have a undertaker (ported) turkey choke and it is marginal at best,compared to the fatory full
....as a side not these chokes also fit the benelli SBE and they work wonderfully in them?!?!?!?! oh well my bud got a great deal on 4 chokes!

I am still wanting an extended choke for yotes and another for waterfowl! just wondering if you had any imput!

........Jonathan.........
Posted by: Red Dot

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/04/07 03:36 PM

Jonathan,
All I hunt is Predators and I haven't felt like I needed to try any after market choke tubes, I am having super results with the Beretta full choke, using Federal 3" mag BB.
I have patterned #4 Buck, and 3" Dead Coyote with good results, but I prefer the Federal 3" Mag. BB.
I love this Xtrema 2 shotgun



Posted by: rkite

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/04/07 09:48 PM

You need a larger pattern sheet than a paper plate to see what is really going on. The 4 buck is probably shooting high. With my gun Federal Premium 4 buck shoots over a foot high at 35 yards but Remington Express 4 buck patterns are right on. Federal BBs shoot good as well. All through a .670 turkey tube.
Posted by: Red Dot

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/04/07 11:32 PM

Paper plate was on a 24" square Butcher paper on plywood.
Hits all around paper plate. Should have taken photo of the butcher paper. This was with an open bore/no choke. Hard to imagine that it would scatter like that, but it did.
Posted by: rkite

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/05/07 12:11 AM

I had the same problem with open chokes and buck shot. The tighter the choke I tried the better the buck shot pattern in my gun. BBs seem to be a bit more forgiving and worked well in Full, X-Full and the turkey choke.
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/06/07 08:07 AM

Red Dot that Savage looks awsome all cut down..... Great looking brush gun....

Amazing the 4 buck didn't do anything for you.

Would it be a worthwhile adventure to put screw in chokes in the Savage???
Posted by: richards

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/06/07 12:24 PM

hey red dot what kind of sight is that on your extrema, and how do you like it? thanks
Posted by: Red Dot

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/06/07 08:04 PM

Dogboy,
I checked with my smith today and It would cost more than the shotgun is worth to thread it for a choke, he would have to send it to California to a firm Called Bratleys. It shoots good enough with BB's to kill a coyote.
Jerry
Posted by: Red Dot

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/06/07 08:19 PM

richards,
The sight is a JPoint 8 MOA with the JPoint Guard installed on an Arredondo shotgun base.
I really like this Red Dot setup, its quick, only weights about an ounce and a half, not bulky.

Link:
http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1004,2008&PID=fe15k3941nzihn&GID=JDSM

http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPOINT8

ARE WE GETTING OFF TOPIC?

Jerry
Posted by: bbell

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/07/07 02:36 PM

ok here is a twist to this. What about a 20 gauge? Maybe not enough pellets but still good killing power? Just wonder cause I have one set up for turkeys that could maybe work for yotes. Just throwing it out there. Let me know what you guys think.

Brandon
Posted by: kal52

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/07/07 06:39 PM

I am by far no expert on this, but I dont see why it wouldnt.

if you still get a good pattern at whatever range you choose to limit yourself to.

I say go for it if its what you have.

Dave
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/07/07 09:58 PM

Serious coyote medicine are the .12 and .10 gauges. With that said, I just bought my wife a little 870 Youth .20 gauge and intend to do some work with it. The .20 gauges don't have much shot and there aren't many loads available for them that are really well suited to predators. A quick look the other night at a catalog showed some Hevi-Shot 3" .20 gauge #2's that might make a passable load within 30-35 yards.
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/08/07 01:02 AM

I used #3BK a couple of times out of the 20 (2 3/4")and it done just fine at around 30 yds. Not sure if Rem. makes these any more or not.
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/08/07 01:48 AM

3 inch load of number 3 buck may be your best option or Heavier than lead load of 2's made for waterfowl.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/08/07 09:59 AM

About 5 years ago I reloaded some 20 ga 2-3/4" 1 oz loads of lead BBB. I reloaded these shells for kids to shoot at coyotes. The only coyote that I have seen shot with these loads died on the spot but he was only 25 yards away.
Posted by: bbell

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/08/07 11:00 AM

Yeah I was looking at that hevi shot stuff for the 20. I have a double barrel twelve gauge with a double bead on it. The double bead would probably work to aim with right? Not quite scope or open sights, but close.
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/08/07 12:47 PM

I might hafta start handloading. 3.5 inch BBB's of nickel plated lead would be nice for alot of things. 2.5 ounce turkey loads would be kinda cool too but nitros are to pricey for me.
Posted by: Nahuatl

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/09/07 12:56 PM

I wonder if the wad is part of the problem you see with the Remington ammo? It makes me re-think buying a flat while the rebate is going on. Maybe the BB is better than T ????

With an O/U sometimes one barrel patterns well with one choke and ammo, and the other barrel with a completely different combo.

GC, thanks for getting ahead of the curve with the tungsten tests.
Posted by: Bearcat 74

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/09/07 01:24 PM

No pictures but I shot some today with my 870. I shot Federal 3" Copper BB 1 7/8oz, Remington 870 21" barrel and I had 3 chokes, Kick's .660, Kick's .665, and a Hastings bored to .687 with wad catchers. I figured the Hastings would be the winner with larger shot as it is awesome from my other 870, but it I use it as a turkey gun and I just wanted to mess with this gun. The .687 @ 41yds put 10-14 pellets on a 12x12 square, not good. The Kick's .660 put 9-11 pellets on the 12x12 square @ 41yds, so that one is out. The winner is the Kick's .665 @ 41yds it was consistently 20-26 pellets on the 12x12 square, it was a little windy. The 6" center square had between 6-9 pellets in it also with the Kick's .665.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/09/07 02:24 PM

Nahuatl,
I couldn't get the Remington HD-T shot to pattern for me in either gun with any of the three choke constrictions. It just would not shoot well for me. Conversly, the Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote T's patterned very well and was a close runner up to the HD-BB's for me. I'm sticking with the HD-BB because I think it is heavy enough for good penetration, hard enough for bone, it is fast, patterns well, is easy on barrels and seems to be choke friendly, and has a lot of decently sized pellets for a fuller pattern. Seems to be a pretty good compromise.
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/11/07 12:02 PM

Quote:

Serious coyote medicine are the .12 and .10 gauges. With that said, I just bought my wife a little 870 Youth .20 gauge and intend to do some work with it. The .20 gauges don't have much shot and there aren't many loads available for them that are really well suited to predators. A quick look the other night at a catalog showed some Hevi-Shot 3" .20 gauge #2's that might make a passable load within 30-35 yards.




GC my brother in law is shooting the Winchester High Density 3" #2's out of his 20 guage, that stuff patterns well and is real deadly on coyotes. 1400 fps too!!! 102 pellets I think..

Much better that the 3 buck stuff....
Posted by: JeremyKS

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/15/07 11:54 AM

GC,
Maybe Im looking at the wrong load but the HD BBs I found for sale cost more than the DC. Did I look at the wrong load or is that right?
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/15/07 02:26 PM

Jeremy your right the HD stuff is more expensive than the DC. Terrible isn't it...
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/15/07 02:38 PM

The Remington HD is more costly than the Dead Coyote intially. However, there is a really good rebate running through January for $15.00 per 10 rd. box back to you. That brings the cost down to a much more reasonable figure. I'm stockpiling right now...
Posted by: JeremyKS

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/15/07 06:05 PM

GC where are you buying your HD from right now?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 12/15/07 07:02 PM

MidwayUSA...
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/18/07 07:24 PM

Nice thread

To go with it.

I would appreciate thoughts on various shot size used for coyote & fox with the assumption it patterns well. Pros & Cons of killpower at various ranges, penetration, etc. etc. Most of this has been on no 4 Buck and Tee shot. 00 is easy to find locally for many, thoughts? Locally many Coyotes are taken with Turkey loads while calling Turkey in the woods, thoughts........and everything in-between (ex. 0s through Turkey).

4s,2s,Bees,Tees,4b,1b,0bs,etc.

Thanks
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/20/07 10:41 AM

I'll take a shot at it (no pun intended). The large buckshot like 00 Buck has too few pellets and leaves gaps in the pattern that a coyote can literally walk through at longish ranges. Or worse yet, you just poke a hole or two somewhere... maybe in the paunch, or jaw, or who knowns where and the coyote runs off wounded. Some guys rely on what I call the "Magic Pellet Theory" in which they hope for a single lucky strike from one of the big balls to somehow hit a vital area. It's a poor plan indeed, as luck makes for a poor partner and will more than likely lead to lost coyotes. At close ranges where the pattern has held together the large buckshot can absolutely flatten a coyote - but no better than a more versatile load of mid-range shot like BB/T/No. 4BK. At long ranges the large buck is a real handicap because of the low number of pellets. Large buck such as 00 Buck really has little to offer a coyote hunter.

The smaller shot lacks anchoring power much beyond 30 yards or so. Coyotes are tough - period. Coyotes can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. They also have thick fur which soaks up blood. Little pellets make little holes which don't leak much fluid. Coyotes have soft feet and do not cut the ground with tracks that are easy to follow like a hard hooved animal like a deer. All this adds up to lost animals unless the ranges are short to low mid-range with the small shot sizes. I've shot somewhere around a dozen with turkey loads and they ALL RAN OFF! I found most of them with some tough tracking jobs and a heaping measure of luck on my side. None were much under 100 yards, some over twice that distance. That is too far to look for one in the thick cover we normally use a shotgun in. Wounded coyotes will crawl into logs and under rock overhangs and creek banks ect. You will loose coyotes this way. If I were restricted to shot size under BB, then I would select the absolute largest shot size allowed by law and shoot the fastest load of "denser than lead" stuff like Hevi-Shot or Remington HD. AND, I would restrict the range of the shot to where I could reliably get at least a dozen of those smaller pellets within a 6" circle at point of aim in the center of the pattern. Think no more than 35 yards to at the very most 40 yards even with such a great pattern and at least 3" .12 ga magnums.

There's a good reason most experienced coyote hunters think of shot sizes from BB, T-shot, and No. 4BK for coyotes... Because these are the absolute best combinations of pellet count, hole punching size, energy retention, and penetration, for reliably anchoring coyotes. They are a reliable and historically proven recipe when combinined with a proven choke for shotgun coyote hunting. Why look elsewhere? After all, this is the end result we seek...
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/21/07 08:26 AM

I've had complete opposite results with turkey loads as GC I have shot around 30 with turkey loads and seen several more shot and they all get knocked right over from a head shot from a dense pattern of number 5's Even past 40 yards. I have had 2 runners from body shots but fast second shots stopped that. There are so many coyote killed with turkey loads each spring they are just as proven on coyote as any other load maybe more so. With that said the bigger shot sizes such as number 4 buck will break a coyote down and stop a runner or a less than perfect shot angle much more. I don't think turkey loads should be used by everyone. I call my coyote in very close in very thick cover much thicker than the woods GC is in the above pic. I have to hunt different areas then normal to try and get 40+ yard shots. I got in from calling about 30 min. ago I called in one coyote in some thick cattails to about 15 yards one shot to the face from some nickel 5's and he was dead. Called another in to about the same range in some tall marsh grass and cane with the same results. I don't like hunting open areas. Even here in the farmland I find thick stuff to call in most times.
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/21/07 10:39 AM

Again very informative thread. Thanks all.

I appreciate the replys on shot choice.

Rem 870 - I mentioned the Turkey loads because a whole lot of Coyotes are shot here by Turkey hunters and some much more avid than myself at calling coyotes also use such in the thick brush.

On the other hand the groups of avid coyote hunters locally that run dogs, I have spoke with, often use 00 Buckshot in the shotguners hand.

I have been patterning no. 4 buck again myself. I dont own a modern Turkey shotgun with xx full chokes. I did pattern from standard modified and full .695 fixed chokes on my home range.

What I found was the common un-plated no 4 buck easily found in local shops patterned much better through the modfied choke. The premium plated which I had to mail order patterned better out of the full choke. The .695 full did not like any of the un-plated commonly found no4 Buck.

For myself I prefered the modified choke with common un-plated no 4 Buck. That particular gun fits, points and impacts where pointed very well for me. Its a older Winchester Model 12 that has special meaning. I also prefered the what I think will be the more common 25 yard shot at moving games pattern. If I come accross a set, more open than ideal for the shotgun and dont have my rifle in which I feel there will be time to aim rather than point at somewhat stationary game. I will put some 1oz Super X or Fed rifled slugs in the old Model 12. From a rest I can cut clovers at 50 yards and from standing off hand non supported put slug after slug into a 8 inch kill zone at 50 yards. I think the 1oz slug should do the job on the 50 yard + shotguned coyote if its that open

BTW- For those interested. Of the un-plated #4 buck tested in my guns. The Federal Powershock, followed by the Rem. Express followed in a distant third by the Win. Super X patterned the best for me. And the 2.75 inch no 4s were were easy on the shoulder from the M-12........even enjoyable to shoot. If you have a old Ithaca coontail,Rem 870,Winchester M-12 with a modified choke sitting in the case, as many do, and want to take her for a spin. Try some un-plated number 4 Buck and maybe throw some some slugs in your pocket in case you stumble into a open area you want to call while taking her out for a spin.

Very nice to see some shotgun talk here. The AR-15 may well be "Americas Rifle" but the old 12 gauge is surely Americas Gun.
Posted by: ruger300

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/30/07 12:43 AM

Well GC, my many thanks for this informative thread. Got myself a carlson's dead coyote choke for my mossberg 835. Mounted a cabela's pine ridge 2x green dot scope on it and patterned some win 3.5" #4buck. At 40yds I dialed it in for 9 lethal hits in a 6" circle at 40yds. I figured that was sufficient and would stay to that range for maximum damage. Well this afternoon I hauled the scattergun out as my hunting partner had his .204 for any long shots. As it worked out I called in my first red fox and anchored him at 45 yds with the shotgun.

Again thanks for all the info this topic has given me and killing my first called in redfox with the 12 gauge has made that event even more memorable.

ruger300
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/07 03:10 PM

Hey Ruger congrat's, that is a beauty! There are some very good, solid contributions to the thread and I appreciate them all. I'm glad the info is helpful. I used my Benelli M1 Tac Model, Kick's .670", and Remington HD-BB's to take these two gray fox and this coyote yesterday. The combination worked perfectly and the shot on the coyote was long, through brush, and he was killed "DRT." I'll post their pic's here and a link to the hunt story also.



The hunt story...
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...page=0#52706559
Posted by: yotehunter74

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/08 07:17 PM

GC, I thank you for all the work you have put out to bring us all this information... and to those who have added on to it. I have a question... I am using a mossberg 835 tactical turkey with the 18"brl ... it is my new calling gun as I wanted something shorter than a 28" brl which was my other gun... I would like to know what you would think would be a good starting point... i have the xxfull xfactor tube they give you, a modified, and a full. i would buy whatever shot will work best... i have been using 3" #2's for fox and have had great luck with it. but i would like to find a good longer range yote shell... i had been using 00 buck and a modified tube.. it will work but want better range and groups... any help would be great as i can't afford to go and buy boxes of shells that "might" work... if I have to get a new choke tube thats fine as well.. just need some advice
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/08 11:34 PM

Well... You are the third person to ask me this today! Makes me a little uncomfortable. Fellows, I make no claims about being an expert. I learn everytime I pull the trigger, just like ya'll do. If something I stumble across helps someone else or prompts someone to do some shooting of their own and/or share an experience we all benefit.

With that said... about all anyone can do is give you a starting point. You will have to shoot some patterns and there aren't any guarantees. Consider your Mossberg barrel is overbored so you probably shouldn't choose too tight a choke, otherwise you'll risk the "donut pattern" in which you get an empty center and a ring of shot scattered around the point of aim. I would start my search for a good choke with something around the .680" constriction. I'd suggest a Kick's BuckKicker X-Full. The really cool thing about the Kick's chokes is if it doesn't shoot the way you want, Chuck at Kick's will work with you and swap chokes until you get something you like. That's a lot less expensive than having a drawer full of chokes you can't use. You can e-mail him and he is usually pretty close to spot on with his advise about constrictions for various shot sizes, ect.

As for loads, I'm really liking the HD-BB load. Lot's of very hard, round, fast pellets that penetrate extremely well and seem forgiving of choking and want to pattern well. There is a rebate currently going on in which you can get $15.00 back on a ten count box, so that softens the sting some. Is that helpful?
Posted by: yotehunter74

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/08 11:42 PM

VERY... I know no one has all the answers... even others with the same gun will have different results... but you have done more here to get people interested in just how their shotgun patterns than I have seen ... I thank you for leading me to Kicks tubes... I will check into them and give Chuck a call... I just wanted a starting point... I dont mind spending the money with a place to go.. but just running shells through 10 tubes with 40 different sizes and shot to me is unacceptable... I am really looking forward to seeing what happens and will keep you posted... with pics as it goes on...
Posted by: mkeller72

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/08 07:38 AM

I bought a box of remington hd 3" bb, hd 3" #2, box of federal premium copper plated bb, and winchester 3 1/2" 4 buck to do some patterning with when the wind lays, I will post the results.
Has anyone had better patterns from 3" 4 buck compared to 3 1/2" 4 buck, just curious.
Posted by: Mainiac

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/08 11:05 AM

Sorry no pictures.

Mossberg 500 turkey model 24" barrel with aimpoint sight and .675 HS Strut Undertaker choke tube. Target was a regular 8.5" x 11" piece of paper with a 5" diameter circle in the middle. Target was placed on a 2' x 2' piece of cardboard and tacked to a 4' x4' piece of 3/4" plywood. All shooting was at 40 yds from a bench.

Ammo was hevi Shot 3" 1 1/2 ounce of B shot at 1350fps.

I took five shots and averaged the hits in the 5" circle and the hits on the 8.5" x 11" paper.

Results = 5"circle= 17 hits
8.5" x 11" paper= 33 hits

The shot easily penetrated the plywood backing and you could see pieces of it being blown out onto the snow after every shot.

I know some of you think B size shot is to small but I really like the patterns I got and I do think that it will get the job done.
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/08 11:59 AM

Quote Mainiac:
"The shot easily penetrated the plywood backing and you could see pieces of it being blown out onto the snow after every shot."


Now that is good penetration I would say, to go thru the 3/4" plywood.
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/08 12:33 PM

Quote:

GC these BB from federal were the ones I was using in my testing this past weekend. They are the High velocity/density loads.



Here is one target shot at 25yds with that same load.



Like I said earlier the penetration seemed pretty good to me at 40yds, I dont really know what your pass/fail is on that, but im going to get some more shells and chokes out this weekend.
Maybe Borrow some phone books from work and see what happens.

Dave




I just patterned that Federal BB load in 3.5" and was not impressed. It has a differant wad better for those seeking Homkers/wing shooting. Pricey, lack of penetration @ 40 yards. Its HD but still slightly less than lead. Hot load at 1450 fps to much recoil from my 7.5-8 pound gun.
I used a fixed full @ .695"
Finally broke down and ordered some Fed. Prem. 3" 4 buck this am (not available locally) to test along w) a Decelerator recoil pad. Noted while ordering from Midway the Winchester Supreme #4 Buck load that so many reported as excellant has been discontinued. They likey want us to buy there much more expensive new HD Coyote load now
I would like to see the profit margin to the manufacture on the H.D. loads ........likely pretty fat.
Posted by: CDR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/09/08 11:37 AM

For the 10ga. fans, here's some pics. of patterns I shot with a .705" Terror choke and my BPS10, using buffered lead shot and a load from Ballistic Products using a BP10 wad, with 3 slits. They are all shot at 40 yards and the circle is 30" in diameter.





Posted by: mgaines

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/10/08 06:41 PM

I patterned my 835 Mossberg yesterday evening. I was shooting at 40yds with 3.5" unplated #4 buck. I tried factory IC, Mod., full (.730), a Cabelas full (.727) and an extra full (.695). The cabelas (.727) patterned the best at 40 yards. The tighter extra-full was terrible compared to the full. It seems that most of you guys with the posts previous to mine had better luck with very tight chokes when shooting #4 buck. Do you think mine was a fluke or has anyone else had a similar experience?
Posted by: Lungbuster

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/10/08 09:17 PM

mgaines,
If you have some, try the exact same thing again the next time you shoot but try the 3" instead. The few mossbergs that I have shot like 3" better than the 3.5"
Posted by: ACBCS

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/21/08 09:47 PM

WOW these are the kinda posts that I like to find! Kinda makes me wish I had one of those cushy office jobs and lots of time to sit around all day and read more of these. Thanks to everyone for all their input, and fieldwork....Not that sending rounds downrange is ever WORK!
Posted by: hntnnut

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/22/08 08:44 PM

Lots of very good information, thanks to all. I've got one question though, why didn't you include the mini 14 in the pattern tests????


Richard
Posted by: SX2_KILLER

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/08 06:06 PM

hello all.. first post on this forum, just wanted to ad my appreciation for the topic at hand. great to see that there are people out there that are willing to spend the time and money to pattern their guns.

I plan to add a little bit of data sometime within the next few weeks, once my choke comes in.. (ordering the Kicks Buckkicker in .690 for my sx2. I plan to test it with 3.5" #4, 3.5" dead coyote T's and the 3.5" Rem HD BB's. at 40 and 50 yards. I plan to test this in comparison to my NEF 10ga 24in with screw in x-full choke.. hopefully i will be able to find the bb's and t's for the 10ga.

with the same barrel length in both guns im pretty excited to see the results.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/08 08:34 PM

So are we! I just put in an order for some left over newsprint bundles to do some more penetration test with some of this stuff this summer. A contact with the local newspaper is going to get me some tightly wrapped bundles of newspapers that are about 16" thick and should be perfect for testing penetration. I love this stuff!
Posted by: Dogone

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/25/08 07:48 PM


From some recent testing
Gun - Mossberg 9200 12 ga.(bore .732)
Load - Rem 3" HD 1 1/2oz. BB's
Range - 40 yds
Turkey Choke - .665 (.067 constriction) - 3 hits in 10" circle.
Full Choke - .701 (.031 constriction) - 17 hits in 10"

I was amazed at the ineffectiveness of the turkey choke with this load. It points out that there is more work to be done to find the sweet spot in constriction. Maybe it's Mod, or maybe it's .040???? Never know until you test.

I'd done some of this work several years ago. That data may be lost now, but the bulk of it was done with Federal 3" 1 7/8 oz loads in BB's and 2's.
Posted by: Dogone

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/25/08 07:52 PM

Sorry for the additional post.... (rookie move)... anyway the Federal loads in the same Mossberg were not affected by choke very much. The turkey choke shoots the Federal best, but not by much over the full, and mod... At the very best it is a 40 yard combination, and I prefer the 2's as I'm mostly shooting fox at night.....If I can find the data, I will post it later.
Posted by: nevjohn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/08 01:39 PM

Best price I've found sofar for Rem HD BB's and DC "T" loads have been at Midsouth Shooters. I just wish I had more money to buy more...
Posted by: nevjohn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/30/08 05:28 PM

Finally got out to the range this morning to pattern my recently bought (6 mos ago) Mossberg 835 Turkey 12ga. This shotgun has a 20 inch barrel and will accept 3-1/2 inch loads. It uses a fiberoptic sight.



Loads were Dead Coyote 2-3/4 inch "T" and Federal 3 inch plated "00" shot.

Chokes used were the Carlson "Dead Coyote" .660 and the Mossberg X-Factor Turkey .695 that came with the gun.

I set my target board out 40 yards and used a sandbag rest. The target board was made of 3/4 inch plywood, using a PVC homemade base.

First patterning target was using the Mossberg choke and using 1 round of each type of ammo. As shown in the picture, the black dots are of the DC load, and the squares are of the 00 load.



Second patterning target was using the Carlson DC choke, with 1 round each. Dead Coyote "T" load is shown in squares, with black dots as the 00 load.



I am interested in just what you fellow shotgunners think of these patterns? Being this is my first time using a shotgun for predators, and am interested in your comments. Someday soon, I will try and pattern some #4B and some BB loads.

John
Posted by: SX2_KILLER

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/30/08 07:35 PM

can anyone tell me the barrel id for the sx2?? its an over-bored barrel but im not sure what the bore is. I might be testing the gobbling thunder instead of the buckkicker.

the more of this i read, the more things i want to try...

im now thinking that ill find the best pattern between the kicks/carlsons/winchester x-full choke. After the best pattern is determine ill compare it to the 10ga..
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/08 10:16 AM

Quote:

Sorry for the additional post.... (rookie move)... anyway the Federal loads in the same Mossberg were not affected by choke very much. The turkey choke shoots the Federal best, but not by much over the full, and mod... At the very best it is a 40 yard combination, and I prefer the 2's as I'm mostly shooting fox at night.....If I can find the data, I will post it later.




"and I prefer the 2's as I'm mostly shooting fox "

Yea..........me to at least to date.

Update- Patterned more through my .695" full choke gun and the ol' Model 12 Mod. choke This thread has been fun but costly (chuckle). I have also now patterned through brush with varoius from 4 buck to 4 shot Turkey as I hunt brush and prefer the #2 shot from the M-12 / Mod. In particular the Remington Nitro #2 (hard shot/buffered/1250 fps range/1.5oz) Like you here in upstate NY I mostly see Fox.
I still need to pattern the Federal lead BB's though. Very impressed with the Rem. Nitro #2's.........give them a try/pattern for Fox

Also put the ol Lyman Peep/Ghost ring sight back on the M-12 (prior use slugs)and was impressed while patterning and for quick target location.

Here it is on the Model 12
Model 12 w) peep / ghost ring sight


What have I learned to date from this fine thread? Pattern,pattern,pattern Really no ryme or reason from what I see and have done.

For myself, fox few coyote and my terrain. Model 12 w) peep/ghost it hits where it points,handles well,swings great and patterns well. If calling brush slip in some #2 Nitros, bit open #4 buck (maybe BB's still not patterned), happen to set up in more open hedge row,field edge and have left the rifle in the truck. Slip in some slugs (day only NY) or go back for the rifle. I will keep all three loads in my fanny pack for various terrain sets w) the smoothbore ......."be prepared"
Posted by: Doubleclutch

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/08 06:13 AM

nevjohn: I grew up in NW FL hunting deer with hounds and shotguns only. In and around the Eglin Air Force Base. This was before 3" shells. I have shot and seen many deer shot with 4b-00 and seen the "autopsys" on many. You have killed your coyote with all of your shots shown. With a shotgun though it is more unpredictable how fast they will go down and stay. I to have been trying to decide which load to use in a 3" Benelli. My turkey tube dosen't work with larger shot. My Carlson Dead Coyote tube seems to be ok to about 50 yds max with 3" 4b. and 2.75" bb ok to 35yds max. Around here I will have to order shells. Becouse of high prices I have been reading posts to help me decide what to order and try. I appreciate everyones work and expense behind the data here.
Posted by: Yotecallr

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/08 11:03 AM

Remington has a new rebate on HD shot starting Feb 1st thru April 30th, $15 rebate on 10 round purchase. This is an excellent thread BTW. I'm going to try Dead Coyote 3" from a Patternmaster tomorrow, that seems like a good combo correct ?
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/08 09:34 PM

I just ordered some 3" Hevi-Shot "B" loads because I wanted to compare them to the 3" Remington Wingmaster HD BB loads. I was thinking that the 1-1/2 oz Hevi-Shot "B" load would have more pellets in it than the 3" Rem HD 1-1/2 oz BB load. I got the shells delivered today so I opened up a 3" Hevi-Shot 1-1/2 oz "B" load and did not like the looks of the shot or the total pellet count. I have counted the pellets in two Rem HD 1-1/2 oz shells and one of them had 73 pellets and the other one had 74 pellets. The Hevi-Shot 3" "B" load had 73 pellets, this was not what I was hoping for. I knew that in the past Hevi-Shot was very inconsistent in size and shape. I thought they had improved the quality of the shot but they have not. The sizes of the pellets in the Hevi-Shot "B" load look like they very from #4's to T's and some of them are stuck together. The Rem HD BB's are very round and are very close to being the same size. In this picture the ugly dark pellets are the Hevi-Shot and the copper colored pellets are the Rem HD BB's.
Posted by: nevjohn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/08 04:42 PM

Bob.... that Hevi-Shot is some "ugly" shot !! Geez for the price we pay for that stuff, you'd think the QC would be abit better than Wolf ammo...
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/08 06:52 PM

Quote:

Bob.... that Hevi-Shot is some "ugly" shot !! Geez for the price we pay for that stuff, you'd think the QC would be abit better than Wolf ammo...




I really like how the Rem HD performs but I am not sure if it is going to be legal in the Condor Zone. If I spend anymore big bucks for Hevi-Shot I will buy the Dead Coyote "T" shot.
Posted by: nevjohn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/08 10:06 PM

Isnt the Rem HD made from Tungsten? I thought it was, or maybe I am mistaken; which isnt hard for me.
Posted by: Thebear_78

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/13/08 08:16 PM

Took all the advice and checked out that dead coyote shot. Worked like a charm on two yotes, 45 and the other 65 paces away. I was very impressed.
Posted by: ADCcoyote

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/23/08 02:03 PM

The Dead coyote T is very uniform as it is made from compressed powder, the b's and other heavy shot are molten metal, they couldn't get the T' to form well so they made them out of compressed metal powder and you get way better uniform pellets!
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/25/08 09:47 AM

Quote:

I have an original Pattern Master for my 10ga BPS. It was purchased somewhere around 1992-1994?, can't remember exactly when. It does have wad stripping lugs in it. I was never particularly impressed with it's performance with lead shot, but it did pattern the slower (<1350 fps.) large pellet steel shot loads well, though.





I have 3 Browning 10 Guages and have just sent my second patternmaster back to the company. I bought a patternmaster that aged back to yours that my fatory choke tubes could out shoot. Patternmaster replaced it with an updated designed one a couple of years back that even patterned worse. I was told by their tech support recently that they produce their own 12 guage tubes and have a separate manufacturer that produces their 10 guage tubes. The person who made the gauge tubes past on and his son has been producing them with poor results. I sent my second one back in the last couple of weeks and asked for an exchange for a 12 gauge tube for my Beretta after I saw my buddy shoot a 3 1/2" Dead coyote pattern at 45 yards out of his Benelli that his his coyote target 37 times!
Posted by: Foxy_Gunner

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 02/28/08 12:37 AM

Why would anyone want to use a tactical shotgun for predators? I think they look cool, but they really don't belong in the hunting world. If you're going to use a shotgun you need the most shot, and max distance.

Turkey guns in 3 1/2 make the most sense, and for me the gun has to be a pump. Now, I am not saying an auto shotgun isn't the cat's meow, but for me I need to use the ultra reliable pump. I live in Alska in very heavy cover and when you're hunting at -40 F (without windchill) you need to be sure the gun is going to do what it was made to do all the time.

I missed a cross fox last week shooting a Remington 870 Super Mag shooting 3 1/2 Heavyshot. The fox was well past what I thought I might hit, but I had to try. My buddy had missed with his .17 and I had to see what this load could do. Obviously it was too far. When you are judging distance in the snow sometimes you think things are closer than what they are. I'll try again Friday...Ohhh and Saturday, and Sunday! Keep calling!
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/01/08 06:01 PM

I went out today and shot at some paper and shot some catalogs to check out some penetration on the different types and sizes of pellets. Here are a few of the pattern pictures.

The first picture is a pattern from 40 yards with a Carlson's Dead Coyote choke using a Federal Premium 2-3/4" number 4 buck load. This load has 34 pellets in it. The only reason I shot the number 4 buckshot load was to check the penetration out. It put 9 total pellets in the 12" circle, one of those was in the center 3.5" circle.

This picture is a Hevi-Shot 3" Goose load with "B" shot in it. This load had 73 pellets in it, 56 of those pellets hit the 18" X 22" paper. The 12" circle had 25 pellets in it, 5 of those pellets were in the 3.5" circle.

This picture is of a Remington Wingmaster HD 3" #2 waterfowl load. This load had 124 pellets in it, 108 of those pellets hit the paper. The 12" circle had 55 pellets in it, with 10 of those pellets being in the 3.5" circle.

Here is a picture of the catalogs I shot into on the penetration test at 40 yards. On the first catalog I shot into, I shot it with a Hevi-Shot "B" load, a Rem HD #2 waterfowl load and a Federal Premium lead copper coated BB load. The first pellet I found at "80 pages" was one of those ugly Hevi-Shot B pellets with two smaller size pellets that were stuck to it. At "page 115" I found 1 Rem HD #2 pellet. I only found two of the lead copper coated BB pellets in the catalog at "pages 211 & 279". The Hevi-Shot B load I found a total of 9 pellets, 7 of those were between page 80 and page 279 and the other 2 B pellets were found at page 359. Of the 25 Rem HD #2 pellets I dug out of the catalog, most of them were between pages 211 and 319. 4 of the #2 HD pellets were between pages 359 and 429. The next catalog I shot was kind of a shocker to me. I shot it with number 4 buckshot, Dead Coyote 3" T shot and Rem HD 3" BB water fowl load. The 4 copper coated lead number 4 buckshot pellets came out of pages 316 to 337. They were all mangled up. I found 7 Dead Coyote T pellets, 1 at page 218, 1 at page 291 and 1 at page 316. There were 3 T Dead Coyote pellets at page 367 and 1 at page 420. Here is the shocker part. I found a total of 10 Rem HD waterfowl BB pellets in the catalog. The first one was at page 290, 3 pellets at page 413, 1 pellet at 465, 2 pellets at 507, 1 pellet at 581 and the deepest pellet was at page 610.

This is a picture of the pellets I removed from the catalogs. The top row is the messed up copper coated lead #4 buckshot. The second row is the Dead-Coyote Hevi-Shot T pellets. The 3rd row is Rem HD BB and on the right are the copper coated lead BB's. The 4th row is the Rem HD #2 waterfowl pellets. The 5th or bottom row is the Hevi-Shot B goose load pellets. So what I got out of this was my old favorite Federal Premium lead copper coated BB's are not near as good as the Rem HD 2's or BB's. I was pretty sure the Dead Coyote T shot would out penetrate the 4 buckshot. The Rem HD BB's out penetrating the number 4 buckshot and the Dead Coyote T loads was a surprise. The Rem HD #2's look to be much better than the Hevi-Shot B goose loads also. The HD 2's out penetrated the Hevi-Shot B pellets and there was 51 more HD number 2's per shell than the Hevi-Shot B load.
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/01/08 06:49 PM

Very good report derbyacresbob - I might have to look into the Rem HD BB load.

Thanks so very much.
Posted by: nevjohn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/01/08 09:19 PM

Thanks for the info, Bob. Interesting on the Goose loads. I picked up some Fed 3" #4B plated a week ago, but havent been out to pattern it on the "doggie board" yet.
Posted by: yotehunter74

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 03/02/08 06:45 AM

Quote:

Why would anyone want to use a tactical shotgun for predators? I think they look cool, but they really don't belong in the hunting world. If you're going to use a shotgun you need the most shot, and max distance.

Turkey guns in 3 1/2 make the most sense, and for me the gun has to be a pump. Now, I am not saying an auto shotgun isn't the cat's meow, but for me I need to use the ultra reliable pump. I live in Alska in very heavy cover and when you're hunting at -40 F (without windchill) you need to be sure the gun is going to do what it was made to do all the time.

I missed a cross fox last week shooting a Remington 870 Super Mag shooting 3 1/2 Heavyshot. The fox was well past what I thought I might hit, but I had to try. My buddy had missed with his .17 and I had to see what this load could do. Obviously it was too far. When you are judging distance in the snow sometimes you think things are closer than what they are. I'll try again Friday...Ohhh and Saturday, and Sunday! Keep calling!




well, as for why you would want to use one since they "don't belong in the hunting world" is because they do the job, and do it well... I hunted fox this year with the mossberg tactical turkey, and we killed over 60 greys... mine has taken coyote out to 52 yards, i usually limit myself to 50 but it was to close to that to tell. Knowing the limitations of your gun is the most important part... I guess you overlooked that when that fox you shot at was "well past what I thought I might hit, but I had to try" I will just keep killing stuff with my tactical gun that dont belong, and you just keep taking the chance on wounding critters with your "hunting gun".

sorry for the rant GC and others who have put so much time into this thread.
Posted by: Rox

Re - 03/03/08 05:01 PM

I am a hunter from Norway, and I have been testing shotgun patterns for the last 4 or 5 years. When lead became illegal in Norway I was one of the first to aquire and test HeviShot in this country.

We dont have coyotes in Norway, but we hunt a small deer named ”Rådyr”, which i belive is a little bit bigger.

We have examined about 18 – 22 deers that have been shot using shotgun, to see how the pellets penetrate the body. We have mesured the distance the deer was shot very carefully, and then shot at the same distance on a dry Norwegian standard phone book. From the results we have made a formel for safly killing a deer, as long as you hit as you should. 15 to 20 pellets within an area of 8” x 12”, with pellets no smaller than US4 penetrating 240 pages. Then about 3 to 6 pellets will be located in the skin on the oppsite side of the deer. With bigger pellets fewer are needed within the target area to be lethal.

We first got Wingmaster to Norway in 2007, and from testshooting it seems like it is harder to get a tight pattern with Wingmaster than with HeviShot, but it seems like Wingmaster penetrates deeper. After looking inside the Wingmaster shells I have found that US nr 6, 4, 2 and BB have no buffer, while T has.

Have anybody tried to open a Wingmaster and put buffer in it, and see how it performs?

I only discovered this forum about ten days ago, but I have been reading with great interest since that.

I hope that you find my results interesting, as I see it as a payback for all the information I have learned from American hunters and companies (trulock and more) the last years. I consider it my pleasure, and hope you find it usefull.


Gun: Browning Gold Hunter cal 12, 740, 3 1/2"
Shell: Wingmaster BB, 3 1/2", 1 3/4 oz, 1300 fps
Choke: Browning Extra Full Turkey, 700
Distance: 60 m / 65,6 yards


Penetration test, same data as above.
The phone book was shot in the backside, and the deepest pellets penetrated to page 613. The book is 1040 pages, so that gives us a penetration of 427 pages.


Gun: Valmet 412 cal 12, 3", 730
Shell: Wingmaster 3", 1 3/8 oz, 2, 1450 fps
Choke: Trulock Sporting Clay Extra Full 690
Distance: 50 m / 54,7 yards


Same data as above.


Same gun, shell and choke as above.
Distance: 40 m / 43,7 yards


Same data as above.

Please forgive my bad english.

Rox
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: Re - 03/03/08 06:19 PM

Hello Rox, that is some good information. On buffering the Remington Wingmaster HD loads, I don't think it would be needed and it may not be safe either. Since the HD patterns so good and the pellets stay round after firing and digging them out of catalogs, why use buffer? I know with heavy lead loads the pressure of the load can go up 1000 psi to 1500 psi just by adding buffer.
Posted by: GC

Re: Re - 03/03/08 08:00 PM

Bob and Rox,
Great penetration info and extremely useful to us. Thanks very much for the work and continuing to contribute to this thread.
Posted by: bobcatspotfever

Re: Re - 03/12/08 12:30 PM

This is a very imformative thread.I have read most and really enjoyed the knowledge being shared.I don't really have much to offer.But..............I just gotta say a thing or two The very best #4 buck I have ever shot was the Remington nickel plated shot.Boy I am sorry they don't make that no more! It performed great for me and was my go to load.Oh I shoot a Benelli M1 field 24" barrel in 3" shells.The Fedearl copper plated shot for me isn't nealy as good.And I am curious about something too.Alot of them Federal loads the buffer material comes pouring out of quite a few shells and I was even given NEW boxes one time and was told by Federal they were aware of problem and got a NEW crimper.Well I still get that stuff outta some shells from federal wheather its #5 shot or whatever.Makes me think if you shoot a shell that lost a bunch the pellets can do funny things also.As a trapper you can also try stuff out on March and summer worthless coyote pelts too.So your all set on paper at say 40 yds with a load,go to your trapped coyote pace off 40 yds and try your load out!!Fedearal copper plated BBs so far seem to really kill coyotes good for me.I haven't tried the new stuff.After reading this I ordered some of those Dead Coyote loads to try em out I have been using mostly a full choke but after seeing GC post I just had to try out a .670 extra full as a combo for turkey and coyotes. The Cabela's chokes like someone mentioned seem the way to go if your poor like me. Bill
Posted by: coyote control

Re: Re - 03/12/08 10:22 PM

Quote:

I just gotta say a thing or two The very best #4 buck I have ever shot was the Remington nickel plated shot.Boy I am sorry they don't make that no more! It performed great for me and was my go to load.Oh I shoot a Benelli M1 field 24" barrel in 3" shells.The Fedearl copper plated shot for me isn't nealy as good. Bill




You know Bill I can say the same thing about what you have said above.
I bought 250 rds of the Rem. Nickel #4 BK and Fed Plated #4BK a few years back. The Nickel BK had a much better pattern than the Fed and Win. shells.
I am glad I bought alot of them!
Posted by: OKRattler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/21/08 03:02 AM

This is an awesome thread.I got into this one since Im usually the one who packs the shotgun when Im calling with a partner.But I was wondering GC,you said that it takes 5 solid hits for reliable kills.Im assuming that is with larger shot sizes.But I was wondering how many hits it would take from smaller shot like #5 shot?I am going to pattern my turkey gun with Hevi Shot #5s and Remington Nitro Turkey #4s and maybe some other brands of turkey loads this week.But I was wondering why it wouldnt be better to kill coyotes and other predators with smaller shot since they seem to pattern better?With smaller shot you would be hitting the coyote in the vitals with alot more pellets when you may only hit him a couple with the larger shot.This was just something I was wondering about and I thought I would ask you guys.Thanks for spending the time and money doing these tests they are really interesting and helpful.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/21/08 10:17 AM

OKRattler, the smaller pellets may not penetrate into the vitals at 40 yards like the bigger pellets do. If you are just shooting at the head and neck at 35 yards and less the smaller shot will work fine. I kill quite a few coyotes every year with a shotgun and at least 30% of them don't give me head and neck shots. With lead loads the smallest pellets I use are BB's, with the Remington HD, 2's are as small as I am going to go for coyotes. The bigger pellet loads will knock down coyotes that are not giving you that perfect shot and they also work great on the perfect head and neck shots. Check out the Remington Wingmaster HD 2's pattern on page 9 of this post. It has bigger pellets and a dense pattern and out penetrates Hevi-Shot "B" pellets.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/21/08 12:41 PM

OKRattler,
As Bob said, it's all about penetration and vital tissue disruption. I'd much prefer 5-8 vital hits with plated lead No. 4BK, or "denser than lead" stuff like Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote T-shot, and/or my personal pick the Remington HD-BB or T-shot - as opposed to twice as many hits from a no. 5 shot from a turkey load. Especially at any ranges over 30 yards.

Little shot just doesn't penetrate as well. It is light and loses energy much faster than larger/heavier shot. A turkey’s skull/neck isn't that hard to crack, so no. #5's works fine for that application. However, a coyote is considerably larger, much heavier boned, furred, and muscled. Additionally, coyotes are a flat out "gritty" animal capable of taking punishment far out of proportion to its size. I don't favor any shot smaller than BB's for coyotes - especially so if you consider taking shots at 40+ yards.

Shot angles must be considered. Head shots are preferred IMHO. Head and neck shots are the most reliable killers with the less fuss than any other IMHO. However, the typical heart/lung shoulder shot sometimes is all that can be had. That requires more of the shot; it has to penetrate fur, muscle, sinew, and bone, to disrupt vital tissue. More weight, velocity, hardness, and size get the job done. A going away shot is the worst possible shot for a shotgunner. Usually unless the coyote is very close, or wounded, this shot should be passed up. In this last case, you will be shooting more than once. A shot in the rear will often cause the coyote’s hind end to drop and the coyote will sling its head around to nip at the rear end. This is what the shotgunner should be waiting for, that head to come around, and then hit it again quickly in the head and maybe you can get the job done with only two shots. Otherwise, look out! The scene will go bad and sounds like the OK Corral gunfight, with a good chance of an escaped and wounded coyote.

I wouldn't choose turkey loads with small shot for a self defense or duty shotgun beyond hallway distances within a house because of the very same reason. Larger buckshot gets the job done at longer distances and through heavier outdoor clothing because of the same principle. Cops and dangerous game hunters that use shotguns for defensive purposes don't use turkey loads...
Posted by: OKRattler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/21/08 02:04 PM

Thanks for the info guys you have been very helpful.When I carry the shotgun I usually have it loaded with Dead Coyote loads but unfortunately I havent got a chance to try them out on a coyote yet.But the reason I asked is because I have only killed 2 bobcats and 1 coyote in my predator hunting career.Two of them were shot with turkey loads and the other was in a trap with a 22.The bobcat I shot was only fifteen yards away with Hevi shot #5 out of a 12 guage and the coyote I shot was from 35 yards with Remington #4 shot at 35 yards with a 20 gauge both were DRT.But I wasnt really lookin for predators when I shot the coyote I was turkey huntin and thats all I had.And I shot the bobcat when i went to check my trap one day and I that was the biggest shot I had at the time.I do hunt with larger shot when Im calling predators but I just wanted to know about the turkey loads since I have alot more of that stuff than the other.Again thanks for answering my question and puttin this tests together.
Posted by: Rox

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/21/08 04:29 PM

Thanks for great work that Bob and GC and all other does,it is very intresting , as I said we have been testing a great deal this last years.We have bouth 16 choketubes from Trulock 665-705 4 Srm Terror 1 Wad Wizard Supreme 2 Mad Max Turkey and Waterfoul 1 Rem hevy shot and 1 Browning extra full.The guns we have testing is Beretta 687,White Onyx and Ulrikka.Benelli SBEII Crio and Supernova.Browning Gold Hunter. Rem 870 .SKB and Valmet 412.It seems that most of the guns perform best with chokes around extra full with pellets from us 2 and bigger, eccept Supernova and Ulrikka they goes best with tighter chokes.The favorite shell have been Rem Hevi Shot us 2 we are very satisfied with that, but no it seem that Wingmaster are better. No I shall be carefully so it not seems like I am an ekspert I am not,but maybee some of you boys use to tight chokes and to big pellets.Try to do like Bob said Wingmaster us 2 or BB and not to tigth chokes , I think that is a winner. Rox.
Posted by: nevjohn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/22/08 01:34 PM

Coyote Pattern Target

13 pages; just cut and tape as numbered then cutout. Transfer this to cardboard for your template. Using a large Sharpie pen, outline this cardboard template onto your patterning paper, as shown in picture.

http://coyotecanada.ca/coyote_template.pdf

Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/01/08 11:27 PM

great work everyone. when gas comes down and im makeing good money i will get some of them hd bb loads, for now i will have to stick to the good ol federal #4 buckshot.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/02/08 11:08 AM

There's nothing wrong with a good patterning load of No. 4BK! You could do a whole bunch worse.
Posted by: Lead_Slinger

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/03/08 09:02 PM

Once again i find myself seeking the help from the pros at pm. This thread was awsome and im glad it's here because frankly, Im at a military school right now and do not have the time to play or money to spend on figuring out a perfect load choke combination for the Benelli SBE II I am going to purchase at the Tulsa gun show this weekend. I am buying this shotgun for upland birds, waterfowel and coyotes. Will be hunting on post where my shots can and will sometimes be 50 yards.
#1 is a 26" barrel suggested?
#2 choke diameter .660 .670 .680? (only for yotes of course)
#3 3 1/2 or 3 shells
#4 Shell recommendation for this setup
GC or anyother with far more shotgun experience in this area please bless me with your knowledge. humbly, grass hopper
Posted by: acorn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/04/08 08:18 AM

#1) I find the 28" bbl real long on benelli's due to loner recievers as compaired to other guns
#2) I have a M-2 that shoots best patterns with factory full dimensioned choke .690, I have a trulock hunter extended tube and factory both shoot better that the real tight chokes with big shot
#3) My personal take on 3.5" shells get a 10 gauge!!!
#4) Hard to beat #4 buck but check regs. first.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/04/08 08:41 AM

On the barrel length 26" or 28" are both good , just get what feels better to you. What ever barrel length you like for bird hunting will work good for predators.

On what choke you want to use, you need to try a few patterns with the shells you are going to use to find out. A mod, imp/mod or a full would be good ones to try.

I agree with acorn on the 3-1/2" shells. The 3-1/2" shells were made for shooting steel loads. The lead and heavier than lead loads in 12ga 3" that are available now are great shells and kick me as hard as I want to be kicked.

For lead loads I prefer the Federal 3" Premium 1-7/8oz of copper coated lead BB's but #4 buckshot is also a great load. The Remington Wingmaster HD and the Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote loads are in a league by them selves as far as performance goes but they are expensive.
Posted by: Dogboy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/04/08 08:56 AM

NevJohn, nice pattern at 40yards.

What a great thread this turned out to be, glad we kept it around.
Posted by: Lead_Slinger

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/04/08 02:04 PM

thanks guys i wrote it all down and will look for those items at the show.
Posted by: CDR

Re: Re - 04/09/08 03:12 PM

I wouldn't try just adding some buffer to those HD shells. Adding buffer can increase pressures by as much as 2000 psi. That means that a new load would have to be worked up, perhaps settling for lower velocities, or a lighter shot charge to work with the buffer.
Posted by: Nahuatl

Re: Re - 04/10/08 01:18 PM

Half my stands will be in the new "no-lead zone" starting July 1. This from Beretta.


"Beretta was advised by Remington Ammunition Division in July of 2004 that the formulation of Hevi-Shot has undergone changes. Remington Ammunition has done independent testing with Beretta shotguns and advise that the tests indicate no damage to the barrels with the use of Hevi-Shot. As with steel shot, it is recommended to use a steel proof (SP) choke tube that is no tighter than Modified."
Posted by: 22cat

Re: Re - 04/18/08 02:22 PM

so Nahuatl does that mean i can shoot hevi-13 and dead coyote and wingmaster bb through my mosseberg x-factor .670 choke that says to shoot lead only through it and it want hurt my choke or is remington just talking about gun barrels.
Posted by: DannyBoy

Re: Re - 04/25/08 02:29 PM

wow this is some really great info! really good work
i've saved up a lot of cash over the years so im thinking im finally going to buy my 1st gun=mossy 500 12ga
after what i've read do you guys think it would make sense to go with the hevi-shot dead coyote choke and team that up with the corresponding shot for coyote and turkey hunting?
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: Re - 04/25/08 08:03 PM

Welcome to Predator Masters DannyBoy! The Carlson's Dead Coyote choke has worked good for me with big pellet coyote loads.
Posted by: GC

Re: Re - 04/26/08 02:48 PM

Danny,
My dad hunts with a Mossberg 500 Camo Turkey Gun and a Hastings .660" choke. He shoots Federal Premium No. 4 Buck for predators and Winchester Supreme Hi-Velocity plated lead #5's for turkeys. He's killed a lot of game over the years with that old shotgun. It does a very solid workman like job in the woods.
Posted by: DannyBoy

Re: Re - 04/26/08 07:29 PM

Quote:

Danny,
My dad hunts with a Mossberg 500 Camo Turkey Gun and a Hastings .660" choke. He shoots Federal Premium No. 4 Buck for predators and Winchester Supreme Hi-Velocity plated lead #5's for turkeys. He's killed a lot of game over the years with that old shotgun. It does a very solid workman like job in the woods.



thanks a lot!
this really helps and by the way your the man for posting all those shot patterns
Posted by: texag93

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/04/08 06:58 PM

New to the forum and came across this topic. GC, I have the same Benelli tactical and my patterns are hitting a foot high at 35yds with any load. Any way to fix this. I am guessing the front sight is silver soldered on? I am thinking taller front sight. ??????
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/08 09:09 AM

Questions / New Scenario

Brush, cover, heavy undergrowth. Be it swamps, hardwoods , thick cottontail rabbit country,etc.


Fox as or more likely than Coyote.

Average shot distance 15-20 yards, 30 yards max. Beyond that because of the brush & undergrowth you likely would only see glimpses.

You may likely stand rather than sit in many of your sets because of the sight advantage point amongst the undercover brush.

The called in predator will likely be on the move for the shot. You may have to swing through the moving predator while squeezing the trigger some of the time.

Most of this thread is about achieving distance of 40 even 50 yards with a shotgun in apparently more open terrain.

What pattern, choke, shot type , barrel, shotgun in general would you look for ideally when calling these brush predators?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/08 09:45 AM

Quote:

Questions / New Scenario

Brush, cover, heavy undergrowth. Be it swamps, hardwoods , thick cottontail rabbit country,etc.


Fox as or more likely than Coyote.

Average shot distance 15-20 yards, 30 yards max. Beyond that because of the brush & undergrowth you likely would only see glimpses.

You may likely stand rather than sit in many of your sets because of the sight advantage point amongst the undercover brush.

The called in predator will likely be on the move for the shot. You may have to swing through the moving predator while squeezing the trigger some of the time.

Most of this thread is about achieving distance of 40 even 50 yards with a shotgun in apparently more open terrain.

What pattern, choke, shot type , barrel, shotgun in general would you look for ideally when calling these brush predators?




Really good question. In that case I would take that short barreled Benelli M1 Tactical Model, screw in a modified choke, and shoot the same Remington HD-BB load. Several loads would work as well most likely. Heavy loads of plated lead #2's, B, BB, or No. Four Buck would work great out to 30 yards in that situation. As would any "denser than lead" stuff like Hevi-Shot and Remington HD in those same sizes. I would use a more open choke to give a larger, more forgiving pattern. My thinking with the HD-BB shot is that the harder, heavier, and large shot may just cut through the brush a little better to reach the target, or, may reach the animal in better undeformed condition. That of course would improve penetration and reliable kills. The short barrel, open sights, and fast shooting semi-auto would be easy to handle, swing, point, and, apply more lead quickly if needed in cover that tight.
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/08 10:58 AM

.
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/19/08 11:12 AM

Brush Gun For Coyote,

Take two......

Just did a little pattern testing from standing off hand, 15-20 paces out back, through some brush. The number 2's & 4's were impressive. Less impressive was the number 4 buck & 00 buck. No BB's on hand but they would likely work also but I doubt they would have anything over on 2's & 4's at close "brush" range os 15-20 paces nor on Fox.

Standard modified choke over full.

24"-28" barrel.

Bead or vent rib site.

It made me re-think some things......

Posted by: 30xs

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/08 10:30 AM

Great thread!!! I have a question as to a starting choke size for a Mossberg 535, for use in the 2-BB size shot? Any insight will be appreciated. I just traded off a Mossberg 500 that with my Hasting choke tube would put 5 pellets inside a 6 inch circle at 50 yards consistantly......boy am I an idiot. I was using cheap Remington 2 3/4 00 Buck 9 pellet load. The 3 inch stuff wouldn't shoot as well. I still have the choke tube so I will try it in the 535, just wanted to know where to start for best patterning on the smaller shot.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/07/08 06:55 PM

I got 7 lbs of "B" Hevi-Shot and a Hevi-Shot reloading manual from Ballistic Products Inc and loaded up some light 12 ga Hevi-Shot loads today. I will have to use non-toxic shot for hunting coyotes after July 1st of this year. I wanted to load up some lower recoil loads than the factory 3" loads so if I get a chance to take some kids or ladies coyote calling I will have some shells for them to shoot. I ended up loading 1-1/8 oz of "B" shot in a Federal Gold Medal 2-3/4" hull. I loaded up three of them and went out and shot them at paper and a telephone book. They shot pretty good through my 11-87 with a Carlson's Dead Coyote choke in it. I counted the pellets in four 1-1/8 oz loads of Hevi-Shot and there was between 54 and 61 pellets in those four loads. I weighed each shot charge and put buffer in these loads.

I shot a paper plate taped to the telephone book at 30 yards and had 22 "B" pellets hit the paper plate.

I shot the same 1-1/8 oz load at 40 yards and had 11 pellets hit the paper plate. I shot a Federal Premium 3" 1-7/8 oz copper coated BB load into the same telephone book as the Hevi-Shot "B" pellets. The Hevi-Shot "B" pellets averaged 842 pages of penetration while the Federal copper coated lead BB's averaged 740 pages of penetration. I reloaded 50 shells today and only tipped one over that was not crimped yet on my loading bench.
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/07/08 09:53 PM

.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/08/08 10:07 AM

Quote:

Good job Bob. That's the shot I load in my 10 gauge. Pretty time-consuming ordeal, isn't it? I enjoy it though.




Joel Hughes, it does take quite a while to load them but I have a good time doing it. I am going to load up the rest of my "B" Hevi-Shot today, I should get right at 100 shells out of that 7 pound bag.
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/21/08 04:25 PM

Gun - circa 1947 Winchester M-12 / Choke - Fixed I.Mod. / Barrel - 28"
Ammo- Fed. Prem. 2 3/4" #4 Buck Mag / 34 shot
Use- Fox,Cotote,H.D.
Shooting positions- 50 yard=prone w) bag, 40 yard = prone w) bag, 35 yard kneeling, 25 yard standing, 7 yard standing

Pic 1 = Range w) 30" NRA Shotgun Targets


Pic 2 = 7 Yard low Left 3 1/2" dia. pattern,standing, point of impact dead on. 25 yard center,standing, 100% pattern, main pattern minus fliers 15" dia.


Pic 3 = 35 yard, 31 of 34 shot, 92%, kneeling pos.


Pic 4 = 40 yard from prone w) bag, 30 of 34 shot, 90%


Pic 5 = 50 yard from prone w) bag, 22 of 34 shot, 65%


Sorry photo quality from cell phone. Hope this helps others.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/21/08 09:59 PM

First, thank you for taking the time to photograph your results and post them here. I know that takes extra effort and time.

One thing regarding the percentages you have listed. A 30" inch circle is the standard for measuring a pattern of small shot for hunting winged or fast moving small game and/or clay targets in the various shotgun target sports. However, it means very little to a predator hunter. It is that 12" at point of aim that is critical.

Isn't it interesting how much difference even five yards makes in a shotgun pattern? Witness your 35 yard target and the 40 yard target. At 35 yards you have a killer gun, choke, load combo. At 40 yards the odds favor the the coyote.

Also, one shot doesn't always tell the tale. I've seen some really odd things with shotshells. In my testing at the beginning of this thread at one time I fired a round and was instantly amazed at the totally saturated target center. I got really hyped about that and was hopeful to see that performance in the next shots. Unfortunately, the first shot was a fluke and after four more targets I could never repeat the first shot performance. Weird stuff happens sometimes...

Good on ya for taking the time to figure all this out before heading afield and squeezing the trigger on live game. Watching a critter run off after the shot, maybe wounded, is not the time to be thinking about stuff like this.
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/22/08 12:34 AM

GC,

The called predators have been "fast moving small game" once with in shotgun range in my terrain. Much more like shooting at a big rabbit than a called Turkey. The standard NRA 30" show the big picture of whats really happening, I can still see the small picture with in it. I prefer to see the big picture.........I like them.

This is a sticky. A little extra time now, beats pulling targets and re-thinking latter.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/22/08 10:15 AM

Bill,
Agreed that a large backing paper reveals important information, such as point of impact as it relates to point of aim, "doughnut" patterning, ect. I guess what I'm trying to point out, not to you because you have a handle on this, but for the reader that is new at shotgunning critters, reading your percentage figures for the complete 30" circle might lead one to believe the gun/choke/shot is performing better than it actually is. I'm looking over the 40 yard target and it says 90%, yet there is only one pellet strike in the center at point of aim. The other pellets look to be far enough away as to maybe not be helpful in the sense that a coyote doesn't have a 30" vital zone. That 12" right at point of aim is the critical measurement IMHO.

Now as you pointed out, if you are "wingshooting" those real fast flyers at close ranges - you have a really good rig for out to as far as 35 yards! And in that situation, 35 yards is a pretty far shot in really dense brush and a wider pattern might be a real asset to you. Again, thanks for sharing your findings, it will be helpful to many and is a good contribution to this thread.
Posted by: bill1227

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/22/08 03:57 PM

GC,

There are two strikes on the bull at 40 & 50 yards. That bull is only 3.5"-4". I should not have shot the 40 & 50 from prone with front bag as I had muzzle jump/hop with my non trigger hand under the receiver rather than on the forend. Think it would have been better yet just from kneeling. I will shoot a couple more before fall and see.

I negative in regards to 12"-15" targets at distance besides not showing the entire pattern is you could catch a clump of the pattern which would may it appear better than it is on that particular shot. Kind of like one 3 shot group with a rifle vs. a 10 shot group. On my 50 yard target I see a "clump" of 5-6 impacts just off the bull that if it happen to catch a 12-15" or paper plate target would look pretty darn good at 50. Problem is it may only do it 1 out of 10 shots.

Everyone has a differant landscape they hunt. I am in the Northeast, its hilly, farm country & hardwoods. During sun up mornings & evenings the Fox like the thick brush, bunny country. They tend to appear quick,make me quick and are gone quick amongst the brush. I really would not want a turkey type gun for this nor pattern for this. The shot opportunities reminds me of hunting rabbits with beagles,with my father when I was a kid. If the area is a bit more open, I take in a rifle.

Overall I must say I have been very impressed with the Winchester Model 12, 2 3/4", 28", i.mod shotgun patterning of varies shot, buck & slugs. It may not do one thing perfect but it does a whole lot of things very well in that set up and it sure hits where it points. Because of this thread I have also had my eye and hands on a few fine Benelli semi auto tactical 12 gauges like yours which actually have screw in chokes for a tactical......They sure are nice,light,ballance well, seem to fit my frame well........tempting. .....I like them a lot.

Off subject- myself and a pal took 6 Woodchucks/Groundhogs this morning with three calibers 17hmr,22 Hornet & 22-250..........fun morning.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/22/08 04:47 PM

Bill,
That Model 12 is a fine shotgun! I began my predator shotgunning with a Remington M870 Wingmaster 2 3/4" chamber .12 ga. with 28" fixed choke Modified barrel. I still have that gun and it is worn slick and silver from the many miles I've packed it. I also have a Browning A5 with the same standard chamber and 28" Modified fixed choke barrel. It is about as silver as the old Remington now to. I wouldn't hesitate to take either one of them shotgunning predators in the brush again in certain situations. They both have "been there - done that." I like those older guns a lot!
Posted by: Alliant381

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/10/08 06:06 AM

Hello all im looking for a 1 3/8oz steel load around 1500-1550fps with Rem or cheddite hull/case primer fed209a/cx2000, powder A steel or Bluedot id prefer bluedot as i have heaps of the stuff
thanks A381
Posted by: pcammo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/17/08 01:40 PM

Here is a load from Precision Reloading:
3.5" Rem Hull
Fed 209A Primer
36.0grs Steel
TUFW1235 + (1) 20GA 3/8" Felt + TS
1 3/8oz Steel Shot
1420fps 13,180PSI

John
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/31/08 01:25 PM

Guys,
I have been testing various choke/load combinations for my new Beretta, Extrema2. I believe that I have found the magic coyote killing formula for this gun. The first photo is a pattern I shot this morning with Remington 3" H.D. BB's. Distance was 50 yards.


Same distance, same choke, with 3" Hevi shot "dead coyote".


Same choke and dead coyote at 60 yards.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/31/08 11:44 PM

Remington has another rebate going on the Remington Wingmaster HD shotgun ammo through January 31, 2009. $15.00 back per box for up to 10 boxes or $150.00 back. So you save $1.50 every time you pull the trigger. All the rebate information is on the Remington web-site.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/01/08 06:41 AM

Hey Rich, good to see you posting. AND, great patterns! Thanks for that information and the pictures. I had to drop to the Kick's .670" to get similar results from my Benelli's. The .680" didn't quite do as well from the tight bores of the Benelli's. But, it worked really well for your Beretta! Benelli's have a tight bore so the difference in constriction when you take into account the tight bore and slightly tighter choke I'm using, versus the more standard bore of your Beretta and slightly more open choke you are using - that does seem to be the magic place doesn't it? I'm really liking the HD-BB load and the rebate makes it a lot easier to digest the price.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/01/08 09:05 AM

GC,
The Benelli's have a nominal .723 bore, while my Beretta has a nominal .733 bore. The .10 bore size difference, does in fact explain why your Benelli would prefer exactly .10 smaller tube than my Beretta does. The more we search for perfection, the more we learn about shotguns.
Posted by: buckhtr

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/08 10:40 AM

forgive me if this question has been answered here but I am still trying to get thru all this post on dialup...........slow.Do you find a lot of shift in patterns as you change loads? If velocity remains about the same and payload also could you use different shot sizes with sililar results in impact ? Also have you ever considered that the patterns you see and report on paper are actually thinner in the field as the patterns are result of a standing target with no movement as you would experence with say a running coyote? Not all pellets arive at the same time at the same point of impact. Hope I haven't hi-jacked this thread..pm if you would like to continue away from here , thanks,

buckhtr
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/08 11:50 AM

The length and time of your shot string really is not that important when you consider the speed that the shot is going compared to the target. At 1250 fps if your shot string is 25 ft long the time between the front pellet and the back pellet would be right at .004 seconds. The shot at 1250 fps is going 851.46 mph. A coyote or bird doing 40 mph is going 58.7 ft per second. The target going 40 mph will move just under 3 inches in .004 seconds. People have said for years that the targets run or fly into the shot string when you swing out in front of the target. It is very difficult for something going 40 mph to run into the side of something going 851 mph. Your actual shot speed and target speed may vary.
Posted by: buckhtr

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/08 11:55 AM

Thanks for that info , thats the kind of stuff I was looking for. Now, what about impact point of patterns, do they shift a lot with different loads?
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/08 12:11 PM

I have never noticed much of a point of impact change with a change in the load that I was shooting. I have heard of the screw in chokes shooting different points of impact through the same barrel. The shot size can make a big difference in how a barrel and choke patterns. A choke barrel combination that shoots a good pattern with 1-1/8 oz of 7-1/2's may shoot a lousy pattern with 1-1/2 oz of 2's.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/08 04:47 PM

I have actually seen some shifting of patterns over the years with various loads from the same barrel and choke. I've noted it in a few rare cases with turkey loads, but more commonly with 00 Buck. The 00 Buck seems to be harder to find a happy place for than smaller shot.
Posted by: buckhtr

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/08 05:07 PM

I wanted to try some of the premium loads but don't want to spend a lot of money to do load developement. Was hopefull of using some of less expensive loads and check placment and then go to the good stuff to hunt with.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/08 05:12 PM

You'll have to bust a few caps on the premium stuff not only for point of aim issues, but certainly for shot density and choke compatibility. Just no way around it that I know of. You can get close by figuring out what gauge, gun, choke, shell size, shot type, and shot size from the info in this long thread. But there just isn't any substituting actual patterning to absolutely know what is going on "out there" from your rig.
Posted by: currahee

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/24/08 02:54 PM

Mossberg 500 youth 20gauge full choke = 30yards

(oldest boy is 10 and this is his gun. 30-40 yards will be his max shots)


Remington 2 3/4" #3buck- 6 hits in the center 6" circle, 15 hits total



Federal 3" HD #2shot- 21 hits center 6" circle, 68 hits total




Think the HD #2 shot is the 30-40 yard load for this gun?
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/24/08 10:43 PM

.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/24/08 11:13 PM

currahee,
Thanks for contributing to the thread! And with .20 ga. info to boot. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to bust a coyote with the Federal #2's at 30 - 35 yards. I wouldn't stretch it beyond that, especially without shooting some patterns first at 40 yards. It is incredible how patterns can fall apart within 10 yards, especially past the 30 - 40 yard line.

Joel,
Thanks for sharing that info for handloaders. There is another offering about to come out with a pellet that sorta looks like a .17 caliber pellet used in an air gun. It is an interesting looking thing, supposedly it patterns better than anything on earth and hits like a Mack Truck... We'll see how that turns out in real application.
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/08 09:03 PM

Beretta 303/26" - Kicks .680.
40 yrds except one as noted.
All 3".
Target - 12"x 12"









Lots better patterns this time then with the Pattern Master!
Posted by: VSF22250

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/29/08 10:48 PM

Today I read that a company called Patternmaster has a choke tube that claim 80yd kill,they are about 90 dollars and they have a 30 day no questions asked return policy i am thinking about buying it and testing it in my SBEII with a 28in barrel. I dont see how I can lose with the return policy.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/30/08 09:07 AM

CC,
Thanks for adding your pictures and results to this thread. That is useful info and appreciated.

VSF,
You lose time, money for the cost of the shells to test with, and return shipping. 80 yard kills is BS... nothing out there is going to give you consistent and reliable 80 yard kills from a .12 gauge or even a .10 gauge shotgun. The chokes and loads available at this time just don't have 80 yard capabilities. Look back through all the patterns in this thread and if you find one that will stretch to 80 yards, you are better than I am, because I can't see it anywhere in here. Patternmaster made its fame with water fowlers. Sky busting geese at 80 yards is often futile and leaves wounded birds flapping off unrecovered. Coyotes are about three to five times bigger than geese and one heck of a bunch tougher. Don’t get caught up in the hype of some of the claims laid out there by a few over zealous companies and people. The choke in question might give decent 40 yard performance, but 80 yards would really be a gift from above.
Posted by: VSF22250

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/07/08 10:44 PM

thanks for info i am new to the shotgunning for coyotes.
Posted by: GeorgiaJoe

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/16/08 05:32 PM

Just got back from the range. Thought I should take shots at different ranges to have an idea if I need to allow for the pattern dropping over distance. On each of these shots I was shooting at the black shoot-n-see dot (about 3/4")and the circle is a 5Gal bucket size. I did the circle after the shot.
Gun is a Mossberg 835 shooting 3.5" Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote
The choke is a Trulock .680
(The pic's are doctored. I was shooting this plastic board where some shot would make the hole and not leave a clearly visible hole when the picture was posted. So I went through each pic' carefully and marked those holes with a black dot.)
15yds:

30yds:

50yds:

The pattern held up well, no need to change my point of aim vertically. I think it should be good to 60yds.

I also learned that just becouse you have a tight pattern with "T" size shot, doesn't mean that #2's will be a tight pattern. Here's Rem. Hevi-Shot #2's:

GAJoe
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/16/08 10:23 PM

Great Joe! Did you pull that 50 yard shot to the left? Or is that where your gun threw it? And I agree, IME change about anything with the choke or load and you need to start all over again on the pattern board.
Posted by: GeorgiaJoe

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/17/08 04:10 AM

That's where the gun put it. If you look close the 30 yd shot is the only one that doesn't "lean" left. Did't remember to take a tiny screwdriver to adjust the windage. Another trip to the range.
GAJoe
Posted by: GeorgiaJoe

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/23/08 07:56 PM

Got back to the range and got my windage adjusted. Also took the Choke tubes that came with the gun(2&BB, T&F, TKY) to see if I could do better with the #2's.
3.5" Rem. Hevi-Shot Nitro Magnum High Vel. Waterfowl Loads @35yds

2&BB


T&F


TKY

GAJoe
Posted by: Greenhorse

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/08 01:48 AM

Oatsayo,
Might seem like a dumb question, But I dont know much about shotguns. Is the longer barrel better when all other things are the same? Ie: chokes, loads, shot size?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/08 02:09 PM

Longer barrels "may" or "may not" pattern slightly better. Probably if we took 100 long barrels and 100 short barrels unaltered from the factory the longer barrels would pattern somewhat better overall. However, there are so many individual differences that you can't just make a blanket statement about such a thing. And there is custom work that can help any barrel such as lengthening and polishing the forcing cone. If that work were to be done to a short barrel that short tube might out perform a longer tube unaltered. I do think there is a happy medium for the needs of a brushy country shotgunner of potentially fast movers like hard charging coyotes. Probably my Benelli Tactical Model 18 ½” barrel is a tad on the short side unless the country is really, really, tight. A longer 28” barrel might be a tad too long to handle as deftly as needed in the thick stuff. So, something around 22” - 26” is a good compromise of handling and patterning. My Benelli Turkey Gun has a 24” barrel and it seems about right to me. My dad has a Mossberg 500 Camo Turkey Gun with a 24” barrel and he likes it a lot for compactness and shoot ability. I’ve used 18 ½”, 20”, 24”, 26”, and 28” lengths in various shotguns for calling predators and if I have my choice I’d probably always choose the 24” first.
Posted by: Greenhorse

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/08 08:06 PM

Thank you Sir.
Posted by: Partagas

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/05/08 01:32 PM


Here is the shotgun. Homemade Recon that I plan to spray down with alumahyde II coyote tan as soon as ups drops the paint off. Dead Coyote choke. All shells are 2 3/4".

Wondering what the constriction is as I have a couple other choke ideas I might try depending on what it is.

35 yard patterns

I shoot this from a seated position and the pattern didn't seem that great plus shifted low and left. May have pulled it. I also shot a round of the #4 Rem buck. In a 10" circle I had 9 pellets of #4 and 7 of the Fed BB.

Heavishot B goose load
11 in 8 1/2" 16 in 12"

Fed BB 17 in 8 1/2" 23 in 12"

#4 buck Remington 10 in 8 1/2" 11 in 12"

45 yards


Fed BB
6 in 8 1/2" and 16 in 12"

Remington #4BK
6 in 8 1/2"
10 in 12"

What do you guys think? I ran a couple test at 35. The first round was very disapointing. Wide patterns shifted left. Then the second round I got better results. Not sure what happened. Then after shooting at 45 I almost seemed to get better results.

Want to try Federal premium #4 buck if i can find it.
Posted by: RecoilSr1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/08 02:35 PM

Good shooting folks!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/08 06:59 PM

It seems your No. Four Buckshot and Federal BB load would carry you to 40 yards if I'm looking at your pictures right. Thanks for posting your results!
Posted by: DeathPenalty

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/08 07:23 PM

I got out and patterned my new 11-87 Premier today with the IC choke that came with it, along with a TruGlo Gobble-Stopper that I picked up from the used counter at Gander Mtn. for $12. I wanted to standardize my load as much as possible for coyote and upland so I settled on Gander Mtn Fiocchi #4s, 2 3/4", 1 1/4 oz. I figure inside 50 yards it'll do the trick with a center mass hit, let alone a head shot.


This is at 25 yards with IC, just to see what it did for me. I printed 50 of the approximately 169 pellets on the paper.


This is the TruGlo at 25 yards. It's a guaranteed DRT at this close range, printing 86 of the 169 pellets. It would have most likely printed better, but either I pulled it low and right, or the choke did.


This is the TruGlo at 50 yards. I think this is the farthest I would attempt a shot, printing only 31 of 169 pellets on paper. It printed low again, so I need to compensate for that in the field.

The new (old) 11-87 went through about a dozen rounds without a hiccup, but that's hardly anything to rave about. I am happy to see that so far it isn't "jam-tastic" like I have heard some 11-87s can be.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/08 07:37 PM

Fifty yards is too far for a 2 ¾” 1 ¼ ounce load of number four shot too reliably and consistently anchor coyotes. You are far too optimistic for your load and results IMHO and experience. You’d best keep the ranges to within that 25 yard distance and head shoot your coyotes. Even then be prepared for quick follow-up shots as I expect you’ll need them based on my experiences with 3” magnum turkey loads. Coyotes are tough and can take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’ and small shot and a few pellet hits won’t impress them immediately. I would urge you to rethink this strategy!
Posted by: DeathPenalty

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/08 07:43 PM

GC, thanks for dragging me back down to reality I guess. I'll pick up some BBs and see how they look sometime next week.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/08 07:47 PM

I had to learn the hard way. Experience can be a hard teacher! Good luck and keep us informed of your progress and successes.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/07/08 10:36 AM

Quote:

GC, thanks for dragging me back down to reality I guess. I'll pick up some BBs and see how they look sometime next week.




I agree with GC on not using #4 birdshot on coyotes. Years ago when I hunted geese I tried 3" copper coated #2's and they did not work very good at all when the coyotes were heading out. I started using Federal Premium 3" copper coated lead BB's and they worked great. Try the lead BB's and Number 4 buck shot.
Posted by: DeathBringer

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/09/08 02:07 PM

Question--
Live in KY, where buckshot isn't allowed, in fact nothing larger than #2 shot. Would like to work up a choke/load for my mossberg. What would you guys suggest? 3.5 Magnum. What would the max range be on a yote?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/09/08 07:44 PM

I see a 3 1/2" .12 gauge load of Wingmaster HD with 1 3/4 ounces of #2's at 1,300 fps. That should knock the snot of them to at least 40 yards properly choked for tight patterns. As for chokes for your overbored Mossberg I'd look at something around .685" - .680" for this load as a good starting point. Something like a Kick's High Flyer X-Full would do an excellent job. Here is a link to the Remington HD shot...

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/wingmaster_HD.asp

And one for the Kick's chokes...

http://www.kicks-ind.com/?poll_id=2&...mp;question_2=7
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/09/08 11:15 PM

High velocity loads of 2's or even 4's in a high density load works fine(I use lead turkey loads alot). Winchester xtended and hevi shot are 2 other options from the rem hd load GC talked about pattern them all see whats best and go shoot some yotes.
Posted by: 30xs

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/08 02:20 PM

Deathbringer didn't say that he was overbored. Maybe he is, but I'm interested in a starting point for my Mossberg 535 3.5". Looking at the Wingmaster #2s, what choke should I start with, or add to my collection?
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/08 05:18 PM

Those Remington Wingmaster HD #2's have so many pellets in them and pattern so good a Modified choke maybe tight enough. This picture is in this post somewhere, it is 3" Rem HD 2's.

This pattern was shot with a Carlson's Dead Coyote Choke at 40 yards. The Rem HD 2's also out penetrated lead copper coated BB's when I shot them into catalogs.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/08 07:39 PM

Good info Bob, thanks for that. One point to remember, the smaller the shot, the more of them is needed to effect a reliable kill. I've always wanted 5 - 6 No. Four Buck pellets in the vitals for good clean kills. T-shot and BB's need a few more pellets and the lower down the shot size scale the more would be needed yet.
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/22/08 11:58 PM

I did a little calling today and ran into a group of hound hunters. They were all using shotguns and 000 buck. They said they've found it works best for them. I've done well with turkey loads and high velocity loads of 4's and 2's. Alot of people like to use number 4 buck, dead coyote, or bb I also like them too. It proves to me that you don't have to have the text book load in your shotgun. A good tight pattern and calling them into reasonable ranges is where its at.
Posted by: Semp

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/23/08 11:48 PM

Quote:

Question--
Live in KY, where buckshot isn't allowed, in fact nothing larger than #2 shot. Would like to work up a choke/load for my mossberg. What would you guys suggest? 3.5 Magnum. What would the max range be on a yote?




Not true, deathbringer. In KY one can use T shot or smaller for coyotes. But no buckshot.

The #2 shot restriction is for small game. (rabbits, squirrels, etc.) Coyotes are considered to be a furbearer and comes under different rules.
Posted by: TexasAg93

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/28/08 02:10 PM

Well, I finally got the holidays over with for now and got out to pattern my Benelli with the Burris Fast Fire installed. Wind was horrible but got centered at 30yds.

This is the Winchester Supreme 3" #4 turkey load. Mod choke in 18.5" barrel. Let me say that its a butt kicker! Bout let the Benelli get away from me on the first shot.

4 center squares are about 5"x5". I got 14 hits in that at 30yds. I am going to go with this for now until I can get some other rounds to test.

Posted by: missouriman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/08 05:52 PM

Quote:

GC,

I just got through reading this entire thread and think you pretty well summed it up in your last post. I agree that 50 yards is not a gimme, and to find a combination that will reliably do it sometimes takes a lot of effort/chokes/ and ammunition, even then some luck mixed in don't hurt. On any shotgunned coyote I always plan on giving him another dose or two, especially on the longer shots. I would say my average shotgunned coyote is less than 40 yards and don't need a second shot but over 40 they sometimes do and experience has taught me that when in doubt give him some more. I've even been known to cut the distance a few yards before giving him another.

On deciding between the heavy weights and lead I will always go with the heavy weights for the extra energy as well as hardness. They just flat out penetrate and break bones better. I've killed lots of coyotes and a few cats with the DC and a couple with the HD stuff and it just flat crushes bones and penetrates better than anything I've ever used. It is more expensive but worth the extra cost to me. With guys like you putting in the work and narrowing down what works the best it will save us all a bunch of money narrowing down our best combinations to try for ourselves.

I plan on testing the Remington HD more in the next few weeks when I get more chokes and my shotgun. I did however cut open a DC load and a HD load to see what the difference was, if any. Here are a couple of pictures of what I saw. It’s apparent that the HD stuff is slicker looking and is slightly more uniform. Not sure how they are made but the Remington stuff is not as brittle as the DC. Not sure whether or not it makes a difference or not but I was unable to break the Remington shot with pliers and was easily able to crush the DC stuff. I'd heard rumors that the Remington stuff was softer. I don't think so as I was unable to get a mark on it with considerable effort on the pliers. Keep in mind I'm not saying this makes it more effective on coyotes at all. It's simply just an observation.





Thanks everyone for sharing your results.

Byron




where are u finding the remington hd tshot at ?? the basspro shop here dont carrie them,
and do u think they are a better bet than the dead coyote shot shells ???
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/08 07:00 PM

I got the Rem T shot from Sportsmen Warehouse.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/09 11:25 AM

MM,
I ordered all mine from MidwayUSA in Columbia, MO. Cabela's is another good source. Regarding which is better, it would seem the HD shot is less brittle and prone to breaking up. HD is also touted as being more choke and pattern friendly and not as hard on barrels and chokes as the Hevi-Shot. When you factor in the great rebate Remington has been running on the stuff, it is substantially cheaper than Hevi-Shot. I maxed my rebate out last year and Remington was good for their word sending a $150.00 check to me about 4 weeks after I sent in the rebate. HD works for me...
Posted by: missouriman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/09 11:32 AM

thanks GC,
I was hopeing not to have to pay that haz mat shipping, but it would give me a good reason to order some powder also
I wish this basspro shop here would carry it but not yet ,heck they dont even carry the dead coyote choke , I had to oder it from Cabela's, so it should be here friday
anyway thanks
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/09 11:39 AM

I don't "think" you pay HazMat shipping on loaded ammo. You do pay it for powder, primers, certain cleaning solvents, ect... But I really don't think HazMat applies to loaded ammo. If I'm wrong, someone set me straight?
Posted by: missouriman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/09 11:44 AM

GC
midway only has those on Seasonal Run and they are out now , ill keep looking thanks
Posted by: missouriman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/02/09 03:13 PM


Posted by: missouriman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/02/09 03:47 PM

Posted by: gobblr addict

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/09/09 08:00 PM

Hey fellows....Been a long time away from here! Read this great post all the way through.....As my name suggests, I'm addicted to turkey hunting.....I say that to say this....

I've done extensive testing for 4-5yrs. with turkey shot and many choke tubes. I started out hunting with a Winchester pump a .665" Kick's GT and Win.#5's. They were the best thing in the early 90's going, with 35yds effective range...

Kick's and Comp-n-choke were two of the best chokes going and are still in the top 5, IMO.....

With the advent of Hevi-shot came Dead Coyote and others experimenting with tungsten mixes. I am one who has to have the best shooting gun possible toting in the woods. All of my friends too kept evolving to non-leaded loads.

What almost all of us found was a need to open up the chokes from non-overbored guns, Remingtons and Winchesters, and even some back bored guns like Brownings. We all moved from .655-665" constriction chokes to .670-.680" chokes, namely a factory Rem. XFull. And today, I'm planning to shoot some handloaded Hevi-shot loads with .700" Carlson's Full on the business end of my Rem. 870. A friend is handloading these HD loads and suggests .700"+...

yotenaylor, Rich Cronk, and derbyacresbob, all seem to have experienced the same results as I and 5-6 other hardcore turkey hunters found when moving towards shooting the hard-hitting Hevi-shot/tungsten loads.

Now some may say I'm crazy, but I believe the best patterning loads going are by Nitro Ray Filigomo of Nitro Company. These custom loads are so expensive, I'm ashamed to tell that they are $6.00-$7.00/shell. His ammo is famous for him mixing shot sizes, such as 4x5x7's, etc.

Someone above mentioned better patterns with non-ported tubes, and I too am finding this to be true with Hevi-shot and Remington HD loads. Kick's and Comp-n-choke do not recommend Hevi-shot anyways....Some friends do still shoot it despite warnings from the company.

When I first started shooting Hevi-shot I was shooting at a target with a 2" PVC pipe target stand. Copper-plated lead shot would just glance off the 2" PVC. Then as I shot Remington's Hevi-shot and Nitro Cos., the heavier than lead shots completely penetrated the 2" pipe!! I could hardly believe it...

Now I have not and probably will not shoot any loads for yote hunting as they are too darn tough to get in close here in the east. But I just wanted to say that I've found Hevi-shot or any tungsten-mixed loads perform better at longer ranges (40+ yds.) with moderately open chokes versus tight turkey chokes. And by what I've read here in experiments with T's, BB's, 1B, etc., looks like Rem HD BB's would be what I'd buy to start out if I do get antsy to bust a yote with a scattergun! Thanks for all the great pix and such. I'm sorry the post was so long! gobblr addict
Posted by: JWG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/14/09 09:31 PM

What would most of you guys say about 3" 1 7/8 Oz BB Lead?
Posted by: kal52

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/15/09 12:36 AM

JWG,
I cant speak to how it does on coyote, Im sure from what Ive read here, Just fine. I do know that Itll kill a skunk, coons and porcupines at 40ish and a bit beyond, not sure how far beyond since I didnt go to pick up the skunks .

Good luck

Dave
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/15/09 11:46 AM

Quote:

What would most of you guys say about 3" 1 7/8 Oz BB Lead?




With a good tight pattern and plenty of BB's in the vital area it is a fine killer.
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/15/09 12:35 PM

A dense pattern and center it on the head of a yote. You'll be fine.
Posted by: WPH

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/18/09 01:33 PM

I am trying to choose a load for my Mossberg 835 for as much range as my pattern will give on coyotes. I came with 6 loadings.

Two Remington : Wingmaster HD 3.5" 1.75oz BB at 1300fps and 1.625oz T at 1350fps

Two Federal : New coyote high density (if available) 3" 1.5 oz BB at 1350fps and waterfowl high density 3.5" 1.625 oz BB+ at 1450 fps (!)

Two Winchester: Coyote high density 3" 1.375 oz at ?fps and waterfowl high density 3.5 " 1.625 oz at ?fps

Which loading do you recommend?

I am interested in two loadings the most, the Federal waterfowl loading at 1450fps and the Winchester waterfowl load (I am guessing that this is also fast).

Does anybody have experience with the Federal waterfowl load? The shot is shaped differently.

Does anybody know the velocity of the two Winchester loads I listed? I cannot find it.

Also, with these loads do smooth chokes or chokes that grab the wad tend to pattern better? Do extended chokes tend to pattern better? What choke size is good to start with?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/18/09 02:18 PM

WPH,
You have picked some winners from the Big Three manufacturers. I would choose to begin my load testing with a quality extended choke of about .680" for the overbore Mossberg and the 3 ½” shell. The work there is yours to do, if you really want the ultimate load and choke, you have to assemble all the offerings and go to the range. Choose the one that patterns the best for you. You might throw another choke diameter in there if you want and see if the .680” is the sweet spot for your loads and barrel. It is a lot of work and more than a little expense, but experimenting on the range with pattern paper is the only way to know for sure what actually the ultimate is for you. I ended up using three choke diameters with all the shells in my experiment to find the best of the best for me and my guns.
Posted by: WPH

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/18/09 06:36 PM

Thank you for the info I am most interested in trying the Federal and Winchester waterfowl loadings that I listed. Are you familiar with the shot shape that Federal uses. Do you think that it could be good at extended ranges. I would really like to know the velocity of the Winchester load. Lastly both of these loads are 1.625 oz of BB+ and B. Is this a heavy enough charge and a large enough pellet for long range.

I know that I have to put in some range time and try some different things but the potential has to be there initially to build the ultimate long range rig. I do not have a lot of experience so I am trying to get all of the info I can before I start.

It looks like I may be trying some different things so I will try to post results.

I hope I can get feedback soon so I can order stuff tomorrow.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/18/09 11:18 PM

This Federal load you refer to isn't a steel shot load is it? Black Cloud? Don't waste time on steel shot for long range coyotes. Steel lacks penetration on geese, let alone a critter as tough as a coyote and that weighs four times more! The .12 gauge 3” load of HD-BB’s I shoot only has 1 ½ ounces of shot at 1,300 fps and it is a solid killer to at least the 50 yard line. It does that with BB size shot because of the dense heavier than lead weight of the HD shot, the hardness without being too brittle, and the decent velocity of 1,300 fps. I discounted the Winchester loading when I did my testing because the largest shot was B and the shot charge was light. Velocity is good, but the pellets were smaller than I prefer and just not enough of them. Winchester sacrificed pellet count for velocity. That can work if it all plays out just so, but I really didn’t want to drop below the BB size shot.
Posted by: Matt74

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/19/09 03:12 PM

Thanks to everyone for all the hard work and posting all this great information. I have a Mossberg 935 and a Kicks GT .690 choke. I am going to give the Rem HD BB's a try. My question is should I try 3" or 3.5"? I have had better luck with 3.5" turkey loads.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/19/09 03:59 PM

Matt,
Up to you buddy... Your gun and choke will take the 3.5" shell just fine. You might try both to see which patterns best from your rig and then go from there.
Posted by: WPH

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/09 01:07 AM

GC,

I ordered the Federal High Density waterfowl loads in 3.5 inch BB+ 100 pellets at 1450fps. After I got the shells I realized they were not what I thought they were. If you have a federal catalog or study their website you will see what I am talking about. This load is a steel replacement being softer and denser than steel but is about the same density as lead, slightly less, 10g/cc. I misundersood the catalog, their high density is actually not high density, their heavyweight is high density. Should I sideline this load?

In the Remington Wingmaster HD which pellet size do you recommend BB or T? Also, what is a good choke size to start with in a Mossberg 835 for either load? And, do you know the pellet count in 3.5 inch of their BB and T?

What do you think of a 00 Buckshot load of 15-18 pellets out to "extended" ranges? Is there potential? What would be a good starting point for a choke size in a Mossberg 835 and 00 ?

Sorry if I am bugging you, there just is not anywhere else that I know of for good info. I have an old stand by combo of 4 buck in the Mossberg 500 but I am trying to upgrade. I know that I need to field test but I need good starting points. Thanks a lot.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/09 01:07 PM

WPH,
Let me see if I can answer you by the line... Whether you sideline the load or send it back for a refund is up to you. Personally, I'd get a refund.

I choose the BB's because they patterned better for me from my chokes. I really wanted the T's to work out, but that wasn't to be for me. Because of the special characteristics of the HD shot I am satisfied with the BB size shot. HD carries more energy than lead and with the harder alloy penetrates better. It is sort of like taking a step or maybe even two sizes up in size over plated lead pellets. T's might be better for really long ranges if they pattern well for you.

For choke constrictions I'd look first at something around .680" - .685" for your Mossberg with 3 ½” loads.

Skip the 00 Buck... do some research reading here. 00 Buck offers nothing to a predator caller and in fact has several distinct disadvantages. Namely the too few pellets and thin sparse patterns. 00 is also considerably harder to get good long distance patterns with than smaller sizes like No. Four Buck and down.
Posted by: remington870

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/25/09 10:42 AM

Good luck getting a refund on ammo. Not federals or anyone elses fault you didn't know what you were buying.
Posted by: bradmhendrickson

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/09 05:10 PM

Great thread. I was at the range today and my friend gave me a couple rounds of dead coyote 12 gauge 3.5 inch T. I have a benelli nova with patternmaster extended range. I have never come across a load that I would use at 50 yards but this did it. I shot at a piece of 8.5 x 11 inch computer paper. 27 pellets on the paper. We figured 9 would hit a fox if it was facing you for a head on head/chest shot like we usually get at night when lighting up eyes. Thats impressive. One thing thats interesting is 3.5 shells general pattern looser than 3 inch out of a pattermaster extended range choke. I just ordered a box of remington HD wingmaster 3 inch BB. I'll be curious to see how it performs. I'll take pics next time. Never used these non toxic alternative before but if the BB performs well I'll be picking up some turkey loads too. Too bad its so expensive. I would need a second job to use it for waterfowl.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/09 10:30 PM

I'm going to try some of the HD turkey loads too. I see Big Green has a rebate on turkey loads so that will ease the pain some.
Posted by: JeremyKS

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/14/09 10:52 PM

Can anybody tell me what a Carlson Dead Coyote Choke Benelli choke measures?
Thanks
Posted by: Partagas

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/16/09 03:48 PM

.665 iirc
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/26/09 09:34 AM

I have an older Beretta A390 and have been using Carlson's dead Coyote choke tube with 1 7/8" copper plated BB shot. I havent been impressed with the patterning but have shot 2 coyotes with the combo. Both dropped where they stood at 50 and 60 yards. Is there a better choice of choke tube constriction I can try improve my patterns at long range? I just picked up a Primos Dead dog and havent given it a try yet along with a mad max turkey choke. I have tried 2 of the original pattern masters out of my 10 gauge Browning in the past and have had better patterning out of my factory chokes and the best being a discontinued Herters extended range tube that I picked up from Cabelas bargin bin for eight bucks. Pattern master replaced the old ones with an extended tube but I havent had a chance to try it and after the less than stellar perfomance I dont feel opt to purchase a $100 paper weight again. I have been reading that around .680 is the best overall? Is this good for my diameter barrel and if so who also makes that diameter to try? Eventualy I am going to step up to the plate and pull the trigger once the New Benelli is unvailed, providing its 3.5" and camoed. For some reason most of the 3.5" patterns I have seen seem to have blown patterns at longer ranges versus the 3" ammo offerings...just me or have manufactures been improving ammunition and choke tubes yet. It just seems like the 3.5" shells have been a gimmic so far but of course I am drawn to make a purchase anyways.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/26/09 05:02 PM

Dultixxx,
For BB's and T-shot you might look at something around .670" as a good beginning ground. You just don't absolutely know how it'll do until you shoot them with several loads on paper at various ranges. I have a .655 JellyHead, .660" Kick's GT, .665" Indian Creek Black Diamond Strike, .670" Kick's GT, and a .680" Kick's GT for my older Benelli M1S90's. The Indian Creek choke is new and I'll be shooting it some very soon. Right now the .660" and .670" Kick's are my most used chokes. The Indian Creek is an unknown and I am anxious to do some shooting with it. On a side note, for 00 Buck the factory Benelli Improved Modified has out patterned anything else I have found to date.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/27/09 07:27 AM

The bore diameter of that Mossberg 835 is a nominal .775, and a constricition of .045 is X-full. A .680 choke tube would be .095 constricion. I do belive that a .680 choke tube on a Mossberg 835 would be a little too tight?
Posted by: acorn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/27/09 10:27 AM

I have a benelli M-2---the best Choke for remington HD BB was the trulock .685 choke tube--this patterned very well out to 40 yards---my self imposed limit.
I have found that when velocities exceed 1300 fps or payload exceeds 1 5/8 oz. paterns tend to blow apart.
I have also found that hand loaded ammo works better than factory--if I shoot factory ammo it is Rem HD
The above is just my opinion and results from my guns and loads.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/27/09 08:32 PM

Quote:

The bore diameter of that Mossberg 835 is a nominal .775, and a constricition of .045 is X-full. A .680 choke tube would be .095 constricion. I do belive that a .680 choke tube on a Mossberg 835 would be a little too tight?




Rich has a point, the M835 is a .12 gauge with a .10 gauge bore. Good catch Rich!
Posted by: JeremyKS

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/09 08:55 PM

Im trying to setup a Benelli M1 with a 21 inch barrel. I plan to shoot 3 inch Dead Coyote, Remington HD BB, or Federal Premium #4 buck. I intend to limit my shotgun shots to around 35 yards and mostly use it for hard running chargers so 10 yard shots maybe common. With that said I'm not looking for a choke that shoots real real tight for 40+ yard shots. But I want to make sure I can knock one dead at 35 yards if one stops and hangs up while I'm committed to my shotgun. Does anybody have suggestions on what chokes and size I should think about?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/05/09 12:30 PM

I'll bet your factory Improved Modified choke will do very well for that application. Improved Modified constriction is in the middle between the standard Modified and Full chokes. My Benelli factory IM choke is excellent with all shot sizes up to and including 00 Buck and is one of my most used chokes for other game I use my shotguns on. In fact, my Tactical Model M1 has the IM choke in it and is stuffed with Federal Premium 00 Buck for serious predator encounters of the two legged kind. That gun will give me 30 yard patterns I can rely on to keep all 9 of the 00 Buck pellets within a man size target. I can swap out the 00 Buck for a slug and it hits right on at 60 yards and groups well enough for my needs and purposes for this gun. If I expected 35 yards to be tops and needed a pattern big enough for hard chargers at ultra close range that would be the first choke I would look to. BTW, I'm jealous of that 21" vent ribbed screw-in choke Benelli M1 barrel. I'd like to run across one with a reasonable price on it.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/05/09 01:07 PM

I just checked on the Remington Web-site and they have a rebate for $15.00 back on the Rem HD BB loads in 3" and 3.5" they also show a rebate for the 3.5" Predator "T" shot load. The 3" Predator HD "T" shot load is not on the rebate list. This rebate is for only up to $15.00. There are a bunch of Turkey loads on the rebate list also. The rebate offer is good through 4/30/09.
Posted by: JeremyKS

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/05/09 04:02 PM

I will shoot it sometime with my factory choke first to see what I got. I haven't shot this gun much yet but I like it a lot. I found this gun used in mint condition with only 100 rounds down the tube. I bought it for the same price I sold my Winchester X2!!
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/07/09 09:34 AM

Anyone try the new Indian Creek predator choke tube yet? I see it has .710 constriction which seems a little too large for throwing BB shot in my A390 Beretta.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/07/09 11:35 AM

I just bought an Indian Creek Black Diamond Strike in .665" that I am going to begin wringing out when I get some decent weather. I’ll be shooting some turkey loads through it for gobbler hunting this spring to compare with my favorite Kick’s Gobblin’ Thunder. And I’ll shoot my favorite predator loads of Remington Wingmaster HD-BB and my old standby Federal Premium No. Four Buck. We‘ll see how she wrings out on the bench. If it doesn‘t shoot as well as I think it should I‘ll contact Indian Creek and do some swapping with some other constrictions and give it a fair chance.

It is beautifully made, very long; it adds another 2" to barrel length. The Integrated Wad Catch Technology is interesting on the interior of the choke. That is a different approach to slowing the wad from the shot. It will be interesting to see how it shoots. It is a thick walled choke and heavy built.

A couple of things I wonder about just from looking at the choke is how hard it is going to be to clean all those long, closely spaced vents when they get clogged with powder residue and plastic wad build up. Probably a good complete soaking in some strong solvent, a bronze brush, and some dental picking the slots? Another possible thing I wonder about is the entire outer surface is finely machine knurled and I can't help but wonder what will happen when all those little sharp edges get dinged up from packing, leaning the gun against trees, ect. When the little tops get the blue knocked off, are they going to become shiny and buggered up? The last thing is this choke can only be hand tightened; there is no place for a wrench or hole for a pin to go through to tweak it snug.

As for constriction of their “Predator” model choke, I’d bet they have the old school mindset of using 00 Buck on coyotes. The Black Diamond Strike is available in any constriction you want, so I don’t see that as much of a problem. I know right now they are slightly backed up for the upcoming turkey season, but if I really like the choke I may contact them after turkey season and bend their ear about predator hunting with shotguns. One ole’ Missouri boy to another and see what experience they have and what their mindset is on the subject.
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/15/09 09:29 PM

Quote:

I have an older Beretta A390 and have been using Carlson's dead Coyote choke tube with 1 7/8" copper plated BB shot. I havent been impressed with the patterning but have shot 2 coyotes with the combo. Both dropped where they stood at 50 and 60 yards. Is there a better choice of choke tube constriction I can try improve my patterns at long range? I just picked up a Primos Dead dog and havent given it a try yet along with a mad max turkey choke. I have tried 2 of the original pattern masters out of my 10 gauge Browning in the past and have had better patterning out of my factory chokes and the best being a discontinued Herters extended range tube that I picked up from Cabelas bargin bin for eight bucks. Pattern master replaced the old ones with an extended tube but I havent had a chance to try it and after the less than stellar perfomance I dont feel opt to purchase a $100 paper weight again. I have been reading that around .680 is the best overall? Is this good for my diameter barrel and if so who also makes that diameter to try? Eventualy I am going to step up to the plate and pull the trigger once the New Benelli is unvailed, providing its 3.5" and camoed. For some reason most of the 3.5" patterns I have seen seem to have blown patterns at longer ranges versus the 3" ammo offerings...just me or have manufactures been improving ammunition and choke tubes yet. It just seems like the 3.5" shells have been a gimmic so far but of course I am drawn to make a purchase anyways.






I picked up a .680 Kicks tube from one of the posters here and went out today to try some 50 yard shot patterns. I used 9" paper plates. First test was with 3" Federal 1 7/8oz copper plated BB's. I tried a Mad Max .665 tube and hit the plate with 5 shots. The Kicks .680 hit the plate 4 and 5 times, had to try it 2ce. Tried the Undertaker .675 and hit the plate with one single BB. Randy Andersons .675 dead dog produced 4 hits. After spending money on the above chokes my best came with the tube I already had and have been using, Carlson's dead coyote producing 6 hits. I tried one last shot of Federal's 3" #4 buck out of the .680 Kicks and hit the plate 6 times with 2 of the pellets striking dead center, missing each other by a quarter inch. I must say my 10 gauge will prduce around 8-12 strikes at this distance on average. Well, I'm still on a mission to find the "ultimate" choke for the 390. I am shocked that I dropped a yote at 60 yards, and I can tell you it had to be closer to 65 now that I took my range finder out today with me. I must have had one lucky pellet hit it in the mellon. I can tell you at 50 yards the one I shot bloodied it up with this round(you can see it in my past posts) I'm going to try to run into a .670 kicks and also try some dead coyote and report back. Anyone have any other suggestions as far as what other chokes I can try?
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/15/09 10:31 PM

Dultimatpredator, check out page 5 of this thread and look at the pictures of the patterns I shot with the Federal Premium 1-7/8 oz of copper coated lead BB's and the Remington Wingmaster HD 3" BB load. The Rem HD load had 25 less pellets in it than the Federal 3" lead BB load had and the Rem HD load put over twice as many pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards than the Federal 3" BB load did. The Rem HD BB load put 32 pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards and the Federal lead BB's with 25 more pellets in the shell only put 15 pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards. The Rem HD pellets also penetrated into the catalogs 3 to 4 times deeper than the copper coated lead BB's did.
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/15/09 10:47 PM

Quote:

Dultimatpredator, check out page 5 of this thread and look at the pictures of the patterns I shot with the Federal Premium 1-7/8 oz of copper coated lead BB's and the Remington Wingmaster HD 3" BB load. The Rem HD load had 25 less pellets in it than the Federal 3" lead BB load had and the Rem HD load put over twice as many pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards than the Federal 3" BB load did. The Rem HD BB load put 32 pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards and the Federal lead BB's with 25 more pellets in the shell only put 15 pellets in a 12" circle at 40 yards. The Rem HD pellets also penetrated into the catalogs 3 to 4 times deeper than the copper coated lead BB's did.




10-4, I'll pickup a box of these to try. I have just tried not to give into paying $3 per shell. My best 10 gauge groups came from the old discontinued Toungsten Iron BBB 1 7/8 oz loads that were around $33 a box. Knocked the [beeep] out anything in its path but killed the pocketbook. At a dozen hits on a paper plate I couldn't afford not to purchase them . At 40 yards I would get 40 to 50 hits with a Herters extended range choke tube I picked up used at Cabelas bargin bin for $8! After crushing a couple of Yotes and Cats with BBs I am sold on it being the right size for the job. I'll see if I can get the Rems to Pattern and if not I'll try the 3" bb heavy shot Goose loads. I just dont feel the need for anything larger and loosing pellet count.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/15/09 11:53 PM

I really like the pellet count of 73 pellets in the Rem HD BB load over the Dead Coyote load with 50 pellets in it. Remington has a rebate of $15.00 for one box of 10 HD loads. Check the Remington web-site I think the rebate is good through April.
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/16/09 09:54 AM

Has anyone tried Remington's new Predator T loads yet?
Posted by: Joel Hughes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/16/09 10:05 AM

.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/17/09 12:41 AM

Never seen Choke Shine before. I may give that a try, thanks for bring that to the thread. Regarding hand tight, I know that is the recommended way. But slick sided chokes sometimes are a little hard to snug up by hand alone, especially if they are short. I won't crank down on them with a wrench, but just a tiny little tweak has been good for me. I actually had a choke come very loose on me in a Remington barrel. It was probably a 1/4" out when I noticed it. Since then I've been in the habit of just giving them a little tiny bump past hand tight. The Indian Creek is 2” long out of the barrel and knurled so it probably will be easy enough to snug down. Indian Creek has won the NWTF shoots for the last three years and I think they have set a new record. They have a great reputation and I’m going to give them a whirl and we’ll see how they shake out. You're right on the anti-seize tube lube - don't ask me how I know how important that stuff is!
Posted by: rk_az

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/20/09 03:22 PM

I emailed Chuck at Kicks to ask for a choke recommendation. I am shooting a Rem 870 Express, 21" ribbed RemChoke barrel and 3" DC T's. His recommendation (the light full BK, .700) surprised me a bit. Since T shot falls between #4 bird and #4 buck, I expected (based on Kicks selection chart) that he would suggest either the .670 GT, or the .690 BK.

I replied to his email asking for some insight into that recommendation, and he did not respond. Maybe someone here has an idea? I am far from an expert on shotguns...
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/20/09 11:46 PM

Kick's is very conservative in their recommendations when it concerns Hevi Shot. They will normally recommend a really open constriction for Hevi Shot, more so than other makers do. Best I can tell Kick's uses quality steel and heat treatment, they just play it very safe. I would not shoot Hevi Shot through their sister company Comp-n-Choke products because of the construction design of that particular product. The long circular vents around the C-n-C chokes seem to weaken them and they aren't as strong as other designs to include the Kick's chokes. Let us know what Chuck has to say in his reply. One of the reasons the stuff like the Wingmaster HD and Winchester XR is slowly gaining ground on Hevi Shot is because they are softer and easier on barrels and chokes than the harder more brittle Hevi Shot.
Posted by: kymailman98

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/25/09 09:20 PM

I put an Indian Creek Black Diamond on my Benelli SBE2, and can't believe how tight a pattern it shoots with Winchester HV 3 1/2's number 5 shot. It's like shooting a rifle at close ranges.
Posted by: MAUMAU

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/27/09 10:50 AM

I am shooting a Benelli SBE II with 3 1/2" Dead Coyote.

Has anyone tried using a Polychoke instead of purchasing individual chokes that may, or may not, work well?

It seems like a great concept and may order one and give it a try.

Here is a link: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...rset=ISO-8859-1
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/27/09 02:23 PM

Actually someone did try an adjustable choke and had trouble with it. It seemed to pattern the same regardless of how you twisted the adjustments! I thought about that route also, but I just don't think they are made tight enough for a long range shotgun choke.
Posted by: Tim Neitzke

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/09 10:36 AM

Where are you guys getting your Indian Creek chokes from?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/09 07:17 PM

They are made only about two hours from where I live. A local gunshop stocks them here. You can also get them through Midwest Turkey Call Supply.com. Before coyote calling season I am going to call and see if I can tour the shop and talk a little predator hunting with them. If it isn't too windy I am going to pattern my Indian Creek this coming week one day when I can sneak outta work early. I'll take some pictures and post the results.
Posted by: Tim Neitzke

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/09 11:50 PM

Thanks
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/03/09 12:50 PM

I patterned 3 inch rem hd through an indian creek black diamond strike with great results out of both 21 inch barreled 870 and a 21 inch barreled 11-87.
I also had great results with the same choke and 3.5 inch dead coyote out of a 24 inch barreled 870.
Sorry guys no picks and i didnt record the hits but i will say any coyote inside 50 yards will be in serious trouble.
50 yards was as far as i shot.
The choke constriction was .665.
I originally purchased these chokes for turkey hunting and must say they are the best patterning turkey chokes i have ever used,so i was more than pleased to find out that they will also be great double duty chokes for yotes as well.
I have been so impressed by these chokes that yesterday i ordered two more for my rem sp10.
I ordered one in .690 that i think should work real good with #5 or 6 for turkeys and one in .710 that should work real good with the rem hd BB or some #4 buck.
When i end up patterning the 10 guage ill try and be a little detailed with pics and counts and such.
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/18/09 11:20 AM

Heres a load of Winchester 2 oz., #5's from my 10 gauge from two days ago(actually 2 shots, 1 to to finish it off).

Posted by: Songdog1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 05/30/09 12:15 AM

Derbyacresbob:

What size is the target paper that you are patterning with?

Songdog1
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 05/31/09 02:32 PM

Quote:

Derbyacresbob:

What size is the target paper that you are patterning with?

Songdog1




The paper I have been using for pattern testing is 22" wide by 28" tall. The big ring is 12" in diameter and the smaller bulls eye is 3" in diameter.

Hopefully this next season we will have more coyotes to call in than we had this past season. I really want to try the Rem HD #2's. I think they will penetrate as good if not better than the lead Copper Coated BB's do. I guess I need to do another penetration test to find out.

Here is a picture with the Rem HD #2's, I really like the pellet count on this pattern. If these Rem Wingmaster HD 2's penetrate as good as the lead copper coated BB's I think they will work great on our 20 pound to 30 pound coyotes.
Posted by: Songdog1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 05/31/09 03:04 PM

It may be premature, but the pics you take are terrific for a certain type of pattern analysis.

There are programs that will actually take your pics of your patterns and plot the points in x,y coordinate data sets. These data sets can then be analyzed by statistical programs.

One such program is:

http://www.shotgun-insight.com/

this is more oriented towards clay target sports, but may have some relevance to predator hunters.

Keep taking pics of your patterns, and posting them.

Thanks.

Songdog1
Posted by: Songdog1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 05/31/09 03:47 PM

The program I use to count and plot the points, counted 116 points to your 108 points.

81 points here



35 points here



I have the data points on an Excel spreadsheet if you like.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 05/31/09 08:03 PM

Songdog1, I see at least 7 green + marks on those two pictures where there are no pellet holes.

I went out to shoot my new rifle a couple of hours ago and I took a catalog and a few shotgun shells to do a penetration test. I shot the catalog at 40 yards with a Federal Premium 12 ga 3" 1-7/8 oz load of copper coated lead BB's then I shot the same catalog from the same distance with a Remington Wingmaster HD 12 ga 3" 1-1/2 oz load.
The first four copper coated lead BB pellets were found on pages 113, 113, 115 and 117. The deepest copper coated lead pellet went through 223 pages.
The first four Rem Wingmaster HD #2 pellets were found on pages, 115, 121, 207 and 213. The deepest Rem HD #2 pellet went through 387 pages.



Here is the catalog I shot with the two different loads and the copper coated lead BB pellets and the Rem Wingmaster HD #2 pellets that I took out of the catalog.
The copper coated lead BB's averaged 143 pages of penetration per pellet and the Remington Wingmaster HD #2's averaged 237 pages of penetration per pellet.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 05/31/09 10:39 PM

Good info again Bob, thanks. How many pellets are in a 3" HD-#2 load? What is there, 72 HD-BB's in the 3" shell? That #2 load could have real possibilities.
Posted by: Songdog1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 05/31/09 11:23 PM

Quote:

Songdog1, I see at least 7 green + marks on those two pictures where there are no pellet holes.





Yeah. I see them now. I can edit them out. I wanted you to see the program though. I thought the program was pretty cool.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 06/01/09 12:46 AM

Quote:

Good info again Bob, thanks. How many pellets are in a 3" HD-#2 load? What is there, 72 HD-BB's in the 3" shell? That #2 load could have real possibilities.




GC, I thought you would remember,LOL. I posted it on page 9 of this thread. I posted it and I didn't remember how many HD 2's there were in each shell, it took me 10 minutes to find it, LOL. There are 124 #2 HD pellets in the 3" 12 ga 1-1/2 oz Wingmaster HD load. The Wingmaster HD BB loads I counted had 72 in one shell and 73 in the other.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 06/28/09 08:28 PM


Remington 870 Tactical 18" Remchoke barrel
45 yards
9" paper plates
Remington 3" Wingmaster HD #2

Primos Tightwad:
1 1/2 oz 1300fps 18 hits
1 1/4 oz 1450fps 21 hits

Rem XFULL Turkey:
1 1/2 oz 1300fps 14 hits
1 1/4 oz 1450fps 11 hits

Dead Coyote choke was somewhere in between but didn't score well because it was throwing the pattern off to the right.

Winner of this round: Primos Tightwad with 1 1/4 oz @1450fps 21 hits
Posted by: DeathPenalty

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 07/14/09 09:47 PM

Has anyone done any handloading of BBs, either straight lead or plated on top of a healthy dose of Longshot? It seems like 1 1/8oz of nickel plated BBs moving at 1500+ fps would be awful ugly.
Posted by: Tim Neitzke

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail &amp; Pic' heavy... - 07/24/09 04:06 PM

learned something new today!

Talked with Chuck at kicks chokes today. I've bee worried about over choking my hevi-shot and doing damage to the chokes! This is not the case, to tight of a choke with hard shot will bulge the barrel from excessive pressure. That's why they don't like real tight chokes with shot like DC. It's a personal thing. Just a company covering there rear.

So the way I uderstand it is........Do what you want ,but don't come crying when your gun is junk!


It was a pricey call to say the least ! Got 3 chokes on the way. The best part is I have 30 days to test them. Return the ones I don't want for exchange or refund !
Wow that's good CS !

Tim
Posted by: ironworker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/09 06:43 PM

I have a Benelli Nova with 28" BBL Just purchased a Cabela's Hevi Shot coyote choke . I have some Hevi shot ammo 3"1 1/2 #2s I wonder if those are too light for coyotes ?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/09 08:01 PM

#2's aren't going to carry the energy that BB's or T-shot has at long distances, say over 40 - 45 yards.
Posted by: ironworker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/09 10:32 PM

I also have some W-W 3 1/2 OOO buck shot 54 pellets how will those perform out of the Hevi Shot coyote choke ?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/09 10:34 PM

I wouldn't shoot that 000 buck through any choke tighter than a modified.
Posted by: ironworker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/09 11:52 PM

Oh no I have the box its called #4 buck unplated shot. I have no time for gun accidents. What would happen? Over choked ? I'm a rifle shooter . But lately I've been wanting to put my shot gun to more use.I have a bunch of Rem "Premier Magnum" Copper plated Buffered Magnum 12 guage 3 1/2 MAX Dr.EQ 2 1/4 oz #4s. Now these loads kick hard. Will those work through this coyote choke? Thanks for your time.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/15/09 09:12 AM

Lead Number FOUR Buck will safely fire through a choke of about .680" from your shotgun. Those pellets are .24 caliber. They are small enough, and being lead, soft enough to manage the tight constriction. Triple ought (000) as you originally stated is too large at .33 caliber for any turkey tight choke. You need to take the time to go to the range and pattern your gun with that No. Four Buck to see how it shoots. The turkey loads can kill coyotes out to about 25 yards or so, but personally I have had bad luck overall with turkey loads. There are MUCH better choices, such as the No. Four Buckshot you have on hand.
Posted by: ironworker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/15/09 10:12 AM

Oh know did I waste my money I measured my Hevi shot coyote choke at .660. My stock Modified at about .700. Yes I'll take it to the range.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/09 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: ironworker
I have a Benelli Nova with 28" BBL Just purchased a Cabela's Hevi Shot coyote choke . I have some Hevi shot ammo 3"1 1/2 #2s I wonder if those are too light for coyotes ?


Hevi-Shot #2's wouldn't be my first choice for coyotes but they should work on California coyotes if you keep your shots under 35 yards. With Hevi-Shot half of those #2's will be bigger than 2's and half will be smaller than #2's. The Hevi-Shot #2's may work just as good as lead BB's since the Hevi-Shot #2's are heavier than lead.

The above picture is a picture of some Hevi-Shot "B" pellets and some (copper colored) Rem Wingmaster HD BB pellets. You can see that the Hevi-Shot "B" pellets come in sizes from about "T" size to "#2's" in size.
Posted by: ironworker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/09 09:43 PM

Very interesting thanks.My questions have all been answerd from reading all these post.
Posted by: ironworker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/09 09:44 PM

Well dang I guess not all. How does the buffer white stuff work?Does it protect the shot?
Posted by: Kioti_Driver

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/01/09 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Lead Number FOUR Buck will safely fire through a choke of about .680" from your shotgun. Those pellets are .24 caliber. They are small enough, and being lead, soft enough to manage the tight constriction. Triple ought (000) as you originally stated is too large at .33 caliber for any turkey tight choke. You need to take the time to go to the range and pattern your gun with that No. Four Buck to see how it shoots. The turkey loads can kill coyotes out to about 25 yards or so, but personally I have had bad luck overall with turkey loads. There are MUCH better choices, such as the No. Four Buckshot you have on hand.


GC,
You have me a bit cornfused! In your first shotgun tests you used a .660 choke with #4 Buck. Are you now saying that .680 is safer for a gun shooting #4 Buck?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/01/09 10:30 PM

All bores don't have the same internal dimensions, so the chokes actual constriction needs to be subtracted from the bore size to see where you are in true "tightness."
Posted by: Kioti_Driver

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/01/09 11:06 PM

I am not sure I understand what you just wrote. If I have two different brand shotguns, both with a .660” choke installed. Are you saying one gun could suffer damage firing #4 buck and the other gun be fine? Is this because one may have a thinner barrel and can’t take the stress caused by the restriction? I am planning on purchasing a Carson OEM .665 choke for my Rem. 870 Express and I sure don’t want a bulge or split barrel. shocked
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/01/09 11:20 PM

Here is an example, my Benelli's have .723" bores, while my Remington has .730" bores, and my sons new Winchester SX3 has a .743" bore. If I shoot a .660" choke in all three then I would have .063" constriction in the Benelli's, .070" in the Remington, and .083" in the Winchester. That extra .020" in constriction with Hevi-Shot type loads might put the Winchester over the limit for safe firing or good patterns. In the case of the Winchester I would need a .680" choke to match the same amount of constriction as I have in the Benelli's and the .660" choke. Clear as mud?
Posted by: Kioti_Driver

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/02/09 08:06 AM

Thanks GC. I think I understand. With the larger bore shotguns, you have a larger group of shot traveling down the barrel suddenly being restricted by the choke. In the smaller bore guns the shot is already traveling in a smaller group when it hits the choke, which causes less pressure. Thanks again for taking the time to explain it to me.
Posted by: yotehunter74

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/05/09 10:10 PM

GC,

Have you had the chance to do any testing with your soons sx3? If so what choke shot combo have you found the best results with? I just got mine and am awaiting a few other items then going to head to the range and make a day of it.

Thanks,
Steve
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/05/09 10:15 PM

Steve,
No, I haven't. He wants to knock some coyotes out with it, I guess we'll do some shooting after our deer hunting is done. If you come up with some good results and combo's, please post it up here and share your findings. That is the same bore and choke as the Browning Invector Plus so that info could cover a lot of guns and be real helpful.
Posted by: yotehunter74

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/05/09 10:21 PM

will do, I am going to try the factory chokes first and go from there would like to find a good combo with the full choke for greys they dont need as much of a push to give up as a yote lol may even head out tom. to try that then work on a yote load later... am thinking full choke with num 2's to start. I will try to get some good pics and put up soon.
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/06/09 09:18 AM

I am going to run some loads through my new browning maxus in the next couple of weeks when all my chokes arrive.
The maxus and the sx3 use the same bore and choke.
I will be giving the factory full a try,a puregold .670,an indian creek BDS choke .665 and a carlsons dead coyote choke.
To start it will be 3.5 inch dead coyote,3 inch rem hd bb and federal 3 inch #4 buck.
I have the gun and shells ready to test i am just waiting on the mailorder chokes to arrive.
I will post a detailed report when i get the job done hopefully within the next month.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/06/09 01:46 PM

That sounds good, please do post your results!
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/28/09 12:25 PM

Last monday i did some testing on two guns,three chokes each and three different loads.
One gun was a remington 11-87 turkey with a 21 inch barrel and 3 inch chamber.
In this gun i tested 3 chokes a primos jelly head.665,indian creek blackdiamond strike .665 and a pure gold .670.Loads tested were 3"federal #4 buck and 3" remington hd BB.
The second gun tested was a browning maxus with a 26 inch barrel and 3.5 inch chamber.
Three chokes were tested in this gun a carlsons dead coyote choke,indian creek black diamond strike .665 and a pure gold .670.Loads tested were 3"federal#4 buck,3"remington hd bb,and 3.5 inch heavishot dead coyote.
Here are the results,very interesting! [img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/067.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/068.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/068.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/025.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/026.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/027.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/028.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/029.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/030.jpg[/img] [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/032.jpg[/img]
All shots were taken from 40 yds.Paper is a 12x12 with a 6 inch middle.
The pure gold .670 with either rem hd bb or dead coyote seems to be the clear winner.
The carlsons was a close second with both loads.
Surprising to me was the indian creek which came in dead last,in three 870 pump guns i tested previous to this the results were much better with this choke.
It did do ok this roud with the #4 buck as did the primos jelly head.
The testing does prove that it really does pay to test your gun ,ckokes and load.
And taken on the same day latter that evening my first of this season a mature old female taken with the maxus,pure gold .670 and rem hd bb,first blood for the maxus. [img]http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/ONTARIO_CALLER/036.jpg[/img]
Posted by: MTurbo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/28/09 12:32 PM

FAIL. smile
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/28/09 02:20 PM

For some reason in my earlier post it wont allow me to post all pics in large form.
I suspect it only allows 10 large pics at a time so here are the rest.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/28/09 10:24 PM

Thank you for doing the work on that! It is very interesting stuff and can go on endlessly. I really like that Wingmaster HD-BB load a lot. It is easier to get decent patterns with and when it is right it can load a coyote up with that hard deep penetrating shot. The .670" constriction has worked very well for me, but it is amazing how even .005" difference can change a pattern. I would have liked to see how an Indian Creek BDS in .670" would compare with the Pure Gold .670" head to head.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/30/09 09:53 PM


In the above picture you can see a friend of mine in the process of testing Remington Wingmaster HD BB's on a coyote. You can see the green hull in the air just to the right of the shooter and some smoke by the shotgun.

Here is the pattern picture just a fraction of a second later.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/30/09 10:15 PM

Sweet picture Bob! How far was that shot?
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/30/09 10:28 PM

Thanks GC. That shot was right at 25 yards.The shooter was using my Rem 11-87 with a Carlson's improved modified extended choke and the 3" Rem HD BB's.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/30/09 10:29 PM

Twenty five yards, really sweet, a chip shot. Nice capture with the camera!
Posted by: bobeano

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/31/09 10:55 AM

I know you guys have probly,already said this but using #4 buck,how many hits in a 10in circle do you need to be call a kill shoot.
Posted by: Kioti_Driver

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/01/09 08:15 PM

I went out today and did a little shooting. I was using my 12 Ga Remington 870 Express 28” barrel, with a new Primos Jellyhead .665 choke I had just purchased. I set my targets out (9” paper plates) at 40 yards. My ammo for this round of pattern testing was Remington 3” #4 Buck. On my first shot, I think I pulled a little left. I was a bit twitchy, not knowing what to expect. I got my act together for the next two. I think I can kill a coyote with is setup.



Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/17/09 12:02 AM


In the above picture the copper coated lead pellets are number 2's, the next size bigger lead pellets are BB's and the biggest lead pellets are "T" shot from BPI.

All of this information is for lead shot.

4's are .129" dia with 135 pellets per ounce

2's are .148" dia with 90 pellets per ounce

BB's are .18" dia with 50 pellets per ounce

"T" are .20 dia with 31 pellets per ounce

Number 4 Buck are .24" dia with 21 pellets per ounce

I have noticed some people don't pay any attention to pellet size or pellet count when they use a shotgun for coyotes. A real eye opener is to put some different sizes of pellets like 2's, BB's, "T" and number 4 Buckshot in your hand.

Number 2 bird shot pellets are really big pellets when you compare them to 6's or 7-1/2's. But 2's look pretty small when you compare them to BB's, "T" or number 4 buckshot.

On each size difference between 2"s, BB, "T" and Number 4 buck, the pellet weight increase is about 40% more per pellet as you go up in pellet size.

The difference in inches in diameter does not look like much between the pellet sizes but the actual pellet weight per pellet is huge.

Many years ago I shot some coyotes with copper coated lead number 2's and if the shot angle was not perfect, I didn't like the results.

When I switched to copper coated lead BB's I could see the difference in performance right away. At the time I didn't really know that the BB's weighed 40% more than the 2's, but I did see that they performed much better than the 2's.

To get killing penetration on a coyote when the shot angle is not perfect it has to be a heavy pellet. 2's, 4's and smaller size pellets will not penetrate deep enough or break bones like the bigger pellets do.

The point I am trying to make is go with the biggest pellet size in lead pellets that you can and still get a dense pattern. In factory ammo that would be BB's or number 4 buckshot.

It is too bad nobody makes a factory lead load in BBB or "T" shot. I have reloaded BBB and "T" lead shot that I got from BPI. These two sizes seem to be perfect for penetration and pellet count in lead pellets.

The heavier than lead, Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote "T" and the Remington Wingmaster HD Predator "T" and the Rem HD Waterfowl BB loads are even better but they are much higher priced.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/17/09 05:17 PM

Excellent information, thanks for taking the time to put that together!
Posted by: windy state

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/30/09 11:56 AM

I got a Midway flyer the other day and Winchester has a new coyote load. It is hevi-shot B's that they say are going 2100fps. That seems a little fast but I was wondering if any one has tryed them. I have been using Winchester lead BB this year and have had good luck so far.I dont think I will change in the middle of season but might see how they group this summer.
Posted by: NKYBOWHUNTER

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/30/09 05:44 PM

What are you Kentucky boys using? I seen that they do not allow for the use of buckshot.
Posted by: bailebr3

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/30/09 10:55 PM

yeah i saw that gander mtn. had some the other day when i was in. i guess we're lucky in bama that we can use buckshot. #4 buck is pretty popular but if we couldnt use it i would go for bb shot.

btw- what chokes are safe for hevi-shot?
Posted by: SnowmanMo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/02/09 09:36 AM

This is a great thread, thanks for all the information. I had been experiencing some strange problems (read as close range misses) with the Dead Coyote shot and the Dead Coyote choke. For some reason when using the load and choke out of my Mossberg 500 the load shoots really high. I have sent a couple of shots right over the backs of coyotes, which is very frustrating. I have ahd no problems with the gun shooting high with other loads and chokes, so I must attribute it to this combination.

Thanks again for the info.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/02/09 08:25 PM

That illustrates exactly why we go to all the trouble to pattern our guns and loads before we hit the field with them. Thanks for telling that story that may save someone else some grief in the future.
Posted by: Rick James

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/25/09 07:25 PM

Anyone have an idea on distance that a good pattern of HD bb's carry enough energy to effectively drop yotes? If you have the pattern at 50-60 yards, will they carry the energy?

I jut picked up 2 boxes of 3" Remington HD BB's to try out of my 870 Supermag Shurshot with a 13" barrel, and an Indian Creek BDS. All post pics when I get to pattern them.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/25/09 07:28 PM

Rick, the HD-BB's have the energy for clean kills at 60 yards. I say that from personal experience. I head shot a coyote looking directly at me and the pellets penetrated the skull with enough force to pop the eyes of that coyote from their sockets. Dead right there! That is not an easy angle for shot to penetrate hard angled bone from. Broadside shots will reach through and tear important stuff up.
Posted by: IMR4320

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/27/09 10:43 PM

Shot a red tonight with a Remington 11-87 SP and a Full Rem Choke (.685" I believe they are) at 25 yards with Remington Express 3" #4 Buckshot. Looks like the fox hasn't even been hit. DRT!
Posted by: howling

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/02/10 07:12 PM

Just my 2 cents but here at home I shoot a lot of steel board targets and I have used about everything in the arsonal different brand guns and different chokes, keep in mind this is only #9 shot but it seems I always get my azz handed to me by the older fellows with the old long barrel guns like Remington 1100 with 30-34 inch barrels and those Remington Wingmaster with the cob forarms everytime. I'm hoping this can tie end with coyote hunting and patterning guns but it's my 2 cents. I just wonder what some of those long barrel guns would do with the ammo your using...just thinking out loud.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/02/10 09:49 PM

It might be interesting. I’ve had two 36” barrel long Tom single shots in the past. One was a 10 gauge and one a 12 gauge, both fixed full choke of course. I’ve also owned two 30” barreled Remington 12 gauge Magnum’s, one an 870 pump and one an 1100, both with fixed full chokes. They were all turkey guns at one time. I do know none of them with their best load would outshoot my current turkey rig with a 24” barrel and choke tubes.
Posted by: howling

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/10 09:07 AM

Those old guns like I was saying Remington and Winchester was the toughest to beat in a steel board shoot no matter what screw in choke I had or any anyone else had everyone at the match will pay high dollar for a good tight gun. I might get lucky and win a money round but the old guns won alot of the times 3-4 straight. When the old guns win the price goes up and hard to afford a gun at the shooting match. Never sell you winning gun. There is a bit of luck like wind at times I get lucky but like I said this is #9 shot but I'm curious about the larger shot size in one of these guns. I been shooting these screw in chokes and many of the other shooters shoot them as well and its amazing to see these remington and winchester doing this good at all the shoots I go to even out of state. They hold a tight pattern, but you can lose by less than 1/4 in these shoots. If I can trade or buy one of these shotguns right I will try the larger shot with pics and post them if I can get one of these shotguns.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/10 01:12 PM

Are those shooting match guns still factory choked? The ones around here have all been "buggy hubbed" or whatever they call it to a tiny choke constriction. I wouldn’t want to slam a magnum load of large shot into one of those teeny tight chokes. Have you tried the special “card shooter” chokes that are offered by several makers? Some of those 12 gauge card shooter chokes go down to .640” and below!
Posted by: howling

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/10 01:32 PM

Your choke can't be tighter than .660 here and people all the time try to bring in sleeved guns but they get caught. People seem to cheat in anything anymore. Specifications say only factory chocked guns only. I have even seen some of these old timers sneak a reloaded ammo into their gun and get caught by switching out the load at the time to shot it. I would be interested in trying one of the older long barreled guns like the Remington 1100 Ducksunlimited with 34 inch barrel for coyote just to pattern it with #4 shot and if it didn't do good I would use it for steel boad anyway. Its been awhile but awhile back we were watching a video od a shotshell fired on a target and it was in slow motion so you could see what the bb's are doing in flight, can't remember the name of the video but it seems that bb's kind of zig zag as it spreads out and the idea is to catch the pattern of the bb's crossing each other...I know there is to much scientific variables to this stuff. This is a great trend you started on shotgun pattern test.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/10 01:41 PM

I don't know much about card shooting. It used to be popular around here. My wife's granddad was into it big time. I think a local VFW Hall still host shoots weekly.

I only began this thread and as you can see a bunch of guys have picked it up and carried it through with more and more info to look over. There are a few trends that seem to be holding fairly constant. The one clear thing is that patterning the gun is VITAL! Without patterning it is like going coyote hunting with a rifle you have never sighted in; you just don’t know where the shot is going to go.
Posted by: howling

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/10 02:13 PM

You got a couple nice shotguns there are they forsale?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/10 02:17 PM

Thanks, but no sir. In fact, I just added a 26" vent rib field barrel to the all black M1. I took it out to pattern it with the new barrel and then dumped some called crows a week or so ago with it. Shoots dead on the bead 50/50 patterns.
Posted by: nocturnal

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/10 09:21 AM

Would like some input from the Mossberg 835 / 935 (24" barrel) shooters. My pet load is Rem. 2 3/4" #4 buck; I like the cost and I'm willing to give up 14 pellets for a little speed; that's just me.

Anyway; I had to have a DC choke and I'm really not that impressed. Don't get me wrong; the pattern is very evenly spread (good thing ?); but, seems that I'm seeing tighter patterns posted here. I'm getting probably 25 of the 27 pellets even spread over a 24" circle +/- at 35 yds +/-. Anyone shooting a Kick's Buttkicker with the same or 3" load ? If so, which one ? I've tried the more open factory chokes and they down right suck with #4's. I realize the ticket is actually the parallel section AND the bore. Or I'm I good to go with this ???

Heck while I got the floor; anybody shooting regular old Win. 2 3/4" lead #2 shot and what choke? I came across a couple boxes real cheap to use on fox.

Thanks in advance !!!
Noc
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/10 10:07 AM

I prefer a center dense pattern for predators and turkeys rather than an evenly distributed pattern like one would use for bird hunting. For wingshooting or small game hunting like running rabbits an even pattern over a 30” circle at 40 yards is the standard for measurement. But turkey and predators are a different game and really that 10” at point of aim is what is critical. With that in mind I personally prefer that 10” inner circle at point of aim to be more saturated with shot than the outer circle of the pattern.

As to your question about the choke, you might call Carlson and see if they would exchange your particular choke for a different constriction until you find a pattern that suits you. Many companies will do that for you. I know that Kick’s, Indian Creek, and Pure Gold will exchange them as long as you pay the shipping. I don’t know if Carlson’s does that or not but it is worth a phone call. Otherwise call Chuck at Kick’s and see what he has to say about it.
Posted by: Rick James

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/10 11:17 AM

Well I patterned my 870 Supermag with a 23" barrel, Indian Creek BDS, and Remington HD BB's 3" at 50 yards this past week. Pattern was less than ideal. I was very well centered, and in a 8" circle I only ended up with 2x pellets. The piece of paper was 10"x14", and I got around 10 pellets on the paper, but the center was very lacking. From what I can read on here, it seems that the Remington barrels like a .670 to .680 constriction with the BB to T shot sizes. Does that seem about right?

Looking around, there doesn't seem to be a lot of options in reasonably priced chokes for Remington in these constrictions. HS does make a "Undertake Hevi" tube though with a .675 constriction, for $15 this looks like a really good option to try out.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0005200655

I've got 2x boxes of the Remington HD 3" BB's now, and really want to find a choke to make these work reliably to 50+ yards, not sure what else is a good option for a tube. Any thoughts on this guys? I don't mind spending more $$$ on a tube, but not sure what else I should be looking at.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/10 11:31 AM

The Jelly Head usually does pretty well. You can't exchange it for other diameters if it doesn't work out though.

Have you thought about calling Indian Creek and explaining the issue to them? I think they will exchange that choke for another if you'd like and are willing to pay shipping cost.
Posted by: Rick James

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/10 12:13 PM

No way I'd swap this Indian Creek. This thing puts 190-210 Hevi 13 #6's into a 10" circle at 40 yards........ thumbup1

This gun is still my primary turkey gun and that Indian Creek setup is quite the turkey killer. I've shot several now between 40-52 yards that hardly even flopped.

I might have to try the Jelly Head, my only concern is that it's the same diameter as the BDS isn't it?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/10 01:14 PM

Agreed about the Indian Creek for turkeys! My M1S90 and IC .665" with the H-13 3-2-6 load does over 200 in 10" at 40 yards! That is a shredder for sure.
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/10 01:18 PM

Rick i would go with a puregold in .670,i now run this in my 870s and my 11-87 and have had good results with the rem hd bb as well as deadcoyote.I am also running the .670 puregold in my browning with good results as well.
The puregold did just ok with 4 buck.
Pure gold also offers a buckshot tube in .696 as well that might be interesting.
I hear ya about the incredable patterns with the ICBDS and the heavy turkey shot,devastating.
I have now delegated the ICBDS tube to strictly turkey use as the puregold produced much better results with larger shot sizes.
I might add the ICBDS tube did not bad with lead 4 buck and i suspect it might do real well with lead BB,s.
Indian creek also offers different constrictions like .673 and such and will also make custom constrictions,something to think about.
I have heard some great reports about patternmaster long range tubes as well,they are the most expensive however.
A few pages back you can see my findings with an 11-87 puregold .670 and rem hd bb to give you a lttle idea of what you might get going that route.
That day i didnt have any 3 inch dead coyote to try but have since shot them through the puregold with similar results to the browning with the 3.5 inch deadcoyote,actually a little better.
I really think any long parallel section choke in .670 to .680 shold produce good patterns.
Yes the jelly head is .665 like the IC tube but i have found that they do produce quite different results in my guns so it may be worth a look.
I also shot a jellyhead with rem hd bb in my testing so theres a little feedback for ya there.
Posted by: mike cook

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/10 07:26 PM

I would like to THANK each and every one of you that have posted or added to this thread. This has got to be the most informative shotgun pattern thread I have ever run across .I have read it from front to back and back to front and learned more in this one thread than in many years of just shooting, myself Keep up the great work and I hope to be able to add some of my findings in the future. THANSKS AGAIN , SUDDENTHUNDER! thumbup1 thumbup1
Posted by: thegunsmith2506

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/10/10 04:28 PM

I figured it was my turn to contribute. Thanks to everyone that has posted! This is an awesone thread!

I went out and did a little patterning today at 61yds. After a few recent misses, I wanted to see what the new loads I am shooting are doing at 50+ yds. I had trouble finding my usual 3.5 #4 Buck this year, so I ended up with a few new loads. I did a quick 40yd pattern test before going out at the first part of the season, but I hadn't done a really good test. I made targets based on the measurments of the last several coyotes I killed. The targets aren't to scale, so the Vitals look a little long. All shots were at 61yds and from my usual sitting position. I wanted to see what my setup does under real hunting conditions. Here is what I found:

SHOTGUN: Tri-Star 12ga 3.5in chamber

MODS: Forcing cone, Dead Coyote choke, bore polished


Shotgun


Load #1:
Federal 2-3/4 #4 Buck 21 Pellet
6 Hits Total 3 In The Vitals


Load #2:
Winchester 3.5in 00 Buck 18 Pellet
7 Hits Total 6 Vitals


Load #3:
Federal 3in 2oz. Copper Plated BB's
19 Hits Total 14 Vital


Load #4:
Winchester 3.5in #4 Buck 54 Pellet
15 Hits Total 9 Vital


Load #5:
Federal High Density 3.5in 1-5/8Oz BB's
31 Hits Total 22 Vitals


Load #6:
Remington Wingmaster HD 3.5in 1-3/4oz BB's
25 Hits Total 23 Vitals
Posted by: thegunsmith2506

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/10/10 05:41 PM

Does anyone know how the Remington HD compares to the Federal HD for penatration? I haven't tested the Federal load, but the Remington load has a lot better penetration at 50yds then #4 lead Buck.
Posted by: AviD

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/11/10 05:13 PM

My latest results...

01/09/2010 - SBE2 *New Barrel* Patterning Results with Pics


A little background...

I went through a series of exhaustive patterning sessions, putting ungodly amounts of money through my SBE2 and not finding any suitable patterns for predator shot (limited to T here in NJ).

I spoke with SBE2 and sent my gun back to them twice for factory testing.
I don't want to get into the details, but being I had to send it back twice is an indication the first time wasn't satisfactory (patterning done at 20 yards...yes 20 yards).

Anyway, Benelli sent the gun back with a new barrel, so I had to hit the range and re-pattern again. Worth noting, they also include a larger front bead to compensate for the high POI vs POA.

Below are the results of my first session with the new barrel.



Conditions:
-----------
Temperature 15-25F
Clear, sunny skies
Moderate winds 10-15mph


Shooting Details:
-----------------
Benelli SBE2/SBEII with C shim installed for lowest POI possible with stock shims.
Benelli's included larger front bead to further compensate for a high POI vs POA.
Gun barrel and previously used chokes cleaned and buffed with a power drill, copper brush, and solvent. Action cleaned and lightly oiled.
Bore snake with very light amount of solvent run through the gun between every single shot. Visually verified no debris or buildup in the barrel between shots. If seen, additional runs of the bore snake

until clean.

All shots taken from a leadSled off a table.
Patterning sheets are roughly 3'x3'
3" targets put on center of all patterning paper sheets.
All shot alignment was overlaying the center bead, front bed, and 3" target in 3 concentric circles with a flush view to the rear sight shelf of the barrel, i.e. the target is essentially covered by the

beads.

Below patterns are ONLY the ones I kept, all others were simply insufficient for hunting.


Chokes Tested:
------------------
.660 Rhino 2" Extended (Ported)
.660 Primos Jelly Head Choke Tube (Ported)
.665 Cabela's Choke Tubes for Hevi-Shot Turkey Super Full (Non Ported)
.675 Cabela's Choke Tubes for Hevi-Shot Turkey Extra Full (Non Ported)
.685 Kicks Ind Buck Kicker Full (Ported)
.695 HS Undertaker Hevi-shot (Ported)
Benelli Stock Modified
Benelli Stock Full



Shotshells:
-----------
Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote 12 3 1/2" T
Remington Wingmaster HD RW1235VT 12 3 1/2" 1350 1 5/8 T
Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote 12 3" T
Remington Wingmaster HD RW12VT 12 3" 1300 1 1/2 T
Remington Wingmaster HD RW12HMB 12 3" 1300 1 1/2 BB
Federal Premium Ultra-Shok™ High-Density™ 12 3-1/2" 1450 1-5/8 BB




Predator Shot Results (Subset of best shots):
---------------------------------------------

.665 Cabela's Choke Tubes for Hevi-Shot Turkey Super Full (Non Ported)
3.5" Remington Wingmaster HD BB
40 yards
Notes: Pretty impressive pattern for this gun honestly. One of the few decent ones with all of the aftermarket chokes I have and tried over the last 2 years.



.685 Kicks Ind Buck Kicker Full (Ported)
3" Dead Coyote
40 yards
Notes: A nice solid pattern with a high POI and a little right heavy, but nice clustering.



Benelli Stock Full Choke #1
3.5" Dead Coyote
40 yards
Notes: Very solid pattern, probably the best I've seen out of this gun ever for predator shot. Sadly and ironically, despite having like 15 aftermarket chokes, I get the best with the stock full.



Benelli Stock Full Choke #2
3.5" Dead Coyote
40 yards
Notes: Not quite as good as the first but acceptable I think. Worth noting, I didn't anticipate shooting the stock full, just did it on the fly. So the choke was dirty, not polished. I think once

polished it will likely shoot even better.



Benelli Stock Full Choke
3.5" Dead Coyote
50 yards
Notes: Given the 40 yard patterns, I wanted to try this combo at 50 yards to see how it did. Not mind blowing, but pretty decent considering the shot distance and adventure I've been on with this gun. Obviously a high POI, which is how this gun seems to be.





Predator Shot Conclusions:
--------------------------
I think the new barrel has definitely made a huge difference in the overall patterns. At least now I have some legitimate options.
I think the stock full pattern (shot #1) is very solid. Not sure what's up with #2's variance, could be shell variance or the dirty choke?
I also think the 50 yard pattern of the stock full is doable for predators.

I'd still like to do some more testing to tune it some more, but I have an insane amount of money already in this gun, I really don't know how much more I want to invest.
I'm probably going to plan out one more session to go through the leftover ammo I have, and hunt with the stock full this season.
Looking back on that Kicks Full pattern, I think the Kicks should be tested a bit more.

I also want to play with more open chokes with this gun in that full choke range, which I believe is .695? Can anyone verify?
I have a .695 Kicks Light Full Ported, which is likely worth a shot.
The .695 HS Undertaker Hevi-shot didn't fair so well though in this session with any shells.
Also have a .695 Cabela's Hevi-shot Full (Non Ported), which given the .665 pattern with BB...might be worthwhile with the T.



*********************************************************************
*****************
**********************************************************************


Random Buckshot Results:
------------------------
.660 Rhino 2" Extended (Ported)
3.5" Remington 00
50 yards
Notes: I also shot this combo at 40 yards because it was the best buckshot combo with the old barrel. The 40 yards pattern was tighter than this and on par with my previous barrel's results. I think this

is a pretty acceptable 50 yard pattern for deer. The POI is off a little (could be me, head alignment or the gun) but it looks like 8+ pellets in a reasonable kill zone for a deer if the POI is adjusted.


Here is the previous barrel and 40 yard pattern with this combo.




Buckshot Conclusions:
---------------------
I think the same combo I used before looks pretty solid for this new barrel. I didn't focus on buckshot testing at all really, just wanted to verify it was reasonable still. I don't often hunt with

buckshot, but when I do, I'd like to know it's hitting where I want.




Overall:
--------

What do you guys think?

Posted by: Kioti_Driver

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/11/10 07:51 PM

Dang! I really like the buckshot pattern. Wish my 870 gave me results like that. Buckshot is way cheaper and your putting a bunch of .33 cal pellets right in the boiler room. That's gotta leave a mark! thumbup
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/11/10 07:56 PM

AvidD,
Did you shoot multiple shots and average your patterns or just one shot for each?
Posted by: AviD

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/11/10 09:14 PM

GC,

Given the price of ammo and the number of chokes I try, I generally shoot just one unless the shot dictates a second look.

My line of thinking is, if it doesn't shoot good (I mean you'd never consider hunting with it at all) for one shot, that's enough for me to never take it afield.

I don't ever want to worry about my first shot not having "enough" to make the kill, but on the same token I do understand there is shell variance and patterns are never identical.

Of my recent patterns, which do you like best?

I think the BB offers more forgiveness from shear number of pellets but I'm leaning toward the T shot for getting the most punch against the eastern yotes.
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/12/10 09:57 AM

Avid,nice work on the testing.
I like your dead coyote pattern as well as rem hd bb patterns.
I think both will work good on called coyotes.
I have found that my guns shoot dead coyote and rem hd bb well so i choose to shoot both,fully confident shooting either one.
Sometimes i can get one and not the other here.
I think you will find that the rem hd bb hits just as hard as the dead coyote.
I have shot coyotes with both rounds with equally great results.Broadside passthroughs,broken legs,shoulder joints,spinal colums and fully penetrating head shots.
I wouldnt worry to much about the rem hd bb not haveing the umpf for eastern yotes,it crushes them good.
Posted by: bailebr3

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/12/10 10:10 AM

i can tell you the 3" dead coyote works GREAT!! this coyote dropped on the spot and i had ALOT of pellets in the vitals but, the shot was around 25yrds. one thing though, a few pellets penetrated into and thru the spine, hence the drop at the shot. the pic you see shows two bloody spots on his side, let me tell you it was pretty much like two big .44 holes along with pellets everywhere else.

Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/12/10 12:19 PM

AvidD,
Here is the set I like the best, lay this on a coyote and he is in trouble...

Benelli Stock Full Choke #1
3.5" Dead Coyote
40 yards
Notes: Very solid pattern, probably the best I've seen out of this gun ever for predator shot. Sadly and ironically, despite having like 15 aftermarket chokes, I get the best with the stock full.
Posted by: hm1996

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/12/10 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
AvidD,
Here is the set I like the best, lay this on a coyote and he is in trouble...

Benelli Stock Full Choke #1
3.5" Dead Coyote
40 yards
Notes: Very solid pattern, probably the best I've seen out of this gun ever for predator shot. Sadly and ironically, despite having like 15 aftermarket chokes, I get the best with the stock full.


GC:

Still working on finding satisfactory combination for my Benelli SGE using the .685" factory choke. Switched stock shims and got my pattern better centered, but so far not satisfied w/ four 40 yd. hits in 8" w/3 1/2" both SuperX 4B and Rem. 3" Mag 4B. (The only two buckshot loads I can get locally.)

Pattern is still just a tad low so plan to try one more shim and see if can center pattern a bit better. Given perfectly centered pattern, would have had 5 hits w/3 1/2" and 8 w/3".

What does the Benelli FC#1 measure? How did it do w/standard #4 buck?

Thanks for starting this great thread! I am just beginning to realize the amount of time/effort you (and others) have put into this project thumbup1.

Regards,
hm
Posted by: Rick James

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/15/10 02:08 PM

Just ordered the Dead Coyote choke and the HS Undertaker Hevi .675 for my 870 Supermag. I'm hoping to have some updates for you guys next weekend on the results. I'm pretty set on using the 3" HD BB load, so I'm going to try and find the right choke to make them really shoot well.

If these don't perform the way I want, I'll be trying the Pure Gold next. I just couldn't quite stomach the price of the Pure Gold, the HS was only $15, and the DC was only $26 through Midsouth. Figured I'd try them first before trying the pure gold.
Posted by: njshadowwalker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/10 04:29 PM

I have a question after reading every one of these pages....Before I risk damaging the choke.... I shoot an 1187 supermag, 28" barrel with a patternmaster extended, black ported choke with OO buckshot for deer in certain spots. Its a freaking tack driver out to 70 yards with 13 of 18 pellets finding vitals.

However NJ laws say that at night, I cannot shoot buckshot for coyotes. It has to be between 4 and T. Thus ive been shooting Federals heavyweight coyote in a 3" BB load configuration.

Can the federal BB load in 3" be shot through the patternmaster without damage? Or will the fact that its a choke for 3 1/2" shell wads effect performance?

How do you guys suppose it would work on the 3 1/2" DC loads?

Thanks for any insight!
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/25/10 04:44 PM

That 3 inch bb load can be shot through the patternmaster no problum.
I think you will find the patternmaster handles the 3.5 inch
deadcoyote load very well.
Still however dont take my word for it,you really need to go out and do some patterning.
Patterning will open up your eyes to what is really going on.
It also make you a better hunter giving you the coinfidence to make the shot count when you really need it.
In my opinion there is nothing worse than wondering if the gun your carrying is up to the task at hand.
Eliminate all the variables you can cause out there, theres a whole bunch you cant,those are the ones you need to concern yourself with, not the ones you can.
Posted by: windy state

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/10 02:07 PM

I would like to reload my own shells for dog hunting. Do you guys know of any place I can get the shot at. I looked at Midway but they dont have much in the bigger shot sizes.
Posted by: T Murphy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/10 11:05 PM

I've been looking thru this post and am fascinated by all the different chokes out there. I am new to shotgunning coyotes, I've always used my 220 Swift or AR-15 for predator hunting. I had a friend invite me to go coyote hunting in the morning and he said I needed to bring a shotgun he has a few coyotes in the cedars by hishouse feeding on a dead cow carcass, and it's really thick. So I have a question regarding chokes for my Mossburg 835 ultimag, I currently only have the stock Mod, Kicks Mod, and the Kicks Extra Full choke tubes. I also have the Primos Jelly Head tube. What would my best choke be for the Federal Premium 3in #4 Buckshot, and the HeviShot Dead Coyote 3 1/2 in T shot?
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/29/10 10:13 AM

T Murphy,you need to take those chokes and loads and do some patterning to be sure.
None of us can tell you whats going to be best,for what works in one guys gun may not work in the next mans.
Shotguns are very individuale in the way they peform,patterning is a must.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/29/10 11:14 AM

Originally Posted By: ontario_caller
T Murphy,you need to take those chokes and loads and do some patterning to be sure.
None of us can tell you whats going to be best,for what works in one guys gun may not work in the next mans.
Shotguns are very individuale in the way they peform,patterning is a must.


Spot on! To not pattern your shotgun, chokes, and loads is like not sighting in your deer rifle, scope, and load before the big deer hunt of the year. Just doesn't make sense...
Posted by: T Murphy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/29/10 12:46 PM

Now that I'm back from my morning coyote hunt with my first coyote with a shotgun. Maybe I'll get to the range today to do just that.
Posted by: Dultimatpredator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/10 09:38 AM

I finally picked up a .670 Kicks last year after reading all the posts above along with Rem's 3" HD BB's. I have to say its the best grouping combo out of my Beretta A390! I received 8 pellets in a 6" circle at 50 yards and 6 with my cheap favorite "3" copper plated Federal BB's" Not bad compaired to "1" at that range with my best old choke "dead coyote". I picked up a .680 Kicks from one of our posters and get 6 pellets of 3" Winchester #4 buck at 50 yards as well. The .680 gave 2 less pellets of each load listed above at 50 yards.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/10 12:14 PM

Thanks for that report! That is useful info and appreciated. Glad it is working for you.
Posted by: thegunsmith2506

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/10 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: windy state
I would like to reload my own shells for dog hunting. Do you guys know of any place I can get the shot at. I looked at Midway but they dont have much in the bigger shot sizes.


try these guys
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/
Posted by: windy state

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/03/10 12:07 PM

Thanks gunsmith
Posted by: Sparrowhawk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/07/10 05:35 PM

Originally Posted By: T Murphy
Now that I'm back from my morning coyote hunt with my first coyote with a shotgun. Maybe I'll get to the range today to do just that.


So what load, choke did you use and how far off the muzzle was it when you took the shot.
Posted by: NY Yote hunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/16/10 01:39 PM

This season I have been using a Mossberg 500 with 3 inch dead coyote loads in T shot. I patterned the load and had very nice patterns up to 50 yards. I went to gander mountain yesterday to buy another box, I am almost out and have a big contest this weekend and saw that they are sold out!!! So after reading this thread I am going to buy the Remington HD BB and pattern it. I will post my results later on.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/20/10 11:28 AM

My friend patterned 3" Remington wingmaster bb yesterday. This was the pattern from a IM choke at 40 yards. I drew a 12 inch circle around the center of the pattern. 26 hits. this would be prmarily a fox load. I think it's decent but could be better. He's going to try some more loads. What do you think?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/20/10 01:11 PM

I think he needs more choke...
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/24/10 10:13 AM

Do you guys think rem wingmaster #2's would make a good red fox load. Putting together my ammo list to pattern. Going to try some b, bb and T in multiple brands and shot charges. The #2's should be easier to pattern. At least it generally is when I pattern waterfowl loads. I'm going stick with the high density loads for now. May be too optimistic but hoping to find a 50 yard load. I used to have a 50 yard load with dead coyote and it was a great advantage for when they hang up.
Posted by: Twistrate

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/10 11:05 AM

I've shot #4 buck since it was legal here in IL. Picked up some DC the other day for grins and giggles just to try. Guys with the Wincester 1300's with 22" turkey barrels this is for you. All shots @ 40yds. 3 shot AV. Hits on a 12" circle. #4 Buck is Winchester 2 3/4 load. Dead Coyote is 3"..12ga.
#4 Buck skeet choke 0 hits
DC skeet choke 0 hits
#4 Buck .665 truglo AV 9 hits
DC .665 truglo AV 12 hits
I tested the skeet choke because I never tried it before. 2 interesting things to note. The DC could have done better, very "clumpy". Maybe too much choke. What really fascinated me was the #4 buck would 90% of time completely pass through the 2X4 frame (on its side). DC never passed through. Contradicted some tests here. I'm sure density had something to do with it.
Great thread
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/10 12:43 PM

You had No. Four Buck completely pass through 1 1/2" pine? That is interesting. I've used my fingers only to pull it from 3/4" sanded and filled finish plywood at 50 yards. It was just sitting in the wood smashed out of shape and I just plucked it right out.
Posted by: Twistrate

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/10 01:11 PM

We need to shoot some bones to settle this. Apples-Apples. Anyone?
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/10 03:16 PM

Maybe the 2x4 frame was suffering from dry rot. lol
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/10 04:46 PM

Honestly, I think that hard surfaced plywood would be tougher to penetrate than a soft pine 2x4 turned on the 1 1/2" side. I know that is twice as much wood, but those framing pine 2x4's are pretty soft. That high grade plywood filled and sanded on one side is pretty danged hard on the surface. Who knows really... I know they both kill coyotes just fine within reasonable ranges and considering a good pattern.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/10 04:54 PM

Did some patterning today. I used a benelli nova 12 gauge with an extended range patternmaster and a primos dead dog choke (.675 constriction). The ammo I patterned was
Winchester coyote B, 1 3/8 oz, 3"
Rem wingmaster T, 1 1/2 oz, 3"
Rem wingmaster BB, 1 1/2 oz, 3"
Rem wingmaster 2, 1 3/8 oz, 3"
too many pics too post. I ended up shooting all the ammo. I'm searching for a 50 yard load for fox. Not convinced I found it yet. At 40 yards 3 types of ammo patterned well out of at least one of the chokes. Wingmaster T out of the patternmaster seemed to be the best. At 40 yards I consistently got 18 pellets in a 10" circle. At 50 yards I consistently got 11 pellets in a 10" circle. I don't think 11 is enough for fox just because they are so small. Maybe I'm wrong. Any opinions?The thing I liked about the wingmaster T is I would get the exact amount of pellets in the circle everytime. Very consistent. I didn't get that with the Wingmaster bb for some reason. The BB varied from 18 pellets to 6 in a 10" circle and the poi was off in both chokes. I used large sheets of paper and a led sled type gun rest to take out as much human error as possible.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/10 07:22 PM

I'm thinking the wngmaster #2's would be an ideal fox load because of the pellet count. Out of both chokes it had a big empty area in the center of the pattern. This would mean it is over choked, correct?I'm going to pick up some more and try my mossberg 930. I have a briley improved modified, light modified and the stock chokes.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/05/10 01:03 PM

Did some patterning with some more wingmaster bb 1 1/2 oz and wingmaster 2, 1 3/8 oz using a mossberg 930 with briley IM, LM, stock full and mod. Best I came up with was the BB at 50 yards. 13 hits in an 8" circle, 15 hits in 10".
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/05/10 03:27 PM

Takem,that patternmaster and the rem hd t shot sounds like it would be a great coyote killer.
Like you stated it may be a little open for fox but looks like good coyote medicine.
Id use it.
Fox are really soft and seem to die easy,i think that you might have good luck with a #4 heavi shot turkey load,that should provide you with the pattern density your looking for and i think that heavi 4s shold do the trick at anchoring a fox no problum.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/05/10 05:05 PM

Turkey loads might be worth a try Ontario Caller. I picked up another box of wingmaster 2 in a different shot charge, 1 1/4 oz. I'll try something different each time I go to the range. I don't think I'll find that magical 50 yard load for fox but I'll try to find a devastating 40 yard. I don't think the bb in the pic is any good. Huge holes in the pattern in the brown paper. It won't be consistent. Ordered a bunch of parts for my rem 870. If I get it working good I'll try it too. I have a Remington turkey xtra full for it but it says lead only so I probably shouldn't shoot high density loads out of it. I got some really good patterns out to 50 yards using lead turkey loads out of it. So far I'm getting better patterns out of tighter chokes with the high density. Maybe i'll order a choke.
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/06/10 08:46 AM

Takem,if your going to order a choke i have had my best results from a puregold .670 choke in both my remington and my brownings.
It seems that chokes in the .670 to .680 constrictions for most shotguns,outside of overbored mossbergs tends to be the best.
I think the primos deaddog choke is.675 and kicks makes a .680,i know others here have had good luck with both those chokes.
I want to try something myself in the .675 to .680 range in the future to see if i can improve on my currant setups,though i am happy with the performance of the .670 puregold.
This kind of testing becomes addicting and becomes a never ending search for a better wheel but hey we all like shooting guns and i really enjoy pattern testing,its fun not to mention very interesting.
Shotguns are like women,no two are exactly the same and finding one that you really like is never that easy.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/06/10 01:22 PM

Thanks Ontario caller. I've spent a lot of time patterning steel for ducks but this is much tougher. I would like to find out the constriction on the dead coyote chokes. They seem pretty popular and the price is right. I would think it falls somewhere in the .670-.680 range. It would be nice to get some good patterns out of my 870 because I don't use it for anything so I could put a thumb hole/pistol grip turkey stock on it and have a dedicated fox gun.
Posted by: alfonso

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/16/10 08:59 PM

what do you all think about using "steel" shot for coyote. I know steel usually comes in faster FPS. does it have enough energy to drop 'em? I have lots of BBB, and #3 shot, is that good enough as well? (in steel)
Posted by: Jack Roberts

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/17/10 01:15 AM

Steel is the absolutely worst thing you can shoot.

Jack
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/18/10 11:44 AM

Generally speaking steel isn't a great choice. At closer ranges that fast steel with large pellets could get the job done. However, at longer ranges it lacks the density for good penetration on animals as large and tough as coyotes. There are MUCH better choices available.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/20/10 03:11 PM

Steel shot is bad news, un-plated lead is better, copper plated better than un-plated, nickle plated is even better.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/21/10 10:21 PM

Some more Benelli patterning info from VOLCREW...

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...mp;#Post1564898
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/29/10 06:05 PM

Got my 870 fixed and put a dead coyote choke in it. Don't know what the constriction is but I can't fit my choke wrench in it. Same wrench fits in my xtra full turkey choke. Got my best patterns yet. I think I finnaly found the elusive 50 yard load. I'll do more testing over the summer. This will be for red fox. Wingmaster #2's, 3", 1 1/4 0z. I also tried it in 1 3/8 oz but didn't get good results with that. With the 1 1/4 oz I was getting 25 pellets in a 10 inch circle at 50 yards. Surprisingly I was only getting a few more pellets in the pattern at 40. It was pretty consistent. I did find that a dirty gun does not pattern as well. Quick swipe with the cleaning rod and it was fine. Have you guys found the wingmaster ammo to be consistent from box to box? I'll pattern one out out of each box I buy to be sure. Price seems to of come down. 18 bucks a box.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/10 12:40 PM

Looks like you have a winner, congrat's on taking the time to find a good combination. Most guns do pattern better from a clean bore vs. a fouled one. Generally they'll shoot well enough for a half dozen or maybe ten shots but then for best results they need a cleaning before the next hunt. So far for me the Wingmaster HD-BB's have been very consistent, but once I found the magic combo I then bought ten boxes and they all came from the same lot number. So, I honestly don't have another lot to compare them to... yet. smile
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/16/10 08:45 PM

I bought another box of the wingmaster that patterned good. I noticed the new shells are crimped differently. I'm guessing it will pattern different. I'll try to get to the range this weekend. If it does pattern different I'm going to pull my hair out. I'm seriously going to throw a hissy fit and cry.
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/17/10 09:11 AM

I too will be going back to the patterning board myself.
I have on the way three new chokes coming from pure gold.
Tesing will be done on a pure gold .670,.680,.696 and an extended modified water fowl choke as well as a carlsons dead coyote tube.All loads will be shot through a browning maxus invector + chokes 3.5 inch chamber.

Currantly i am still waiting on my ammo order but i have the following coming to test out.
Remington 3"hd bb
Remington 3.5"hd bb
Hevi shot deadcoyote 3" T
Hevi shot deadcoyote 3.5" T
Winchester 3" B extended range coyote load
Winchester 3.5" superx #4 buck
Winchester 2.75" superx #4 buck.

I wanted to also test out the remington hd T shot,The new federal hd bb coyote with flight control wad and the hornady #4 buck as well but my suppliers could not get them for me at this time.

The federal heavyweight coyote bb load with flight control looks really interesting,i was hopeing to get my hands on some to test but unfortunatly the load has not been passed at this point by enviroment canada as a non toxic load so i cant get any right now.My dealer told me however that it will pass and be available in canada in the future,right now its tied up in red tape.Bummer.

When all the supplies arrive and i get some free time over the summer i will do some patterning and post up my results.
I am excited to see the results of some new and old loads through some new choke constrictions. I have high hopes for winchesters new extended range B load,thats really the only new load i will be testing.
All the others are all ready proven performers that may or may not perform better better through some new constrictions not previously tested by myself.
Hopefully i find something close to perfection this time around.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/17/10 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Takem
I bought another box of the wingmaster that patterned good. I noticed the new shells are crimped differently. I'm guessing it will pattern different. I'll try to get to the range this weekend. If it does pattern different I'm going to pull my hair out. I'm seriously going to throw a hissy fit and cry.


big relief. Patterned the same. Also got some great turkey load patterns out of the dead coyote choke.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/19/10 07:06 AM

Ontariocaller, I got some decent 40 yard patterns with the win extended range b. It seems like it would make a good fox load for me. I tried it with my nova/patternmaster. I'll have to give it a try in my 870/dead coyote choke. I like that they sell it in a 5 shell box. Easier on the wallet if it doesn't work out.
Posted by: hm1996

Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 05/14/10 11:26 PM

Finally got everything together and made it to the range today to do some pattern testing of my Benelli SBE w/Carlson Hevi-shot Dead Coyote choke (measures .660”)

Shot Remington and Fiocchi 2 ¾” #4 Buck



Federal Coyote Heavyweight and Winchester Lead Game Load 3” BB, Remington Magnum Buckshot,& Federal Premium Copper Plated 3” #4 Buck






And Winchester SuperX Magnum 3 ½” #4 Buck




May have to break down and add an optical sight but all shooting today was from sitting position off shooting sticks with the standard fiber optic front bead at 40 and 50 yards. Had planned to shoot 25 yards but didn’t get to it.

Targets have a 6” black center and measure 10.5” square and were placed on a 34” square backer.

Target pictures to follow.

Posted by: hm1996

Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 05/14/10 11:26 PM

All targets have a 6” black center and measure 10.5” square and were placed on a 34” square backer.
40 yard targets:

Remington 2 3/4" #4 Buck: 6 hits in black, 14 on center, 26 total:


Fiocchi 2 3/4" #4 BK: 5 hits on center, 21 total:


Winchester Game Load 3" BB: 18 hits in black, 33 hits on center, 78 hits total:



Federal 3' Cp Plt. #4 BK: 3 hits in black, 10 on center, 38 total:


Federal Coyote Heavyweight 3" BB: 7 in black, 28 center,46 total:


Remington 3" Mag. #4 Buck: 5 in black, 15 center, 38 total:


Winchester produced the better 50 yard targets:
Winchester Lead Game Load 3" #4 BK: 6 hits in black, 17 in center, 51 total:



Winchester Super X 3 1/2" #4 BK: 4 hits in black, 9 on center, 41 total:


Regards,
hm
Posted by: GC

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 05/15/10 12:04 PM

Good contribution, thanks!
Posted by: John Brent Roy

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 06/16/10 05:01 PM

Process on buying a Browning Silver Lightning 12ga. 28" modified chock with three Invector-Plus™ choke tubes. Been shooting Brownings since I was 17. So what is the best size of shotgun shells I can buy to add this to my stands?
Posted by: yuccabush

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 06/18/10 05:32 PM

Anyone tried the Mad dogpounder choke by Indian Creek shooting systems?
Posted by: GC

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 06/19/10 12:22 PM

No experience with the choke you asked about yucca, however, Indian Creek makes the best turkey choke on the market. It wouldn't surprise me if the Indian Creek predator chokes in the right constriction wouldn't shoot at least as well as anything else. I have a couple of Black Diamond Strike chokes and have done a ton of patterning turkey loads and just a little shooting with predator loads. What little bit of predator load testing I've done looks very encouraging. I need to make some time to really wring them out with some tungsten predator loads.
Posted by: yuccabush

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/03/10 05:23 PM

Ok I will say that in the real world I would never take this shot. It is just to easy to get on the rifle. But at the range here is the results from the Mad Dog pounder fired at 70 yards from an 870 supermag turkey with a 23 inch barrel.
.710 constriction.

Dead coyote 3.5":


Win 3.5" 4buck:

Well I cannot get the photos to show up very well. I do like the results at 50 and 60 yards with the 3.5 dead coyote t. We also tested the same choke in a 870mag with various 3 inch loads. It was very impressive at fifty yards with Federal premium 3 inch 4 buck.
Posted by: GC

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/03/10 09:16 PM

Looks pretty thin right now... lol. Work on those pic's! wink
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/05/10 03:50 PM

Originally Posted By: hm1996
Federal Coyote Heavyweight 3" BB: 7 in black, 28 center,46 total:


Regards,
hm


I think you may be overchoking that load....

I'll repost my findings on this load.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/05/10 04:03 PM

(My report - reposted from another board)

I've been intrigued with this load since it's introduction last year.
Since I have nothing better to do I dropped the coins and thought I'd give it a whirl.




Federal Premium VShok 1 1/2 oz BB Heavyweight (Tungsten) @ 1350 fps
The key component here is Federal's FlightControl wad.





Now this stuff ain't cheap. At $4.80 a round, I was thinking there is no way in [beeep] this could be worth it.
One of the problems we face here in Oklahoma is that we are limited by shot size restrictions for hunting. The regulations state that nothing larger than BB can be used to hunt. That rules out "T" shot (Dead Coyote) and #4 buck.

I have had success in the past with Remington HD BB, and limited success with lead BB and HD #2. I have also had the experience of having to shoot a coyote multiple times to keep em down, although the HD BB put them down and kept them down the best.
HD BB runs over $2.00 a round. Emptying your magazine at the limits of your patterns range can cost money.

On to the tests.

I contacted Fedral Ammunition and they recommended a full choke for this load. In the past I had used various turkey chokes and a Carlson's Dead Coyote choke to pattern with various results. Because of the nature of the FlightControl wad, a tighter choke "strips" the wad away from the shot, so the more "open" chokes are recommended.

45 yds Federal Heavyweight Coyote 8.5 inch paper plate Remington FULL choke



At first I was impressed with the pellets on target. This was for sure a dead coyote. But after further review I asked myself "Where the [beeep] did the rest of the pellets go?"
It was obvious that the pattern was not optimal.
So I switched to a modified.


45 yds Federal Heavyweight Coyote 8.5 inch paper plate Remington MOD choke



These results were much better with a more uniform pattern. Actually, it was exactly what I was looking for.
It was similar to 40 yards patterns that I had tested last year with Rem HD BB and tight turkey chokes. At 45 yds, my patterns with the Rem HD were really starting to fall apart. (Sorry, no pics.)

You can compare that to this pattern though.

45 yds Winchester SuperX 1 5/8 ounce lead BB Remington MOD choke


At this point I was out of ammo. I had to adjust my point of aim on previous shots to center the patterns. My shotgun was obviously shooting to the right, although the above pics were taken with an adjusted POA.
Here's what the patterns were like without an adjusted point of aim.

45 yards Federal VShok Heavyweight Coyote Rem MOD choke (Non adjusted point of aim)



As you can see above, the pattern is excellent, but the bead sight is off a little. This is the other reason why you must pattern your shot. Each shotgun is different. It is in your best interests to know what your gun does regarding patterns and POA/POI.

Out of ammo and the shotgun is shooting to the right.
The first problem was easy- order more ammo.
The second problem involved combing the internets for advice.




While I awaited more ammo, I hit various forums for advice.
My thanks to Ulysses at ShotgunWorld for the simple solution.

With the POI being slightly right, the simple solution was to get my cheekweld slightly left. I accomplished this by wrapping my stock with some nylon paracord.
This fix corrected the POI to the left where I wanted it, but also moved the POI up as you will see below. I can adjust bead placement on the target to remedy this.

The ammo came in and I was wondering about different distances to the target.
All of my longer range shots were taken sitting in my coyote hunting position, with my knees up and weakside forearm resting on my knee.
I decided to spend $4.80 on a standing 25 yard shot at a 6 inch coffee can lid.
This picture shows the lid, my shotgun's stock wrap, and a FlightControl wad from previous testing.



That is one very messed up 25 yard coyote!!!

I did three more rounds from a distance of 55 yards. This was beyond my comfortable range with Remington HD.
Here's a picture of the pattern.

52 yards Federal Premium VShok Heavyweight Coyote Remington MOD choke 6 inch coffee can lid



As you can see, it's an excellent pattern, although the POI is slightly high. I can adjust for that.
The shotgun is a Remington 870 Express Tactical with the 18 inch RemChoke barrel.

My final thought is that this ammo is phenomenal. It carrys tungsten alloy BB down range faster and harder than Remington HD BB, and patterns much better at range also.
I will be using this ammo this fall in areas where "Shotgun Only" restricts me from using a rifle. I will also be carrying lead BB for finishing shots if necessary.

Remember, YMMV. You won't know what your shotgun's capabilities are until you test it. It can mean the difference between success and failure in the field.
Good luck all and thanks for reading.


Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/06/10 09:39 AM

Great post crazyhorse,very interesting.
Thanks for shareing with us.
Posted by: hm1996

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/06/10 01:00 PM

Thanks, Crazyhorse, I'll have to try a different choke on the Federal.

Regards,
hm
Posted by: Jeff V

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/07/10 09:25 PM

Did my first patterning of the gun today, Turns out i bought the gobble stopper choke for a 835/935 and not a 500/maverick so all I had to work with was the full accuchoke.

I only shot one load remmington 3" #4 buck (41 pellets) and I shot it at 40 yards. Both shots were fired at a measured 40 yards from a seated position out of a 28" barreled Mossberg Maverick 88 with a full choke.





got 5 pellets in both shots, It would kill a yote i think, but not consistently and its not enough for me to feel comfortable at 40 yards. 30 yards I think this set up would be fine. I am going to pick up a box of of the HD BB's and try that. Id like to use this choke (only cost me 3.99 at dicks when i bought the wrong turkey choke) but I am not gonna throw a ton of ammo at it and not get it to pattern.
Posted by: GC

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/08/10 01:28 PM

Crazyhorse,
Great report. I'd be really interested what an Improved Modified choke would do for you, an in between Mod and Full constrictions. And you are right on about the Flite Control wad Federal uses, it can be a bear to find a sweet spot with. If a person can work that out, that should be a super killer load!
Posted by: Jeff V

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/09/10 07:11 PM

I was searching for a yote load that I could test since I was out of 4buck and no one had it around here, I was looking for anything between 2's and 4 buck that wasnt steel. This was the absolute only thing I could find and it was on sale so I bought it.

[img]http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Ammunition/Shotshells/hd-ammo-prod.ashx[/img]

SO i snagged it up it was about $15 per 10 rounds. Its the same stuff as the wingmaster HD, BB shot, and a 2-3/4" black shell

I also bought a Tighter choke since the mossberg full choke was not enough. I got a primos Tight Wad choke its a .660 constriction and it is screwed into my Mossberg Maverick 88 with a 28" barrel.

Hung the paper plate, wheeled off 40 yards with my measuring wheel, popped 3 in the chamber and took shot one, went and got it and almost didnt shoot the other 2 but decided to to check for consistency.

Plate one had 19 hits, plate 2 had 20 hits plate 3 had 24 hits.

Pic of plate 2


I am pretty happy, now I just have to go back and buy the other 6 boxes that were on the shelf. Thankfully It only took me 2 chokes and 2 loads to find where I wanted to be with my gun.

As far as penetration goes it went through the 3/4" hardwood plywood no problem, Ill test it on some phone books maybe this weekend.
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/10/10 08:29 AM

Jeff V i couldnt use the link provided but i am very interested in that load,nice results.
Could you by any chance post a pic of the shell and the box they came in showing the model # of that shell.

Thanks Jeff

Cliff
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: Benelli SBE/Carlson HS Dead Coyote Choke Pattern Test - 07/10/10 08:35 AM

Jeff i just saw your other post about the home defense load.
Now i no which one it is,no need to post pics.

Cliff
Posted by: ghdfans2010

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/11/10 08:26 PM

Good job GC and thanks for all the information.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/12/10 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: ghdfans2010
Good job GC and thanks for all the information.


This is a gathering place for the OCD shotgunner! LOL... there are a lot of post with a bunch of solid information and experiences under the roof here. Congrat's go out to all the contributors.
Posted by: beagler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/18/10 10:14 AM

Any of you gentlemen have any Benelli SBE II pattern results. I just ordered one a couple days ago and picked up a Dead Coyote Choke for it. Sorry if I missed any past threads/posts on the SBE II.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/18/10 12:44 PM

The SBE II has the same bore size as my M1S90 guns so results should be basically the same given individual variances between guns.
Posted by: Wackmaster

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/27/10 12:03 PM

Great post! I spent a couple hours reading it and will no doubt go over it again.
I just bought a Benelli Vinci with a 24" brl and am looking for information on the bore size and a few good chokes to start patterning.
From all the reading I will start with the Remington 3" T and BB as well as the Hornady #4 buck VX. It came with 5 crio chokes but the full choke is marked "no steel" would it cause a problem shooting any of the above mentioned shells? The modified choke is marked "steel ok" so I will test pattern the loads with it. What type of restriction would be a good place to start and which choke manufactures?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/27/10 12:36 PM

I think the Vinci has a .735" bore. The "sweet spot" usually is found somewhere within .050" - .065" of constriction. Math will do the rest, a good starting place would be a choke around .680" or there'bouts.
Posted by: Wackmaster

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/27/10 01:22 PM

I just talked with the Carlson guys and the DC choke for the Benelli is .665". Does that sound over choked?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/27/10 09:00 PM

That's .070" and would be running on the outside edge in my experience. But hey, you never know, it may pattern great. There really is no way to tell until you try different constrictions and find the sweet spot for your particular bore. That is one of the reasons I like the true custom choke makers that will exchange chokes with you until you hit that sweet spot. Bubble wrap chokes from the sporting goods store will collect in a drawer somewhere when trying different ones to find that perfect pattern.
Posted by: ironworker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/28/10 02:16 PM

I have a Hevi-shot coyote choke for my Benelli Nova. It measures .660 so is that over choked ? Or is it designed for Hevi Shot ammo only ?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/28/10 02:31 PM

It isn't overchoked if it throws good patterns...
Posted by: Tk10ga

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/31/10 09:50 PM

i have a .650 wilson precision choke for a maverick 88 puts 140 #5 copperplated pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards winchester hv turkey load 3" 1 3/4 oz
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/31/10 10:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Tk10ga
i have a .650 wilson precision choke for a maverick 88 puts 140 #5 copperplated pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards winchester hv turkey load 3" 1 3/4 oz


I'm not sure I get your point?
Posted by: Prdtrgttr

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/10/10 11:23 AM

I too have been bit by the shotgun bug. I am going to pack my Browning BPS 12g 3" shotgun this winter. Here in Canada lead shot can be difficult to obtain. I had hoped to shoot lead BB's or T shot, but I can't get any. I have 4buck in 3" shells. I did some testing with the choke tubes Browning provided. My best results were with the Full choke(1notch). However, it doesn't look like I will be able to shoot much past 50yds...I also have a Cabelas Super Full Turkey choke tube, but had a few fellas not recommend using it with anything bigger than T's in the lead.

Pic one 50 yd shot, I shot twice hopefully in the pics you can see the circles and X's to show the different shots:


Pic 2 40yd shot. I shot a little high but it looks very lethal.


I also shot it at 25yds and the results were very encouraging and very lethal for coyotes.
Whatcha think?
Are many of you getting patterns past 50yds? mellow
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/10/10 12:28 PM

Those targets look like 14" x 14" squares? If so, I think your patterns are too thin to be effective at 50 yards for sure. I would reshoot the 40 yard targets and check point of aim vs. point of impact and count those hits again.
Posted by: Prdtrgttr

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/10/10 01:18 PM

Hey GC, thanks for the feedback. Yes, they are one inch squares. What number of pellets into what area do you consider lethal?
Thanks!
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/16/10 05:25 PM

Shot my 20ga Nova today w/3" Fed.Premium Ultra Shok,1oz.#2 @1350fps(per Fed.)I only shot two rounds,one w/OEM full which is .583/.584 and one w/a Jelly Head .570. The shot were a bit low so had to determin the approx. center.Anyway the full put 27 and the JH put 25 in a 10" circle from 35yds.I want to get a .575 choke and try this load again.I may also try an imp. mod which I have.Anyone have any comments on these results?
Posted by: Wackmaster

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/05/10 03:40 PM

So I got in the spirt and tried my own test with my new shotgun. I was shooting a Benelli Vinci with a 24" brl and a Briley heavy full choke crio 2.I was wimpy and put a sand bag between my shoulder and gun and that might account for the patterns being a bit high on some of the targets.

Federal Heavyweight coyote 3" BB at 50yds.6 pellets in 9"circle,14 more in coyote.


Remington HD BB at 50yds. 10 in 9"circle,17 more in coyote

Federal #4 buck at 50 yds. 2 in 9" circle,6 more in coyote.

Remington T HD at 50 yds. 9 in 9" circle.10 more in coyote.

The 40yd patterns were very impressive but I did not have my camera that day.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/05/10 10:51 PM

Get those HD-BB's to shoot to point of aim and you have a real winner there. Actually a couple of those loads shot well enough for fifty yard kills if they strike point of aim. Thanks for the contribution!
Posted by: howling

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/06/10 02:27 PM

Thought this would go good with this thread on shot size.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html

http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/10/10 12:19 AM

Got out this past week and shot a few proven loads with one proven choke and two new ones,sorry guys no pics this time around as i forgot my camera at home assuming it was in the truck as always,the wife took it out to take pics of my dogs and failed to mention it.All shots tested at 40 yds.
This time around i tested a 3.5 inch browning maxus with three puregold chokes a .670,.680,.696 all with 3.5 inch shells.
The first load tested was 3.5 inch winchester superx unplated 4 buck,the .670 shot a nice dense pattern just high of point of aim.
The .680 with that load shot the best pattern a little more opened but very evenly spread right to my point of aim.
The .696 shot to my point of aim but again opened up more than the .680 but nice and even and very do-able.
I can see the .696 being very usefull on very tight and thick stands were shots will be inside 30 yards,i would deffinetly screw this choke in,in situations such as this.
The other two loads tested were 3.5 inch dead coyote and 3.5 inch remington hd bb.
On parr with my previous testing the .670 and dead coyote shined with the most dense patterns but the .680 and .696 still threw promising patterns again shooting to point of aim but opening up as the choke constriction opened.Again i will not be ruleing out the .696 for use in more close range applications.
The three chokes and the remington hd bb were again on parr with my previous testing with the .670 throwing the tightest patterns at 40 yds with the .680 opening slightly and again the .696 opening up a little more,all had effective killing patterns at 40 yrds,it really depends at this point on what your looking for super dense and tight or slightly more forgiving.
After testing the three choke constrictions i would have to say if i was going to buy just one the .680 seems to be the best compromise of pattern density and size,honestly very very close to the results of the .670 just slightly more spread,nothing wrong in my eyes.
Now if i was a two choke kind of guy[WHICH I AM} i would skip the .680 all together and runn the already proven .670 for those open longer shot stands and switch out to the .696 for the tighter,thicker close in your face stands,which is the way i will be playing this season.
The dead coyote and remington hd bb pattern far superior to 4 buck in my testing,so much so that once i runn out of 4 buck i will no longer be using it,i have a box and a half left of dead coyote and a case lot of remington hd bb which should serve me well for the next couple of seasons.As a money saving option i am thinking about running my first shot with the good stuff and the two follow up shots usually finishing shots with the 4 buck till i runn out of it,which if it works out well may be just my ticket to reduce the cost of using the better shells,so who knows the 4 buck might just stay in the stable.
On a last note i also tested the winchester 3 inch b coyote load,it patterned very well in all three choke sizes but due to it being a little smaller pellet than i am really comfortable with and it being the most expensive shell of all i tested it wont be a contender for me.You guys down south that hunt considerably smaller dogs than what i normally run into up here might find this load very effective.For me if i had to pick just one shell it would be remington hd bb hands down,it consistently patterns very well and has proven its self to be very effective on over a dozen coyotes at this point.
Good luck this season to all.

Cliff
Posted by: Tx Shooter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/11/10 09:48 PM

Ontario Caller,

I'm a bit mystified by the results of your pattern testing. My tests in my browning maxus indicates that a .660 Rhino choke was too constricted for all larger pellet sizes from 000Buck to Dead Coyote (T-shot). I had Rhino (who swore that my choke tube would give excellent patterns out to 70-80 yards) reluctantly open up the choke....after they made me pay for shipping the choke tube to them and for them to return the choke tube to me. The new constriction is .695...on par with what Kicks Industries offers for #4 Buck and 00Buck line of choke tubes chokes.

I'll try to find time to go out and test the new choke tube with different loads, but IIRC, i've already run a couple of loads of 00 buckshot through it and it did not perform well.

I wonder if two chokes tubes of the same constriction but made by different manufacturers would yield different results from the same gun?

Tx Shooter
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/15/10 07:39 PM

Tx Shooter,the .670 choke has done really well for me .660 is alot tighter especially in the browning bore.
I tried an indian creek .665 choke that works awsome from the maxus with turkey loads but very poorly with the coyote stuff.
You had poor results with the OO BUCK which i would think the .660 would be much to tight for,i have ony shot #4 buck through my chokes which is much smaller .24 caliber buck which is probubly the result of the better patterns,more open chokes with smaller and higher pellet counts.
The .696 from rino should probubly do the trick,my puregold .696 threw very nice patterns with every round i tried,a nice even spread with killing patterns out to 40 yards.
The more i ponder it i think that it may just become my go too choke constriction,it should provide a nice somewhat forgiving set up that should work well in reasonable shotgun ranges.
I hear ya that the rino .695 did not perform well for you with the OO buck but you should give it a try with smaller shot,it just might do very well.
As far as one constriction performing well from one choke manufacturer and not another,that is entirely possible as not all choke makers manufacture or design exactly the same.
This type of thing happens all the time,take for instance indian creek black diamond strike turkey chokes and turkey loads.
In my turkey testing i have a 1/2 dozen chokes in .665 but the indian creek .665 stands head and shoulders above the crowd shooting the same turkey loads as tested through the other chokes.This is just one example of the finikyness of shotguns and chokes,there seems to be very little common ground when it comes to what your gun likes,only starting points to make the search easier.
If you are going to try another choke manufacturer i would suggest puregold chokes,i have no connection or affiliation with puregold chokes i have just had very good results with all of there choke tubes from turkey,waterfowl and predators.
If your heart is set on shooting OO buck i would suggest .696 but if you are only buying one choke and shooting #4 buck and smaller and want to stretch the most in terms of distance out of the choke i would suggest a .680 or .670.
They make a super good quality choke at a reasonable price.
The .680 is not listed on there site so a phone call to them is requried to have a custom choke constriction cut which they will do for you with no issues.
Best of luck with the rhino or any other route you take.
My personal choke and load search is over for now as i a more than satisfied with the results i have achieved.
I wont be enjoying this maddness again untill i buy another new shotgun again which will be in the very distant future at this point.

Take care and good luck out there.

Cliff
Posted by: Tx Shooter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/10 09:34 PM

Thanks Ontario Caller.

I actually have a correction to make.

The Initial constriction (opening) on the first Rhino choke was .670, not .660. In any event, it seems that you are having success with constrictions that proved overchoked in my gun.

With the recent rash of great weather we've been having here in Houston, Tx, i'll try to make time to go and revisit some different #4 Buckshot loads....i've just been too busy playing with my AR...makes me less inclined to shoot my other guns.
Posted by: TexasAg93

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/10 04:28 PM

I did a considerable amount of testing with my Win SX2 awhile back. I should have taken pictures.

I use an 8" circle as a "kill zone"

24" SX2 with Dead Coyote .660 choke:

3" Remington #4 buckshot at 30yds- 21 pellet avg. in 8", all pellets fell 20" circle. 5rds fired

3" Remington #4 buckshot at 40yds- 15 pellet avg. in 8", 25 pellet avg in 20" circle. 5rds fired.

3" Remington #4 buckshot at 50yds- 8 pellet avg. in 8", 15 pellet avg in 20" circle. 5rds fired.

My shotgun would not shoot point of aim so I had to install Truglo adjustable sights. This put me dead on target.

I found 3" Heavy Shot B on sale. I will try that next.

I will also be testing a new Benelli M4 in the near future. I have.655 and .665 chokes to test in it.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/12/10 03:05 PM

This pattern was shot with my Beretta Extrema2 with Kicks."Gobbling Thunder" .680 tube. I can't remember for sure if the load was with Hevy shot T's or #4 BUCK, but the shells were 3&1/2" big boomers anyways.
Posted by: Crabo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/20/10 01:14 AM

There is a ton of information here! I want to start pattering my Benelli M1 Super 90. It has a 3" chamber. If you were to pick 4 or so different factory loads for predators, what would you buy?

I already have a box of dead coyote to pattern.

Thanks,

Crabo
Posted by: richards

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/21/10 07:39 AM

I killed a 90lb doe at 40 yds with my super 90 with hevishot #4 dead coyote on friday. I found 5 pellets under the skin of the far side shoulder. Some where round some where flat. Deer dropped at the shot! I was using a 21" barrel with a briley lm choke. This gun doesn't shoot to point of aim for me, but it was all I had. Although it patterns pretty good, my other benelli has a fastfire on it.
Posted by: bhurlebaus

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/30/10 07:49 PM

I have a Mossberg 835 tactical turkey with the factory x-factor ported turkey choke .695. When I contacted Mossberg about shooting buckshot or Dead Coyote through it they said to contact the shot manufacture. I want to get out and pattern my gun but am not sure if it is safe with this choke shot combo. Duck season closes this weekend and I need something to do. I'm not against buying a new choke or two but if this is safe I would like to give it a try. Anyone have any experience with this choke? Thanks
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/30/10 10:04 PM

bh,
They are afraid you'll shoot steel shot through a too tight constriction. And that would be a no-no that could cause damage or injury. Lead or soft non-toxic shot no larger than Number Four Buck should be fine if the constriction isn't over about .050" - .060" for your particular bore size.
Posted by: bhurlebaus

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/01/10 06:22 PM

Well it is a factory over bored 12 gauge. I know about the steel with full chokes I just wasn't sure on the shot size vs constriction.
Posted by: HT308

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/05/10 09:05 PM

I just shot my 535 Mossy with the .670 ported choke that it came with, overall performance was better than expected. At 40 yrds with #4 Buckshot it was a very tight pattern and would be very deadly to any coyote that came within the 40 yard mark.
Posted by: teamlund

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/07/10 08:52 PM

well, I patterned my bennelli many years ago with dead coyote and a carlson choke for DC... I dont even remember what my results were out of my Bennelli M1.....

So hope fully this week I can get out and patter that and a Rem 87 expess mag that I recently aquired..I bought a carlson for that also. We will see how they do.

the bennelli has a 26" barrels while the rem has a 28". I will have pics of the results hopefully.
Posted by: teamlund

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/10 01:42 PM

WELL, I went to the range today with my 870 and my benelli M1......I was shooting all dead coyote loads, 3".. I tried all of my factory chokes as well as the carlson choke for the dead coyote shot.

The carlsons chokes were by far the bast patterning. The stk tubes were horrible and not even worth posting pics of even at 25 yds..... I shot the guns at 25 and 50 yds... Both the Rem and the Benelli were great at 25 yds but I thought were lacking at 50 yds. I may have to work with carlsons to see if they will send me a did size constriction for my guns. Your thoughts on these patterns?

Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/10 04:29 PM

I see that is a 10" circle, and you have about 10 - 11 pellet strikes for the Dead Coyote T's at 50 yards.

For comparison I have the results of my 3" 12 gauge Benelli M1S90's with both an 8" and a 12" circle with the Remington HD-BB load. With a Kick's .670" I am consistently keeping 12 pellets inside 8" at 50 yards and 18 - 20 inside 12" at 50 yards. Of course there are more pellets in the HD-BB load than with the DC-T's load so that should be taken into consideration. You might improve the pattern some, but despite some claims laid out on the forums and in some advertisments, a true fifty yards is a long way out there for a shotgun with shot loads.
Posted by: teamlund

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/10 04:45 PM

so this is a decent pattern than or at least one I should be happy with? I was looking back and seen some of your patterns and mine are not far off. thanks for the input!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/10 04:50 PM

I would say you have a solid 40 -45 yard gun that should give reliable kills. If you would misjudge the range and shoot at 50 yards, you should be alright, especially if you are ready to back up with follow up shots immediately.
Posted by: teamlund

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/11/10 08:27 PM

I would like to see some of these patterns that some guys are claiming to have. I cant image a gun/choke combo holding a load to gether at 70 yds plus. I read somewhere a guy was taking 100 yd shots! I have a feelign that they are "hoping" for a hit or their are totally BSing their ranges.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/12/10 12:38 PM

It's sorta like the black panther stories that so many people seem to constantly have; nobody ever seems to be able to document any of the claims or stories. One retailer here pushes a certain "long range" choke tube that claims such performances, yet even after I challenged him to produce some credible proof of repeatable and consistent patterns at such ranges he and the company have failed to do so. Wonder why...? wink Anyway, if I could get an honest reliable and consistent 75 yard shotgun set-up I wouldn't need a rifle in the timber that I hunt. I would love that... if it were only so! Still waiting... smile
Posted by: teamlund

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/12/10 01:37 PM

maybe some poeples idead of a good pattern and kill shots are alittle diff.... I wouldnt consider 1 BB in the kill zone at 75 yds good, I would call it lucky.
Posted by: Cal Kellogg

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/12/10 05:16 PM

Reliable or lucky that's the thing...Back when I was a kid looking for my first turkey during a fall hunt I killed a hen at over 60 long paces with a 12 gauge shooting 23/4 No. 4 high brass pheasant loads...One shot and that bird was flopping on the ground and deader than dead in about 15 seconds...

It was total luck and the turkey was having a really bad day!....It certainly doesn't mean that a turkey gun loaded with No. 4 pheasant loads is a 60 rig...Now I would really think hard before shooting beyond 45 yards at a turkey with magnum buffered turkey loads utilizing copper plated shot......
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/13/10 01:35 AM

Cal,
That took me back some years, the very first turkey I killed was just about like yours. I was sixteen years old and it was the fall season. I ran into a flock to bust them up so I could try to call them back with some Kee-Kee's like you read about in Outdoor Life magazine and one of the young of the year flew straight up into a tree about 50 yards away. I studied that for a second, hesitating thinking that wasn't supposed to happen, I wouldn't be calling the bird back to reassemble like the magazine articles said to do. Then I remembered an old saying about a bird in the hand so I shrugged and took a bead and squeezed a 2 3/4" high brass 1 1/4 ounce load of #4's off. That young hen fell dead as a sack of hammers! I was using my Remington 12 gauge Wingmaster with a 28" fixed modified barrel. After proudly telling dad about it, he got me fixed up high tech with some real short magnum turkey loads and told me not to shoot past 40 yards from now on. I don't rely on luck anymore, but I won't turn from it when offered either! smile
Posted by: preddhunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/16/10 09:54 PM

just wondering is it fine to shot federal black cloud steel bbs through my 12ga full choke or is that not good to do.

thanks
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/16/10 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By: preddhunter
just wondering is it fine to shot federal black cloud steel bbs through my 12ga full choke or is that not good to do.

thanks


I wouldn't...
Posted by: preddhunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/16/10 10:13 PM

k thanks just wondering and i just picked up a stoger m2000 and will have to do some testing.
Posted by: swampwalker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/17/10 07:20 AM

it seems that most predator chokes fall between the .660 and .680 range. I just ordered the mad dog pounder with a .710 constriction..This is another 70yd coyote choke tube.. haha.

does anybody have input on this choke? or chokes in the .710 range?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/17/10 01:09 PM

I think the Mad Dog choke is actually made by Indian Creek. I'm pretty sure that is true and if so the choke will be very well made of high quality materials. I'm not crazy about their constriction choices, I think they are too conservative and play it safe by using such a large diameter. It seems they consider predator ammo choice to be 00 Buck and aren't quite up to speed on the smaller shot choices used by many predator hunters. It may shoot great... it may need to be a tweak tighter, you know how that goes.
Posted by: swampwalker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/17/10 02:42 PM

Thanks, IC also has a .710 predator choke the black diamond assault, They recommend BB-00 Buck shot..I know they make a great turkey choke hopefully it works out
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/19/10 06:15 PM

Let us know how it works out for ya swampwalker.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/21/10 03:27 PM

To find the nominal bore diameter of your shotgun, click on this link---
http://www.comp-n-choke.com/Chokes.html
Posted by: swampwalker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/22/10 02:27 PM

I tried out the dog pounder yesterday. I used an 870 super mag and an 1187. I used rem HD BB, rem #4bk and dead coyote 3 and 3.5 inch. After testing the Dog pounder I tested the dead coyote choke .. The DC choke beat out the dog pounder on all test patterns except for one ,the 1187 with #4 bk. All test were made at 50yds

After shooting all the possible combinations the dead coyote choke. With the 870 and 3.5 inch dead coyote T shot was by far the best
Combo..I got 13 hits in a 7 inch circle at 50yds

Overall I was disappointed with the dog pounder..
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/22/10 03:50 PM

I personally think they need to tighten their constrictions. As I said, Indian Creek seems to be hung up on the idea predator hunters use 00 Buck. Those of us that do this stuff don't really use that large shot and Indian Creek should tighten those predator constrictions up for the smaller No. Four Buck, T-shot, and BB's predator hunters most often use. I have an Indian Creek BDS .665" that does pretty well, though I think it is a smidge too tight for my bore. One of these days I may get a BDS in about .670 - .680" and give it a good wringing out. My bet is it would do really well.
Posted by: Commodorefirst

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/22/10 06:13 PM

As you state Gary, patterning is everything, I have had fun trying out the chokes in my recent 1100M conversion to a 18.5" turkey/yote gun this past fall. spent a lot of dollars throwing lead, and tungsten downrange here in southern MO. On the Remmington I had the barrel cut down and converted to a truchoke system so I could still shoot 3" shells lead/steel etc. etc. I like a short barrel for turkey and varmint seasons. The gun then also doubles as a home defense gun too.

For fall turkey (I didn't get one, they were scarce this year) I found the Carlson Dead coyote did the best at 40 yds with my normal Remmington lead buffered #4 shot 2 oz loads.

The Carlson Truchoke Dead Coyote also ended up being the best pattern at all ranges to 40 yds with my standard home defense load and coyote load away from the pond (I don't shoot the lead stuff around the pond) I use the Remmington standard #4 buck with 41 buffered pellets in the 3" loads with the DC choke and it does a really nice job. As others have found here on the forums.

Now on my loads I really would like to shoot for turkey and yotes I still am searching for the best choke. What I have at the house is a fair quantity of Remmington 3" BB HD wingmaster Tungsten loads that I would love to shoot all over my property including over the pond areas, and I would also like to shoot my Tungsten #6 HD Remmington HD tungsten loads.

My modified full Truchokes and normal Full choke truchokes just don't seem to like the Remmington tungsten loads, lots of gaps, holes, not shooting to point of aim, a myriad of problems. Only my modified shoots the tungsten stuff ok, but the pattern just isn't dense enough for turkey or yotes at 40 yds.

I am going to pick up a Kicks extra full choke (maybe their full choke too) that can handle steel and tungsten and give the 3" tungsten BB and #6 loads a whirl and see how they do at the longer 40 yard ranges.

I really want to shoot the BB tungsten everywhere on my property and not have to worry about lead in the water around my ponds because of my domesticated ducks etc.

I should have taken a few pics from my patterning sessions, but never seemed to have the camera when I was patterning this fall and winter.

Will keep everyone posted on my Kicks highflyer with the tungsten loads.

Cheers,

Wade

Posted by: Fox Fire

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/24/10 06:11 PM

Question...How many pellets would ya'll consider the min. and max to down a coyote at say 50 yards. (and with what shot)

I'm diggin thru these post try'n to decide which choke would work for my 870SPS, the dead coyote choke package claims its good to 70 yards if I remember, to me thats a long way to shoot a shotgun, I'd just about have to see it to belive it, to me 50 yards would be a lengthy shot but sinec I dont have any hands on with thses chokes I really cant say.
Posted by: Commodorefirst

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/24/10 10:53 PM

On my 1100. 70 yds is a pipe dream or lucky,

I pattern at 40 and sometimes 50 but at 50 it is getting very iffy even with good chokes and ammo.

With your dead coyote choke on the 870, I would try the Remmington #4 buck, has 41 pellets and the Dead coyote choke seems to pattern this round pretty darn nice in most guns and similar chokes.

In regards to shot sizes, heck even at close range normal lager bird shot can work, but most here recommend #4 buck, T shot, BB and sometimes number 2 if you shoot tungsten or heavy shot. Most of us fall into the #4 buck, or heavy shot in T shot or BB. 3" or even 2 3/4 " shells are fine, but I tend to stick to the 3" for the 41 pellets in #4 buck.

Most important thing is to spend the dough and pattern and pattern and pattern. Every gun is different and every load is different.

Cheers and happy patterning.
Posted by: Fox Fire

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/25/10 11:13 AM

Thanx man, I appreciate the info, exactly what I was look'n for.
Posted by: Roadrunner

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/02/11 03:09 PM

Was out today and ran a 2nd test on four tubes MD IC .710 MD IC .665 Carlsons DC .665 and Win inv plus turkey. Came up with different results. Before the DC tube had the most hits now it's the factory Win turkey tube(.700) All out of a SX3 using 3.5" DC. RR






Posted by: Coyotejunki

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/02/11 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Roadrunner
Was out today and ran a 2nd test on four tubes MD IC .710 MD IC .665 Carlsons DC .665 and Win inv plus turkey. Came up with different results. Before the DC tube had the most hits now it's the factory Win turkey tube(.700) All out of a SX3 using 3.5" DC. RR


I have a Carlsons DC choke for my 12 ga Win X2 Inv. +. It is also .665". That seems pretty tight for the large bore of these Wins and Brownings.
Posted by: 6mm06

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 06:28 PM


What is the constriction of the Carlson's Dead Coyote choke?
Posted by: Roadrunner

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 07:18 PM

.665 For a Win inv. plus. RR
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 07:29 PM

Interesting stuff with that .700 road runner,i have been getting some really good patterns with dead coyote Ts,remington HD BB and winchester 4 buck all 3.5 inch from a pure gold .696,i was sold on the pure gold .670 but have recently switched over to the .696 as it gives me a more consistent very evenly spaced pattern with no big holes in the pattern.
I am shooting a browning maxus with has the same bore dimensions as your winchester.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 07:52 PM

Coyotejunki,

I had one of those Carlson "Dead Coyote" tubes, but I threw it in the junk. I know that some folks like em, but it was worst tube that I ever tried.
Posted by: 6mm06

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 07:54 PM


I have one for a Remington, but don't know the constriction. Is it .665 regardless?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: 6mm06

I have one for a Remington, but don't know the constriction. Is it .665 regardless?



It seems to be, that is what everyone reports their choke tube is regardless of the gun being used. That isn't a very satisfactory approach considering the bore diameters run from .723" - .775" in the various 12 gauge guns.
Posted by: Roadrunner

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: ontario_caller
Interesting stuff with that .700 road runner,i have been getting some really good patterns with dead coyote Ts,remington HD BB and winchester 4 buck all 3.5 inch from a pure gold .696,i was sold on the pure gold .670 but have recently switched over to the .696 as it gives me a more consistent very evenly spaced pattern with no big holes in the pattern.
I am shooting a browning maxus with has the same bore dimensions as your winchester.


I tested that .700 again after work and put 16 holes in one sheet and 14 in an other so it's not the fluke I thought it was. Funny how jumping .010" (.710)with the indian creek tube drops the pattern almost in half. It's expensive but I won't be second guessing the load when I miss. blush RR
Posted by: 6mm06

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 09:19 PM


GC,

You have way more experience with shotguns than I do, so my question is, given the bore of my 11-87, is the Dead Coyote choke a .665?

The reason I'm asking is due to our conversation a few nights ago about tightening up my groups with the HD BB loads. I had planned to purchase a .665 tube at your recommendation, but I may already have one in the Carlson's Dead Coyote tube.

I had planned to get a Trulock tube. Do you have recommendations for a tube to try (non-ported - can't stand the noise)?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 10:08 PM

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure... but I do think the Dead Coyote choke for the Remington is a .665". You might contact Carlson and see what they tell you. They seem to be very responsive to customers questions. Shooting it is the only way to know how it will pattern. You think ported chokes tubes are markedly louder? I don't know that I can tell the difference... maybe I've shot too many of them over the years. One thing many ported chokes do is the ports strip the wad from the shot column. And in nearly all cases that is a good thing. Federal Flite Control loads being the one case where wad stripping is usually not advised. There aren't a whole bunch of non-ported chokes on the market. Indian Creek will turn you one, that I know for sure and they are best quality products.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 10:32 PM

GC,

Since all of my choke tubes are ported, I am now wondering if ALL Federal "Premium" shotgun fodder uses flite control wads. I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that the flite control wads may damage ported chokes or even maybe the barrel.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 10:46 PM

Not all of it Rich. If it is Flite Control it will state it somewhere in the product description and on the box. Flite Control wads act to keep the entire wad and shot column as one single unit - basically a slug. If that slams into too tight a constriction, or the wad catchers grab that "slug" it may act as a barrel obstruction and cause damage. A few companies are now offering non-wad catching chokes to better mate with the Flite Control wad. And often Flite Control works best from a standard flush mount choke as supplied by most factories with the gun. It is a non-issue with me because there are loads just as good or better that do not use that type wad so I don't mess with it.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 11:04 PM

Flite Control Wad:



I recovered this one about 40 yds out.
Posted by: Coyotejunki

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
Coyotejunki,

I had one of those Carlson "Dead Coyote" tubes, but I threw it in the junk. I know that some folks like em, but it was worst tube that I ever tried.


Well I wasn't going to do that, I will pattern it with some #5 shot for turkeys.

I'm using an extended Hastings .685" choke and getting pretty good groups out to 40 yards with Rem 3" #4 buck and the Fed plated BB's.
Posted by: 6mm06

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/11 11:22 PM


Maybe I need to try a ported choke. Any suggestions?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/04/11 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By: 6mm06

Maybe I need to try a ported choke. Any suggestions?


Kick's, Indian Creek, and Pure Gold are all excellent products and good folks to work with.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/04/11 02:25 PM

6mm06,
I believe the bore diameter of your Remington is .730. Bore diameter of my Beretta is .731 and a Kicks "Gobbling Thunder" .680 works like a dream for me with lead #4 Buck and Dead Coyote T's. Shotguns are finicky critters, but I think a .680 tube from Kicks would work out fairly well for you.
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/04/11 07:17 PM

Browning Invector barrel.Anyone know the bore dia. of these? I'm looking at a older BPS deer/turkey game gun w/3" chamber.These have factory adj. sights and drilled for a scope base.I think this would be a korker of a pred./turk. gun with the right chokes.
Posted by: 6mm06

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/04/11 08:21 PM

Rich, how about with the HD BB loads? You think that's the constriction ( .680 ) I need?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/11 12:14 AM

Redcloud,
I think the standard Invector had the standard bore size of American 12 gauges - .730". The Invector Plus is over bored to .742" if I'm not mistaken.

6-06,
That would be a good all around choke, you might go a bit tighter, say a .670" for the BB load. Your bore is .730", my Benelli bores are .723" and the .670" shoots best of all. I don't think you would be too tight - but understand that is a semi-educated guess. Barrels are funny, it's like recommending a load for a rifle to another guy with the same brand rifle chambered for the same cartridge as yours. The load you like and shoots best for you may or may not do well in his particular gun.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/11 12:10 PM

6mm06,
If BB is the largest shot you plan to use, the .670 would likely be the ticket. If your gun came with an X-full "turkey" tube, you may want to try that one first.
Posted by: Houser in NC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/11 10:23 AM

I've been looking at the new Natchez flyer online and saw that Federal makes a shell using copper plated lead BBs. If they pattern well and perform well on coyotes they might be a good alternative to other more expensive non lead shot.

Has anybody tried them or would like to share opinions on them?
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/11 10:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Houser in NC
I've been looking at the new Natchez flyer online and saw that Federal makes a shell using copper plated lead BBs. If they pattern well and perform well on coyotes they might be a good alternative to other more expensive non lead shot.

Has anybody tried them or would like to share opinions on them?

-------------------------------------
Houser,

I recently sold a BPS just like yours. It whacked a lot of coyotes for me, and I used those Federal BB's you mention. I had a Hastings .655 "card shooter" tube screwed on up front, and it gave me a 45 yard sure kill range on coyotes.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/11 10:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcloud
Browning Invector barrel.Anyone know the bore dia. of these? I'm looking at a older BPS deer/turkey game gun w/3" chamber.These have factory adj. sights and drilled for a scope base.I think this would be a korker of a pred./turk. gun with the right chokes.


Redcloud,

The nominal bore diameter of the standard Invector bores is .730.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/11 10:58 AM

Houser, the plated lead BB's do work fine, though they won't give you the range or quite the terminal effect of the tungsten pellets. About 40-ish yards like Rich mentioned is a good safe bet. We sometimes misjudge range and that gives you a little cushion on the upper end, especially when shooting through brush which takes some of the shot out of the pattern.
Posted by: J.J.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/11 11:09 AM

Ok, so educate me a bit here.

I had been thinking hard about updating my shotgun to shoot 3 & 3 1/2" shells to extend my range.
My rem 1100 with the 2 3/4 " chamber & modified barrel has put a good pattern on paper at 50 yrd with #4 buck.
During one hunt, after getting busted by 3 coyotes while walking to a set & a 4th standing bewildered at the far end of possible range, it dropped him at 62 yrds. At this point I had nothing to loose. I did have to give him a follow up shot, but it did the job.

So my question is, I hear yall speaking of a 45 yrd kill range & am wondering if I need to make a change. I know the load options increase with a 3" quite a bit. But other than that is it worth the extra cash?

Thanks,
"JJ"
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/11 11:25 AM

[quote="JJ"]Ok, so educate me a bit here.

I had been thinking hard about updating my shotgun to shoot 3 & 3 1/2" shells to extend my range.
My rem 1100 with the 2 3/4 " chamber & modified barrel has put a good pattern on paper at 50 yrd with #4 buck.
During one hunt, after getting busted by 3 coyotes while walking to a set & a 4th standing bewildered at the far end of possible range, it dropped him at 62 yrds. At this point I had nothing to loose. I did have to give him a follow up shot, but it did the job.

So my question is, I hear yall speaking of a 45 yrd kill range & am wondering if I need to make a change. I know the load options increase with a 3" quite a bit. But other than that is it worth the extra cash?
---------------------------------------------
JJ,

When it comes down to the nitty gritty, the answer to your question is "probably not". I think it comes down to the fact that good 2&3/4" 12 gauge fodder is kind of hard to find. It is pretty easy to find good 3" fodder though. Ya know I only gained maybe ten yards of "sure kill" range by spending 1400.00 for a Beretta Extrema2, about 200.00 more in various choke tubes, and who know how much in testing various 3&1/2" fodder. Was it worth it to me? Yes.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/11 01:06 PM

JJ,
Think of it as rifle hunting deer. You have a .30-30 and a 4X scope that has worked well for you for years. Your average shot at deer is around 80 yards, a couple times over the years you've shot one near 150 yards but that is pretty rare. Twice in those many years you have had a chance at over 200 yards but just didn't feel comfortable trying a long poke with your .30-30.

You keep hearing and reading of higher velocity cartridges that stretch the range beyond what your .30-30 is really ethically capable of. I mean, sure the .30-30 can kill deer at 300 yards... but that is a real stretch and a sometimes "iffy" thing. Do you want to invest in a new rifle chambered for a more powerful flatter shooting cartridge, higher power variable scope, and go through the process to search out accurate loads for new rig? All the while continuing to hunt the same terrain the .30-30 has been working in for so many years? Only you can answer if it is worth it or not to you.
Posted by: dpittman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/07/11 01:51 PM

Has anyone tried the Hevi-shot goose loads? I have the "B" size at 1400 fps. I also have a pure gold 670 to try. Is B big enough and are there enough extra pellets to make them better than the dead coyote?
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/07/11 07:04 PM

dpittman,derbysacrebob has shot a decent # of coyotes with the
heavy shot b goose load i believe.I am preaty sure he likes it.
Maybe Bob will chime in here and let us know what he thinks.
I dont know what gun your screwing that puregold .670 into but you should like it that choke has worked great for me in 2 different browning shotguns invector + with a variety of different loads,also great in .670 as well in rem choke in three different remingtons.
Posted by: wisturkeyhunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/07/11 11:03 PM

Winchester markets a coyote load with b's.
Posted by: Houser in NC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/08/11 10:36 AM

Originally Posted By: GC
Houser, the plated lead BB's do work fine, though they won't give you the range or quite the terminal effect of the tungsten pellets. About 40-ish yards like Rich mentioned is a good safe bet. We sometimes misjudge range and that gives you a little cushion on the upper end, especially when shooting through brush which takes some of the shot out of the pattern.


Thanks to you and Rich for your opinions on the Federal BBs. I already have HD BBs and some Hevi T shells but always looking for other options.
Posted by: Roadrunner

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/08/11 10:48 AM

Hey has anyone patterned the Hornady 4 buck. Very interesting shotcup/wad design. Might have to pick some up and get the board back out. RR


Hornady Ammo
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/08/11 03:04 PM

It only has 24 pellets as compared to a more usual 3" 12 gauge No. Four Buck load with 41 pellets. Plus it uses that danged Flite Control type wad... which is often a pain in the rear to get good patterns from. I dunno, might be worth checking out but it seems to be handicapped right from the start.
Posted by: AR-Okie

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/14/11 01:15 AM

I wish we could use #4 buck or even the T shot Dead coyote loads here in Ok. but BB is as large as we are allowed to be afield with. The Federal Premium BB 17/8 load is what i use through a .675 HS strut choke. I'm down to around 10 rnds out of a 25rnd box. I hope I can find them in the 10rnd boxes.
Posted by: CRshooter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/16/11 03:04 PM

Question! What is the generally accepted size of the heart-lung area of a coyote? I have the drawing of a coyote and have made several cardboard cutouts of it(http://coyotecanada.ca/coyote_template.pdf). Is the heart-lungs depicted on the drawing a fair representation. I just got a new 870 SPS Turkey/Predator shot gun and plan to pattern it in the morning using the cutouts.
Posted by: Bernie P.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/16/11 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
GC,

Since all of my choke tubes are ported, I am now wondering if ALL Federal "Premium" shotgun fodder uses flite control wads. I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that the flite control wads may damage ported chokes or even maybe the barrel.


Rich this Federal load does not have the FC wad-
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=889726
Posted by: duckhunter_67502

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/11 11:02 AM

Thanks for all your work and the great photos! I have quickly figured out the 60+ yd claims are just that "claims". Everyone gets lucky once in awhile but consistent clean kills are tough past 40 yds.
Posted by: dpittman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/06/11 05:13 PM

Question about pure gold. Does anyone else notice that the pure gold 670/Rem 870SM combo shoots just about everything good from #7 Hevi-13 to DC T. Is it the pure gold choke design or is 670 the best constriction for most predator and turkey applications?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/06/11 06:45 PM

Pure Gold is an excellent choke, but they aren't magical. None of them are (despite some claims laid out by a few of these companies), though some choke designs are better than others. A good quality wad stripping choke with between .050" - .060" constriction from the particular bore size is a very versatile choke.
Posted by: SCoyote

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/06/11 09:47 PM

GC, I was actually thinking about this today while hunting and specifically about this thread. I was wondering how any of the choke brands could be that much better than the others design wise. I think there is probably only so much variation that can be put into a three inch tube.
Posted by: YoteAddiction

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/07/11 01:16 AM

Quote:
Flite Control wads act to keep the entire wad and shot column as one single unit - basically a slug. If that slams into too tight a constriction, or the wad catchers grab that "slug" it may act as a barrel obstruction and cause damage.

thats perfect GC, I was just talking to my brother about this today, and was trying to puzzle out how bad it might end up trying to strip a wad designed to hold all the shot in a tight pack...
Posted by: YoteAddiction

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/07/11 01:32 AM

I was also out wasting a box of #4 remington express today testing out the stock mod choke in a used mossy 500 I just got, and the results made me think of something that might be worth mentioning (might have been already, haven't read this entire beast of a topic). At 20 yards the pattern was fairly tight but shaped in a narrow horizontal curve (ive noticed this in other guns/chokes, and took some extra shots to make sure it was a consistent pattern). It didnt look promising because even though it was tight, it was narrow, so aim a little high or low and the shot band might miss your target. However at 25 yards, the pattern loosened up quite a bit, but, it also spread down into a nice round pattern, putting significantly more pellets in the head AND entire neck of the turkey target I was using. Simply put, its quite possible to pattern a choke and load combo at longer distances and assume it patterns good, when in fact 10 yards closer, and the pattern you were expecting doesnt exist anymore, so really, be as thorough with your patterning as you can
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/07/11 09:57 AM

I pattern at 13, 25, 40, and 50 yards. I will shoot longer distances "if" the 50 yard pattern is promising enough. My son just bought a new Vinci and the first thing we did to determine point of aim/point of impact was screw the factory Full choke in and shoot three shots from 13 yards. You should be dead on left/right and either dead on (flat pattern) or no more than 2" inches high at 13 yards (60/40 pattern). His Vinci was dead on left/right and about 1 1/2" high and shot one single ragged hole with the three shots - perfect. The Winchester SX3 he had awhile back was 4" left and 9" high at 13 yards. That made 40 yard patterns about 18" left and 30" high. That's a problem...
Posted by: YoteAddiction

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/07/11 12:06 PM

Quote:
That made 40 yard patterns about 18" left and 30" high

weeeeellll..... as long as everything your shooting is going up and left.... haha, yeah, thats no good
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/07/11 09:12 PM

Yeah, the SX3 went down the road.
Posted by: ontario_caller

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/08/11 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: dpittman
Question about pure gold. Does anyone else notice that the pure gold 670/Rem 870SM combo shoots just about everything good from #7 Hevi-13 to DC T. Is it the pure gold choke design or is 670 the best constriction for most predator and turkey applications?


I have noticed this the .670 shoots every thing good for me in three different remington shotguns.
It also shoots everything good for me in two browning invector plus barrels which is very interesting considering the bigger bore of the browning.
I have also shot .680,.696 and .720 puregold chokes in the brownings with equally good results,patterns opening up as expected as the choke constriction opened up.
I just picked up a 24 inch barreled winchester sx2 that has the browning bore and choke so i will be putting those 4 chokes through there paces once again with #4 buck,rem hd bb and dead coyote.
I will again post my results whenever i get around to it in the future.
Posted by: Crabo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/13/11 09:17 PM

Where are you guys finding the larger shot at? I can find Hevi Dead Coyote and 00 buck and that is about it. Do I need to mail order it?
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/14/11 12:24 PM

Crabo,

I order my shotgun fodder from Natchez shooter supply. I just ordered a .660 Kicks Gobbling Thunder choke tube this morning also. I need that tube for shooting the smaller shot.
Posted by: EDP

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/15/11 09:22 PM

Was wondering if anyone has tried the winchester #4 extended range for coyotes?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/15/11 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: EDP
Was wondering if anyone has tried the winchester #4 extended range for coyotes?


Turkey load? Can't see any reason to when there are so many actually good loads readily available.
Posted by: Sparrowhawk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/17/11 12:36 AM

GC,

No pics of patterns, just a few generalized questions.

I've a 28-in. Xtrema2. I finally got around to actually patterning it a bit lately and it seems it shoots low left at 30 & 40 yards with everything.

Come to think of it, I've always done better on flying targets moving right to left, and a turkey I busted a couple years back trotting left to right had a lot of Hevi-Shot 6s in its crop and breast at 42 yards.

In Tennessee, we must shoot "T" and smaller for coyotes, etc., btw I dig the idea of 54 4 Buck for coyote, alas it is not legal in these parts.


Should I ask Beretta for a different bbl., or plop an Aimpoint Micro on it and zero it? I'm currently shooting with a Tru-Viz bead. Got other SGs I can use for bird hunting. Also do you have general data on Xtrema2s with 3-in v. 3.5-in.?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/17/11 08:33 AM

Point of aim/impact issues aren't too uncommon, thus my constant harping about patterning, patterning, patterning before hunting. You don't mention how much low left? Does your particular gun come with stock shims to help adjust point of impact? Depending upon severity of the situation Beretta might take care of it... however, Beretta isn't well known for their friendly customer service. Good thing most Beretta users seldom actually need customer service!

Stock shims might take care of the problem if it isn't too severe. If it is more than the shims could manage and the factory won't address the issue, that leaves you with adjustable iron sights or a glass sight of some sort as probably the best solution. There are elliptical chokes made to also help adjust for this sort of problem if it isn't too severe, but they are custom order jobs and very expensive. I don't see them as a great alternative for a general purpose gun like this as the cost would be prohibitive. With a standard Full choke how far off is the pattern at 13 yards and then again at 40 yards?
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/18/11 11:01 AM

My Beretta Extrema2 has an adjustable stock. Looking at the owners manual, adjusting cast on/cast off and etc. looks too dang complicated for me. A job for a gunsmith I think. I have always aimed my shotguns as though they were rifles anyway, and with the extremely tight patterns I want, then sighting becomes critical. I had a second bead installed several inches rear of center, and I use the rear bead as my rear sight. Once the correct bead size is found, the vertical impact point is fairly well taken care of. Lucky for me, I didn't have a right or left point of impact problem.
Posted by: dpittman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/19/11 02:52 PM

various pellet weights
REM HS "B" 8 gr/pellet
HS Goose "B" 8.5 gr/pellet
HS Dead Coyote "T" 12 gr/pellet
REM WM HD "BB" 9.3 gr/pellet
HS 12g/cc "BB" 11.1 gr/pellet
#4 buck plated 20 gr/pellet

BPI buckshot "B" 8.75 gr
"BB" 9.41
"BBB"9.99
"T" 13.98
"F" 15.57
Nickel-plate "F"14.9
Posted by: JCnAR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/09/11 12:48 AM

GC, this has been a very informative thread. Thanks for getting it started. I do have a question that goes back to the very first posts. I noticed most all of the test results were with different loads in the tactical shotgun with the .680 choke. The only results with the Turkey Gun were with the .660 choke and the #4 buck. I can't help but be curious as to why you didn't try both chokes in both guns and run all the loads through for comparison. I'm sorry if this was covered and I somehow missed it. I'm just curious. Thanks.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/09/11 07:57 PM

Originally I did shoot both guns with a .660" and a .680" choke. Later I also tried a .670" and found sweetness there. Fiddling around some since, I think that a really good general rule of thumb is a good starting place is somewhere from .050" - .060" of constriction from the particular bore size of your gun.
Posted by: JCnAR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/10/11 11:41 AM

Thanks GC! I figured you tested like that but was curious because you mainly posted results from the Tactical with the .680 choke. I had started a little chart to monitor your results which I thought might give me some ideas. I was most interested in how your Tactical compared to the Turkey gun with all those loads when using the same choke. Do you remember if the extra 5.5" of barrel made much difference in your patterns?
Posted by: TripleDeuce660

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/10/11 08:11 PM

I made it out today for some pattern testing.

Brand new Beretta 3901 12ga 28" Mobile Chokes. Added a Kickeeze rocker pad and glad I did! You guys with the 3 1/2" loads are nuts. The 3" is all I can take in a T-shirt.

Carlsons Dead Coyote Choke tube. Contacted Carlsons they said it is .665.

The load is 3" Wingmaster HD BB.

Fired from a sitting position leaning against my trucks tire. Just like I would do it in the field leaning on a tree.

Wind 5 mph perfectly left to right.

First I started at 40 yards with two shots Anything in this range is very dead.






Then I fired 6 of them at 50 yards. I got pics here of 4. The other 2 shots where about the same result.









Here is how they stack up. I measured squares from the orange dots which was my apporximate POA. 8x8, 18x18, the remainder of the target is about 48x48.


50 yards.


40 yards.


I believe I have a 50 yard gun. It might take a dog a little further but if I limit it to 50 I probably have a little room for error but not much. I think it would just be luck to kill one clean at 60 yards. 50 yards is good enough for this seasons hunting. Patterning is a pain in the butt.

Just a note on penetration. I had a plank of 2x10 across the bottom of the target board. Plus an old tire infront of that. It passed thru. I noticed they penetrated the tire, plank, and plywood target at 50 yards.

Its sort of hard to see but the pattern seems pretty well distributed. Pattern testing only tells the story of a still shot. If the dog is on the run its going to be different I'm sure. There is a cloud of death atleast 36" around at 50 yards from which no dog will escape aslong at its centered up on the dog and that is good enough for now. I am guessing that achieving 60 yards will be much harder.

The gun seems to shoot straight.

Left and right seems good.

The elevation is just about dead on at 40. I'm guessing at 35 yards it would of been centered perfectly. At 50 it seems to be dropping I had to aim a little higher. Every shot was a kill regardless of moving POA around on some shots.

How many BB's are in this load?



Posted by: JDolezal

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/10/11 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660
Fired from a sitting position leaning against my trucks tire.
You felt a lot more recoil that way, you took the normal give of your body out by putting yourself between the shotgun and truck tire. thumbup1 I did the same thing when testing my "Dead Coyote" choke and ammo.
Posted by: TripleDeuce660

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/10/11 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: JDolezal
Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660
Fired from a sitting position leaning against my trucks tire.
You felt a lot more recoil that way, you took the normal give of your body out by putting yourself between the shotgun and truck tire. thumbup1 I did the same thing when testing my "Dead Coyote" choke and ammo.


I figured that one out on the very first shot. I was leaning forward cuz I knew it would crush me against the tire. It tossed me back like a rag doll! I had to REALLy lean forward, only my lower back touching the tire.

I might see about getting some extra gas valve springs for heavy loads. I hear they can reduce recoil and prolong the life of the reciever by slowing the bolt down.

Recoil always gives me a headache. Now that I adjusted pitch and LOP on both my shotguns the recoil is much better and I'm really smoking the targets.Alot less recoil to the face too.
Posted by: JDolezal

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/10/11 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660
Originally Posted By: JDolezal
Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660
Fired from a sitting position leaning against my trucks tire.
You felt a lot more recoil that way, you took the normal give of your body out by putting yourself between the shotgun and truck tire. thumbup1 I did the same thing when testing my "Dead Coyote" choke and ammo.


I figured that one out on the very first shot. I was leaning forward cuz I knew it would crush me against the tire. It tossed me back like a rag doll! I had to REALLy lean forward, only my lower back touching the tire.

I might see about getting some extra gas valve springs for heavy loads. I hear they can reduce recoil and prolong the life of the reciever by slowing the bolt down.

Recoil always gives me a headache. Now that I adjusted pitch and LOP on both my shotguns the recoil is much better and I'm really smoking the targets.Alot less recoil to the face too.

Yep I figured it out my first shot too. Like you I was wearing a t-shirt. I was shooting a Weatherby PA-08 I couldn't adjust anything! I tried resting my shotgun on my knee, I found out that too was a bad idea with a pump gun. My knee was on the mag tube and when I pulled the trigger the forearm took a nice chunk of skin off of my knee through my jeans. Glad I wasn't wearing shorts I might of lost a knee cap. cursing I sold that darn gun too. It felt good in the store but I couldn't hit a thing with it and the recoil was extremely harsh for some reason. My mossberg 500 never kicked my butt like that thing.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/11/11 12:33 AM

JC,
The longer 24" barrel does pattern somewhat better. Now I also have a 26" barrel and have patterned it some too. It actually shoots just about dead even with the 24" barrel. Both will slightly outshoot the short 18 1/2" Tactical barrel. There probably isn't enough difference to worry about, though I might limit my shots at least five yards with the shortest barrel... if I thought of it in the heat of the moment.

TD660,
If I remember correctly there are 72 HD-BB's in that 1 1/2 ounce 3" load.
Posted by: Jasony

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/11/11 03:39 PM

Sweet info...I guess I was getting lucky this year. I paced off two clean kills this year between 70 and 75 yards....They were both three pellet kills..in the "good stuff". I also hit some that ran a hundred yards or so before dying. They were both one pellet kills. I live out on the northern edge of the owyhee desert so sagebrush is the only cover for the most part.

I don't have to try and follow wounded animals through the massive brush patches of Texas so I don't mind taking that long shot usually the second kill of the set. I would say that three pellets was sufficent for the #4 buck if they hit between the diafragm and the eyeball. Then again i killed 42 with my shotgun this season(november-febuary). And I was paying my bills with fur so....I wasn't messing around. I do think you are right about the chokes and loads and I thank you for your time. The info was most impressive and well though out.
Posted by: Sparrowhawk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/11/11 11:32 PM

GC, sorry about the delay. Xtrema2 seems to be consistently throwing the center pattern about 4-5 inches left and about 6 inches low. Haven't shot it yet at 13 yards. Thinking I need to get a mount for it and plop an Aimpoint Micro or Leupold 1.5-5X on it and see it I can adjust POI to POA.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/12/11 12:51 PM

Sparrowhawk,
There are a lot more point of aim issues with shotguns that many realize. I think if I needed to put some glass on one of my guns it would be a Burris FastFire II or Speedbead. They are just so compact and lightweight they don't mess the handling ability of the gun up at all. That seems to be the hot set-up for the turkey hunters with really great reviews. I think it should work great on a predator rig too. But everyone has an opinion and that's why there are so many options out there on the market.
Posted by: JCnAR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/12/11 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
JC,
The longer 24" barrel does pattern somewhat better. Now I also have a 26" barrel and have patterned it some too. It actually shoots just about dead even with the 24" barrel. Both will slightly outshoot the short 18 1/2" Tactical barrel. There probably isn't enough difference to worry about, though I might limit my shots at least five yards with the shortest barrel... if I thought of it in the heat of the moment.


Thank you sir! thumbup1
Posted by: TripleDeuce660

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/13/11 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Sparrowhawk
GC, sorry about the delay. Xtrema2 seems to be consistently throwing the center pattern about 4-5 inches left and about 6 inches low. Haven't shot it yet at 13 yards. Thinking I need to get a mount for it and plop an Aimpoint Micro or Leupold 1.5-5X on it and see it I can adjust POI to POA.



Have you considered the gun fit? Sounds like you need a different drop shim to raise the comb up maybe 5mm. That will raise your point of impact.

I'm going to guess you are a right handed shooter and the gun doesn't have enough cast for you . This is causing your eye to be slightly too far left. Confirm you have the shim set for the right handed shooter. If that is not enough then try relaxing your jaw when you mount the gun. That should allow your eye to move to the right relative to the rib and move your pattern to the right like you want it.

Just try mounting the gun. Now clench your teetch down tight and then relax your jaw. See how your eye moves? This may create enough cast for alot of folks, does the trick for me. It may not be enough for everyone but sounds like it would be enough for you. I've now taught myself to keep my jaw open when I mount the gun and what a difference I am crushing the targets! I used to clench my jaw to brace for recoil and it caused the shots to go too far left. As a result I would crush right to left targets but miss left to right.

I think its less that shotguns have POI problems and more that the stocks don't fit the shooter and/or the shooters form is bad.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/13/11 05:00 PM

Quote:
I think its less that shotguns have POI problems and more that the stocks don't fit the shooter and/or the shooters form is bad.


Which results in what... point of impact issues. Regardless of where the problem originates if the shotgun doesn't shoot where you aim it, it is a point of impact problem for you to deal with. But the advise about using the stock shims is a good one and can help with minor issues if the poster hasn't already done so and still has troubles. I guess I assumed the poster had already tried the easy stuff and still was left with a problem regarding point of aim/impact. Good reminder.
Posted by: JCnAR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/13/11 09:33 PM

Any of you guys gotten trigger jobs on your shotguns? I did some pattern testing with some new Turkey loads and I found myself pulling off a couple times due to the trigger pull. I think I'm going to send my trigger pack to the guy who did my BAR trigger and let him work his magic.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/14/11 12:06 AM

I never have before. My primary guns aren't bad at all in that department, but I've had some in the past that were pretty tough. A good trigger job would certainly have helped them.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/22/11 11:20 AM

I don't need a trigger job, but I certainly need a decoy dog like JCnR has.

If I owned THAT dog, I would be the motor scooter of coyote callers.
Posted by: JCnAR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/25/11 10:35 PM

LOL!! smile
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/28/11 06:04 PM

Just got a new Rem. 870 12ga.SM w/Sureshot stock and 23" barrel. So far I have the extra full that came with it meas. at .684,a Jellyhead meas. at .663,a Rem.Ventilator meas. at .653 and on the way a Mad Max 2 non ported .660. I'll be going to the range when the temps rise abit been in the 30's here. I will be shooting Rem. 3" HD BB's and #4 buck. I would some thoughts on the BB's/.663 Jellyhead. Is that pushing it abit too tight? I think I need to look for a .670.I think the Rem. Superfull is in that range.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/28/11 07:22 PM

Redcloud,
The "ideal" beginning constriction for your particular bore would most likely be about .675" for your gun. But remember, you just can't tell until you get them on paper and actually see what is happening when you pull the trigger. My .675" suggestion should be a good starting point to work from and might just work out well from the get go. If I were to err, it'd be on the larger side of things, toward .680" rather than tighter.
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/28/11 09:18 PM

Thank you GC I was kinda hopeing you would see my post. Your right on w/what I thought. I need to find a good choke in .67+ range.Going to try that .684 w/#4 buck probably could go abit tighter than that.
Posted by: Critter Gitter12

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/29/11 09:06 PM

just purchased an stoeger m3500 whats a good choke to shoot four buck or t shot?
Posted by: lukeyn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/11 08:13 PM

Shotgun is Mossberg 835 with Primos Jellyhead Choketube. Distance 40yds.

First Up...
Federal Premium 3 1/2 2oz. # 5


Winchester Supreme 3 1/2 2oz #5


Remington Nitro Turkey 3 1/2 2oz #5's


Lastly...
Fiocchi 3 1/2, 2 3/8oz, #4
Posted by: SUPER R

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/31/11 03:09 PM


I got a new Benelli M2 this week here are some results (sorry no pic's).

All shots taken with a IC .665 black diamond at 40yrds.

Winchester Supreme #5.....97 hits in a 10" circle

Hevi-Shot Premier HV Magnum 1 1/2oz #5....79 in 10"

Hevi-Shot 13 2oz #6.....144 in 10"

I feel like the more I shoot the new M2 the better my patterns will get. So far I really like it. First auto shotgun I've owned.

Thanks
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/05/11 08:19 AM

With all this patterning going on, has anyone compared the length of barrels on the same models?

I understand that you have to find the right choke and load combo.

I like the length (feel) of a 20” barrel, but I’ve always used a 26 plus length barrel.

Did you find it much easier to get a tighter pattern with a 24-28” barrel out to 40-50 yards?

Anyway, I need a new 12 ga for squirrel, turkey, coyote and deer (heavy wooded area) and just wondering how much of a difference there would be in a 20” verse 24” and above.

Maybe it’s covered and I just missed it.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/05/11 10:01 AM

The differences in individual barrels and chokes can be enough to cover any differences that barrel length might make. I have 18 ½”, 24”, and 26” barrels for my two different Benelli M1S90’s. By a change of choke or load I can make the results completely different and skew them how ever I’d like. As a very loose general rule, the longer barrels “might” pattern slightly better overall after comparing the results of shooting dozens of loads and patterns.
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/06/11 10:01 PM

GC,

Thanks for posting the results of your findings and replying to me and everyone else.

Of coarse, thanks to all the great members of this website.

I ended up buying a Super Nova and it's time for me to start patterning as well.

Thanks again everyone!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/07/11 04:13 PM

Nuttin' to it, this is interesting stuff to me and I learn a lot by listening to others tell their experiences. Sometimes somebody says something that causes me to go back to the range and try something different, ect. and you can always learn something each trip if you're willing.
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/23/11 12:26 PM

I got to shoot my new 870 SM 23" yesterday and would like some comments on the results(no pics). All shots @ 32yds. as thats all I can get at our club range and shot counts are inside a 10" dia. circle drawn at the apperant center of pattern.

Rem.3" HD,BB Rem.Super Full .673 - 29 hits
Rem.3" HD,BB Jelly Head .663 - 18 hits
Rem.3' #4 buck(lead)SuperFull .673 - 13 hits
I have a Rem. extra full that is .684 that I didn't try(yet)but probably should. Also have a Mad Max 2 .663 but I think its likely too tight.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/24/11 12:07 PM

In response to your pm. Those are killing patterns at 32 yards, but likely too thin for more than 40 yards - at most.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/24/11 01:09 PM

Here is a new lesson that I learned recently. Hevi-shot T's tend to strike high on my targets at 40 yards, while Remington HD BB's and Federal lead BB's tend to strike low. With MY shotgun, it is going to be important to choose exactly which load I am going to use for coyotes and stick with it like epoxy glue. A frustrating but very interesting lesson was learned by this old man. I have quite a lot of Hevi-shot T's on hand at this time, and it shoots very dense patterns so I will set up my bead system for that load right now. I may go back to lead #4 BUCK later on because it shoots very dense patterns also.
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/24/11 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
In response to your pm. Those are killing patterns at 32 yards, but likely too thin for more than 40 yards - at most.

Do you think .658 is toooo tight for HD BB?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/24/11 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcloud
Originally Posted By: GC
In response to your pm. Those are killing patterns at 32 yards, but likely too thin for more than 40 yards - at most.

Do you think .658 is toooo tight for HD BB?


Yes, very much so.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/24/11 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
Here is a new lesson that I learned recently. Hevi-shot T's tend to strike high on my targets at 40 yards, while Remington HD BB's and Federal lead BB's tend to strike low. With MY shotgun, it is going to be important to choose exactly which load I am going to use for coyotes and stick with it like epoxy glue. A frustrating but very interesting lesson was learned by this old man. I have quite a lot of Hevi-shot T's on hand at this time, and it shoots very dense patterns so I will set up my bead system for that load right now. I may go back to lead #4 BUCK later on because it shoots very dense patterns also.


Rich,
It is interesting isn't it. I recently patterned some new Hevi-Shot Mag Blend turkey loads and they shot about 8" low from my camo M1. Since they didn't boost my numbers any more than my usual Hevi 13 3-2-6 load and the H13/3-2-6 shoots perfectly to point of aim it is an easy choice which one to hunt with. The all black Tactical M1 with the short 18 1/2" barrel shoots about 4" high all the time. Since the posted testing I've acquired a 26" barrel for the Tac M1 and it shoots perfectly to the bead with a flat 50/50 pattern. The camo M1 shoots a 60/40 pattern on the bead. Point being that if we don't pattern we don't know these things and mistakes will be made in the field that will loose animals and worse probably wound them also. It is a lesson I think is slowly taking root with shotgunners.
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/27/11 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcloud
I got to shoot my new 870 SM 23" yesterday and would like some comments on the results(no pics). All shots @ 32yds. as thats all I can get at our club range and shot counts are inside a 10" dia. circle drawn at the apperant center of pattern.

Rem.3" HD,BB Rem.Super Full .673 - 29 hits
Rem.3" HD,BB Jelly Head .663 - 18 hits
Rem.3' #4 buck(lead)SuperFull .673 - 13 hits
I have a Rem. extra full that is .684 that I didn't try(yet)but probably should. Also have a Mad Max 2 .663 but I think its likely too tight.
Went to the range again today with my Rem. Extra Full .684 and put up only slightly better #'s.
Rem.3" HD,BB 36 hits
Rem.3" #4 buck 16 hits
Well my chokes are all used up so I'm going to order one from Kicks or Pure Gold so they can work with me on getting the best pattern.At 32yds what kind of numbers should I be looking for?

Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/27/11 08:41 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
PART FOUR...

50 Yard Patterns...

Byron South and I have discussed this, we both feel you need at least five solid hits for reliable kills. I don't believe in the "magic pellet" and hoping for one or two lucky pellet strikes. Many of these new fangled hi-tech loads have the pellet energy for five good hits to reliably kill coyotes at long range. But can you get the pattern out there.

Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/27/11 10:04 PM

Redcloud,
Here is an updated summary of my patterning after tweaking to my .670" Kick's and my Benelli M1S90. A cut-n-paste to compare your results with...

Using the same procedure as in my original post, the Outers target has a black inner circle of 8" and scoring rings the largest of which reaches out to 12". At 25 yards (and all the ranges) I shot 5 targets with the Tactical/.670" HD-BB and 5 with the Turkey Model/.670" HD-BB combo. In the other testing I felt the 24" barrel of the Turkey Model Benelli slightly outshot the shorter 18 1/2" Tactical Benelli. Not this time, the Tac Model outshot the longer barreled Turkey brother with the .670" GT.

25 yard patterns gave me a saturated 8" circle with from 37 - 40 hits. The outer 12" rings all contained 55 - 62 strikes. It was obvious the Gobblin' Thunder .670" was shooting a very center dense pattern. Both guns shot right to point of aim with the choke and HD-BB load. It was a pretty impressive looking 25 yard performance.

40 yard performance went like this. The inner 8" took 25 - 30 hits. The 12" total count average 35 strikes.

The long range 50 yard patterns still held 10 - 12 pellet strikes in the inner black 8" circle. The outer 12" scoring rings contained 18 - 20 strikes. Now we're talking a pattern and load that can easily get it done at the half field mark. Ok, I'm broke...
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/11 08:25 PM

A little about me and where I hunt:

I’m from Texas and I recently lost my lease so I hunt in the Sam Houston National Forest (been hunting there off/on for 15 plus years) and the best hunting for predator’s is in dense cover so I decided to start using a shotgun in these areas.

Needlees to say, I'm new (January 2011) to predator hunting, but not new to hunting (coonhunted w/ hounds for over 22 plus years) and I still have a lot to learn!


Buckshot is not allowed so I must find a load/choke combo and I’m very grateful that GC and many others have shared their findings which have gave me some information and starting points!

My Goal:

To place at least 8-10 pellets within an 12” ring, with skin/muscle piercing and bone crushing results for an ethical kill (head or body shots)at 50yds.


Weather:

04-29-2011, Clear, breezy 5-10 mph, 60 degrees at 8:45 am and 86 degrees at 3:30 pm

Equipment and setup:

I’m using a 12 GA Benelli-Supernova w/ a 28” barrel (.723") bore,and a Bushnell Banner (Dusk & Dawn) shotgun scope. I built a target stand (1/4" plywood & 2x4) for a sitting position, tripod w/V-yoke, camo folding up chair, and I used a Nikon 550 Prostaff range finder for distance measuring.


Distances and targets:

25, 40, and 50 yds

12” X 12” paper target w/ 12” outer ring, 8” black outer ring , 2 “ black ring around bullseye.

I’m also using white pages (phonebook) w/ 525 pages for penetration/depth testing. I drilled a hole in the top of each phonebook, placed two of them side by side and used a heavy duty staple gun to attached my target to them and hung’em on a screw (cut off the head) in the center of the stand.


Chokes and Ammo:

Listed is what I’m starting with for now, but will continue to try other load/choke combos in the future.

Kick’s Howler H .690” ported choke that extends from the barrel approximately 1 3/8"
Manufacture’s suggested usage: Howler H choke are intended for use with Hevi-shot Dead Coyote


Kick’s Gobble Thunder .670” ported choke that extends from the barrel approximately 1 3/8"

"Gobblin Thunder" chokes are not recommended for steel shot or Hevi-shot.

Manufacture’s disclaimer: Gobblin Thunder chokes are specifically designed for lead shot.
The user assumes all risks from the use of Hevi-shot, Hevi 13, or other high density pellets (for people like me)


Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz BB, 10 per box

Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz #2, 10 per box

Remington 3” Nitro Turkey 1210 FPS, 1 7/8 oz # 4 (extra hard lead), 10 per box


Benelli Factory Modified choke .704
Winchester 3” Drylok Super Steel, 1300 FPS, 1 3/8 oz # 3, 25 per box

Note: Made one shot at 50 yds, 22 hits in 8” and 26 hits in 12” , total of 48 hits out of 217 pellets (22%). Only 18% of the steel penetrated the white pages ½ way so I decided to stop testing this load.


Three (3) shots w/ ammo/choke combo at same distance, but using a different target each time for POI reference.

I shot one combo at 25, 40, & 50 yds and moved onto the next combo. After going through all the combos, I repeated the 40 & 50 yd combos 3 times each to ensure that my POA didn’t need to be adjusted or that my patterns results differed.

Note: I cleaned the barrel and chokes after shooting 3 rounds (to ensure consistency) which took up 65% of my time during testing.
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/11 08:25 PM

Unfortunately; My camera went out shortly after getting started so I will have to post pattern pictures (saved targets) at a later date.

Summary(averaging) :


25 YDS, 12” circle = Yielded 91-93% of the load and penetrated the white pages and plywood backing:

Howler H .690 & GT ..670

Remington 3” Nitro Turkey 1210 FPS, 1 7/8 oz # 4 (extra hard lead), 254 Pellets

Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz #2, 103 Pellets

Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz BB, 72 Pellets
Note: All loads and choke combos will do the job at this distance!


40 YDS with Howler H .690

Remington 3” Nitro Turkey 1210 FPS, 1 7/8 oz # 4 (extra hard lead)
8” Black 82 + 12” White 63 = 145 hits out of 254 Pellets = 57%
Note: Penetrated white pages, but did not penetrate plywood

Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz #2
8” Black 52 + 12” White 12 = 64 hits out of 103 Pellets = 62%
Note: Penetrated white pages, and 18% went through plywood


Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz BB
8” Black 25 + 12” White 19 = 44 hits out of 72 Pellets = 61%
Note: Penetrated white pages (twice the size exit hole than #2 &#4), and penetrated plywood 1/8”

Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/11 08:25 PM

40 YDS with GT .670

Remington 3” Nitro Turkey 1210 FPS, 1 7/8 oz # 4 (extra hard lead)
8” Black 94 + 12” White 58 = 152 hits out of 254 Pellets = 60%
Note: Penetrated white pages, but did not penetrate plywood



Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz #2
8” Black 48 + 12” White 16 = 66 hits out of 103 Pellets = 64%
Note:Penetrated white pages, and 18% went through plywood



Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz BB
8” Black 28 + 12” White 16 = 44 hits out of 72 Pellets = 61%

Note: Penetrated white pages (twice the size exit hole than #2 & #4), and penetrated plywood 1/8”. Also the total hits are the same as with the Howler, but holds a tighter 8” pattern at 40 yds.

50 YDS with Howler H .690

Remington 3” Nitro Turkey 1210 FPS, 1 7/8 oz # 4 (extra hard lead)
8” Black 29 + 12” White 37 = 66 hits out of 254 Pellets = 26%
Note:Penetrated about ¾ (pages 320-390) of the white pages

Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz #2
8” Black 24 + 12” White 13 = 37 hits out of 103 Pellets = 36%
Note:Penetrated white pages, and 10% went into plywood 1/8”


Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz BB
8” Black 18 + 12” White 20 = 38 hits out 72 Pellets = 53%


Note:Penetrated white pages (twice the size exit hole than #2 &#4), and penetrated plywood 1/16” (if that)
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/11 08:26 PM

50 YDS with GT .670

Remington 3” Nitro Turkey 1210 FPS, 1 7/8 oz # 4 (extra hard lead)
8” Black 40 + 12” White 44 = 84 hits out of 254 Pellets = 33%
Note:Penetrated about ¾ (pages 320-390) of the white pages

Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz #2
8” Black 32 + 12” White 16 = 48 hits out of 103 Pellets = 47 %
Note:Penetrated white pages, and 10% went into plywood 1/8”

Remington 3” Wingmaster HD, 1300 FPS, 1 ½ oz BB
8” Black 22 + 12” White 10 = 32 hits out of 72 Pellets = 44%
Note:Penetrated white pages (twice the size exit hole than #2 & #4), and penetrated plywood 1/16” (if that).

Conclusion:

The size of the choke had no effect on penetration depths from what I could see (eyeballing).


Turkey Nitro is just that for Turkey hunting. Even though testing shows it could kill a predator at 40 & 50yds, I would have to be ready for a follow-up shot. Morally - not a good idea for various reasons.

HD # 2 pattern best with GT .670 and penetrates deeper (plywood) than the BB and does less damage to the phonebooks at 50yds.

HD BB patterns best with Howler H and does twice the damage (exit hole) to the phonebook, but doesn’t penetrate the plywood as deep as the #2 at 50yds.

I’ll let everyone else make there own conclusions from my testing. For now, I will use the BB because of it's size and the damaging effect on the phonebooks! However, either BB or # 2 will get the job done at 50yds in open country.

The question(s) for me is how will they do in dense cover or is there a better load/choke combo confused

I feel a test coming on thumbup
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/11 08:26 PM

All the supplies used for testing and cleaninng.

Chair, gun, and shooting tri-pod

Target stand with phonebooks and target
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/11 08:27 PM

Powerpoint slides: I would like to take the time and say thanks to my wife for doing this and for helping with the testing!





Posted by: frenchfur

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/11 08:31 PM

thanks to all your hard(fun) work,,,very informative
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/11 08:33 PM

Excellent post and great addition to this thread. Thumbs up!
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/01/11 11:33 AM

Thanks GC for your help and input, I won’t have gotten this far without your guidance.


At 50 yds, the steel and extra hard lead lost a lot of energy, which was evident on impact (looking through the scope), but the HD stuff rocked (shook) the stand!

After reading many, many posts, articles about loads/choke combos, the HD stuff seems to be on up there with the Dead Coyote stuff, but I haven't tried it myself.....not sure it's worth double the price!!!!

Also, after reading, it seems that the shorter (length) barrel on the same/similar make, models, & bore size, work better with the tighter chokes than the longer barrels which could be because of the (barrel lengths) taper from the breech to the muzzle, not sure though (just a thought).

One thing is for sure (as stated many times by GC), pattern, pattern, pattern that gun and load/choke combos before going hunting, because shotguns can be just as finicky about loads/chokes as any rifle can be with twists and ammo!!!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/01/11 12:05 PM

Again, I know how much work, time, effort and money goes into a test such as this, congrat's to you for going through all that and sharing it with us.

Buried somewhere in the beginnings of this thread Derbyacresbob did some penetration testing through catalogs bound together and his original testing confirmed that the HD penetrated very deeply. Considerably farther than lead and certainly further than steel. Your test add to the data base we are accumulating here.

My own testing on fur confirms this... wink
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/11 07:34 AM

Nice post TXCOONDOG. My tests came up with the wingmaster #2 giving me 18-25 in a 10" cirlce at 50 yards. Can't remember the shot charge offhand but it's written down and ammo is stocked. I rarely use my shotgun but I like knowing it's patterned and ready. I had hoped For a 50 yards BB load but tried many kinds and wasn't satisfied. I am curious if you have pics of the damage the #2 did to the plywood or phone books? I didn't do any penetration tests.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/11 07:37 AM

Has anyone shot a yote with #2 wingmaster or other high density loads?
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/11 11:23 AM

No pics of the phonebooks or plywood, my camera went out and I haven't replaced it yet because I keep spending my money on other things.

However, Both BB and # 2 went through the 525 page phonebooks @ 50 yds.

I've posted the depths from each load under notes of each combo.

Since this is birthing season for most predator's, I switched to fishing until fall so I haven't shot anything with the loads.

Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/11 12:00 PM

Well, My wife trashed the phonebooks so I took pics of the stand with a camera phone (sorry for the poor quality ).





Posted by: doggin coyotes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/11 12:31 PM

How about the Hevi-Shot/Hevi-Metal stuff in size BB?

Seems like I read somewhere in this thread where somebody did some testing with it, but I can't find it now.

(Seems like it was very brittle and turned to powder upon impact? Or do I have my ammo mixed up?)
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/11 09:16 PM

dead coyote is brittle. Wasn't impressed with it on foxes. Box to box patterns weren't consistent either.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/23/11 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: doggin coyotes
How about the Hevi-Shot/Hevi-Metal stuff in size BB?

Seems like I read somewhere in this thread where somebody did some testing with it, but I can't find it now.

(Seems like it was very brittle and turned to powder upon impact? Or do I have my ammo mixed up?)


Look for derbyacresbob's post about penetration testing. Bob did a great job of that. And yes, there have been some guys complaining about a brittle mix of the EnvironMetal tungsten. BTW, the HeviMetal is a mix of tungsten and steel shot, mostly steel.
Posted by: doggin coyotes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/24/11 12:02 AM

"BTW, the HeviMetal is a mix of tungsten and steel shot, mostly steel."

I looked for the actual composition of the stuff but never could find it. Mostly steel huh. I already don't like the sounds of that. smile

Thanks Gary.
Posted by: Takem

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/24/11 06:16 AM

I think it's more of a waterfowl load
Posted by: beagler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/24/11 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Takem
I think it's more of a waterfowl load

+1
Posted by: TripleDeuce660

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/03/11 03:26 AM

I turned the HD 3" BB and dead coyote choke on a jack rabbit the other day. Maybe 20 yards max. Never seen a jack drop so fast! When the dust cleared it hadn't moved one inch! Dang near every bone in its body was shattered. Havne't seen a dog in nearly 30 stands! Hope to get one with the shotgun soon!
Posted by: Commodorefirst

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/24/11 08:53 PM

thought I would share some recent work with the old 1100 3" magnum, that I converted to my turkey, self defense and yote gun.

(As a reminder from early in this thread way back, I shortened the barrel on the 1100 magnum, 30" barrel to 19" and had a tru choke system installed.)

My current load this past year for yotes has been the tru choke Carlson Dead Coyote with the Rem 3" 1300 fps 41 pellets of #4 buck. A super load out to around 40 yds, and it also serves double duty as the farm and home gun. Very happy with how it shoots, patterns very well, and I am pleased, however, I shoot a lot over and around several lakes with ducks, and domesticated ducks in the areas, so I have and been using the Remi HD tungsten BBs recently and the patterns aren't as nice as with lead with the tru chokes, in any of them. Useable, but not up to my normal expectations as with the #4 buck loads.

(I also have Tru Choke Ic, mod and full and xtra full choke tubes)

for turkey I have been using either a truchoke extra full with 3" 2 oz of #4 lead, or the Rem HD tungsten #6 in the truchoke full, with pretty good pattern results, so I was fine there, but I really really wanted to shoot tungsten around the ponds all the time.

anyway, long story and I need to make it short,

I ordered the Kicks High flyer extra full and full chokes for the BB tungsten stuff and to see if I could improve the already good turkey loads even better.

Well, best few dollars I have spent in a while. and I will promise I will post pics of the patterns in the next week or two. I have a new coyote load - the High flyer extra full constriction with the Rem HD 3" BBs is just a super load, very dense, even spread, nice pattern without holes. The full choke high flyer I also bought, is almost as nice, but just a bit larger pattern. This will be perfect for some Geese this winter if I do something crazy and take the short barrel out for them instead of my HK Super Eagle. go figure, they were that good.

The #6 Rem HD tungsten with the high flyer extra full will also now be my turkey load full time.

As I said, pics of the patterns soon.

thanks all.

Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/24/11 10:40 PM

Good on ya for continuing to seek improvements and all but I have some bad news... I think Remington has discontinued the HD-BB load I like so well and you have now perfected for your own gun.
Posted by: Commodorefirst

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/25/11 06:15 PM

Yes, I think they have, but I have a few years supply since I plan on hunting more than patterning! By the way, dropped you a pm
Posted by: juangrande

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/19/11 08:02 PM

very cool test, and it confirms everything that i know of shotguns and large shot...

if i had to pick a load to try in the field, i'd like to get my hands on some #2 hevi-shot, in a max load and try them with various chokes... i have had decent luck with lead #2s at 50 yds, give or take, on coyotes...

i also was given some remington hevi-shot BBBs which worked well on the one coyote that i shot with them...

samll or isolated examples, like mine, do not equate to a test and i thank you for your efforts...
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/02/11 07:17 PM

32 pages of test results, and not a single attempt to prove this claim:



Product Description
All New Design - Now Ported! Throws dense, tight patterns out to 70 yards with large shot T's. Testing produced an average of 17 lethal T pellets in a 10” circle at 70 yards. With that kind of reach and impact, you can touch a lot of varmints for the last time, and increase your portion of the fur trade.The longer, parallel section in the choke combined with heat-treated 1704 stainless steel produce the compact patterns. Each has a blued finish and knurled end for easy insertion and removal. Lifetime warranty. 12 gauge only. For use with Hevi-Shot, Copper/Nickel-plated, or Lead ONLY - NOT FOR USE WITH STEEL SHOT.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/02/11 07:21 PM

Is their 70 yard claim full of you know what? Or are all of the 40-50 yard max test results posted here pathetic?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/02/11 10:20 PM

What's holding you back? All you gotta do is go to the range yourself and get with it. Keep us informed how this one works, so far all the other claims of 70+ yard killing patterns has been "exaggerated" advertising hyperbole.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/11 12:54 AM

I don't own a shotgun. But I've been researching a purchase.

It says right on the manufacturer's site...

"Devastating patterns... up to 70 yards.

Testing produced an AVERAGE of 17 lethal T pellets in a 10" circle at 70 yards."


That's way better than most reports here at 40-50 yards! blink
Is everybody here doing it wrong, or is this advertising BS?
Posted by: Crimson Raptor

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/11 01:06 AM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
I don't own a shotgun. But I've been researching a purchase.

It says right on the manufacturer's site...

"Devastating patterns... up to 70 yards.

17 lethal T pellets in a 10" circle at 70 yards."


That's way better than most reports here at 40-50 yards! blink
Is everybody here doing it wrong, or is this advertising BS?


If my product had that ability, I'd post video proof on every gun-related site I could find. So far, I haven't found that video.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/11 12:19 PM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
I don't own a shotgun. But I've been researching a purchase.

It says right on the manufacturer's site...

"Devastating patterns... up to 70 yards.

Testing produced an AVERAGE of 17 lethal T pellets in a 10" circle at 70 yards."


That's way better than most reports here at 40-50 yards! blink
Is everybody here doing it wrong, or is this advertising BS?


If a shotgun shot that tight of a pattern at 70 yards it would be like shooting a rifle at 35 yards.

I shoot most of my coyotes at 35 yards or less with a shotgun so I could care less about setting up a shotgun to kill coyotes at 70 yards.

If you want to kill coyotes at 70 yards use a rifle.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/11 02:19 PM

Some people could care less, some people could care more. Not everybody hunts the same way. If you like a looser pattern, there are plenty to choose from.

Point is, that's the claim they make.
Posted by: beagler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/11 08:45 PM

Most of us that hunt predators with shotguns know what that claim really is. rolleyes
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/03/11 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: beagler
Most of us that hunt predators with shotguns know what that claim really is. rolleyes


Somebody tried to sell me a bridge in Brooklyn once... I didn't buy that one either. smile
Posted by: 870 Shell Shucker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 09:19 AM

The claim of 17 pellets in 10" at 70 yards is either a total load of crap, or there was one magic shell that did it, never to be duplicated again.

I patterned 3" Winchester Supreme HV 1300fps 1.75 Ounce #5 Lead Turkey loads at 35, 40, 45, and 50 yards. Remington 870, with Indian Creek .665 choke. 50 Yards is no problem as far as the pattern is concerned, but I'd probably recommend #4 Lead over #5 Lead out past 40 yards for Coyotes.

Turkey loads probably kill as many coyotes as buckshot does.
Posted by: doggin coyotes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: 870 Shell Shucker
I'd probably recommend #4 Lead over #5 Lead out past 40 yards for Coyotes.


I wouldn't. I'd recommend #2 at a minimum and preferably BB or bigger.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 11:36 AM

17 pellets in a 10" circle at 70 yards was their AVERAGE, not one lucky shot. So they say... See quote above.
Posted by: frozenbutt

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 11:48 AM

Call patternmaster they will blow smoke on your backside too.

Hey did you hear that all the new bows kill deer at 70 yards too. So says the salesman at scheels.

By the way if you can get 17 pellets in a 10" circle at 50 I would say you are doing good.
Posted by: bobeano

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 11:55 AM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
17 pellets in a 10" circle at 70 yards was their AVERAGE, not one lucky shot. So they say... See quote above.



Kinda like a lot of the light guys,saying such-such lights id-ing animals at 250yds and further.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: 870 Shell Shucker
The claim of 17 pellets in 10" at 70 yards is either a total load of crap, or there was one magic shell that did it, never to be duplicated again.

I patterned 3" Winchester Supreme HV 1300fps 1.75 Ounce #5 Lead Turkey loads at 35, 40, 45, and 50 yards. Remington 870, with Indian Creek .665 choke. 50 Yards is no problem as far as the pattern is concerned, but I'd probably recommend #4 Lead over #5 Lead out past 40 yards for Coyotes.

Turkey loads probably kill as many coyotes as buckshot does.


I'm interested in how many coyotes you personally have killed with turkey loads? The ranges shot from, load and choke, and results would be interesting.
Posted by: Sgtshultzy266

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 02:12 PM

Hey GC...that question may make for an interesting thread in itself.
Ive personally killed 5 or 6 coyotes while turkey hunting. Geesh..I change shotguns as much as I change my underwear though...but for the most part over the last few years Ive been using a SBE2 with Rhino choke and # 6's. Starting with Winchester lead and now using Heviblend stuff now. Max range 38 yards with the yote facing me and it was DRT using the Win high velocity lead stuff. Admittedly, it was a small one though, about 25-30 lbs. Most of my shots have been much closer though and even larger dogs have dropped in their tracks.

Originally Posted By: GC
Originally Posted By: 870 Shell Shucker
The claim of 17 pellets in 10" at 70 yards is either a total load of crap, or there was one magic shell that did it, never to be duplicated again.

I patterned 3" Winchester Supreme HV 1300fps 1.75 Ounce #5 Lead Turkey loads at 35, 40, 45, and 50 yards. Remington 870, with Indian Creek .665 choke. 50 Yards is no problem as far as the pattern is concerned, but I'd probably recommend #4 Lead over #5 Lead out past 40 yards for Coyotes.

Turkey loads probably kill as many coyotes as buckshot does.


I'm interested in how many coyotes you personally have killed with turkey loads? The ranges shot from, load and choke, and results would be interesting.
Posted by: frozenbutt

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 02:27 PM

I killed one with fed #5 3" turkey loads at 25 yards once. First shot dropped him second shot dropped him third shot again dropped him fourth shot got him to stop from trying to get up, after that I walked over to him and bashed him with a large rock to kill him. Shot placements were 1 in the ribs, 2 in the neck and one to the head and still was trying to get away.

What CG is saying is guys that claim I shoot all my coyotes with 4-5-6 shot most likly only have shot a couple.

Trust me I shot all kinds of loads in the field at yotes and 4,5 and 6 shot have no place out there.

Do yourself and the coyote a favor and go with 2 or bb shot and bigger.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 02:28 PM

For me a good coyote load has to be able to breakdown or drop a coyote that is facing away from me at 40 yards. Coyotes are not always facing me when I shoot at them.

When I first tried killing coyotes with a shotgun I was using Federal Premium 3" lead copper coated 2's and lead copper coated BBs that I had from goose hunting. The coyotes that were shot with the 2's at bad angles would run off, even at 30 yards.

The copper coated BB loads would break the coyotes down and stop them. One lead BB pellet weighs almost twice as much as one #2 lead pellet weighs.

I don't want to hunt coyotes with loads that will only kill them with head shots at 40 yards and less.
Posted by: frozenbutt

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 02:30 PM

Oh and for the ones that say you only killed one with turkey loads yourself, I say yes exactly only KILLED one.
Posted by: Tim Neitzke

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
I It says right on the manufacturer's site...

"Devastating patterns... up to 70 yards.

Testing produced an AVERAGE of 17 lethal T pellets in a 10" circle at 70 yards."




You guys are over looking sumtin....

Doesn't say how many shots it takes to get 17 lethal pellets in a 10" @ 70.
grin
Posted by: beagler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/04/11 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
I'm interested in how many coyotes you personally have killed with turkey loads? The ranges shot from, load and choke, and results would be interesting.

I've killed three myself (in front of hounds) with regular #4 shot. We used to run fox with my dad's hounds when I was younger, that was before coyote really became so numerous. That was in the early 90's. Our typical shell was a 3" #4 copperplated load. The three coyote I killed were about 40yds,40yds and 25yds respectively. One required two shots to put down.
Now we use #4 buck or Dead Coyote shotshells as far as coyote are concerned. I've been using heavyweight BB loads where there is an equal chance of a fox/yote showing up with some success as well.
Posted by: 870 Shell Shucker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/05/11 01:00 AM

Quote:
I'm interested in how many coyotes you personally have killed with turkey loads? The ranges shot from, load and choke, and results would be interesting.


What I'm saying, is that Turkey Hunetrs, who happen to be hunting Turkeys at the time, kill a lot of Coyotes with Turkey Loads, because that is what they have loaded in their shotguns at the time. Most Turkey hunters also don't care if they are able to retrieve the animal for the pelt. Dead right there, dead in the thicket, whatever. They shoot every Coyote they see while Turkey hunting. Thus my claim that Turkey Loads probably kill as many Coyotes as Buckshot does.

Could you not read my last post whithout getting all fuzzed up?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/05/11 11:09 AM

Originally Posted By: 870 Shell Shucker
Quote:
I'm interested in how many coyotes you personally have killed with turkey loads? The ranges shot from, load and choke, and results would be interesting.


What I'm saying, is that Turkey Hunetrs, who happen to be hunting Turkeys at the time, kill a lot of Coyotes with Turkey Loads, because that is what they have loaded in their shotguns at the time. Most Turkey hunters also don't care if they are able to retrieve the animal for the pelt. Dead right there, dead in the thicket, whatever. They shoot every Coyote they see while Turkey hunting. Thus my claim that Turkey Loads probably kill as many Coyotes as Buckshot does.

Could you not read my last post whithout getting all fuzzed up?



I'm not quite sure how to respond to you now. You were recommending turkey loads for 40+ yard coyotes so I wondered what your actual experiences were with that. Mine have been pretty dismal with about a dozen called coyotes shot with 3” magnum loads of plated/buffered lead #4 turkey loads. And most of those were much closer to 30 yards than the 40+ yards you reference in your post. This is a predator hunting website; we hunt predators by choice not coincidence and strive to make clean humane kills and a quick recovery of our quarry. I guess I don’t understand a lot of things but this stuff interests me immensely and I always want to listen and learn from others experiences and compare that to my own to help me personally improve my hunting success and experience. Thus the question I asked about what you had seen with coyotes you had personally shot with the loads and at the ranges you were recommending. But evidently you haven’t actually done any of that so now according to you I guess that makes me “fuzzed up.”
Posted by: frozenbutt

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/05/11 12:00 PM

Originally Posted By: GC

This is a predator hunting website; we hunt predators by choice not coincidence and strive to make clean humane kills and a quick recovery of our quarry. I guess I don’t understand a lot of things but this stuff interests me immensely and I always want to listen and learn from others experiences and compare that to my own to help me personally improve my hunting success and experience.


thumbup
Posted by: Bob .17

1 - 12/05/11 01:13 PM

1
Posted by: Tim Neitzke

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/05/11 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: 870 Shell Shucker

Turkey loads probably kill as many coyotes as buckshot does.


I bet not.
Posted by: 870 Shell Shucker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/11 01:29 AM

Quote:
This is a predator hunting website; we hunt predators by choice not coincidence and strive to make clean humane kills and a quick recovery of our quarry.


You are so considerate of the predator's feelings about the whole process of being shot. It's a predator that eats baby turkeys, among other things, and I don't consider it a trophy. It doesn't care how I feel about it eating baby turkeys, and I don't care how it feels about being busted up by a heavy turkey load. If I find him, good. If I don't find him, but he dies anyway, good. It's more of a target of opportunity.

Now if I am specifically trying to kill coyotes, I use Buckshot. But they don't get a pass during Turkey season either.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/11 10:54 AM

You are right, I am considerate of anything I hunt and whenever I make a decision to take an animals life I do so very carefully and with a plan to make that kill as humane as possible. The difference between me and the coyote is I have the ability to think clearly and use logical reasoning along with a conscience I must live with. Guess I'm just not as mad at coyotes as you are to have that "kill 'em all at any expense" attitude.
Posted by: frozenbutt

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/11 01:32 PM

A coyote has got to do what a coyote's got to do and that means eating.

Oh and GC +1
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/15/11 11:03 AM

I tested the Carlson's Dead Coyote choke tube with 3" Heavy Shot Dead Coyote T shot at 25, 30, 40, and 50 yards. Their advertising is pure BS. Up to 70 yards my ***!

25 and 30 yards is devistating.
40 yards is acceptable.
50 yards is pushing the limits.
Posted by: TripleDeuce660

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/23/11 11:44 PM

Just not enough pellets in that load!

The BB loadings offer more pellets with enough energy when pushing 50+ yards. Try the federal BB 3" lead or federal heavyweight coyote BB.

Not sure if it has been posted on here but all of the tungsten loads are discontinued. No more wingmaster HD which really sucks cuz it patterns so nice! Now it is just the federal heavyweight or dead coyote and all the others are discontinued due to rising tungsten prices. Can't really use lead in my part of CA so I don't have any options and it sucks.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/25/11 12:39 AM

Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660
Just not enough pellets in that load!

The BB loadings offer more pellets with enough energy when pushing 50+ yards. Try the federal BB 3" lead or federal heavyweight coyote BB.

Not sure if it has been posted on here but all of the tungsten loads are discontinued. No more wingmaster HD which really sucks cuz it patterns so nice! Now it is just the federal heavyweight or dead coyote and all the others are discontinued due to rising tungsten prices. Can't really use lead in my part of CA so I don't have any options and it sucks.


http://www.basspro.com/Remington-HD-Ultimate-Home-Defense-Shotshells-12-Gauge/product/10215215/44043

Buy a bunch of these loads TripleDeuce660, they will work better than steel and they are cheaper than steel.
Posted by: CATWHISKERS

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/30/11 08:37 PM

IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR MAGIC, IT IS NOT CHEAP.
TURKEY LOADS NITRO CORP. SHELLS. Rhino choke tube.
now that is magic.
Posted by: doggin coyotes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/30/11 11:22 PM

I ain't looking for magic. I just wanna kill coyotes.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/11 12:01 PM

The Hevi Shot "dead coyote" is a coyote killing devil with correct choke for your gun. But then again, I am just a crazy old Grandpa.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/11 12:05 PM

Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/11 04:57 PM

What load? 3" T's or #4 buck?
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/11 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
What load? 3" T's or #4 buck?

-------------------------------------
That was 3" Hevi shot "T,s)" Every shotgun is different, but the T shot gives me the most dense patterns. Since it is so expensive, I shoot 3" copper plated lead #4 BUCK most of the time right now. For some unknown reason, the T shot throws its pattern higher than the lead loads, so I need to set my sights for which load I choose to use. I use a twin bead system, and the rear bead is my rear sight. Taller rear bead gives me more elevation. These tight patterns have forced me to aim the shotgun just like I would a rifle.

Ya know Dirty Dog, I tried one of the first "Dead coyote" tubes when they first hit the market. Absolute waist of money. To be fair I must add that Carlson appears to have made some changes in their "Dead Coyote" tube design, and they are likely a lot better now.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/11 07:32 PM

I bought a "new" ported design Dead Coyote tube thinking it was "The" solution, and I'm not impressed with Dead Coyote 3" T shot patterns at all. Maybe I'll try another brand...
Posted by: Ricky Bobby

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/31/11 07:40 PM

Give the Primos Dead Dog choke a try. It has a .680 constriction. I bet you'll have better luck with it.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/12 10:18 AM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
I bought a "new" ported design Dead Coyote tube thinking it was "The" solution, and I'm not impressed with Dead Coyote 3" T shot patterns at all. Maybe I'll try another brand...

-------------------------------
Dog,
What brand and model is your shotgun? I ask this because I need to know the nominal bore diameter before I suggest choke tube diameter for you. I lean towards Kicks Industries tubes though.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/01/12 05:52 PM

Rem 870 Tactical. I'm gonna order a Kick's Howler for T shot before I waste anymore ammo on patterning.
Posted by: TomG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/02/12 06:33 PM

I own a 12ga Rem. SuperMag Turkey/Predator-20" barrel and so far I can't out-do the original choke that came with it, including the new ported Calson Coyote choke. With DC T's with the DC choke I would shoot at a yote under 40yds. I would use the orignal choke out to 50 with the T's. 4BK didn't pattern well at 35yds.
If anyone knows of a better choke please let me know for a 20" barrel.
Comp-N-Choke recommended their .655 for #4Bk. Not good.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/03/12 12:12 PM

Originally Posted By: TomG
I own a 12ga Rem. SuperMag Turkey/Predator-20" barrel and so far I can't out-do the original choke that came with it, including the new ported Calson Coyote choke. With DC T's with the DC choke I would shoot at a yote under 40yds. I would use the orignal choke out to 50 with the T's. 4BK didn't pattern well at 35yds.
If anyone knows of a better choke please let me know for a 20" barrel.
Comp-N-Choke recommended their .655 for #4Bk. Not good.

----
They probably meant #4 BIRD, not BUCK.
Posted by: 870 Shell Shucker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/10/12 03:29 AM

Quote:
4BK didn't pattern well at 35yds.
If anyone knows of a better choke please let me know for a 20" barrel.


My 870 with 28" Barrel and .690 Primos Dead Deer choke does well with Winchester and Remington 00Buck, and Remington #4Buck at 40 Yards, but I didn't pattern any farther than that. 9-10 00Buck pellets in 10" at 40 Yards, shot after shot. The only problem is that I believe the "Dead Deer" chokes were only made for a year or two, and then discontinued. I own 3, a RemChoke .690, INV .690, and INV+ .700, and they all pattern well. Good Luck.
Posted by: PAverminator

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/12/12 12:18 PM

Have any of you guys tried different length barrels in your pattern testing? Reason I ask is I have a 18" and a 26" barrel for my 870. I like the maneuverability of the short barrel, but was wondering if the longer barrel would give better results at say 40 or 50 yards.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/12/12 02:46 PM

I did a search with the Google Custom Search here and came up with eight pages of discussion regarding this. It gets tossed around every once in awhile. Here is a cut-n-paste reply I posted in one of those discussions...

Generally speaking the longer barrels might tend to pattern somewhat better and will give slight increases in velocity. The velocity thing is very slight, like maybe 5 - 10 fps per inch of shotgun barrel depending upon the load. With field loads there is less of a difference than with a heavy magnum type load. This makes the velocity factor pretty much a non-issue when considering common hunting lengths like the difference between a 23" turkey specific barrel and a 26" wingshooting/general use barrel. For predator or turkey specific I really like 24" barrels with a close second being a 26" length.

Patterning is much the same kind of deal. The differences in individual barrels and chokes and how they react to a certain load can negate any advantage length may play in giving a better pattern. As an example, I have 18 1/2", 24", and 26" barrels for my two Benelli M1S90 semi-auto 12's and they all take the exact same chokes. The 24" and 26" are pretty much even in pattern densities with no clear advantage to either one. Most of the time both of those two will out pattern the shorter 18 1/2" barrel. Sometimes by a great degree, sometimes by not so much. However, in at least one instance the shortest barrel will out shoot the other two with a certain load and choke. Which reminds me that there are no set hard and fast rules and I always try to speak in general terms.
Posted by: nightwatch

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/21/12 01:29 AM

Only Coyotes I ever shot, was when I was turkey hunting. Used #6 2oz 3inch Turkey Load, and DRT at 30-40 yards. But I Bet #4 Turkey load in anyting 2oz or better will knock the crap out of them. Just my 2 cents. Oh and that was with a X-full Turkey choke out of my 28inch Rem870.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/21/12 12:46 PM

Over 30 yards and you can usually expect poor results. And I am not speculating.
Posted by: Muskyman22808

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/22/12 08:56 PM

OK My friend that I hunt with has an 1187 with a kicks card shooter .640 that he turkey hunts with. Just for the heck of it he shot a load of dead coyote t shot to see how it patterned. At 30 yards there were 2 pellets outside of a pie plate. I know thats a little tight, but at 60-70 yds i would say it would be pretty good. I am wondering if this is a fluke to have tshot pattern this tight with that tight of a constriction. I am thinking about trying the .650 constriction in my sbe2 hopefully to have the pattern open a little but not alot, but dont want to waste my money if chances are it wont pattern at all.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/22/12 09:00 PM

That is awfully tight for that large tungsten shot. I'd be careful...
Posted by: Muskyman22808

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/22/12 09:14 PM

Be careful of what?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/22/12 10:31 PM

Bulged barrel or choke...
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 06:17 PM

Per GC's request on another post, here is some my personal patterning data. My primary shotgun is a Browning Citori with 3 1/2" chambers. All patterns are at 50 yds.

Here are some BB Patterns with different loads/chokes:

Here is a 3 1/2" load of Rem HD BB's with a Dead Coyote Choke .666"


Here is a 3 1/2" load of Rem HD BB's with a Terror .655" choke


Here is the same load with a Terror .675"



Here is a load of 3" Federal Heavyweight Coyote BB's with a Terror .675"



Here's some 3" Dead Coyote loads:
Dead Coyote choke .660"


Terror .675" choke
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 06:40 PM

Just for fun, I am showing my Turkey set-up, at $4.00 a pull it is expensive, but very effective.

3 1/2"Federal Heavyweight #5's with my .655 Terror
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 07:04 PM

Here are some patterns from my back-up gun. A Remington 870 with 3" chamber (I lengthened the forcing cone).

These are 40 yd patterns, the circles are 30" diameter for reference:

PatternMaster Choke and Fed. Premium 00 Buck
To bad buckshot isn't legal here


PatternMaster Choke and Hevi-Shot B's


PatternMaster Choke and Federal Lead BB's
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 07:15 PM

JBD,

That 50 yard pattern with the Fed. Heavyweight 5,s is very impressive! It would be interesting to see how far they would penetrate into 3/8" plywood. If they penetrate through that much plywood, you MIGHT just have a coyote killer there.

I noticed that your 50 yard patterns with Hevi-shot T's strike high on the target just like my Beretta does. If I decide to use the T,s all of the time, I plan to adjust my Burris speed bead to center the target. After seeing your dense 50 yard pattern with the #5 Federal Heavyweight, I am seriously thinking about trying some of those Federals in #2.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 07:26 PM

Look how my shotgun pattern strike a bit high at 50 yards with the Hevi shot T,s.



Which patermastern tube are you using in your latest post? The long range model? That bugger is a killer with 00 BUCK.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 07:32 PM

JBD,
Good stuff, appreciated. Is that Terror choke a ported wad stripping type? I've shot quite a bit of the Flite Control wad and never found a ported/wad stripping choke that shot them well. I'm betting you also know of several choke makers that specifically warn against using their ported chokes with the Flite Control wads.

Regarding the turkey data. I am shooting an Indian Creek .665" BDS and the Hevi13 3-2-6 load and breaking 200 pellets in the 10" @ 40 yards. It is a head shredder - gobblers hate it! smile
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 07:51 PM

When I bought the patternmaster about 10 yr ago, it was the only kind available, the only options were ported or plain. It is the long range version, I would guess. I bought it for its advertised buckshot patterns, but have since learned how awesome it is using steel shot when I got into waterfowling. It turns out it throws the Hevi-Shot pretty good as well.
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
JBD,
Is that Terror choke a ported wad stripping type?


No, it is a heavy walled choke made from a special material, which I can't remember. It was developed to pattern steel tightly at the highest velocities, it works well with other shot materials too smile

The down side to the Terror chokes (for double barrels only) is due to the thick extended portion of the choke. I can't put them in both barrels, there just isn't enough room. Thus, I usually put the .675 Terror in the bottom barrel and the Calrson's dead coyote choke in the top barrel.
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/23/12 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
I am seriously thinking about trying some of those Federals in #2.


To the best of my knowledge, the Turkey loads are only available in #5,6,& 7. The coyote loads are only availabe in BB size. The heavyweight brand is the high density stuff, 15grams/cc. The regular hd and hevi-shot stuff is around the 12gram/cc (I think) and lead is around 11grams/cc. They figure 5,6,7 is heavy enough for bigger birds (turkey/geese) and BB are big enough for coyote. #2's would be sweet if they were available.
Posted by: BPShunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/12 09:07 PM

Originally Posted By: JBD-TN
Just for fun, I am showing my Turkey set-up, at $4.00 a pull it is expensive, but very effective.

3 1/2"Federal Heavyweight #5's with my .655 Terror



Nice!
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 01:03 PM

I'm not thrilled with my patterns. Is this a "normal" pattern for my setup? Or should I try another choke?

40 yards, 3" white square, 20 hits inside green 10" circle
Rem 870
Carlson's Dead Coyote choke
3" Dead Coyote T shot

Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 01:37 PM

Yep, probably a pretty typical pattern. That is a dead coyote at 40 - 45 yards.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 03:08 PM

I recently installed a Burris "Speed Bead" red dot optic on my Beretta Extrema. Here are a couple of photos showing today's results. I used Winchester 3&1/2" #4 BUCK (54 pellet). This fodder is quite a bit lower priced than Hevi shot, and when you take a serious look at a pie plate from an honest 50 yards, it is a Lonnnggggg ways for a shotgun.


Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 04:47 PM

What choke? Very nice.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 04:50 PM

It is amazing how an extra ten yards affects a shotgun pattern. Rich, I always thought that if I put glass on my shotgun the Burris Fast Fire II / SpeedBead unit would be the one.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 04:57 PM

I'm waiting for the Burris Fastfire III to be released in Feb. Has a few upgrades over the model II.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 05:07 PM

I didn't realize they were bringing a new model out. I'm going to guess that you will no longer have to resight in after changing a dead battery out? I'm not ready to bolt glass on board my shotgun yet, that would seem to be a good candidate for such hunting uses like turkeys and predators.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 05:17 PM

Yup. Battery loads from the top, easy adjustable windage/elevation, adjustable brightness setting, and your choice of dot sizes 3moa or 8moa.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 06:45 PM

I had been thinking about mounting a low power scope on my shotgun, but chose the speed bead because of it's light weight and low profile.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 06:48 PM

Dirty dog,
The choke I am presently using is a .680 "Gobbling Thunder" from Kicks Industries.

Edited to add--- I suggest that you ask GC, but I am thinking that he found the Kicks .675 Gobbling Thunder to be best in his Remington. By the way, is it OK if I just yell "Hey, Yah Dirty Dog!" when I need you? lol
Posted by: zlaj3737

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/27/12 11:30 PM

Thanks for the pattern tests!! Its a wonder I hit my coyote at 65+ considering that shot hits high at 50 I have done more tests since I got drilled about it, and got my panties in a wad and my tests proved that you can deliver a fatal blow at 70 yards! Once again how do I post pics on here?
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/12 12:17 AM

Originally Posted By: zlaj3737
Thanks for the pattern tests!! Its a wonder I hit my coyote at 65+ considering that shot hits high at 50 I have done more tests since I got drilled about it, and got my panties in a wad and my tests proved that you can deliver a fatal blow at 70 yards! Once again how do I post pics on here?



Sign up at www.photobucket.com. It is easy, and it is free.
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/12 09:34 AM

I use tinypic.com , you just upload the picture and copy the web address in the desired format (the one with the [IMG at the front and back)and put it in your post.
Its free and no membership/sign in is required.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/12 06:35 PM

It was so windy today that my makeshift target stand blew over three times. The Beretta is still shooting well though.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/12 06:36 PM

Great looking pattern!!!
Posted by: JBD-TN

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/12 09:48 PM

Rich, that is a great pattern.

I watched my buddy pattern his 870 today while I was working on my 257. He just bought a new patternmaster choke and was dying to try it out. I have harped the benefits of patterning to him for some time. Today was an eye opening experience for him.

We set up at target at the 50yds and went to work , he was shooting it from the bench smile. His first shot with the new choke was Remington #4 Buck, its pattern was acceptable and centered on the target. His second shot was 3 1/2" Dead Coyote and that's where reality (and a little cheek pain)set in. It patterned 15-18" low, it patterned good enough to hunt with but not what he was expecting.I gave him a Fed. Premium 00 buck to try and it was an awesome pattern, about 24" in diameter. Next I gave him a 3" Dead Coyote load. It patterned low just like the 3.5", but the pattern was so much better. It gave a even, thick pattern that showed lots of promise. Next time I will have him pattern the 3" at 60yds to see how it holds up.


Lessons my friend learned:

1. Point of impact can vary between loads.
2. Bigger isn't always better, in shotgun shells anyway.
3. Let me take pictures of the tagrets before he leaves smile
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/29/12 12:09 AM

JBD,

It is an interesting and often head scratching ordeal, that shotgun patterning. Your friend's shotgun patterns LOW with Hevi-shot "T's", while mine shoots em high and left. I do believe that the T's will give me a ten yard advantage on sure kill coyote range, but what do I do with all of these lead loads after I set my red dot to center the Dead Coyote fodder? Choices, choices. rolleyes
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/30/12 04:23 PM

I'm gonna buy a choke for my 870 this week, but I'm really eerie on what to pick. I'm gonna use Hevi-Shot #T in a 3" mag. But I can only spend like $50 on a choke... not sure what the best constriction is for an 870 super mag barrel is? Help?
Posted by: dpittman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/30/12 08:04 PM

The .675 Undertaker HS is pretty decent out of my 870 with DC. And they can be had for around $20.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/30/12 09:19 PM

how decent of patterns?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/30/12 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: EasternPredHunter
I'm gonna buy a choke for my 870 this week, but I'm really eerie on what to pick. I'm gonna use Hevi-Shot #T in a 3" mag. But I can only spend like $50 on a choke... not sure what the best constriction is for an 870 super mag barrel is? Help?


Primos Jellyhead would be my pick for that amount of money. But the problem with a package choke is if it doesn't work out you're out of luck - period. Buy a true custom choke and if it doesn't work out then very often the maker will exchange it for another constriction to suit you.
Posted by: dpittman

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/30/12 09:48 PM

Around 25 "T" pellets in 10" circle at 40 yards.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 06:57 AM

wow that really good!! So based on a pattern that dpittman is getting,would the constriction .675 be a good place to start?
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 01:21 PM

I ordered a new Kicks Howler H (for T shot) choke a few weeks ago but it was on backorder. Just got it yesterday. It measures 0.700". Hmm I thought it would be closer to 0.680"... It's ok but it's not producing the tight groups I am looking for.

Here's some patterns with my Remington 870.

40 yards, 3" Dead Coyote T shot, Kicks Howler H


Another, 40 yards, 3" Dead Coyote T shot, Kicks Howler H


50 yards, 3" Dead Coyote T shot, Kicks Howler H


40 yards, 3" Federal #4 Buck, Kicks Howler H. Shoots slightly high.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 03:16 PM

Do you think the choke needs to be tighter? How tight?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 04:48 PM

Both Kick's and Indian Creek make their predator chokes too large in diameter, they need to be a tad tighter.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 05:31 PM

What is the best diameter choke for me to start at, using dead coyote #T? Again keep in mind, this is for an 870.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 05:59 PM

I don't know, but the 0.665" Carlson's DC choke seems to throw better patterns than the 0.700" Kicks Howler from my 870. Pattern size is about the same but the pellets are more evenly distributed with the Carlson's DC.

Fed 3" BB patterns sucked with the Kicks. Zero hits on a paper plate at 40 yards.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 06:45 PM

The answer is a Kick's Gobblin' Thunder in the appropriate constriction.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 06:52 PM

kicks has different constrictions for the gobblin thunder
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/31/12 09:25 PM

My answer is in response to Dirty Dogs post. Regarding your situation, nobody can tell you to get XYZ choke in .xxx" constriction and you are set. It just doesn't work that way. What works in someone else's gun may not shoot well at all in your bore. You have to do some of this work on your own in your particular gun. Buy a quality choke with a constriction of from .050" - .065" from your particular bore size and hit the range with a variety of predator specific loads. That is a ballpark figure and should get you close. If I were in your shoes I'd look at constrictions from about .665" - .680" for your Remington bore.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 06:55 AM

Thanks GC, that is exactly what I wanted to know. I appreciate it!

EPH
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 11:24 AM

Dirty Dog,
I am betting that the Kicks "Howler" is nothing but a Kicks "Buck Kicker" under another name. The Howler L is likely a little tighter. My Buck Kicker is .690, which would get me by, but their .680 Gobbling Thunder is even better. People like me are always searching for perfection. I found a Briley tube which is marked "Heavy shot Turkey". My dial caliper says the Briley is a .673, and I plan to try it out soon.I also ordered up a Wad Wizard "Supreme" which is their medium to long range model. If I don't like that one, they will refund my money. Stay tuned. smile
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 02:51 PM

I didn't see a Gobbling Thunder in .680 on the Kicks web site, which is why I just ordered the Howler a few weeks ago.
For the Remington 12g they only offer the Gobbling Thunder in:
.655
.660
.665
.670

Is the .680 a custom order?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 04:45 PM

Chuck at Kick's will make you one any way you want it. Just give him a call or an e-mail.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 06:58 PM

Hey ya Dirty Dog,

You are correct about Gobbling Thunder tube sizes for your Remington. What seems strange to me is that my Beretta with .732 bore is fitted with a .680 Gobbling Thunder. Your Remington is only .002 smaller in nominal bore diameter, but Kicks jumps to .670 for your gun. A .010 choke jump for a .002 difference in bore I.D.? crazy

I need to tell you that the choke tube companies (Kicks Included) are playing it safe. They don't recommend shooting hevi shot through their .680 either, but I do it anyway. Call em on the phone and ask what bore diameter the Howler H, and the Howler L are. I am betting that the Howler L is tighter.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 07:33 PM

My Rem 870 Kicks Howler H is .700" exactly.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 07:34 PM

Everybody likes pictures, so here you go:

Carlson's Dead Coyote for Remington .665"


Kicks Howler H for Remington .700"
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
My Rem 870 Kicks Howler H is .700" exactly.

----------------------------------
Wow! I'm sure that you will kill some coyotes with the .700, but you can do better. I'm also sure that they would exchange your howler H for something a little tighter. Their Buck Kicker X-Full maybe? I,m gonna go check their site to see what they offer for Remington.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 08:48 PM

Yeah I was suprised the Howler is so wide!

My $15 Carlson's modified choke is .710".
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/01/12 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
Yeah I was suprised the Howler is so wide!

My $15 Carlson's modified choke is .710".

---------------------
Yes, Carlson either makes em too large or too small.
Posted by: deerslyr1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/05/12 10:14 PM

ok i just got a mossberg 935 added a kicks howler choke & winchester superx 3.5" #4 buck

1st shot is at 50 yds, as you can see my gun patterens hig about 14-16" i need to get a different sight to be able to make the adjustments


this is the same set up @ 30 yds

what you guys think? i think if i can get it zero'd in it should be a 50 maybe 60 yd gun (didnt try at 60 yet)
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/05/12 10:23 PM

Get the point of aim and point of impact issue worked out and you probably have a 50 yard gun. I would not consider stretching it to 60 yards. An extra ten yards can wreck a pattern, they can simply fall apart at those distances.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/06/12 05:18 PM

Asked this on another thread as well. Are you guys using a rest or lead sled ect for patterning or shooting free hand?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/06/12 06:18 PM

Rest... just like sighting in a rifle. Trying to eliminate the human factor this is a test of barrel, choke and load, not the shooters ability.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/06/12 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Rest... just like sighting in a rifle. Trying to eliminate the human factor this is a test of barrel, choke and load, not the shooters ability.


Perfect... Thanks
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/09/12 11:23 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Rest... just like sighting in a rifle. Trying to eliminate the human factor this is a test of barrel, choke and load, not the shooters ability.


Have you ever used a bipod with a shotgun? I don't own a fancy rest... yet. I have a Harris bipod benchrest height and can come up with some sandbags for the stock. On my backyard shooting table, I use my toolbox with a jacket over it sometimes. I also have some shooting sticks, but don't like them much.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/10/12 10:10 AM

Whatever it takes to get steady and try to eliminate the human factor as much as possible.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/17/12 10:30 AM

going out to pattern the 870 this weekend!! I will get back to you guys with results.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/20/12 07:27 PM

Originally Posted By: zlaj3737
Thanks for the pattern tests!! Its a wonder I hit my coyote at 65+ considering that shot hits high at 50 I have done more tests since I got drilled about it, and got my panties in a wad and my tests proved that you can deliver a fatal blow at 70 yards! Once again how do I post pics on here?

-------------------------------------------------
I would love to see an honest 70 yard pattern. E mail me a photo of your 70 yard pattern and I will post it here for you.
cronkcalls@cox.net
Posted by: unloaded

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/25/12 05:01 AM

GC where are you finding those Rem HD BB loads? I can't seem to ever find them in stock anywhere.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/25/12 11:17 AM

Unloaded,
Try these folks http://www.woodburyoutfitters.com/catego...=10&page=10
Posted by: nocturnal

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/25/12 10:21 PM

Picked up some Rem Hevi-Shot (not HD) B-shot cheap and thought I'd give it a try. Any using out of a Mossberg 835 w/24" bbl. I'm looking for a choke starting point.

If it don't work out, I can always give it to my buddy for ducks/geese.

Thanks !!!
Posted by: unloaded

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/26/12 04:24 AM

Thanks RC.
Posted by: unloaded

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/29/12 11:27 PM

Doh! Waited too long to order, they are out of BB.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/01/12 11:33 AM

And worse, that load has been discontinued by Remington. I have a big stash of those HD-BB's so I'm good for awhile. However if it were me setting out to find a really great load right now I'd give the Federal Heavyweight Coyote Load of tungsten BB's using the Flite Control wad a real hard look. Don't use a ported or wad stripping choke. That Federal load has the potential to be something really special.
Posted by: unloaded

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/01/12 12:05 PM

I just ordered a bunch of different stuff. Another box of Fed Copper BB's, Some of the Rem 2-3/4 HD BB's, Win Extended B, and a few varieties of #4 Buck. Just picked up a Stoeger 2000 with 24" barrel. Not looking forward to patterning again but it's gotta be better than the Mossy 535.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/01/12 04:54 PM

Good luck, let us know how it shakes out in the end.
Posted by: carsonwild

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/12 11:53 AM

Woow awsome thread guys GC thanks for getting a great topic started.
Thanks everyone for all the great input and awsome pics of all the great load-choke patterns.
I went and patterned my Browning BPS with factory mod. choke about two months ago and it is shotting a foot high and left 6" at 40 yards with 3" dc t and 3" #4 buck Federal and rem both.
Oh i shot left handed if that tells you anything.
I was shotting at a 20" circle and got get hits even with point of aim being off.
When the weather slacks up some ill do a better pattern test with pics.
Again awsome thread and great work guys.
Posted by: bigoledodge

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/10/12 10:09 PM

have skimmed through this thread today...i shoot a mossberg 835 with an extra full choke and today at 50yds i got 34 bb s in a ten inch target today. with 12 of them being within a six inch circle of the bullseye. using winchester 3 1/2" high velocity 2oz #4 turkey shells. choke is the factory mossberg out of the set that came with the gun. i dont have a mic to measure the id of the choke. sorry
Posted by: beagler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/10/12 10:11 PM

#4 shot might be alittle light for coyote however. Ok, for fox.
Posted by: GLA.OR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/20/12 01:59 PM

GC I was wondering when you pattern at 13 yards would a lead load of say 4 buck show POI vs POA about the same as dead coyote. The dead coyote is getting more expensive and any thing I can get done with lead I would rather use it. I am considering getting a Super Nova so your Benelli info has proved interesting for me. I have a Stooger 2000 that I use now and it shoots all over depending on what you put through it. Even different brands of 4 buck shoot different. I had to go to a speed bead to use it. I sight in for one brand of shell and just stay with that. Right now I am using Dead Coyote as that has patterned the best and seams to have the most energy left at longer range. Longer range being 55 yards. I agree 70 yards is a rifle shot.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/20/12 04:31 PM

I screw in a full choke and shoot a field load or trap load at 13 yards to give me an idea of point of impact vs. point of aim. It works really well too. If the gun shoots in line left/right and no higher than 2" it is probably going to pattern pretty well to point of aim at 40 yards. If it is off to the side or much more than 2" high you are probably looking at trouble at longer ranges. You can make stock shim adjustments or sight adjustments here with inexpensive shells and be really close to where you need to be when patterning the high dollar shells at longer ranges. There is no need to use the expensive shells at 13 yards, save them for the longer range pattern testing. It is surprising how far off some guns can be even at that close range. The worst I've ever seen was my son's new Winchester SX3. It was 8" - 10" high and about four inches left at 13 yards. That worked out to about 30" high and 16" - 18" left at 40 yards. Since it had some serious jamming issues he swapped it back to the dealer and bought a new Benelli Vinci. That shoots a beautiful 60/40 pattern right on the bead.
Posted by: GLA.OR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/20/12 08:00 PM

Thanks for the reply. Thats good to hear. With dead coyote at $45 for ten at Cabelas now I didn't want to have to use that if I could help it. I have heard lots of good things about the Benelli guns one being they usually end up with the poi being the same as poa. The Stoeger I have shoots everything a little different but so I dont know if I could use lead close on that one but I will try next time I go out to see how it patterns close. At a distance it patterns the bird shot different than the buckshot. I think this one is possessed. It will only misfire with a live target such as a coyote or fox in front of it.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/21/12 10:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk


Thanks for the tip Rich!

I just ordered all the HD 3" 2's and HD 3" T shot they had.



Here is the pattern picture of Rem 3" HD 2's. I was very impressed with this pattern and the HD 2's out penetrated the Copper coated lead BBs by quite a bit.

I have only shot a few coyotes with the HD #2's and they worked great.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/22/12 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: derbyacresbob
[quote=Rich Cronk]Unloaded,
Try these folks http://www.woodburyoutfitters.com/catego...=10&page=10


Thanks for the tip Rich!

I just ordered all the HD 3" 2's and HD 3" T shot they had.



Here is the pattern picture of Rem 3" HD 2's. I was very impressed with this pattern and the HD 2's out penetrated the Copper coated lead BBs by quite a bit.
--------------------------------------
Looks like you are ready to roll my friend. Call em in close. thumbup

Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/22/12 10:07 AM

Bob,
Have you had any luck getting good patterns with the HD-T's? I never did get that load to pattern worth a darn. Dead Coyote T's I can get decent patterns with, but not those from Remington. On the other hand, the Remington HD-BB's always patterned beautifully.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/22/12 12:03 PM

GC, I don't remember if I patterned the Rem HD T shot Predator loads. I will try a few through my Carlson's DC choke and my Imp/Mod Sporting Clays choke.

The Rem HD T shot Predator load has been a great coyote load for me while using the Imp/Mod choke in my Rem 11/87.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/24/12 01:53 AM



GC, I guess I did pattern the Rem HD T shot loads because here is a picture of one of the patterns I did. confused
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/24/12 11:30 AM

I had one target that shot that well. It seemed to be a fluke and I could never get that same performance again.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/24/12 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
I had one target that shot that well. It seemed to be a fluke and I could never get that same performance again.


My son and I bought 30 boxes of these Rem HD T Predator loads a few years ago when one of his suppliers closed them out for $16.00 per box.

I only use the T shot loads for my third shot and use the HD 2's,BBs or Hevi-Shot B shot on the first two shots.
Posted by: 870 Shell Shucker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/12 08:39 AM

Yesterday I patterned some 3" Remington #4 Buck through a few chokes and guns at 40 Yards, with the temp in the low 80's.

My best pattern was 20 pellets in a 10.125" Circle at 40 Yards, very close to being dead on POA/POI, using a 3" 870 with a 28" barrel and a .675 Indian Creek Non-Ported special order only turkey choke.

Same 870 with a .665 Gobblin' Thunder choke gave me 15 in 10.125" at 40 Yards.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/12 01:20 PM

Twenty No. Four Buck pellets in 10" @ 40 yards is a dandy pattern! Did you try any 50 yard patterns?
Posted by: 870 Shell Shucker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/12 03:51 PM

Quote:
Twenty No. Four Buck pellets in 10" @ 40 yards is a dandy pattern! Did you try any 50 yard patterns?


No, I didn't think to back up any farther, but I was also out of posterboard at that point anyway.

With Turkey loads, I get good results using .665 Indian Creek Ported choke tubes in my BPS and 870, and somewhere along the way I picked up a Non-Ported .675 RemChoke which wasn't tight enough for the turkey loads, but appears to be just right for #4 Buck.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/31/12 12:53 AM

That choke is about .055" constriction from your bore which is right in that area that I have found to be pretty consistent for good patterns. When asked my usual advice is to search in the .050" - .060" constriction range for a sweet spot for 3" .12 gauge lead No. Four Buck and tungsten T's or BB's. With some juggling of constrictions in that area and load checking usually a guy can find a sweet spot. I'm shooting a .670" from my tight Benelli bores which gives me... are you ready? Yep, exactly .055" of constriction.
Posted by: timwalker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/06/12 07:19 PM

Does anyone know what the Dia. is on the
Carlson Dead Coyote Choke Tube For Winchester 1300 black shadow 3in ,i have a Primos jelly head on for turkeys,i use Heavy turkey blend 5,6,7..just wondering if its a tighter choke,doesn't say on the web site? Another thing in PA you can't use anything larger then 4 lead for anything which i don't get ??
Posted by: Cman962

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/10/12 10:10 PM

Anyone know what the barrel bore is on a Mossberg 835 with over bored barrel? I just picked up a 835 Deer / Turkey combo with 24" barrel and extra tight turkey choke that came with it. I want to pick up a choke tube with the magic .050-.060 constriction for coyote hunting.

Thanks
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/10/12 11:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Cman962
Anyone know what the barrel bore is on a Mossberg 835 with over bored barrel? I just picked up a 835 Deer / Turkey combo with 24" barrel and extra tight turkey choke that came with it. I want to pick up a choke tube with the magic .050-.060 constriction for coyote hunting.

Thanks

----------------------------------
Your bore diameter should be .775.
Posted by: Cman962

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/11/12 07:36 PM

Rich Cronk,
Thanks for the info.
I've been looking for Accu-Mag choke tube internal sizes with out any luck. Anyone know where I can find this info?
I'm looking for a .715-.725 choke size.
Thanks
Posted by: Cman962

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/11/12 08:42 PM

nocturnal,
I have the same setup as you 835 w/ 24" barrel.
Did you find a choke that patterned well with #4 Buck?

According to the patterning that has been done. We should have good luck with a choke in the .725-.715 range. I'm looking for manufacture with a choke in this range. The problem is all of them do not give you the ID dimensions of their chokes.

I did see the regular Mossberg choke tubes for the guns with regular barrels (not overbored) list a Imp Cyl as .720

Thanks
Posted by: Cman962

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/12/12 12:42 PM

Answering my own question. I found out the accu-mag full is 0.730, x-full is 0.715. Also see a carlsons ext steel shot tube long range at 0.727
My gun came with a ultra- full it checked at 0.692
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/12/12 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Cman962
Answering my own question. I found out the accu-mag full is 0.730, x-full is 0.715. Also see a carlsons ext steel shot tube long range at 0.727
My gun came with a ultra- full it checked at 0.692

--------------------------------
I would try that .692 tube just for giggles. Is it an extended tube? Here is a link to Primos Jellyhead tubes for you also. https://shop.primos.com/p-587-jelly-head-turkey-choke-tube-12-gauge-mossberg-835935.aspx
Posted by: Cman962

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/12/12 08:34 PM

Hi Rich,
Yes the 0.692 tube is an ext tube. I will try it too. I plan to pattern my gun this weekend. I am trying to locate a couple different size tubes locally.
All the Mossberg Accu-mag tubes I have found with the bore sizes listed have been the flush ones. I assume the same choke in extended versions ported or not will be the same bore sizes. Correct??

Thanks for the jelly head link.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/12/12 09:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Cman962
Hi Rich,
Yes the 0.692 tube is an ext tube. I will try it too. I plan to pattern my gun this weekend. I am trying to locate a couple different size tubes locally.
All the Mossberg Accu-mag tubes I have found with the bore sizes listed have been the flush ones. I assume the same choke in extended versions ported or not will be the same bore sizes. Correct??

Thanks for the jelly head link.

-----------------------------------------------
Yes, same bore size. The extended tube has a gradual tightening of the restriction, kind of like a funnel. They usually produce better patterns than do the short tubes.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/12/12 10:10 PM

CMan,
Just a point for clarity, the bore size is the barrel interior diameter and remains a constant. Your barrel is a .775" and is always going to be a .775". The constriction is in the choke and may vary according to which constriction you choose. Example of that is if you screw in an extended .715" for an extra tight pattern and/or trying to reach out for more distance. However if the expected hard chargers are in tight cover and shots over 30 yards aren't possible you might choose a more open constriction to give a modified choke type pattern so you might go with a .755" constriction flush mount. Make sense?
Posted by: Cman962

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/12/12 10:23 PM

Hey GC,
I didn't know the difference between the flush and ext choke tubes. Your explanation makes sense.
I meant the bore size of the choke tube not the barrel. of course the choke tube ID isn't the same all he way through so not the best terminology.
Your point is well taken.

I have got to pick up a variety of chokes and do so shooting.

I'm reading where a lot of guys are going with even more constriction than my 0.692 to reach out a little more with turkey loads.

Thanks for the info!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/12/12 10:29 PM

That .692" is giving .083" of constriction from your bore - that is A LOT OF CONSTRICTION. I would tread very carefully... in fact I personally would probably not go there.
Posted by: Bernie P.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/13/12 10:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Cman962
Rich Cronk,
Thanks for the info.
I've been looking for Accu-Mag choke tube internal sizes with out any luck. Anyone know where I can find this info?
I'm looking for a .715-.725 choke size.
Thanks

Accu-Mag chokes-
Mod .750
IC .765
F .730
XF .715
UM .695
S .770
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/13/12 11:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Bernie P.
Originally Posted By: Cman962
Rich Cronk,
Thanks for the info.
I've been looking for Accu-Mag choke tube internal sizes with out any luck. Anyone know where I can find this info?
I'm looking for a .715-.725 choke size.
Thanks

Accu-Mag chokes-
Mod .750
IC .765
F .730
XF .715
UM .695
S .770

----------------------------------
Check thee out. http://www.briley.com/mossbergulti-magchokes.aspx
Posted by: Bernie P.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/14/12 10:13 AM

Rich I got the IC,Mod and F a while back.Already had the UM.I've since bought a few new loads to try but haven't gotten around to it yet.I'll get back after I pattern them.
Posted by: Cman962

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/14/12 11:42 AM

Thanks guys!
I picked up an XF choke 0.715 late yesterday.
Hope to do some patterning today. It's raining pretty steady here right now. Hoping it clears up soon. If not tomorrow is supposed to be a beautiful day here.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/20/12 07:09 PM

"Cabela's Choke Tubes for Heavi Shot" (made by Carlson's) has the following non-ported tubes for Remington for $25 on sale:

.665" Turkey Super Full
.680" Turkey Extra Full
Posted by: Crabo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/28/12 07:24 PM

I haven't read all through this lately. What exactly is our goal for shotgun? How many hits inside of what size circle? I am going to start testing again.

Thanks,

Crabo
Posted by: TXCOONDOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/28/12 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: TXCOONDOG
[quote=GC]

50 Yard Patterns...

Byron South and I have discussed this, we both feel you need at least five solid hits for reliable kills. I don't believe in the "magic pellet" and hoping for one or two lucky pellet strikes. Many of these new fangled hi-tech loads have the pellet energy for five good hits to reliably kill coyotes at long range. But can you get the pattern out there.



5 pellets within 12" ring
Posted by: Crabo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/28/12 09:42 PM

Thank you.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/28/12 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: TXCOONDOG
Originally Posted By: TXCOONDOG
[quote=GC]

50 Yard Patterns...

Byron South and I have discussed this, we both feel you need at least five solid hits for reliable kills. I don't believe in the "magic pellet" and hoping for one or two lucky pellet strikes. Many of these new fangled hi-tech loads have the pellet energy for five good hits to reliably kill coyotes at long range. But can you get the pattern out there.



5 pellets within 12" ring

---------------------------------------
I would have to say five pellets in a six inch circle would be better.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/12 03:46 PM

I probably wasn't specific enough in the wording of that original post. When I said “solid hits” I was referring only to the vital tissue such as the heart/lung area which on a coyote is probably about 6” – 8” inches total. Pellets outside the vital area can not be counted on to quickly anchor a coyote for a humane kill and for sure recovery of the animal. Brain and upper neck spine shots would essentially need the same minimal number of pellets flying that direction into that point of aim/impact. I also feel now that the smaller the pellet the more of them you need into that vital tissue. So in the interest of clarity; based upon Number Four Buck five or six adequately sized pellets at minimum (depending upon the size of the pellet – T’s and BB’s could use a few more for good measure) striking the point of aim in the vital tissue or specifically targeted brain/upper neck area would be a good yardstick of minimal performance for reliable kills and quick recovery of the coyote. Or sumpin’ like that… blink
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/12 08:44 PM

Well I finially got out there and did some patterning. Conditions were real world. Sitting on a chair using shooting sticks with about 10 mph or so wind. Mostly blowing right to left if facing target.
3" #4 Fedral blue box buckshot 25 yards

Same load 40 yards

Winchester 3" Coyote loads. 1 3/8 B's 25 yards

Same load 40 yards


All were shot using a Carlsons Dead Coyote choke out of my Benelli Nova. Also tried Hevi Shot T's, but they didn't work very good. Pattern was tight, but POA was low and right. These were 3 1/2". Not worth posting pics.

Looking for some opinions here, I think I have a real world 40 yard shooter.(just barely) Obviously it could be better. I'm happy enough with the results considering I only tried one choke tube and 3 different loads.

Edit: after posting some of the hits are hard to make out in the black lines.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/29/12 08:55 PM

My freakin shoulder is killing me!
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 12:48 AM

Coyotes around here generally stand about 20" tall from the ground up to the top of their back. A 12" circle is way bigger than any coyote's vitals. Their chest is perhaps 6-8" tall from the bottom of their rips up to the top of their back, depending on size. Fur makes them look a lot bigger than they are!

Rynokron, your 40 yard pattern will probably kill them eventually, but expect runners 100%. Look for something a little tighter.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 01:27 AM

Here's a quick visual, scaled to approximate size, assuming both coyotes are about 20" tall to their backs, and the front coyote is closer than the back coyote... You can see that a 12" circle is HUGE on a coyote.

12" = Yellow
10" = Orange
5" = Red



Now, think again about how many pellets you need inside those cirlces in order to stop a coyote DRT.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 07:58 AM

Thanks! Using the rule of thumb that 5 hits in an 8" circle is minimum I just barely qualify at 40 yards. It's not ideal for shure. I should be able to get a little better results with more testing. Any suggestions for other choke tubes that work well? I'm all ears.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 11:12 AM

rynokron,

I would say that with the #4 BUCK load, you are good to 35 yards or so. What brand and model is your shotgun? We should learn what the nominal bore diameter is. For tightest center dense patterns, a .040-.050 of constriction will usually be best. I find it interesting that Hevi-shot fodder strikes low and right with your gun. Mine shoots the stuff high and left. I am hoping that I can zero my speed bead in such a way that I can get away with shooting either Hevi-shot or lead. If I can't do that, I guess that I will re-set the speed bead every time I switch loads.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
rynokron,

I would say that with the #4 BUCK load, you are good to 35 yards or so. What brand and model is your shotgun? We should learn what the nominal bore diameter is. For tightest center dense patterns, a .040-.050 of constriction will usually be best. I find it interesting that Hevi-shot fodder strikes low and right with your gun. Mine shoots the stuff high and left. I am hoping that I can zero my speed bead in such a way that I can get away with shooting either Hevi-shot or lead. If I can't do that, I guess that I will re-set the speed bead every time I switch loads.


It's a Benelli Nova. Not real farmiliar with shotguns so I don't know the bore diameter. Just getting into the shotgun thing, missed several fast in/ fast out coyotes with the rifle. Most of the spots I hunt a shotgun is a better choice. The Hevi Shot had a better pattern, but POA was off enough I would need a red dot sight to use it. Not out of the question, but would like to try some other choke tubes first. Looking for suggestions on what to try next...

Here's my Nova
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: rynokron
[quote=Rich Cronk]rynokron,

I would say that with the #4 BUCK load, you are good to 35 yards or so. What brand and model is your shotgun? We should learn what the nominal bore diameter is. For tightest center dense patterns, a .040-.050 of constriction will usually be best. I find it interesting that Hevi-shot fodder strikes low and right with your gun. Mine shoots the stuff high and left. I am hoping that I can zero my speed bead in such a way that I can get away with shooting either Hevi-shot or lead. If I can't do that, I guess that I will re-set the speed bead every time I switch loads.


It's a Benelli Nova. Not real farmiliar with shotguns so I don't know the bore diameter. Just getting into the shotgun thing, missed several fast in/ fast out coyotes with the rifle. Most of the spots I hunt a shotgun is a better choice. The Hevi Shot had a better pattern, but POA was off enough I would need a red dot sight to use it. Not out of the question, but would like to try some other choke tubes first. Looking for suggestions on what to try next...
----------------------------------------------
Nominal bore diameter of your Nova .729, which means that an extended choke tube of .680-.690 should do the trick. I adjusted by speed bead to center the Hevi-shot T,s today. Here are a couple of photos.

Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 08:23 PM

That looks pretty good to me! Thanks for the info, Rich.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 08:53 PM

I think your Nova has a .723" bore and uses the Benelli/Beretta Mobile Choke system. I would look for a choke of about .670" - .680" to handle lead No. Four Buck and Tungsten T's/BB's.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 11:24 PM

I have the older "Dead Coyote", not the newer "Coyote". I believe it's .670. I will call Carlsons tomorrow and confirm. Forgive my ignorance, but .670 is tighter than .680 right?
If that's the case am I pretty much at the best it's going to get? Not that that's a real problem. If I find a load it likes a little better and can get a little better results at 40 yards I think that's pretty decent.

My patterns might have been better from a rest. My shoulder was killing me after a few shots. Thought I hung in there pretty good. It's all black and blue and letting me know I need a limb saver! lol
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 04/30/12 11:45 PM

Originally Posted By: rynokron
I have the older "Dead Coyote", not the newer "Coyote". I believe it's .670. I will call Carlsons tomorrow and confirm. Forgive my ignorance, but .670 is tighter than .680 right?
If that's the case am I pretty much at the best it's going to get? Not that that's a real problem. If I find a load it likes a little better and can get a little better results at 40 yards I think that's pretty decent.

My patterns might have been better from a rest. My shoulder was killing me after a few shots. Thought I hung in there pretty good. It's all black and blue and letting me know I need a limb saver! lol

-----------------------------
I believe that GC is correct and your bore diameter is .723. I am thinking that you are correct regarding your choke/load producing better patterns than your photos show. I sit on a folding camp stool while patterning, and I rest the forearm on a pair of home made shooting sticks. I can believe that your shoulder is sore also. I went with a gas operated semi-Auto because I knew I wanted to shoot 3&1/2" BOOMERS. lol
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/01/12 10:22 AM

Originally Posted By: rynokron
I have the older "Dead Coyote", not the newer "Coyote". I believe it's .670. I will call Carlsons tomorrow and confirm. Forgive my ignorance, but .670 is tighter than .680 right?
If that's the case am I pretty much at the best it's going to get? Not that that's a real problem. If I find a load it likes a little better and can get a little better results at 40 yards I think that's pretty decent.

My patterns might have been better from a rest. My shoulder was killing me after a few shots. Thought I hung in there pretty good. It's all black and blue and letting me know I need a limb saver! lol


You are correct that you must be steady when patterning. It is pretty much like sighting in a rifle, the more support you have the better the groups and more precise the actual sight-in.

Another thing, don’t base performance on single shot patterns. It is surprising how on occasion one shell will shoot so much better or worse than the others in the pack. I would shoot at least three shots for an average and five is obviously better yet.

Regarding the choke, a swap of diameters might make a huge difference in your pattern. I’ve seen .005” blow a pattern completely up. Maybe a .680" could possibly be a sweet spot for your particular bore. Or a choke change might be in order as all the various makers have their own little manufacturing designs that may or may not suit your particular barrel and load. I’ve had excellent results from Kick’s, Pure Gold, and Indian Creek. I’ve had less than stellar performance from some other choke makers products. Not saying that some of these others aren’t well made and couldn’t be useful in somebody else’s gun, but that the three I named by brand specifically have always been consistent and reliable products for me.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/01/12 07:32 PM

Rich and GC,

Thanks for all the great info!

Talked to Carlsons on the phone today. They said my choke is a .665 and probably too tight after I explained my patterns. They are sending me two others to test and told me to keep the best one and send back the others. Good customer service and a nice guy. If I just can't get any of them to work I will try another brand. Kicks seem to be a popular choice.

On another note I stopped by the brand new Cabelas today and got some more shells to test with and a Limbsaver!
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/01/12 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: rynokron
Rich and GC,

Thanks for all the great info!

Talked to Carlsons on the phone today. They said my choke is a .665 and probably too tight after I explained my patterns. They are sending me two others to test and told me to keep the best one and send back the others. Good customer service and a nice guy. If I just can't get any of them to work I will try another brand. Kicks seem to be a popular choice.

On another note I stopped by the brand new Cabelas today and got some more shells to test with and a Limbsaver!

----------------------------------
I have seen the new Carlson tubes and they look good. They obviously haven't done their home work regarding the mating of nominal bore diameter with a proper choke constriction yet though. They seem to almost always give a guy a choke tube that is either to tight or not tight enough. Oh well, what the hay, they will learn in time. At least they have good customer service. I guess what I am saying is that if they send you a .670 and a .675, then one of them should throw a good pattern for you. grin
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/07/12 12:19 AM

And now for something completely different......

I ran the girlfriend through the "skunk drill" with my old Mossberg 183 .410 and she did well.

25 yards Remington 2.5" #6 shot fixed full choke:



This is my preferred skunk gitter. grin
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/07/12 09:35 AM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
And now for something completely different......

I ran the girlfriend through the "skunk drill" with my old Mossberg 183 .410 and she did well.

25 yards Remington 2.5" #6 shot fixed full choke:



This is my preferred skunk gitter. grin

-------------------------------------------------
Well she sure enough kilt that woodpecker dead. lol
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/07/12 10:43 AM

I had a buddy that I hunted some with as a kid that had a bolt action shotgun. All I remember is that it was a 20 gauge. I do remember that he would occasionally have feeding malfunctions. At the time I had a Winchester single shot 20 gauge and we used to haul home the squirrels and rabbits in the fall/winter months around our two farms. Vermin like skunks, coons and possums got shot on sight! They are nest robbers of the worst sort and can really put a hurting on wild turkey nest in the spring. Occasionally they would also pull an egg sucking mission on our hen house and usually paid the price for their thievery. I shot a lot of Remington high brass Express and Winchester Super-X 1 ounce loads of #6 shot back then.
Posted by: jcooper13

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/09/12 08:36 AM

thats a nice drawing of a skunk i might say...good shooting!
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/12 02:57 AM

Much better results today. Got the .675 Carlsons in my mailbox on Friday.

40 yards Fedral Premium copper plated #4 buckshot


40 yards Winchester HD Coyote loads. (B's)


The Hevi Shot worked much better from this choke too.
3 1/2" Hevi Shot T's 40 yards


So my Dead Coyote choke (.665) was too tight for the big stuff, but threw a mean pattern with turkey loads. My new turkey choke (.675) worked well with my coyote loads. crazy
Pretty happy with the results.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/12 02:52 PM

rynokron,

That hevi-shot pattern looks real good. I'm glad that you hung in there til you whipped the problem.
Posted by: tom223

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/12 03:24 PM

I have a Rem 11-87 12gauge SuperMag Turkey,23inch barrel and want to set it up for coyote hunting. I am undecided what choke tube to get,I have been looking a Carlson's new coyote choke tube and Kick's Howler choke tube. I plan on shooting 3 inch Hevi-shot T's. Any info you can provide would be very helpful. Thanks Tom
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/12 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: tom223
I have a Rem 11-87 12gauge SuperMag Turkey,23inch barrel and want to set it up for coyote hunting. I am undecided what choke tube to get,I have been looking a Carlson's new coyote choke tube and Kick's Howler choke tube. I plan on shooting 3 inch Hevi-shot T's. Any info you can provide would be very helpful. Thanks Tom


The answers are sewn all throughout this thread, you have to put some work in for a quality result and research is a part of that. Here is a quick cut-n-paste I posted from a couple pages back...

When asked my usual advice is to search in the .050" - .060" constriction range for a sweet spot for 3" .12 gauge lead No. Four Buck and tungsten T's or BB's. With some juggling of constrictions in that area and load checking usually a guy can find a sweet spot. I'm shooting a .670" from my tight Benelli bores which gives me... are you ready? Yep, exactly .055" of constriction.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/13/12 05:32 PM

Originally Posted By: rynokron
Much better results today. Got the .675 Carlsons in my mailbox on Friday.

40 yards Fedral Premium copper plated #4 buckshot


40 yards Winchester HD Coyote loads. (B's)


The Hevi Shot worked much better from this choke too.
3 1/2" Hevi Shot T's 40 yards


So my Dead Coyote choke (.665) was too tight for the big stuff, but threw a mean pattern with turkey loads. My new turkey choke (.675) worked well with my coyote loads. crazy
Pretty happy with the results.


Here is what I told you earlier...

I think your Nova has a .723" bore and uses the Benelli/Beretta Mobile Choke system. I would look for a choke of about .670" - .680" to handle lead No. Four Buck and Tungsten T's/BB's.

Pretty close, huh? smile Glad it's coming together for you.
Posted by: rynokron

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/14/12 12:52 PM

^^^ Yup. You and Rich were spot on with your advice. Saved me a ton of trial and error. Thanks again.
Posted by: BOOMMM

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/08/12 05:25 PM

I have a German combination gun and it has 3" chambers and proofed for steel. It has a fixed half choke which is basically modified. I have measured the muzzle and I get measurements of .700-.712 I know that is a wide variance but the best I can do with what I have. I don't want to get screw in chokes and I am not sure I can because that barrel is very thin. I am going to try
1. Remington HD BB 3"
2. Winchester lead BB 3"
3. Winchester #4 Buck 3"
4. Hornady #4 Buck 23/4"
5. Federal BB+ HVHD 3"
6. Federal Coyote Heavyweight Load BB 3".
I will use the usual patterning protocols discussed on this thread to test the various loads, but would appreciate any ideas since I can only change the load not the choke. Any other loads I should try that I have not listed? I am hoping that the Federal Coyote Heavyweight load meets the criteria because I could also then use it for Turkey. Is there a discussion like this anywhere geared toward Turkey loads and patterns?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/08/12 08:48 PM

You can use BB size shot legally for turkey in your state? Many states prohibit large shot size during turkey seasons for safety reasons. I would expect that Federal load to do quite well from your fixed choke since it uses the Flite Control wad.
Posted by: BOOMMM

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/08/12 11:29 PM

I have reviewed the Ohio regs over and over and I can't find any restrictions on shot size. 10gauge or smaller and it must use shot. That is all I can find. I likewise think the Federal loading with the flight control wad will most likely give best results. The patterning board will tell the truth. I hope to go out this weekend.
Posted by: BOOMMM

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/10/12 05:28 PM

GC,
I have read that you shoot patterns at 12yards to check poi, if it is off do you sight in with bird shot at that distance or longer range? I have adjustable sights on my gun but today I am hitting about a foot low. The Federal Heavy Weight Coyote load looks promising but to soon to tell. I need to get this thing hitting where I aim first. Thanks.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/10/12 11:47 PM

Definitely sight in with some inexpensive low recoil field loads at the shorter range and it will get you close enough to then move out to 40 yards without wasting those considerably more costly shells. It is just like starting at 25 yards to get on paper before moving out to 100 yards with a centerfire rifle after mounting a new scope or changing something that alters your sight-in.
Posted by: BOOMMM

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/19/12 09:20 AM

I have been patterning my modified fixed choke combo gun and so far the Federal Heavyweight BB Coyote Load with Flight Control wad is the most consistent. At 40 yards paper plate is centered in the pattern with 26 pellets on the plate. At 50 yards I still have 15 pellets on the paper plate.
The Hornady # 4 buck load with the the same wad is not bad but they need to make it in a 3" version so that there are more pellets in it.
I have two left over boxes of the Remington Wingmaster HD BB load if any one is interested in buying them let me know.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/19/12 10:22 AM

Originally Posted By: BOOMMM
I have been patterning my modified fixed choke combo gun and so far the Federal Heavyweight BB Coyote Load with Flight Control wad is the most consistent.
The Hornady # 4 buck load with the the same wad is not bad but they need to make it in a 3" version so that there are more pellets in it.


That Federal load shines when it's not choked down. Too bad it's so darn expensive.

I couldn't get the Hornady load to pattern near as well either. I couldn't legally use it here in OK anyways due to shot size restrictions.
Posted by: BOOMMM

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/19/12 06:56 PM

Now that I am done patterning I hope I go broke killing coyotes with it!
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/20/12 04:53 PM

I had a new barrel arrive today.

It's a parkerized 18.5 inch rifle sighted smoothbore barrel with a fixed Mod choke. It came with tritium night sights.

I took a 50 yard poke with the Hornady #4 buck to see what it looked like.

Nothing impressive. I hope the Federal Coyote patterns well or else I may be slinging low recoil slugs this year.

Posted by: Grizzly Johnson

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/20/12 05:07 PM

Just wondering if any of you guys are polishing your shotgun barrels to improve your patterns?
Posted by: Sgtshultzy266

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/20/12 05:15 PM

You ever think of possibly having that barrel threaded for choke tubes? Ive been giving it some thought with my 18.5 barrel. I imagine there should be enough meat on the barrel to do it and my local dealer said he could do it for $45.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/20/12 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Sgtshultzy266
You ever think of possibly having that barrel threaded for choke tubes? Ive been giving it some thought with my 18.5 barrel. I imagine there should be enough meat on the barrel to do it and my local dealer said he could do it for $45.


I doubt I'll mess with it.

The Federal Vital Shock Coyote load (with the Flight Control wad) did quite well through a Mod RemChoke with the old barrel.

I'm out of ammo now, but i'll post some patterning with it soon.

Here's my 52 yard pattern from before:



IIRC the coffee can lid was 8"? The POI was off a little high from POA. That's what made me decide to switch up to a rifle sighted barrel. Plus I wanted a set of tritium night sights for two legged varmints.... thumbup1

ETA: I just measured a coffee can lid- They are 6" . tongue_smilie
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/20/12 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Grizzly Johnson
Just wondering if any of you guys are polishing your shotgun barrels to improve your patterns?


GJ
This barrel was fresh, but after I cleaned it I did run some 0000 steel wool on a brush with the drill to smooth things up.
I paid particular attention to the chamber, to make extraction as smooth as possible.....
Posted by: Grizzly Johnson

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/21/12 09:02 AM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: Grizzly Johnson
Just wondering if any of you guys are polishing your shotgun barrels to improve your patterns?


GJ
This barrel was fresh, but after I cleaned it I did run some 0000 steel wool on a brush with the drill to smooth things up.
I paid particular attention to the chamber, to make extraction as smooth as possible.....


Before I got into turkey hunting, I never knew of such a thing. However after being introduced to turkeys and visiting turkey forums to learn as much as possible about turkey hunting (much like being here and with predators), I now polish all my turkey gun barrels... might as well try it on my predator shotty too! I have seen some brand new barrels with tooling marks on the inside..... a good polishing helped them alot. "T" shot is the largest shot allowed in Tennessee for predators besides a slug.

How you liking those new sights? I have them on my carry gun and really like them at night or in the dark.
Posted by: OldTurtle

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/21/12 12:54 PM

There are a couple of Smiths that specialize in smoothing and lengthening the forcing cones...They state that it produces better patterns...

I always polish mine after a shooting session by wrapping a large tight patch that has been impregnated with JB polish around a wire brush and chucked into a cordless drill and then follow it with a good dose of Rem Oil and then dry patches...

Looks like a mirror when you put a light down the barrel and my patterns stay consistent out of an 18.5" barrel with a modified choke...

Posted by: Grizzly Johnson

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/21/12 01:33 PM

Originally Posted By: OldTurtle
There are a couple of Smiths that specialize in smoothing and lengthening the forcing cones...They state that it produces better patterns...

I always polish mine after a shooting session by wrapping a large tight patch that has been impregnated with JB polish around a wire brush and chucked into a cordless drill and then follow it with a good dose of Rem Oil and then dry patches...

Looks like a mirror when you put a light down the barrel and my patterns stay consistent out of an 18.5" barrel with a modified choke...



A trimmed piece of GREEN scotch-brite pad does great too. Just cut it to where it wraps around a 20ga wire cleaning brush (for use in 12ga barrel, use a 12ga brush for polishing a 10ga barrel, and so on) and the edges of the pad just touch. You take the JB paste and rub down into the pad. Insert pad/brush into the chamber end of the barrel, lubricate with Kroil or quality gun oil, chuck the long cleaning rod into a low-med speed drill and make long sweeping strokes up and down the barrel. Just be sure not to run the pad plum out the far end of the barrel. Try not to polish much in the chamber area either. Keep squirting oil in the barrel every so often..... you want a slurry dripping out the end of the barrel while polishing, never let pad run dry as heat will build up inside the barrel and dry out JB paste.

I usually make 25-30 passes (1 pass is down and back) per pad, change pads and go again until I make 100-150 passes depending on the condition of barrel at starting point.

Then just pull a clean patch through until all the residue is out. Run one more with a light coat of oil through before storing.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/24/12 01:08 PM

It is interesting how barrels react to a deep cleaning. Most will respond really well to it. Some barrels like it much less so. One of my Benelli M1's shoots the absolute best patterns for the first dozen shots from a squeaky clean barrel. The other M1 patterns begin to really get consistent after about a dozen shots have been fired. That first barrel that likes to be squeaky clean begins to quickly lose it's consistent patterns after 12 - 15 shots. The second one stays very consistent with a dirty bore and really isn't losing much for long enough that it doesn't seem to matter as I'll usually clean it at some point before the bore gets fouled enough to notice inconsistent or bad results. Just as some rifle barrels like to be clean or will/can shoot dirty for long periods the same for shotguns if a guy takes the time to notice.
Posted by: frozenbutt

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 06/29/12 05:43 PM

My 870 with my turkey choke will barely put shot on paper the first 2 rounds with a clean barrel. Then she pulls together and paterns real nice. I always fire 2-4 rounds of low base cheapies through it after a cleaning before going out hunting.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/04/12 12:54 PM

I ordered a custom Kick's .680" choke for my Remington 870 a while back. Finally got around to testing it. My conclusion is that my shotgun is just ok, it's not going to ever pattern super tight after testing a bunch of chokes and a bunch of loads.

Here are the results with Dead Coyote T-shot. First at 40 yards:







50 yards was not as impressive:


Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/04/12 01:29 PM

Also tried Federal #4 Buckshot, first copper plated, then lead. It shot a little wide to the right.





I held over a litte too far to the left to correct the POI.


Lead #4 Buckshot shot the same.


I held over a little too far kentucky windage.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/04/12 01:50 PM

Federal 3" copper plated BBs apparently used to be the standard fox round back in the day, so I tried some of those too. I found that the pattern is devistating out to 35 yards, but it really spreads past that. This Kick's .680" shoots it the best of all the chokes I've tried so far from .665" to .700".



Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/04/12 01:57 PM

Also tried some 00 buckshot, cheap bulk pack 3"Winchester lead.



Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/04/12 02:03 PM

Thanks for posting those pictures. You did a really good job with your patterning and posting those illustrated pictures. Amazing what an extra 5 or 10 yards can do to a pattern, isn't it? Your pictures reveal how finicky shotguns, chokes and various loads can be and how important it is to pattern them to ensure that your pattern is at point of aim and how well it performs at any given range. And how difficult it is to find that often quoted 70+ yard shotgun, choke and load combination. It is also amazing how much difference .010" in a choke can make on a pattern or simply a switch of brand of shell and/or shot size. Honest testing results are interesting stuff... smile
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/04/12 02:53 PM

Thanks. I had some other loads that I did not test. They're going extinct, why get my hopes up...

Question: Why are all the best loads either no longer in production or priced out of this universe? DC T shot is up to $45/box around here...
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/04/12 04:07 PM

DC T is $50 at my local bass pro
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/05/12 12:50 PM

The first three pattern pictures look pretty good to me.

Great pictures and write up on your patterns.

Just a little over a month ago I ordered Hevi-Shot 3" DC T shot from Sportsman's Warehouse for $30.00 per box, I also got some Hevi-Shot 3" B 1-1/2 oz Goose loads for $27.00 per box.
http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sport...72110/cat110193

Some places still have the Hevi-Shot loads for the old prices. We just thought the old prices were high, LOL. The new prices make the old prices look like a great deal.

Right now Cabela's has Winchester Hi-Density 3" 1-3/8 oz B loads on a close out special for $19.98 per box of 10 shells.


If I could still use lead shot on coyotes I would be using the Federal Premium copper coated lead BB loads. The copper coated lead BBs work great at 40 yards and less on the small coyotes I hunt. In your pictures of the Federal lead BB load patterns you can see that with the extra width of the pattern and the higher pellet count, these lead BB loads make it easier to hit running coyotes at less than 40 yards.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/05/12 05:09 PM

3" BBs will flatten stuff out to 30 yards.

Rem 870 12g
Kick's .680"
3" Fed BB copper
30 yards
Posted by: BubbaChicken

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/05/12 05:54 PM

I have a Rem 870 that I have yet to shoot much. I think the first shots fired through it were probably with cawilson here on these boards! We went to an informal range he set up and I tried a shot or two of his loads (I think they were turkey loads, but it was a couple months ago, I am not sure). I have no idea how well it will actually perform at ranges of 50 yards with various loads because we just had a few of those turkey (?) loads handy. I have a shotshell press or two, I also have the powder, wads, and some shells, I could make some (as I also have the shot, but I have to make sure the size is acceptable, I think it might be a hair too big to be legal - .310 diameter is probably a form of buckshot...) but I do not want to get stupid. One problem I have is that I am trying to get ammo that is not horribly expensive, but seem to be seeing a lot of 40-50 dollar per 20 boxes of shotgun shells! Around here waterfowl is huge, so there is little to no lead shot available, and the coyote ammo thus labelled and bismuth shot are very costly... I may have to stick with the AR, my .45, and slugs/bow!

The question I have is that I noticed that the patterns on your patternboard were not all centered on the target. Some were pretty tight patterns but would have been more effective on the countryside than the critter. You also mentioned an elevation issue. Is it accurate to state that I will likely have elevation issues with the shotgun when using it for coyotes with the bead sight that it currently wears? Also, it currently wears a screw-in choke (I think Improve Cylinder, but it might be a Modified) and my old shotgun had a PolyChoke on it (which I loved). Are IC or Mod chokes better for shooting to say 40 yards with the shotgun for coyotes using shot that is suitable for the restrictions of shot size we have in Tennessee? Am I better with another choke size, or is there a way to know without wasting a box of ammo what size choke will likely be best? The ammo waste would cost more than each of the additional choke tubes that I likely would not otherwise use!
Posted by: BubbaChicken

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/05/12 05:56 PM

Oh, BTW, mine is also a 12 ga, and will fire 3" shells... It is only about a year old, and has been fired...three times? maybe 4??? I am sure it would benefit from an internal polish job, I have seen more finished surfaces on the fuzzy side of suede than the metal of this shotgun...
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/12/12 03:01 PM

I may have stumbled upon a game changer for some of you who hunt where buckshot is legal.

Some of you may have heard about Federal's new 15 pellet #1 buckshot load that is low recoil and uses a flight control wad.
The stock number is LE1321B

These were all shot at 45 yards through a fixed modified 18" rifle sighted barrel on my 870.

I need more paper to test some more and dial in the sights.

This first group pattern was about the size of a cantalope:



The second round opened up some. I also made a sight adjustment:




Third closed back up. I may have jerked the trigger some also:




The best part is that it's low recoil. It was like shooting heavy dove loads.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/12/12 04:55 PM

More.

These next two opened up a little. There were two slight sight adjustments here:





These last two closed up. I believe I was flinching a little bit.





Here's some scale for that 6th shot:

Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/13/12 02:34 PM

I never understood why #1 Buck wasn't more popular with law enforcement agencies. Probably because cops have to be accountable for every single pellet and those wide strays that go whistling down the street to hit unintended targets is the concern. But the size of the shot is about right and it holds more pellets so it would seem a natural. At one time the FBI actually used #4 Buck and some other agencies followed their lead. My first duty shotgun, a cylinder bore 18" 870P was stoked with #4 Buck. I remember that there grew some dissatisfaction with knocking people down and keeping them down with the #4 Buck and everybody switched back to 00 Buck. Which makes #1 Buck a good compromise – it would seem anyway.
Posted by: Shotgunner6264

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/28/12 09:40 PM

Try a Hunter Speacialties Undertake choke. Ive rolled up turkey at 50 and 75 yards with this choke. I shoot a Mossberg model 500. number 4 whinchester loads.
Ive also dropped a nice female bobcat at 45 with a 2 3/4 winchester model 1400.
Its a good inexpensive choke.
Posted by: Shotgunner6264

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/28/12 09:47 PM

Try a hunter speacialties undertaker choke.
Ive rolled up turkey at 55 and 75 yards with this choke. Shooting a mossberg model 500 3 inch with number 4 winchester loads.
ive also droppped a nice female bobcat with a model 1400 winchester automatic with this choke shooting 2 3/4 inch number 4 winchester super x loads.
it is a great inexpensive choke!
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/31/12 01:26 PM

Sometimes an old ornery Grandpa just feels like posting up an old photo. Keeps us awake I guess. Shotgun is a Beretta Extrema2, and choke tube is a .680 from the boys at Kicks.
Posted by: OldTurtle

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/31/12 01:37 PM

Rich, That's impressive... thumbup
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/31/12 03:08 PM

That's a heckuva pattern RC.


I'll share this here ...
As a special request on another forum, here's that Flight Control #1 buck at 30 yards:

Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/31/12 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
That's a heckuva pattern RC.


I'll share this here ...
As a special request on another forum, here's that Flight Control #1 buck at 30 yards:


---------------------------------
That pattern should do the trick. Go get em Crazy! lol
Posted by: beagler

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/01/12 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
Sometimes an old ornery Grandpa just feels like posting up an old photo. Keeps us awake I guess. Shotgun is a Beretta Extrema2, and choke tube is a .680 from the boys at Kicks.

That is probably the best #4 buck pattern at 40yds I've ever seen! My dad shoots an Xtrema II, I'll have to let him know.
Posted by: GLA.OR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/02/12 01:33 AM

Well GC I got that Benelli today. I went with the super nova as I am a wuss and don't like recoil. The POI seems to be the same as POA. I did the 13 yard test you suggested and things looked good so I tried some 30 and 55 yard patterns. The dead coyote Ts looked pretty good out to 55 but the Reminton #4 buck will have to be a 45 and under load. I was using a dead coyote choke. I am not sure what the constiction is on that one but I am going to call carlsons tommorow and find out. I might check into the Kicks chokes to see what hey have for the super Nova. I was impressed with the way it handled recoil. The 3 inch 4 and 00 buck were not bad at all. The 3 inch DC was a little more but not too bad. I have more work to do but I was anxious to get out to try it. If I remember next time I will take a camera.
Posted by: 2muchgun

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/02/12 01:36 AM



Looks like a 50 yd group from the latest T/C centerfire......
Posted by: 870 Shell Shucker

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/02/12 02:32 AM

Rich Cronk,

That's an awesome pattern, that I'm not sure can be topped at 40 Yards with #4 Buck. I have one close to that, using a 3" shell and an Indian Creek .675 choke in an 870, but you've got a few more pellets both in the shell, and on the plate.

Congratulations. I believe I'd just hunt with that combo if I were you.
Posted by: Bernie P.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/02/12 09:20 AM

RC that one's got me rethinking my view on them shoulder buster shells.Excellent pattern!
Posted by: GLA.OR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/02/12 01:19 PM

Well I checked my dead coyote choke tube and its .665. I am going to try something a little bigger to see if I get a better patten with lead at 50 yds. I went to the Kicks web page and saw they have a predator tube now called the Howler. There is one for lead and one for HD. I am not sure what teh difference is but I have a call into them asking for someone to talk to about it.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/03/12 12:01 AM

Originally Posted By: GLA.OR
Well GC I got that Benelli today. I went with the super nova as I am a wuss and don't like recoil. The POI seems to be the same as POA. I did the 13 yard test you suggested and things looked good so I tried some 30 and 55 yard patterns. The dead coyote Ts looked pretty good out to 55 but the Reminton #4 buck will have to be a 45 and under load. I was using a dead coyote choke. I am not sure what the constiction is on that one but I am going to call carlsons tommorow and find out. I might check into the Kicks chokes to see what hey have for the super Nova. I was impressed with the way it handled recoil. The 3 inch 4 and 00 buck were not bad at all. The 3 inch DC was a little more but not too bad. I have more work to do but I was anxious to get out to try it. If I remember next time I will take a camera.


You won't feel a thing when shooting at a coyote! smile
Posted by: Mark_in_WI

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/08/12 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Grizzly Johnson
A trimmed piece of GREEN scotch-brite pad does great too. Just cut it to where it wraps around a 20ga wire cleaning brush (for use in 12ga barrel, use a 12ga brush for polishing a 10ga barrel, and so on) and the edges of the pad just touch. You take the JB paste and rub down into the pad. Insert pad/brush into the chamber end of the barrel, lubricate with Kroil or quality gun oil, chuck the long cleaning rod into a low-med speed drill and make long sweeping strokes up and down the barrel. Just be sure not to run the pad plum out the far end of the barrel. Try not to polish much in the chamber area either. Keep squirting oil in the barrel every so often..... you want a slurry dripping out the end of the barrel while polishing, never let pad run dry as heat will build up inside the barrel and dry out JB paste.

I usually make 25-30 passes (1 pass is down and back) per pad, change pads and go again until I make 100-150 passes depending on the condition of barrel at starting point.

Then just pull a clean patch through until all the residue is out. Run one more with a light coat of oil through before storing.



I have never tried this!! I was wondering is this a "deep cleaning?" or are you removing some of the barrel? I was thinking about having my forceing cone worked on to help with patterns and this should help too?? I use my 870 for most of my hunting and prob need to give it a good deep cleaning. I would think it should help the pattern with all loads or am I wrong about that? I assume there are some other ways to do this.....ideas????

Thanks for the help
Mark
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/08/12 10:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_in_WI
Originally Posted By: Grizzly Johnson
A trimmed piece of GREEN scotch-brite pad does great too. Just cut it to where it wraps around a 20ga wire cleaning brush (for use in 12ga barrel, use a 12ga brush for polishing a 10ga barrel, and so on) and the edges of the pad just touch. You take the JB paste and rub down into the pad. Insert pad/brush into the chamber end of the barrel, lubricate with Kroil or quality gun oil, chuck the long cleaning rod into a low-med speed drill and make long sweeping strokes up and down the barrel. Just be sure not to run the pad plum out the far end of the barrel. Try not to polish much in the chamber area either. Keep squirting oil in the barrel every so often..... you want a slurry dripping out the end of the barrel while polishing, never let pad run dry as heat will build up inside the barrel and dry out JB paste.

I usually make 25-30 passes (1 pass is down and back) per pad, change pads and go again until I make 100-150 passes depending on the condition of barrel at starting point.

Then just pull a clean patch through until all the residue is out. Run one more with a light coat of oil through before storing.



I have never tried this!! I was wondering is this a "deep cleaning?" or are you removing some of the barrel? I was thinking about having my forceing cone worked on to help with patterns and this should help too?? I use my 870 for most of my hunting and prob need to give it a good deep cleaning. I would think it should help the pattern with all loads or am I wrong about that? I assume there are some other ways to do this.....ideas????

Thanks for the help
Mark


This is a deep cleaning - you should NOT be removing barrel material in this process. Regarding how it affects patterns here is a cut-n-paste post I made from one page back...

It is interesting how barrels react to a deep cleaning. Most will respond really well to it. Some barrels like it much less so. One of my Benelli M1's shoots the absolute best patterns for the first dozen shots from a squeaky clean barrel. The other M1 patterns begin to really get consistent after about a dozen shots have been fired. That first barrel that likes to be squeaky clean begins to quickly lose it's consistent patterns after 12 - 15 shots. The second one stays very consistent with a dirty bore and really isn't losing much for long enough that it doesn't seem to matter as I'll usually clean it at some point before the bore gets fouled enough to notice inconsistent or bad results. Just as some rifle barrels like to be clean or will/can shoot dirty for long periods the same for shotguns if a guy takes the time to notice.
Posted by: Mark_in_WI

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/08/12 11:17 PM

GC I saw your post and thats what made me want to make sure it was only a cleaning and that I should not be removeing any barrel material. I have always just used acopper or nylon brissel brush followed by a mop and oil for cleaning. I guess I was wondering if I should/could expect better patterns as a whole after a deep cleanig. I was also wondering how different people do this or if the greeen scotch pad with some polish/oil is all that is needed. How do you do yours?? This is all new info to me so I hope to get some ideas.
Thanks again
Mark
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/09/12 03:12 PM

The green scotch brite pad works fine with a slurry of Kroil and JB compound. Some guys use 0000 steel wool with no issues. The key is to keep the pad/wool wet and go slowly so as to not build up or cause heat. Since I now use Benelli and Beretta guns with chromed bores I no longer use this method. Back in the day I did experiment with this on several Remington and Browning bores and generally saw some improvement. As I said, the results were variable and seemed dependent upon the individual gun and choke. BTW, don't forget the choke - it must be cleaned also.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/09/12 06:44 PM

I keep hearing "green" scotch brite pads, but is the box marked "heavy duty"? That is all I saw at the store. Is this the correct pad?

There is also more than one type of "JB paste". Non-embedding and bore bright. Which is the necessary compound?

Thanks
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/09/12 09:28 PM

I don't have any of the scotch brite pads on hand right now and couldn't tell you what the box says. Maybe someone else has some around and can help with that.

The JB I have always used is the non-embedding bore compound.
Posted by: EasternPredHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/10/12 12:04 PM

Thanks. I asked twice on my "disappointed with my super mag" thread and nobody said anything.
Posted by: Mark_in_WI

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/12/12 06:40 PM

Thanks for the info. One more question about the polish, is JB the only/best thing or would something like a Flitz or any metal polish??
Thanks again
Mark
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/13/12 10:01 AM

I dunno Mark, JB is the only thing I personally ever used.
Posted by: Mark_in_WI

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/13/12 11:25 AM

Ok. Thanks again!!
Posted by: sixohgto

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/30/12 03:14 PM

New to the forum here, new to predator hunting, have tried a few times with a rifle but have yet to have success. Recently bought an 870 express tactical.

Gun
18.5" 870 express tactical
Kicks Howler L choke
(supposed to be a #1b or#4b choke)

Ammo
Rem 3" #4b
Fed 3" #4b
Fed Prem 3" #4b

Here are some pattern tests. Targets are 18" x 14" and paper is close to 3'x3'

20yds




30yds

Rem #4b


Fed #4b


Fed Prem #4b (poa a little off)


40yds

Rem #4b - 31 hits on 3'x3' (best pattern on 14" x 18"@ 40yds)


Fed #4b - 34 hits on 3'x3'


Fed Prem #4b - 31 hits on 3'x3'


Just for reference this is what I measure my choke at, not sure if this is correct way to do it but its what I had.



Never hunted with a scatter gun before, I'm a rifle guy but I think I've got a 30yd gun, 40yds is pretty pathetic compared to some in this thread.

So now where to go? It looks like Dirty Dog has the same gun as I in this thread and the Dead Coyote choke wasn't much better than the Kicks Holwer H and my Holwer Lead wasn't much better than his posts. Might have to give kicks a call.

Any truth in a short barrel length affecting the shot from the pressure at the muzzle? Just pondering here.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/30/12 04:14 PM

I sure wouldn't stretch it past 30 yards. You only have about .045" constriction from your bore, I would get a bit tighter choke until I had about .055" - .060" of constriction. A choke of about .675" - .670" should probably get you in the ball park.
Posted by: GLA.OR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/12 01:36 AM

It sure doesnt look like you are getting the patterns they claim you will. If I am not mistaken they talk about 20 to 25 inch patterns at 30 or was it 40. I was wondering how they would work. I have had much better luck with a dead coyote choke.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/12 11:31 AM

Sixohgto, I have an 870 Tactical too, and the .665 DC choke shoots almost the same as the .680 Kick's. The .680 is only slightly better, if any with 4B and Tshot. Perhaps the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle around .675?
Posted by: leebrown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/07/12 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
That's a heckuva pattern RC.


I'll share this here ...
As a special request on another forum, here's that Flight Control #1 buck at 30 yards:



What gun and choke was that shot with?
Posted by: GLA.OR

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/09/12 11:48 PM

Has anybody else tried the Kicks L or H chokes in their shotguns. I had thought about trying an L choke for my super nova but after seeing the patterns that sixohgto got I'm not too impressed. I have a few boxes of dead coyote left that I get good patterns out of with the DC choke and at least as good with 4 buck as what I saw there so I will stay with that. I guess there never will be a choke tube that works as well as advertised. I sure dont get 70 yard patterns that I would try on a coyote with the DC choke, even with the DC T loads.
Posted by: Jack Roberts

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/10/12 12:12 AM

Usually, people who get good 70 yard patterns don't use a range finder.

Jack
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/10/12 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Jack Roberts
Usually, people who get good 70 yard patterns don't use a range finder.

Jack


LOL... how true and well said Jack. thumbup1
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/10/12 11:41 AM

Originally Posted By: leebrown
Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
That's a heckuva pattern RC.


I'll share this here ...
As a special request on another forum, here's that Flight Control #1 buck at 30 yards:



What gun and choke was that shot with?


That's through my 18.5" Remington 870 with a fixed mod choke.
The load is Federal LE1321B.
Posted by: leebrown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/10/12 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: leebrown
Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
That's a heckuva pattern RC.


I'll share this here ...
As a special request on another forum, here's that Flight Control #1 buck at 30 yards:



What gun and choke was that shot with?


That's through my 18.5" Remington 870 with a fixed mod choke.
The load is Federal LE1321B.


Where can I buy just a few boxes to test? I searched and can't find it available. I mainly deer hunt with buckshot and this stuff looks impressive.



Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/11/12 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: leebrown
Where can I buy just a few boxes to test? I searched and can't find it available. I mainly deer hunt with buckshot and this stuff looks impressive.


In stock here.
thumbup1

This stuff is wicked.
I flattened a yote @ 60 yards with it the other night in my yard.

But keep in mind it's a low recoil load. It may not have the penetration needed at distances for deer.
Posted by: cbaxp

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/12 10:27 PM

Has anyone done any experimenting with shell and choke combinations with a Winchester SX3? I looked through many of the 40+ pages in this thread and didn't see any tests with the SX3. My SX3 has the 28" barrel.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/18/12 12:04 AM

The general rule should apply, about .050" - .065" of constriction from your particular bore size probably will give you a good starting place. Your bore is .742" so a choke of about somewhere from .680" - .695" generally should give you a starting framework to fine tune from.
Posted by: my7pointmonster

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/20/12 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: leebrown
Where can I buy just a few boxes to test? I searched and can't find it available. I mainly deer hunt with buckshot and this stuff looks impressive.


In stock here.
thumbup1

This stuff is wicked.
I flattened a yote @ 60 yards with it the other night in my yard.

But keep in mind it's a low recoil load. It may not have the penetration needed at distances for deer.


at the risk of sounding like an idiot, How many do you get for the 2.99 price? is that per round or is that for a box of 5?

Ryan
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/20/12 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: my7pointmonster
Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: leebrown
Where can I buy just a few boxes to test? I searched and can't find it available. I mainly deer hunt with buckshot and this stuff looks impressive.


In stock here.
thumbup1

This stuff is wicked.
I flattened a yote @ 60 yards with it the other night in my yard.

But keep in mind it's a low recoil load. It may not have the penetration needed at distances for deer.


at the risk of sounding like an idiot, How many do you get for the 2.99 price? is that per round or is that for a box of 5?

Ryan


That's a box of 5 Ryan.
Posted by: my7pointmonster

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/22/12 06:22 PM

Wow, those are some seriously good prices then... I may get a box just for fact they're only 2.99.... heh. if I hadn't asked I'd have never known.

Ryan.

Edit: Alright now the price makes sense, I didn't think to look if it was a 3.5" mag or not I just happened to catch it before I checked out luckily

Ryan.
Posted by: leebrown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/24/12 09:43 PM

Oh yeah that Federal #1 buck flight control 2.75" is tight alright and recoil that is very easy on the shoulder too.

This is out of my Stoeger M2000 24" barrel, cylinder choke @ 30 yds.



I'm liking it in my Mossberg 500 20" barrel, improved cylinder choke @ 30 yds.



I don't have a pic but I have some groups not so tight and not very even but in those my wad hits the target too. What would be the cause of that?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/24/12 09:49 PM

Federal uses the Flite Control wad which is designed to stay with the shot far down range. I've had that wad bounce off the 40 yard target backer.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/25/12 06:07 AM

Originally Posted By: GC
Federal uses the Flite Control wad which is designed to stay with the shot far down range. I've had that wad bounce off the 40 yard target backer.


I pulled the Flite Control wad out of this one's neck:



It was under 20 yds with the heavyweight coyote load IIRC....
Posted by: Bernie P.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/25/12 09:50 AM

Looks good but I think I read something here about Feds FC wad not playing well with ported barrels.If so they won't pattern well in my 835.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/25/12 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Bernie P.
Looks good but I think I read something here about Feds FC wad not playing well with ported barrels.If so they won't pattern well in my 835.

I thought it was the ported "wad stripping" chokes that people have poor results with FC wads....

I haven't tried it in either ported barrels or through ported chokes.

Try that LE1321B and post pics.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/25/12 08:28 PM

Crazy... LOL, I don't doubt it for a minute. As I said, that wad has bounced off the 40 yard target backer really whacking it hard.

Correct as far as I know, it's the wad stripping chokes that play hob with the Flite Control wad. Several companies have developed special extended chokes specifically for the Flite Control wad that cater to the design of the wad to shuffle along with the shot column. I might buy one from Kick's and Pure Gold and see how that Federal Heavyweight Coyote BB load does from my Benelli's. Especially since Remington discontinued the HD-BB load.
Posted by: mac805

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/21/12 09:50 AM

I have done some testing with my 12 ga. Rem 870 Express Supermag with Federal and Remington 4 Buck loads. I think I have found a pretty good combo with Rem Express 3" 4 Buck, but my patterns are 6-8" high with all load and choke combos I tested.

I have a lot of experience wingshooting flushing birds, so pointing a shotgun at moving targets comes fairly naturally to me. This is my first trial with "aiming" a shotgun at a stationary target. I was shooting from a sitting position using sticks as a front rest. Recoil on the shoulder was no problem, but my cheek took some beating shooting this way.

Can anyone offer advice to lowering the pattern? I have some rifle style clamp on turkey sights, but I would much prefer to use the standard bead on a shotgun. Would installing a taller front bead help lower point of impact? What about changing out the stock?

Results below are 40 yards (confirmed by range finder) with Carlson's Coyote choke and the circle on the page is 9" for reference:

First two I aimed with the orange dot floating just on top of the bead


I pulled this one left a bit, but POA was same as first.


This one I aimed about 8" low to compensate


Tool in question.

Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/23/12 09:35 AM

A taller front bead would lower your point of impact. Your pattern looks a little weak to me though. Is that choke tube marked to show the I.D. ? A .675 or .680 should be close.
Posted by: mac805

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/24/12 09:19 AM

Rich, What do you consider to be an acceptable pattern for #4 buck? With a taller bead and a slight change in my sight picture, I was able to bring the pattern down right where I want it.

Measured with my calipers the Carlson's choke is 0.665". I have a factory Remington extended super full which measures 0.675" and the factory flush full choke is 0.690". After multiple shots with each, the Carlson's was the most consistent and tightest pattern.

With eight shots for this load/choke combo I am averaging right at 10 pellets in a 9" circle at an honest 40 yards (first 4 shots adjusted for high POI).



Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/24/12 10:17 AM

Originally Posted By: mac805
Rich, What do you consider to be an acceptable pattern for #4 buck? With a taller bead and a slight change in my sight picture, I was able to bring the pattern down right where I want it.

Measured with my calipers the Carlson's choke is 0.665". I have a factory Remington extended super full which measures 0.675" and the factory flush full choke is 0.690". After multiple shots with each, the Carlson's was the most consistent and tightest pattern.

With eight shots for this load/choke combo I am averaging right at 10 pellets in a 9" circle at an honest 40 yards (first 4 shots adjusted for high POI).




-----------------------
It took me awhile to find the right choke/load combo to achieve this pattern, so don't despair.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/cronkcalls/DSCF12921.jpg
Your choke tube may be too tight. .660 works good with BB's though.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/24/12 10:36 AM

I bought a bunch of Federal Heavyweight 3" 1-1/4 oz of #2 shells from Rodger's Sporting Goods when they had them on sale.

I didn't realize that the Federal Heavyweight shot was so much heavier than Hevi-Shot and Remington Wingmaster HD shot.

Hevi-Shot and Rem HD shot is 12g/cc and the Federal Heavyweight shot is 15g/cc. On the Federal Heavyweight box it says that the Heavyweight shot is 35% denser than lead.

Yesterday I shot a catalog at 40 yards with a Federal Premium 1-7/8 oz copper coated lead BB load and a Federal Heavyweight #2 load.

The copper coated BBs penetrated to pages 105, 109, 125, 135 & 137.

The Federal Heavyweight #2s penetrated into the same catalog to pages 282, 377, 379, 399, 405, 410, 433, 463, 465 & 475.

The Federal Premium copper coated lead BB load has 98 pellets per shell and the Federal Heavyweight 2 load has 78 pellets per shell. Five of the lead BBs hit the catalog and ten of the Heavyweight #2s hit the catalog.

In the above picture are the pellets I took out of the catalog. The copper coated lead BBs all flattened out when they hit the catalog. The Federal Heavyweight #2s stayed round and penetrated much deeper.

I have shot quite a few coyotes with Hevi-Shot and Remington Wingmaster HD shot and these heavier than lead hard pellets break bones much more often than lead loads do.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/24/12 10:34 PM

See... that right there is why this thread is such a great resource. Thank you again Bob for another great contribution! thumbup
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/29/12 01:42 PM

Originally Posted By: derbyacresbob
I didn't realize that the Federal Heavyweight shot was so much heavier than Hevi-Shot and Remington Wingmaster HD shot.

Hevi-Shot and Rem HD shot is 12g/cc and the Federal Heavyweight shot is 15g/cc. On the Federal Heavyweight box it says that the Heavyweight shot is 35% denser than lead.

The copper coated lead BBs all flattened out when they hit the catalog. The Federal Heavyweight #2s stayed round and penetrated much deeper.


Very interesting!
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/03/12 08:15 AM

Yesterday I shot a small coyote running straight away from me at 30 yards with one of my 3" reloads with 1-1/2 oz of Federal Heavyweight #2 shot in it.



I was surprised to see 3 exit holes in the forehead and below the eyes on this coyote.

It looks like these shells with 90 to 93 of the Federal Heavyweight super heavy #2 shot in them are going to work great on coyotes.
Posted by: Crabo

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/10/12 07:31 PM

I periodically revisit this thread to read all the info. I have been using my AR for hunting coyotes, but am going to start taking a friend and think we should have one on the shotgun.

SO many different loads have come and gone, how about a short starting list of 3" ammo I should start my testing with.

Thanks
Posted by: leebrown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/11/12 01:41 PM

Well I'm absolutely sold on the Federal flite control ammo. Start with the most open choke to have then go tighter. My guns put out very tight patterns with open skeet tubes.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/11/12 02:59 PM

Originally Posted By: leebrown
Well I'm absolutely sold on the Federal flite control ammo. Start with the most open choke to have then go tighter. My guns put out very tight patterns with open skeet tubes.


I wish they'd come out with a plated lead BB FC load as an economical alternative to their Heavy Coyote load.

If someone wants to save time and money FC loads work well for me, also. The Heavy Coyote, while high in cost per round, has given me broadside pass throughs on coyotes and bobcat from beyond 30 yards.

The #1 Buck is just phenomenal.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/11/12 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: mac805
Rich, What do you consider to be an acceptable pattern for #4 buck? With a taller bead and a slight change in my sight picture, I was able to bring the pattern down right where I want it.

Measured with my calipers the Carlson's choke is 0.665". I have a factory Remington extended super full which measures 0.675" and the factory flush full choke is 0.690". After multiple shots with each, the Carlson's was the most consistent and tightest pattern.

With eight shots for this load/choke combo I am averaging right at 10 pellets in a 9" circle at an honest 40 yards (first 4 shots adjusted for high POI).
--------------------------------
I need to apologize to you sir. I missed the portion of your above statement regarding your "Dead coyote" choke measuring .665. That is too tight for #4 Buck. My biggest gripe with Carlson is that they either sell you a choke that is too tight, or not tight enough. I think that your existing extended tube that you mentioned was .675 would be better. Now I do think that if you call Carlson's and tell them about your problem, they will swap you a new tube of around .675 I.D.



Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/11/12 05:36 PM

mac805 is shooting the No. Four Buck with .065" constriction from his Remington bore. If he is using a 3 ½” load then I would agree that is too much constriction. However, just for comparison my Benelli’s like .063” constriction for digesting a 3” No. Four Buck load. That is a .660” choke for the Benelli bore and I also tried .665”, .670” and .680” Kick’s chokes with the result the tightest choke shot best of the bunch. Again that is a 3” load and so is a bit less crowded when it hits the forcing cone and the choke so that does make a difference. I lost what length shell he was patterning?
Posted by: deerslyr1

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 11/11/12 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By: GLA.OR
Has anybody else tried the Kicks L or H chokes in their shotguns. I had thought about trying an L choke for my super nova but after seeing the patterns that sixohgto got I'm not too impressed. I have a few boxes of dead coyote left that I get good patterns out of with the DC choke and at least as good with 4 buck as what I saw there so I will stay with that. I guess there never will be a choke tube that works as well as advertised. I sure dont get 70 yard patterns that I would try on a coyote with the DC choke, even with the DC T loads.


i think i posted this here before but here goes. these were with a kicks howler H out of a mossberg 935 with 3.5" winchester #4 buck, note that point of impact is off, i just fixed that with a new burris fast fireIII holographic red dot
1st one at 30yds


next pic is @ 50yds same gun/load.....id say anything isnt gonna farwell 50 yds or under
Posted by: Dice102

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/14/12 02:22 PM

Hows that #1 buck on fur? Im wanting to keep my furs and am trying to find a good mix between tight patterns and fur friendly! I have a Remington 870 Express Super Mag, I have a Truglo Choke on there now from turkey hunting that a .665". I have yet to do any pattern testing.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/14/12 03:54 PM

Four Buck or BB/T-size shot is the sweet spot...
Posted by: Dice102

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/14/12 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Four Buck or BB/T-size shot is the sweet spot...


Ill have to try some of those options out. Where are you located in Mo, GC? I live around KC, but own property in Crosstimbers
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/14/12 07:13 PM

SE Ozark country...
Posted by: Yote Yoda USMC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/14/12 07:23 PM

A lot of good info.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/15/12 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
mac805 is shooting the No. Four Buck with .065" constriction from his Remington bore. If he is using a 3 ½” load then I would agree that is too much constriction. However, just for comparison my Benelli’s like .063” constriction for digesting a 3” No. Four Buck load. That is a .660” choke for the Benelli bore and I also tried .665”, .670” and .680” Kick’s chokes with the result the tightest choke shot best of the bunch. Again that is a 3” load and so is a bit less crowded when it hits the forcing cone and the choke so that does make a difference. I lost what length shell he was patterning?

-------------------------
GC,
I would appreciate seeing a photo of 40 and 50 yard patterns that you are getting with .063 of constriction. I have been ill with severe bronchitis, and unable to work on calls, so I took some time to look back at results I got with a Kicks .690. I have a .680 attached to my Beretta Extrema2, and had been telling myself that this was the best choice for my gun. As we both know, no two shotguns are alike in what they prefer and it is always a good idea to try a few different choke tubes in our quest for the best coyote whacking combination. The following two photos woke me up a little.

Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/15/12 09:16 PM

deerslyr1,

It is my opinion that the Kicks "HOWLER" tubes are their Kicks "BuckKicker" tubes under a different label. I am thinking that the Howler L is meant for lead pellets, and their H is for Hevi-shot. Your patterns look good except for a high point of impact. The point of impact can be corrected in various ways, so you should be in good shape. I mounted a Burris "speed Bead" on my Beretta, and adjusted the stock to fit my short necked and rather thick body. Now if I can just whip this Bronchitis, maybe I can get this old body moving again.
Good hunting,
Rich
Posted by: SCoyote

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/13 09:23 PM

Rich, I just mounted a Speed Bead on my Benelli M1 and I'm anxious to try it out.
Posted by: SCoyote

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/05/13 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Thanks for posting those pictures. You did a really good job with your patterning and posting those illustrated pictures. Amazing what an extra 5 or 10 yards can do to a pattern, isn't it? Your pictures reveal how finicky shotguns, chokes and various loads can be and how important it is to pattern them to ensure that your pattern is at point of aim and how well it performs at any given range. And how difficult it is to find that often quoted 70+ yard shotgun, choke and load combination. It is also amazing how much difference .010" in a choke can make on a pattern or simply a switch of brand of shell and/or shot size. Honest testing results are interesting stuff... smile

I would be interesting if the individual pellets could be follow on their flight 'path' all the way out to 50 and 60 yards. I remember throwing knuckle balls that would wobble for a while and then would really fall off in a random path at the end.
Posted by: coyote control

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/06/13 10:09 AM

Quote:
I remember throwing knuckle balls that would wobble for a while and then would really fall off in a random path at the end.

Ah - the old Knuckle ball, I remember them, I could throw it better than the "curve ball".
Posted by: ILYoteHunter

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/07/13 12:39 PM

I have a 12 ga benelli supernova, with Winchester 3inch double ot buck, with the primos jelly head choke tube, I can put all 15 pellets in the 12 inch ring @ 50 yards. With turkey shot winchester 3 1/2 in mags 4 shot out of the same gun and choke combination I have killed 2 turkeys over 60 yards each with only one shot and they never even moved around.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/07/13 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: ILYoteHunter
I have a 12 ga benelli supernova, with Winchester 3inch double ot buck, with the primos jelly head choke tube, I can put all 15 pellets in the 12 inch ring @ 50 yards. With turkey shot winchester 3 1/2 in mags 4 shot out of the same gun and choke combination I have killed 2 turkeys over 60 yards each with only one shot and they never even moved around.


You get 100% of the pattern consistently in 12" at 50 yards? That is... amazing. unsure
Posted by: Critter Gitter12

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/08/13 02:41 AM

Truly amazing at 50 yards
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/08/13 08:55 AM

A photo of that would be nice.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/08/13 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: ILYoteHunter
I have a 12 ga benelli supernova, with Winchester 3inch double ot buck, with the primos jelly head choke tube, I can put all 15 pellets in the 12 inch ring @ 50 yards. With turkey shot winchester 3 1/2 in mags 4 shot out of the same gun and choke combination I have killed 2 turkeys over 60 yards each with only one shot and they never even moved around.
-
------------------------------
Amazing! No photo's?
Posted by: SCoyote

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/08/13 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Originally Posted By: ILYoteHunter
I have a 12 ga benelli supernova, with Winchester 3inch double ot buck, with the primos jelly head choke tube, I can put all 15 pellets in the 12 inch ring @ 50 yards. With turkey shot winchester 3 1/2 in mags 4 shot out of the same gun and choke combination I have killed 2 turkeys over 60 yards each with only one shot and they never even moved around.


You get 100% of the pattern consistently in 12" at 50 yards? That is... amazing. unsure

And the turkeys didn't even move after being shot!
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/12/13 07:39 PM

"And the turkeys didn't even move after being shot!"
---------------------------------
That turkey must have been dead already. I have shot the head clean off from a couple of turkeys, and they still flopped around a lot before they quit moving. lol
Posted by: remmy1187

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/13 02:14 PM

Just wondering if anyone has tried the Winchester Elite coyote loads in size B? Tried the search engine but didn't find much on them. Good or bad?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/13 02:26 PM

The Winchester load is a smaller size pellet with less shot in the load overall than any of the other high tech loads - never interested me. When I get done with my stash of the now discontinued Remington HD-BB's, the load I am itching to try out is the Federal Heavyweight BB Coyote load. The Federal is the densest of all the tungsten type loads and should really be a super load if a guy works around the Flite Control wad they use.
Posted by: remmy1187

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/24/13 08:15 PM

I also want to give the Heavyweight BB a try, I too am using the HD-BB now taken out of the home defense loads and loaded in a 3in 1.5oz load. Cant wait to see your reviews on the Heavyweight.
Posted by: Wedgy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 01/28/13 12:35 PM

The price of the Heavyweight makes it too expensive to review. We need to set up a collection to fund a review. It's the only ammo I haven't patterened to at least test the point of impact(due to time and money). But I have taken several honkers with it a little past 50 yards.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/13 06:02 AM

i wish they would make some regular lead bb's or 4 buck with that flight control wad. 5 bucks a shell is outrageous. i loved the low recoil buck but its only for law enforcement now. i think they have some 3" mag 00 buck with that flight control wad. right now i believe thats the best bet on the market for us poor ole boys. at 40 yds with that low recoil 00 buck i got 8 of the 9 pellets in a 8" circle and always had 1 pellet fly about 5 inches high. how many 00 buck pellets do you guys think it takes in an 8" circle to perform well on a coyote?
Posted by: remmy1187

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/13 07:56 PM

Hornady website has the Heavy Magnum Coyote BB. 1.5 oz load of BB loaded in their Versalite wad, which looks like the Flight Control wad, at 1300 FPS. Don't know if it is available yet but looks worthy of a test run.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/13 08:08 PM

I plan to test it with hopes its more effective than there heavy magnum turkey load. i just could not get that stuff to pattern as well as i wanted. 30yds was about my max effective range with that stuff with a modefied choke. the carlson black cloud full choke seem to throw it around like it was too tight or somethin. and there self defence 00buck with that versatite wade wasent even close to the federal flight control stuff. 2 pellets in an 8" circle at 40 yds with the versatite stuff. 8 pellets with the flight control
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/13 08:11 PM

of course i only tryed #4 heavy turkey. perhaps a different shot size would change things but compared to #4 federal flight control the hornady didnt even come close in performance
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/02/13 08:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Wedgy
The price of the Heavyweight makes it too expensive to review. We need to set up a collection to fund a review. It's the only ammo I haven't patterened to at least test the point of impact(due to time and money). But I have taken several honkers with it a little past 50 yards.


Here's a 52 yard pattern I shot through a modified RemChoke a couple of years ago. My POI was a little high but the pattern was good. The coffee can lid is 6":





Originally Posted By: 22cat
i loved the low recoil buck but its only for law enforcement now.


I had no problems buying the LE1321B 15 pellet low recoil #1 Buck load, and I'm not an LEO....
Here's a 45 yard pattern shot with a 18.5" fixed mod barrel from my 870:





30 yards of the same:



If buckshot was legal here in OK, I'd use this day in, day out.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/03/13 06:13 AM

I love that stuff. my plan is to use my full choke and have the 00buck in my chamber while calling for one sneakin around past 40 yrds. and have the #4 buck to be the next shell in my mag. if one comes a flying by close i can pump the #4 buck in the chamber real quick and have a good spread flying at him. thats my plan any ways
Posted by: Sparrowhawk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/03/13 11:12 AM

Gearing up for a March snow goose control hunt. Already have an Xtrema2 28-in. And will pick up Benelli M2 Field 21-in. back-up this week.

Got that shorter bbl so it'll be handy for predators and 3-Gun, but want extended unported choke to keep noise down in blind.

Since I like Fed ammo think I'll prolly use Black Cloud Snow Goose load w FC wad, and using Fed FC loads later for predators.

Have also just learned Optima Plus and Crio tubes are interchangeable.

My fav e-shop has a Kick's Black Cloud Mod choke available w .723, but only Patternmaster Black Cloud Full .690.

Wondering if any of y'all have patterned w these chokes and FC wads loads of any size from Beretta OB & Benelli Crio bores and would share results.

Thank you.
Posted by: Wedgy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/04/13 11:08 AM

Interesting new wad from Winchester

http://randywakeman.com/WinchesterShotshellRevolutionAATrAAcker.htm


Winchester's New Shotshell Revolution: AA TrAAcker






At the 2013 SHOT Show in Las Vegas, Winchester introduced their new target shotshell for tracking the shot cloud and providing instant feedback on where you need to be to improve your shooting: the AA TrAAcker loads. This one is a really solid, innovative idea.

It is available in 12 gauge 1-1/8 oz. loads, with black or orange wads. Rather than a conventional wad that quickly drops away, the trAAcker wad retains some shot and is designed to closely follow the center of your pattern. If you miss, you'll know why and where.

For years, target shooters have insisted on trying to “read” their breaks, a practice that is generally worthless, a waste of time, and can be misleading. Neil Winston has put a lot of time into the matter as has Dr. A. C. Jones. It takes only one pellet to break a clay target and the human animal cannot reliably read breaks or tell with any meaning where the shotshell pattern was. We constantly kid ourselves into thinking we can; anything to avoid properly patterning our guns and so forth. Well-meaning shooters offer advice that sometimes is so off the mark that the budding shooter may become bewildered, frustrated, or a bit of both.

It was a cold day for the Las Vegas area, and unusually windy, but the folks from Winchester along with everyone's favorite Olympic Champion, Kim Rhode, was on hand to demonstrate the new TrAAcker loads at the 2013 Shot Show. The audio isn't very good due to the wind (okay, it is horrible), but here is an example of what they look like.



A bright day in the desert with a light blue sky meant the black traacker loads were the easiest to spot. Orange would likely be better on darker days, against trees, etc. Although Kim gently scolded me that I was “supposed to miss,” that isn't instinctive or intuitive. As far as I'm concerned, neither is doing anything but keeping hard focus on the target. Perhaps the best use of these loads is for your shooting buddy to give you instant, reliable, helpful feedback. No more wild speculation or worse yet, suggesting you were behind the bird when you actually shot over it and so forth.



Winchester has shown the wad does track the center of the pattern accurately, as you can see above just prior to wad impact. Unlike some tracer round attempts, you won't get blooper loads, they seem to show the center of the pattern, and best of all the price is only a dollar or so more per box of 25 than standard AA loads. This is outstanding product from Winchester, one that they should have no problem doing extremely well with. I can also see the TrAAcker AA loads as getting a lot of use on the dove field, for those of us that still don't always pick up quite as many doves as we do empty hulls.

It is very, very easy to see in person whether a miss was to the left, right, above or below. No question about it. It does work and work well . . . if it didn't, it never would have been released for this is the type of item that if offered no clear benefit wouldn't sell more than a box or two to an individual. Olin spent a small fortune in development, hardly just to sell a couple of boxes of shells at a low premium of a buck a box. It will sell like crazy and become a standard training aid. It sure beats the old "by gosh and by golly," reading breaks, etc.

I wouldn't call it the universal panacea, for it is far more valuable as a tool for the observer or the instructor than it is for the shooter. Now, an instructor or shooting buddy can give accurate feedback like never before . . . and it is far more helpful than a phosphorus or magnesium tracer, without the fire hazard.

If you send your wad through an ink blot, you can be sure you're on the bird. The distance from the tracker wad will vary in concert with distance, but this is of no particular impediment. Drilling those problem presentations allows you to perfect them and as with this type of training aid, the wad distance for a specific target presentation will be repeatable shot to shot. In my case, hard focus is always on the bird so it is my shooting partner that has the valuable feedback and vice-versa. There is a usable range limitation as well; whether it is 35 yards or 45 yards I can't tell you as of yet. There is little question that this is a valuable tool; just how valuable will reveal itself as time goes on.

Copyright 2013 by Randy Wakeman. All Rights Reserved.
Posted by: Wedgy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/04/13 11:12 AM

Also an interesting bit on ported chokes.


http://randywakeman.com/WhyPortinginaShotgunApplicationDoesNotWork.htm



Why Porting in a Shotgun Application Does Not Work

Although porting a shotgun barrel has been around for a very long time, it doesn't do much to reduce recoil. It does nothing to improve patterns, something rudimentary interior ballistics has shown for a very long time. High speed video has proved and reproved what was already shown by spark shadowgraphs from Ed Lowry years ago. Yet, despite all this well-known, well-accepted, peer-reviewed, proved and reproved information, porting still clumsily rears its ugly head from time to time. You might think there is some evil conspiracy to bring back the grace and beauty of the Cutts Compensator, or some conniving by the hearing aid industry to destroy the hearing of innocent Americans? The wonder choke has been “30 Percent More Effective” for a very long time, as you can see from this 1956 Poly-Choke ad-brag.



For starters, let's consider the .22 rimfire. Though it has a substantially higher breech pressure than a shotgun shell, the pressure rapidly falls off. It falls off to the point where past 15-16 inches of barrel length, it may actually lose velocity. A .22 rimfire doesn't burn much powder and after the powder decays in that first 15 inches or so, we have a combination of bullet drag and air pressure (the air in the barrel) that can combine to slow the projectile down slightly.

In a shotshell, peak pressure occurs inside the shell casing. Most of the propellant is consumed in the first 18-20 inches of barrel. Beyond that, pressure and acceleration fall off rapidly, to the point where muzzle pressure can be only a five hundred to a thousand psi, or less, according to H.P. White data. There are many, many sources for this information. A good one is Neil Winston. You can read Neil's study by downloading the PDF from his website: http://www.claytargettesting.com/study2/Study2.3.pdf. In Neil's example, peak pressure drops off after only seven-tenths of one millisecond, falling below 2000 psi at 1.5 milliseconds. The shot leaves the muzzle long after, comparatively, at about 3.5 milliseconds.

There isn't much acceleration going on downstream. This is evidenced by the tiny velocity differences between 24, 26, 28, and 30 inch shotgun barrels. There isn't much pressure left to do much of anything. Additionally, there is slight friction from the wad and again, our empty barrel isn't really empty . . . it is full of air that has resistance and must be pushed out of the barrel. This wouldn't apply in outer space, but I'm referring to conventional earth-bound applications.

The ridiculous idea is that the wad is driven into the shot column. Well, obviously it is, but significantly only at initial set-back and the first several inches of aggressive acceleration. The further downstream we get from the muzzle, the once 8000 – 9000 psi breech pressure diminishes to trivia. Shot and wad leave the muzzle simultaneously, and of course there is still wad pressure on the shot, with the shot still being forced towards the base and sides of the shot cup, just as always. In the case of conventional wads, the petals open instantly like giant air brakes, the shot cloud continuing undisturbed. Trying to relief the pressure behind the wad is fruitless as there is scant little pressure that could be relieved and the pressure in front of the shot, the atmosphere, cannot be. This is why porting is one of those eternal Pet Rocks of Shotgunning. It cannot do anything for patterns and it doesn't.

As for the bogus claims of recoil reduction and reduction in muzzle rise, it can't be said that it doesn't work, just that it doesn't work significantly or noticeably. To the extent that porting reduces weight, it must actually increase recoil although that is equally imperceptible.



Ed Lowry's spark shadowgraphs were able to show the effects of choke accurately and vividly. While at one time, Cylinder chokes were thought to have shorter shot strings, it was Full choke that did, due to simple (but overlooked) wind drafting. Since the spark shadowgraph days, high speed video has re-proved what Ed Lowry was able to show long ago.



Above, a representative pressure curve from the M193 5.56mm cartridge. With many center fire cartridges, porting does indeed work to reduce recoil as you may have 20-30 times the pressure to work with. Center fire rifle muzzle break results do not translate to shotguns however, a vastly different application.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/08/13 12:28 PM

Wedgy,

It probably is not true with all shotguns, but my Beretta Extrema2 seems to shoot better patterns with ported chokes. I think maybe the porting retards the wad somewhat.

Now Wedgy, I have been wanting to ask you something so here goes----Do you still have that Wedgy? Maybe you could have a friend pull it out for ya. LOL lol
Posted by: Wedgy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/08/13 07:21 PM

Ha, good one !! I got the name Wedgy as a rock climber. I weighed about 210lbs and most of my friends were in the 160-170 range so when I would take a fall whoever caught would get lifted off the ground by the rope and get a .....Wedgy.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/10/13 09:25 AM

Thanks for explaining that Wedgy. The visual thoughts that pop into my old brain when I see one of your posts were hilarious. lol
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/10/13 01:05 PM

A lot of very knowledgeable folks don't put much stock in Wakeman’s blogging. I sort the wheat from the chaff out of his musings. I think he has some really good solid information here and there.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/10/13 08:04 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
A lot of very knowledgeable folks don't put much stock in Wakeman’s blogging. I sort the wheat from the chaff out of his musings. I think he has some really good solid information here and there.

------------------------------------
Oh yes, there was good information in his above post and I appreciate every bit of it. I was all wrapped up in thinking about his wedgy when I read it the first time though. Mr. Wakeman is obviously very learned up about shotguns, and I hope he posts more.
Posted by: Wedgy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/11/13 12:11 PM

One of Wakemans articles about shot string was pretty interesting to me. I shoot a .410 in skeet league and one of the guys was saying it has a much longer shot string. So much longer that the birds are just flying into it. How long can it be at skeet shots, 100' at longest shot ?? His article was from some testing guy from Winchester(?) had his wife drive by perpendicular towing a box trailer at 35mph. He shot the side of the trailer to see how the shot string would spead out. If there was this long shot string it should make an elipse on the flat wall of the trailer, instead of a cirlce. It was basically round, dispelling the myth. I would love to see that tested !!!! LOL Shooting at your wifes station wagon.... good times
Posted by: doggin coyotes

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/11/13 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Wedgy
Shooting at your wifes station wagon.... good times


Shooting at your ex wifes Toyota Prius, better times.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/11/13 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: doggin coyotes
Originally Posted By: Wedgy
Shooting at your wifes station wagon.... good times


Shooting at your ex wifes Toyota Prius, better times.


Uh oh... lol
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/11/13 04:11 PM

Shooting a Prius at your ex-wife is pretty satisfying as well.


Chupa
Posted by: Shurshot

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/11/13 09:41 PM

I'll stick to cardboard... after 37 years of marriage, she would likely shoot back! and I don't have an ex-wife so the cardboard will have to do! smile
Posted by: Redcloud

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 02/21/13 08:23 AM

I would like to try one of the "old style" Dead Coyote chokes with the Fed. Flt. Cont. Wad. They were non ported and should work well. If anyone knows of one for sale for the Invector PM me.
Posted by: Sparrowhawk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/02/13 09:19 AM

GC;

I live near Nashville so hit the NWTF a few Saturdays ago.

Dropped by the Federal Ammunition booth and struck up a conversation with one of the marketing guys about creating a Premium 3-in. 4 Buck load using the Flight Control wad. Told him about this forum & thread & how some members are loving the 1 Buck LE 2 3/4 load for predators.

He said, "Tell this to our top ballistic guy" and called a guy over. I guess it was Alan Corzine, but repeated the info to him.

He looked thoughtful and said, "How many rounds a year would you buy?"

"At least 50 rounds a year," sez I. "Predator hunting is getting popular; just walk around the show &look at all the predator gear. I'm getting FC specific choke tubes for my Benelli M2 and Beretta Xtrema and would like to have a Line of FC varmint loads to run in them."

He said he'd look into it. I told him they'd sell just as well to HD buyers as varmint hunters and said big shot and buck loads fly off the shelves around here anyways.

I think if you, as the PM SME, would write him, as well as other members, we could make it happen.

Gonna write him myself this weekend. thumbup

Dan
Posted by: Bernie P.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/02/13 09:25 AM

IMO What we could use is some 3" copper plated lead BBB and T shot loads.Even non plated would be welcome.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/02/13 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Bernie P.
IMO What we could use is some 3" copper plated lead BBB and T shot loads.Even non plated would be welcome.


I agree with you on the lead BBB and T shot sizes. They are big enough to do a good job and you get many more pellets per shell than number 4 buck shot.
Posted by: Sparrowhawk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/02/13 12:59 PM

That's why I said "Line". Write them a letter AND call. It can happen. grin
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/13 02:38 PM

Originally Posted By: derbyacresbob
Originally Posted By: Bernie P.
IMO What we could use is some 3" copper plated lead BBB and T shot loads.Even non plated would be welcome.


I agree with you on the lead BBB and T shot sizes. They are big enough to do a good job and you get many more pellets per shell than number 4 buck shot.


Yep, agreed on with the smaller BBB & T size pellets for a predator specific load. You might be surprised who all reads through this thread.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/03/13 11:48 PM

copper platted lead T's with flight control wad or some F buck with flight control wad would be amazing IMO
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/13 08:37 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCa2YgXirXY

WOW 108 yd Coyote DRT.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/13 11:09 AM

Originally Posted By: 22cat


Posted by: remmy1187

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/13 06:32 PM

A little bit of luck never hurt anybody.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/13 10:40 PM

haha I hear ya GC and Remmy1187. but never the less even for a lucky shot. that was an amazing kill shot them boys caught on film there. I just thought I would share it cause it blew my mind when I seen it today.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/04/13 11:10 PM

Amazing, indeed.....

Posted by: J.Mark

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/05/13 10:38 PM

Ive been enjoying this thread.In the past I shot all my coyotes with 2 3/4" mag 2 shot.It just knocked them dead inside 35 yd.Later I preferred bb.Really regret not buying 100 lbs. of bb before they quit makeing it.My interest in the shotgun and longer range out to 50 yd. or so has been peeked.Could you guy,s tell me if the different chokes really perform better. I have a 12 ga. rem.870 super magnum turkey with a 23" barrel.The gun patterns best with the rem.full choke when using bb or 2 shot.The super full rem. choke patterned crappy and I was wondering if another brand of choke really makes a difference.
Posted by: J.Mark

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/06/13 12:23 AM

I didnt word that very well. My question is, if you have 5 different mannufactures chokes all in the same diameter,do they perform diffrently?
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/06/13 08:41 AM

Originally Posted By: J.Mark
I didnt word that very well. My question is, if you have 5 different mannufactures chokes all in the same diameter,do they perform diffrently?


Probably so... I am referring to extended chokes and not so much the flush fit factory type. The five chokes will probably all be manufactured with a different design internally and somewhat externally that can influence the pattern. The differences in the pattern may not be all that much, but in some cases it can be quite remarkable.
Posted by: Bernie P.

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/06/13 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: J.Mark
I didnt word that very well. My question is, if you have 5 different mannufactures chokes all in the same diameter,do they perform diffrently?

As far as my 835 goes there are some chokes available with the same constriction in both flush and extended.Mberg and Trulock for example.However all makers vary the tubes constriction slightly from one another so you can only compare one brands size in flush vs extended.
Posted by: J.Mark

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/06/13 10:45 PM

Thanks, I guess I have some testing to do.I like to use the rifle,but the shotgun is king when they come charging through these woods.You just dont want to turn the fur into a dishrag with to tight a pattern on a close target.
Posted by: Deadeye0722

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/08/13 09:57 PM

I am not sure where I saw it maybe youtube but a guy shot a coyote with dead coyote load and a dead coyote choke tube at 106 yards if I remember right. Just a thought but I have been told that dead coyote and the buck shot loads shoot very well out to sixty yards out of a pattern master choke, the extended range version. I would like to see some patterning done with that setup. I personally use my 870 supermag with winchester turkey load #5 shot with a super full turkey choke for yotes and fox. Patterns awesome out to fifty yards. Plus I do a lot of hunting at night here in Michigan and the law is no buck shot at night, biggest we can shoot is T shot at night. But have a hard time paying 40 dollars for ten shots of dead coyote.
Posted by: BroncoGlenn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/09/13 03:33 AM

Deadeye, while I have my doubts about the legitimacy of a 106 yard shotgun kill on a coyote, Dead Coyote load or not, for the sake of argument I'll roll with it but it is really only attributable to dumb luck more than anything. But realistically, I believe that whoever ranged that distance didn't take into account the 60 yards the coyote ran before he expired. That or he fails to realize that his 3 foot flat ground stride is only 1 1/2 feet over rough terrain.

Shotgunning past 40 yards, regardless of load and choke is more of an art. A moving target, coupled with decreased energy (penetration) of shot at longer ranges, and the need to know where exactly your pattern is going at that point, is much like long range rifle shooting at big game. Sure you hear stories of people dropping a bull elk at 500+ yards, but those are largely the exception and not the rule.

Tungsten based shot or not, shotgun pellets lose energy quickly. Without that energy they can't penetrate to vitals. The pellets themselves don't carry much weight, and they are already moving at relatively slow shotgun speeds, they start out behind the power curve. In reality if you want to shotgun coyotes at 60+ yards you'd probably be better off with a 10/22 with a reflex sight and a 25 round magazine filled with Velocitors and just start dumping rounds. Those 40 grain .22 bullets start at over 1400 fps (a couple hundred more than most shotgun loads) and will bring more energy to the target being they weigh more and are moving faster. "But a .22 is a terrible choice for shooting coyotes," most will say. But every now and again someone drops a coyote with a shot from a .22. Exactly my point. And that's exactly why shotgunning at those ranges is a poor idea. And at $4-$5 per shell for some of these exotic loads how much money are you willing to throw at that coyote before you realize what advertising says engineering can do tends to be two distinctly different things.

If you can't call them within 40 yards go with a rifle. You are going to go through the trouble to get to and setup a stand, don't shortchange yourself by taking less than marginal shots.

But this isn't the first time the idea of long shots of Dead Coyote has been brought up: [url=Here's a thread from 2005]http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=317877&page=1[/url]
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/09/13 02:37 PM

Great reply BroncoGlenn!

The main problem with the Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote, Remington HD Predator T loads and many of the lead number 4 buck shot loads is the pattern falls apart way before the killing energy of each pellet goes away.

It is possible to kill coyotes out to 70 yards or more with these loads. But it is much more likely that the coyotes won't be hit in the vitals and they will run off.

I have to shoot lead free shotgun shells at coyotes and I prefer the Rem HD BB shot or #2 shot and the Federal Heavyweight # 2 shot for coyotes. They do a great job at 50 yards and less and there are many more pellets per shell than the Tungsten T shot loads or the lead number 4 buck shot loads.

No matter what shotgun load you use for coyotes it is a good idea to try and shoot them at 40 yards and less.
Posted by: VeronaSX

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/19/13 12:31 PM

I read through this whole thread and learned a ton of valuable information. Figured I'd share some pattern pics for your opinions.
Gun is a Supernova shooting an Indian creek BDS.665 turkey choke.

I realized my red dot was hitting low, it is fixed now. Both shots were at 40 yards.

3" Remington #4 buck
[img:left][/img]

3" Winchester extended range B [img:left][/img]
Posted by: dennyd

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/19/13 08:37 PM

They don't look to bad, i have the best patterns with federal #4 buck.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/19/13 10:00 PM

Twenty hits in the 10" @ 40 yards with No. Four Buck is a killer pattern. Sight that thing in and happily go forth and slay critters.
Posted by: jase

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/27/13 06:54 AM

Awesome thread this, i should have found this site years ago.
Posted by: dfasano

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/29/13 01:34 PM

Lots of good info in this thread. Will take me forever to read from start to finish!
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/29/13 04:57 PM

It is worth the effort if you are serious about shotgunning predators. Enjoy! smile
Posted by: BroncoGlenn

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/29/13 09:10 PM

Originally Posted By: dfasano
Lots of good info in this thread. Will take me forever to read from start to finish!


Executive summary:
Pattern your own shotgun at varying distances with a couple different chokes for the loads you have in mind.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/29/13 11:35 PM

Here is another link of my personal rambling that is considerably more concise. Pay particular attention to the last two sections...

http://www.easterncoyotes.com/home/41?task=view

What it lacks is the excellent penetration testing done by derbyacresbob. That is well worth digging through here for and giving a real good study.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 03/30/13 04:22 PM

I finally got me a good setup. my gun shoots a little high and a little left [beeep] so its hard to get my hold right. ounce i get some sights to get me dead on then i will be in business. at a ranged by leupold rx-600 rangefinder, 40 yds with remington 3" 4 buck (41 pellets) i got on average of 22 pellets in an 8" circle. 3 shots. federal power-shok 4 buck i got 5 pellets all three shots with the kicks goblin thunder .685 choke. browning bps 12ga. i tryed a kicks .675 with the federal and it was too tight and blowed my pattern. so i got a solid 40yd killer if i can get my poa right. a while ago i fired the remington 4 buck at from a tree in my yard that is 53yds to my target according to the leupold rx-600 to see what it looked like. here is my pattern at 53 yds.

[img]http://s548.photobucket.com/user/22cat/media/bear013.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1[/img]

the circle with 7 pellets in it is where i think the center of the pattern was

[img]http://s548.photobucket.com/user/22cat/media/bear014.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0[/img]
Posted by: coyotekillerNE

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/01/13 07:58 PM

Has anyone been able to get/test the Hornady magnum coyote BB yet? I've seen it used by Les Johnson and the Predator Instinct guys but haven't seen any in the wild.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/02/13 09:48 AM

I checked Bass Pro shops in Orlando FL the day before yesterday (down here on vacation) and they did not have any of the Hornady. They had the federal 1 7/8 oz BB's and #2's for $40 for a box of 25 shells... Then I seen they had the remington wingmaster hd in #6 and $4 for $9 a box... so i bought 3 boxes of each for turkey and didnt purchase anything for coyote. I wish they had some bb or something for that prise on the wingmaster ammo. I aslo checked gander mountain and they dident have much of anything but skeet loads and steel duck and goose loads. i cant find the hornady heavy coyote anywhere.
Posted by: coyotekillerNE

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/02/13 10:16 AM

My hope is that Hornady will exploit the cornered market of the other manufactures with this new load. All these other companies aren't selling their 'coyote' loads for $4-5 a round because their offering a cheaper alternative in lead rather than non-tox. Even if this new load isn't as good, Hornady will far outsell their competition if they can keep up with demand.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/05/13 06:01 PM

I can't use lead in the area I hunt coyotes in so I use the heavier than lead non toxic Tungsten alloy shot. It works much better than lead but I would still be using lead shot if I could. Lead BB shot works pretty good on the small coyotes that I hunt.

The heavier and harder than lead Tungsten alloy shot in sizes #2, B and BB are devastating on coyotes.

I have taken the shot out of the factory load 1-1/4 oz and 1-3/8 oz HD, Heavyweight and Xtended Range loads that I bought on sale when they were being closed out.

Today I just opened up 80 Winchester Xtended Range Hi Density 3" 1-3/8 oz B shot loads.

In 26 of these shells the fiber filler wad that is 3/8" thick was sitting at a 45 degree angle or sitting side ways in the wad. So some of the filler wads had shot on both sides of it with some shot sitting on the bottom of the shot cup..

Out of these 80 shells some of them had buffer to the top of the shot, some had very little buffer and some of them had no buffer.

I did count the pellets in 4 of these shells and they all had 82 B shot pellets in each shell. I weighed out some 1-3/8 oz shot charges and I got 80 to 81 pellets per 1-3/8 oz shot charge according to my scale.


These are the 3" hulls and the fiber filler wads that I removed from the plastic shot cups.


This is the Winchester Xtended Range Hi Density B shot that came out of the shells. This shot really looks good to me.


In this picture the silver looking shot is the Win Xtended Range B shot. The darker colored shot is Federal Heavyweight #2 shot.

It looks like there is right at 59 pellets per ounce with the Winchester Xtended Range B shot and 61 pellets per ounce with the Federal Heavyweight #2 shot.

I just found some 3" 12 ga 1-5/8 oz Heavyweight shot loading data in the RSI Heavyweight Shot Reloader's Guide Vol 3.

I reloaded 100 3" Federal hulls with 1-5/8 oz of Rem HD BB's and now I plan on reloading all of the Win Xtended Range B shot in 1-5/8 oz loads in the Federal 3" hulls.

There is right at 77 pellets in the 1-5/8 oz HD BB load and there should be right at 93 pellets in the 1-5/8 oz loads of Win Xtended Range B shot loads.

http://s148.photobucket.com/user/derbyacresbob/media/Favorites/Drakeridge.mp4.html
Watch the above video. The coyote in this video was shot with 1-1/2 oz of Rem HD BB shot.
Posted by: Cotton243

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/05/13 06:23 PM

Great thread and info!
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/10/13 04:23 PM

as expensive as the tungsten loads are, you would think all the shells would be made properly and equal. your post there has been the info that has determined the reason why I am now going to purchase a re-loader for shotgun shells. this is probably the best bit of info on the internet for shotgun data. thank you all for your contributions.
Posted by: coyotekillerNE

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/17/13 03:07 PM

I just purchased a used stoeger m2000 12 gauge with a 26" barrel. Can anyone give me some insight into what choke+restriction would be a good starting place. I have several different loads in #4 buck to test. I will not be using any non-tox unless the price goes down.
Thanks.
Posted by: leebrown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 05/17/13 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: coyotekillerNE
I just purchased a used stoeger m2000 12 gauge with a 26" barrel. Can anyone give me some insight into what choke+restriction would be a good starting place. I have several different loads in #4 buck to test. I will not be using any non-tox unless the price goes down.
Thanks.


Check out my post on this page with #1 buck.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...rue#Post2296424
Posted by: Brandon Denogean

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 07/24/13 09:04 AM

so how many pellets is ideal to be in a a 10 in circle or say 8 in at 40 and 50 yds?
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 08/04/13 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Brandon Denogean
so how many pellets is ideal to be in a a 10 in circle or say 8 in at 40 and 50 yds?


GC wrote in the first part of this topic:
"Byron South and I have discussed this, we both feel you need at least five solid hits for reliable kills. I don't believe in the "magic pellet" and hoping for one or two lucky pellet strikes. Many of these new fangled hi-tech loads have the pellet energy for five good hits to reliably kill coyotes at long range. But can you get the pattern out there..."
Posted by: leebrown

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/02/13 09:21 PM

I'm still sold on Federal Flite control buckshot. Today I tried the 12ga. 3" 00 buck @30 yds., Stoeger M2000, 26" barrel, factory cyl. choke tube. All you need for these loads are an open choke, no buying all these expensive aftermarket tubes.

Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/13 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: leebrown
I'm still sold on Federal Flite control buckshot. Today I tried the 12ga. 3" 00 buck @30 yds., Stoeger M2000, 26" barrel, factory cyl. choke tube. All you need for these loads are an open choke, no buying all these expensive aftermarket tubes.


-----------------------
I would like to see photo's of your patterns at 40 and 50 yards. Thirty yard patterns don't tell a man much.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/13 09:21 AM

Lee, I use the same Federal Flite Control 00 Buck in the 2 ¾” nine pellet loads in my M1S90 Benelli Tactical 18 ½” barrel with a modified factory choke for home defense. It keeps an 8” – 10” pattern at point of aim at 25 yards. Modified choke patterned best for me of all the chokes. It would work well enough for short range coyotes but lacks pattern density for really best effect. I could not reliably kill a coyote beyond 30 yards with it because of the rapidly dispersing pattern and low pellet count. If all I had were short to mid-range shots, while it would work I would strongly prefer something with more pellets. Coyotes don’t require 00 Buck to knock them down. Good old Number Four Buck or the Federal 1 7/8 ounce lead BB load puts a lot more pellets on the target and are just as, if not more, effective at those short to mid-range yardages. If the cost isn’t a factor tungsten BB or T-shot is just about a perfect combination and just shreds them inside. Number Four Buck or tungsten BB/T's also have the ability to reach out there and do the work at longer ranges with good pattern density and penetration when choked properly if that is needed in a particular hunting situation.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/13 02:12 PM

GC,
I agree with you regarding what you said in above post. Have you tried 3" Federal flight control fodder in smaller than 00 BUCK ?
I am wondering how well that stuff holds up at 40-50 yards.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/05/13 07:45 PM

Rich, I have not used the Flight Control Four Buck load. I have shot some of the turkey loads with the Flite Control. Finicky...
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/06/13 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: GC
Rich, I have not used the Flight Control Four Buck load. I have shot some of the turkey loads with the Flite Control. Finicky...

-------------------
Finicky? Now THAT is what I call an honest answer. lol
Posted by: LARUEminati

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/11/13 10:12 AM


Patternmaster Code Black Turkey Choke (updated with range report)
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/11/13 09:26 PM



Thank you for the contribution to the thread. This quote is interesting...

Quote:
The choke has a .665” ID and also has three “stud” rings on the inside that from what I understand are proprietary to Patternmaster.


Indian Creek has been using rings in their chokes for years now, though I believe Indian Creek uses five rings in their chokes.
Posted by: LARUEminati

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 09:16 AM

Originally Posted By: GC


Thank you for the contribution to the thread. This quote is interesting...

Quote:
The choke has a .665” ID and also has three “stud” rings on the inside that from what I understand are proprietary to Patternmaster.


Indian Creek has been using rings in their chokes for years now, though I believe Indian Creek uses five rings in their chokes.


Good to know I'll have to check them out. I was just going off Patternmasters website where they say the studs were their patented "wad-stripping" technology that's why I said it was "my understanding" that it was proprietary to them. I think patternmaster also uses the 5 stud rings aswell just not in this particular choke.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 10:10 AM

Reposting patterns from Federal LE1321B 15 pellet Flight Control #1 buck.

I posted these over a year ago.

So far, leebrown is the only one I've noticed who is picking up what I'm laying down....

At 45 yards, I don't think there is a round with more killing power (outside of a slug) that has the pattern density required for coyotes.

45 yards:



30 yards:



60 yards:



18.5" fixed modified Remington 870:

Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 06:17 PM

I like more pellets in my coyote loads.





The paper these patterns were shot on was 22" X 28" so both of the above patterns are right at 20" wide at 40 yards.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: derbyacresbob
I like more pellets in my coyote loads.


I understand DAB.
But can you see my point?
Over half your load is out side the 12" @ 40 yds.
All of the #1 Buck is inside 12" @ 45 yds.

The #1 Buck will also have superior penetration at these distances and beyond, which we can both agree is of utmost importance in a long range shotgun/coyote load.

Penetration obviously trumps the number of hits at long range, or we'd all be shooting dove loads.

I wish I could field test the Federal load, but it is illegal to use for hunting coyotes in Oklahoma. I can only use it to defend my dogs from predation here at the house.

Maybe someone in a buckshot friendly state can give it a try?

More:
Assuming the HD BB is the 1.5 oz load and 73 pellets in the load....
1.5 oz = 656.25 grains / 73 = 8.9897 call it 9 gr per pellet
LE1321B is 38.83 grains each pellet X 15 pellets = 582.45 total grains.

Muzzle velocities (Since I don't have down ranges velocities)
1300(?) for HD BB
1095(real world chronograph out of an 18" barrel) for the LE1321B

Energy calculations
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175
Link to calculator

9 grains @ 1300fps yields 33.76 ft/lbs X number of hits (32)= 1080.32 ft/lbs

38.83 grains @ 1095fps yields 103.35ft/lbs X number of hits (15) = 1550.25 ft/lbs

So the pellets that hit inside 12" with HD BB left the muzzle with roughly 2/3 the energy that the LE1321B had when it left the muzzle.
Couple that with superior penetration of the larger shot (14-18 inches of penetration in calibrated gel tests vs < 14" with the HD BB) and you can see why I think this load is far superior at delivering killing power at these distances.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 10:34 PM

I tested some of that Fed #1 buck flight control. It shot inconsistent for me out of several chokes. Pattern size was inconsistent, some shells shot tight like a bullet, others were strung vertical etc. When it works right, it's down right impressive!

But more importantly, the POI varied from shot to shot. Multiple shots never impacted in the same place. One shot would be low, the next wide, then low again, then high, the wide and high. The load flies like a floater.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 10:39 PM

CrazyHorse, can you put up a paper plate at 40 yards and be certain the majority of your 15 pellets are going to hit it? Because my testing (with a red dot sight) shows the pattern may or may not hit the paper plate at 40 yards. Good pattern, but doesn't matter if the pattern has an inconsistent Point Of Impact.

I ditched it for #4 buck, more pellets on target consistenty.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 11:29 PM

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
CrazyHorse, can you put up a paper plate at 40 yards and be certain the majority of your 15 pellets are going to hit it?


My pattern size did vary somewhat. The picture I posted was of median size. The following pictures were taken while sighting in and with some flinching involved as the session progressed.
Again these are @ 45 yds.

Tight tight tight! This was my first shot before sight adjustment. It was cantaloupe sized everything in 9":



More sight adjustment. 12 hits in 12".



A little stringing. One more sight adjustment. 8 in 12".



Pattern centered. Opens up a little. Consistent pattern though..



BooYah! That's a gem..



A little stringing, but centered. I flinched a little here.
12 in 12"



Once sight adjustments were made, the patterns were on POA.

Another shooting session showed 2 out of 10 patterns opening up, 2 out of 10 on POA with some stringing, the rest on POA with good uniform patterns.

Even the patterns that opened up were capable of real world killing.
Outside of flinching, the patterns go to POA.

If I had 10 coyotes inside 45 yds with one shot each and I would be bold enough to say that 9 would go down and one would get lucky. smile
Give me two good shots and nothing gets out alive.

I had the confidence to drop the one I posted above @ 60 yards.
He went down with one shot but was still sucking air. I finished him off with the bayonet after my dog worked him over good.

That makes me one for one on coyotes with this load.



Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 11:40 PM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: derbyacresbob
I like more pellets in my coyote loads.


I understand DAB.
But can you see my point?
Over half your load is out side the 12" @ 40 yds.
All of the #1 Buck is inside 12" @ 45 yds.

The #1 Buck will also have superior penetration at these distances and beyond, which we can both agree is of utmost importance in a long range shotgun/coyote load.

Penetration obviously trumps the number of hits at long range, or we'd all be shooting dove loads.

I wish I could field test the Federal load, but it is illegal to use for hunting coyotes in Oklahoma. I can only use it to defend my dogs from predation here at the house.

Maybe someone in a buckshot friendly state can give it a try?

More:
Assuming the HD BB is the 1.5 oz load and 73 pellets in the load....
1.5 oz = 656.25 grains / 73 = 8.9897 call it 9 gr per pellet
LE1321B is 38.83 grains each pellet X 15 pellets = 582.45 total grains.

Muzzle velocities (Since I don't have down ranges velocities)
1300(?) for HD BB
1095(real world chronograph out of an 18" barrel) for the LE1321B

Energy calculations
Formula used:
Energy = .5 * weight * velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175
Link to calculator

9 grains @ 1300fps yields 33.76 ft/lbs X number of hits (32)= 1080.32 ft/lbs

38.83 grains @ 1095fps yields 103.35ft/lbs X number of hits (15) = 1550.25 ft/lbs

So the pellets that hit inside 12" with HD BB left the muzzle with roughly 2/3 the energy that the LE1321B had when it left the muzzle.
Couple that with superior penetration of the larger shot (14-18 inches of penetration in calibrated gel tests vs < 14" with the HD BB) and you can see why I think this load is far superior at delivering killing power at these distances.


I want a wider pattern to make it easier to hit a running coyote at 40 to 50 yards. The HD BB size pellets will penetrate deep enough to kill coyotes out farther than the pattern will hold up.

If I can shoot a deadly 20" wide pattern instead of a deadly 8" wide pattern I will choose the wider pattern every time.

I really don't want my shotgun to shoot like a rifle.

I don't need anymore penetration than what the HD BBs give me to kill coyotes and I really like the fact that I can put more pellets on the target.

If fifteen #1 buck shot pellets each penetrate 18" into gel that would be a total of 270" of potential penetration.

If 73 Rem HD pellets each penetrate 14" into gel that would be a total of 1022" of potential penetration.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/12/13 11:48 PM

I can't argue with your success Bob, but I'd sure like to see some people who know their way around a shotgun field trial some of this.

Incidentally, I never can find any calibrated gel testing with the HD BB from Remington.
The < 14" number came from ATK concerning the Federal HD Coyote stuff that is denser than the Remington.
They claim 14" but admitted that the gel was not calibrated with a BB, although the gel was mixed and chilled within the FBI specs.

From my email with ATK:

Quote:
The gel was made and stored to the FBI protocol, but I highly doubt the gel was calibrated(shot with a BB) before conducting the test.

Regards,


Erik Carlson
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/13/13 12:11 AM

The Federal Heavyweight shot density is 15g/cc compared to the Rem HD shot that is 12g/cc density so the Rem HD BB penetration would be less penetration than the Federal Heavyweight BB pellets.

I have shot some coyotes with the Federal Heavyweight #2 shot and it is unreal.

I bought a bunch of the Federal Heavyweight 3" 1-1/4 oz #2 loads when Rodger's was closing them out at a very low price. I removed the shot from them and reloaded most of it into 3" Fiocchi hulls with 1-1/2 oz of shot.

On the Federal Heavyweight boxes it says that the Federal Heavyweight shot is 35% denser than lead.

The Rem HD #2 shot 1-1/2 oz loads had just over 120 pellets in each shell.

The Federal Heavyweight #2 shot loads that I reloaded with 1-1/2 oz of shot had just over 90 pellets in each shell.

The Federal Heavyweight shot is so dense I wouldn't want to shoot it in BB size. A federal Heavyweight BB 1-1/2 oz load may only have around 55 to 58 pellets in each shell compared to the Rem HD 1-1/2 oz BB load that would have 70 to 73 pellets in each shell.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/13 09:28 AM

I see quite a few choke/load combinations that will kill coyotes, but nothing seems to beat the hevi-shot "T,s". It is expensive no doubt, but nothing comes cheap these days.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/cronkcalls/Hunting%20adventures/DSCF13541.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/cronkcalls/Hunting%20adventures/DSCF13551.jpg
Posted by: Coyotejunki

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/13 09:30 AM

What gun/setup are you shooting that out of Rich?
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/13 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Coyotejunki
What gun/setup are you shooting that out of Rich?

-------------------------
I shoot a Beretta Extrema2 with a Burris speed bead attached. Choke tube Is a Kicks BuckKicker .690.
Posted by: Tim Neitzke

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/13 07:00 PM

I love the DC T shot,but they priced themselves out of my reach this last time.

Makes a wicked pattern and just plain kills.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/14/13 07:40 PM

Check out the below link for Win Xtended Range shotgun shells. There are many different loads in #2s, B & T shot. These shells are right at $20.00 less per box than Hevi-Shot loads. The shot density is 12g/cc just like Hevi-Shot.

http://www.lg-outdoors.com/products.asp?cat=12560

Here is some Win Xtended Range B shot it looks much better than Hevi-Shot does.



I bought a case of the 20 ga 3" #2 shot loads for my grandson to use in 5 or 6 years. I don't think these loads are still being made so get them while you can.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/16/13 10:07 AM

Originally Posted By: GC
Rich, I have not used the Flight Control Four Buck load. I have shot some of the turkey loads with the Flite Control. Finicky...


Where is the flight control in 4 buck? I been wanting that product to try for a while now but was unaware federal sold such a thing.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/16/13 12:02 PM

Never seen the Four Buck with the Flite Control wad. Federal loads 00 Buck and now No. 1 Buck with the Flite Control wad. I assumed from the conversation and without checking that Federal was also now loading the smaller No. Four Buck with the Flite Control wad. Thought it was a new loading that I am unaware of, though I just checked and don't see it listed by Federal in No. Four Buck.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/16/13 08:06 PM

Here is a link to a video everyone here needs to see. I watched it and still am in shock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHIrUYRiBk
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/16/13 10:10 PM

I ain't buying it... I shot the heII out of that load in testing and it didn't perform anything like that.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/16/13 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Never seen the Four Buck with the Flite Control wad.


Hornady uses their "VersaTite" wad in their #4 buck Varmint load.
It's their version of the Flight Control wad.
I didn't have much luck with it through my old barrel.
I still have some left over. I may revisit the paper with it and my current barrel.
As for Federal Flight Control, my current barrel doesn't pattern the HeavyWeight Coyote BB as well as my old barrel, but it sure does well with that #1 buck load.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/16/13 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
I ain't buying it... I shot the heII out of that load in testing and it didn't perform anything like that.


Get those high dollar chokes out of the tube and use a modified or improved cylinder. smile
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/13 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: GC
I ain't buying it... I shot the heII out of that load in testing and it didn't perform anything like that.


Get those high dollar chokes out of the tube and use a modified or improved cylinder. smile

------------------------------
I am still rather confused. I will watch the video again but I don't think the tester mentioned which choke he was using. Even if the load actually performs that well, I am not convinced that it would be a good coyote load. Why? A pattern the size of a grapefruit would require very precise aiming, and a coyote that stands still long enough to make the shot. May as well carry a rifle I think.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/13 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: GC
I ain't buying it... I shot the heII out of that load in testing and it didn't perform anything like that.


Get those high dollar chokes out of the tube and use a modified or improved cylinder. smile

------------------------------
I am still rather confused. I will watch the video again but I don't think the tester mentioned which choke he was using. Even if the load actually performs that well, I am not convinced that it would be a good coyote load. Why? A pattern the size of a grapefruit would require very precise aiming, and a coyote that stands still long enough to make the shot. May as well carry a rifle I think.


I agree Rich! A 6" pattern in not what I want for shooting coyotes.

I couldn't see what was happening on the patterns in the video at all.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/13 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
A pattern the size of a grapefruit would require very precise aiming, and a coyote that stands still long enough to make the shot. May as well carry a rifle I think.


Flight Control works best with little choke constriction.
The pattern spreads as distance increases.
At long range, the ability to penetrate becomes a limiting factor in killing efficiency.
More mass gives each pellet more potential for deeper penetration.

By using a larger pellet you increase the range that sufficient penetration can be achieved.
By using the Flight Control wad, you increase the distance that sufficient pattern density can be achieved.
The overall result is an increase in the effective range of the platform.

For people wanting to extend their shotgun range beyond traditional limitations, FC seems to be a step in the right direction.

I hope that clears up any confusion.

If you can get 15 rounds off with a rifle in a quarter of a second, on a moving coyote, and achieve a group of this size, for less than $.80, then use a rifle.


Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/13 08:55 AM

Originally Posted By: derbyacresbob
A 6" pattern in not what I want for shooting coyotes.

I couldn't see what was happening on the patterns in the video at all.


The patterns were spreading as the distance increased, just like traditional shot/wad combinations.

The spread take place further down the flight path.

Between poor eyesight and alzheimer's, I have little hope of "un-confusing" any of you old timers. tt2
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/17/13 11:40 AM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: GC
I ain't buying it... I shot the heII out of that load in testing and it didn't perform anything like that.


Get those high dollar chokes out of the tube and use a modified or improved cylinder. smile


LOL... Actually I did. I began my shooting with the factory flush fit chokes and shot the stuff through cylinder, improved cylinder, light modified, modified, improved modified and the full. Modified and Improved Modified were the two best performing constrictions by far for me and were pretty much identical in performance. The nine pellet pattern was about 8" - 10" at 25 yards.
Posted by: I_missed

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/29/13 03:38 AM

motivates me to do some of the same with my sguns. thanx. good stuff
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/29/13 08:15 AM

I see that Black Gold Chokes is offering an extra extra tight turkey choke for the flight control wads. for my browning bps they offer a 660 and 670 choke. that is a restriction of 83% and 73%. Im not so sure Black Gold knows what they are doing.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/29/13 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: 22cat
I see that Black Gold Chokes is offering an extra extra tight turkey choke for the flight control wads. for my browning bps they offer a 660 and 670 choke. that is a restriction of 83% and 73%. Im not so sure Black Gold knows what they are doing.

----------------------------
I agree, but then they are not the only choke company that don't. lol
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/29/13 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: 22cat
I see that Black Gold Chokes is offering an extra extra tight turkey choke for the flight control wads. for my browning bps they offer a 660 and 670 choke. that is a restriction of 83% and 73%. Im not so sure Black Gold knows what they are doing.


What is the bore size of that BPS?
Posted by: RMc

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/30/13 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: remmy1187
Hornady website has the Heavy Magnum Coyote BB. 1.5 oz load of BB loaded in their Versalite wad, which looks like the Flight Control wad, at 1300 FPS. Don't know if it is available yet but looks worthy of a test run.


When Hornady first advertised the Heavy Magnum Coyote round, I noticed there was no mention of buffer. I contacted Hornady and confirmed they do not use buffer in any of their shotshell rounds. The Heavy Magnum Coyote round then depends on a high antimony pellet core, nickel plating for pellet lubricity and the Versatite (Flite-Control) wad for tight patterning.

I have not yet tried this ammunition and so cannot comment on how it patterns.
Posted by: Rich Cronk

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 09/30/13 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66
Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk
A pattern the size of a grapefruit would require very precise aiming, and a coyote that stands still long enough to make the shot. May as well carry a rifle I think.


Flight Control works best with little choke constriction.
The pattern spreads as distance increases.
At long range, the ability to penetrate becomes a limiting factor in killing efficiency.
More mass gives each pellet more potential for deeper penetration.

By using a larger pellet you increase the range that sufficient penetration can be achieved.
By using the Flight Control wad, you increase the distance that sufficient pattern density can be achieved.
The overall result is an increase in the effective range of the platform.

For people wanting to extend their shotgun range beyond traditional limitations, FC seems to be a step in the right direction.

I hope that clears up any confusion.

If you can get 15 rounds off with a rifle in a quarter of a second, on a moving coyote, and achieve a group of this size, for less than $.80, then use a rifle.



-------------------------
At what range did you shoot that pattern? I see that the point of impack was a few inches to the right. This would result in a miss or a wounded coyote running off.
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/01/13 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Rich Cronk

At what range did you shoot that pattern? I see that the point of impack was a few inches to the right. This would result in a miss or a wounded coyote running off.


This was late in the range session and I was flinching a little. It was my error.

The point is that tight patterns of # 1 buck may increase the effective range of a shotgun.

That shot was at 45 yards. I have already posted a dead coyote at 60 yards with the same load. I didn't flinch and the spread and penetration got him.

Obviously in the real world, I am 1 for 1 (shots/kills) with this load.
In your theoretical world I am 0 for 1.


I am past theoretical argument and looking for real world results. If you choose not to participate that's fine by me.

If you want to load up your shotgun and give it a try, then I'd be interested in hearing about your results.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/02/13 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Originally Posted By: 22cat
I see that Black Gold Chokes is offering an extra extra tight turkey choke for the flight control wads. for my browning bps they offer a 660 and 670 choke. that is a restriction of 83% and 73%. Im not so sure Black Gold knows what they are doing.


What is the bore size of that BPS?


I think its "suppose" to be 743 or 742
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/02/13 09:42 PM

Hummm... .072" constriction is an awful lot of choke constriction even for turkey loads. And for coyote stuff loaded with BB or larger it is a whole lot of constriction. The Flite Control wad complicates that even more and if it is tungsten shot - wow.
Posted by: 22cat

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/03/13 06:53 PM

Yup that's why I said I don't think they know what they are doing. but who knows. maybe they know something I don't although I believe it is just one of them gimmick products
Posted by: Wedgy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/13 12:51 PM

This stuff would do the trick better than any factory stuff if you want to do the loading. At 17.5 grams/cc it's way denser than even Federal Heavyweight(15g/cc). Depleted Uranium is 19.1g/cc
The .189" pellets are on sale. For comparison BB shot is .180" and BBB is .190"
http://www.tungsten-spheres.com/inventory.html#shot
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/17/13 03:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Wedgy
This stuff would do the trick better than any factory stuff if you want to do the loading. At 17.5 grams/cc it's way denser than even Federal Heavyweight(15g/cc). Depleted Uranium is 19.1g/cc
The .189" pellets are on sale. For comparison BB shot is .180" and BBB is .190"
http://www.tungsten-spheres.com/inventory.html#shot


That would be over $5.00 per shell just for 1-1/2 oz of shot. At 17.5 g/cc there would not be very many pellets per shell if they are that close to BBB in size. It would be a deadly load though!

The Fedral Heavyweight #2 15g/cc shot works great on coyotes and there is just over 90 pellets per 1-1/2 oz shell.
Posted by: Wedgy

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/24/13 10:09 PM

Derbyacresbob, what kind of range are we talking about with the #2 heavyweight for coyotes ? 90 pellets is quite a pattern. I have used it for geese and it has some impressive kills at long range.
Posted by: derbyacresbob

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 10/25/13 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Wedgy
Derbyacresbob, what kind of range are we talking about with the #2 heavyweight for coyotes ? 90 pellets is quite a pattern. I have used it for geese and it has some impressive kills at long range.


I don't really know for sure past 50 yards, 50 yards and less they work good. Last year I shot a coyote running straight away from me at 30 yards or so and the coyote was dead instantly. When I went to check out the coyote I was was impressed with the Federal Heavyweight #2 shot. The coyote had three exit holes in it's face with brain blood running out of the holes.

Just to give you an idea about the Fed Heavyweight 15g/cc density compared to Rem HD 12g/cc, Rem HD #2s has over 120 pellets in a 1-1/2 oz load and the Fed HW #2 shot has about 90 to 92 pellets per 1-1/2 oz load. These pellets are very heavy for their size.
Posted by: Houser in NC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 11:37 AM


I've read through most of this thread a couple times and haven't seen many responses on how the Heavyweight is performing on critters.

Does anyone have any updates to the Federal Heavyweight and choke combination as to how they perform?

I'm looking around at different chokes to use with the Heavyweight load and have about decided on the Carlson's Sporting Clays Improved Modified. Any opinions?
Posted by: rebelbell24

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 11:54 AM

I just received 100 rounds of the Hornady HM coyote BB shells. I will pattern them with different chokes ASAP and hopefully have some feedback on how they perform.
Posted by: GC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 02:03 PM

Houser,
The constriction is about right but if that is a ported or wad stripping choke it might not be compatible with the Flite Control wad Federal uses. In fact, I would give the factory flush mount chokes a try before springing for an expensive extended choke. And if I did decide to go for an extended choke there are chokes from Kick's, Pure Gold and Indian Creek (and maybe some other companies also) that are expressly designed with the Flite Control wad in mind.
Posted by: Houser in NC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By: GC
Houser,
The constriction is about right but if that is a ported or wad stripping choke it might not be compatible with the Flite Control wad Federal uses. In fact, I would give the factory flush mount chokes a try before springing for an expensive extended choke. And if I did decide to go for an extended choke there are chokes from Kick's, Pure Gold and Indian Creek (and maybe some other companies also) that are expressly designed with the Flite Control wad in mind.


GC,
I had seen where a non ported/non wad stripping choke is recommended for the flite control wads. The Carlson's Sporting Clays choke I was looking at has neither one.
I would try the flush chokes but I don't have any for my 870, all I have are extended turkey chokes. If I can find my son's 1187 chokes I'll try them first.

Thanks
Posted by: BBK

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 03:36 PM

Carlson's makes a great choke! Check ebay, they are usually very cheap on there brand new. I've bought several for my 1187 and benelli's and they were all right around $30-$35 including shipping, brand new in the package.
Posted by: Houser in NC

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: BBK
Carlson's makes a great choke! Check ebay, they are usually very cheap on there brand new. I've bought several for my 1187 and benelli's and they were all right around $30-$35 including shipping, brand new in the package.


Thanks. ebay had the cheapest I could find and they were $38 for the bright finish. Didn't see any blue/black on there.
Posted by: BBK

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 05:06 PM

Its waterfowl season! They are very popular for us duck hunters. If you hit it just right (after waterfowl season and before spring trap/clays) you will be able to pick up chokes real cheap.

You might want to take a look at this one if you ever want a good choke for when you are not shooting flight control or hornady's version of that wad. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CARLSONS-12-GA-E...=item20dae76f25
Posted by: CrazyHorse66

Re: NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy... - 12/06/13 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Houser in NC

I've read through most of this thread a couple times and haven't seen many responses on how the Heavyweight is performing on critters.

Does anyone have any updates to the Federal Heavyweight and choke combination as to how they perform?

I'm looking around at different chokes to use with the Heavyweight load and have about decided on the Carlson's Sporting Clays Improved Modified. Any opinions?

This was a 52 yd pattern through a modified RemChoke.
The purple coffee can lid is 6".
My POI was a little high.


I had pellets pass through this kitty @ 30 yds. DRT.


I had good results on a number of coyotes out to 50 yds.
One thing was clear- this load requires less follow up shots to put them down and keep them there.
I hit this one inside 20 yds and the Flight Control wad stuck in his neck.


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